Greatest Team to Never Win a Ring (Renewed): '18 Houston vs. '92 Utah

[pandrade83]

This is a voting based tournament to determine who was the GOAT team to not win a title. The original thread for this is

here

Each player will be considered to be as dominant against his opponents as he was the year that he played (ie. if you are just going to say the more modern team wins, don't bother to participate). And EACH MATCHUP WILL FEATURE THE RULES, REFEREES, AND EQUIPMENT OF THE OLDER TEAM. This doesn't mean that Steph Curry will be called for carrying each time he tries to dribble, just assume that his handle is proportionately as good relative to the era as it is relative to his own. So, in 65, if you think he has the best handle in today's league, you can assume he has the best handle of that era; if he's roughly average for starting PGs of today's league in terms of that one aspect, you can assume he is roughly average for starting PGs of that era. This hopefully will eliminate a bit of the recency bias. Health is as it was at the close of the Regular Season; perhaps a team didn't win because of injury.

One last thing. VOTES WITHOUT ANALYSIS (or with what in my personal subject opinion is stupid analysis) WONT BE COUNTED. (Lots of capital letters!) I will list results here. Each thread will be open until it slips to page 2 of the board.

'18 Houston (has HCA) 65-17, +6.1 Offense, -2.5 Defense lost in WCF to GSW in 7
Capela
R. Anderson
Ariza
Harden
C. Paul

E. Gordon
PJ Tucker
Mbah a Moute

'92 Utah 55-27, +4.0 Offense, -2.6 Defense lost in WCF to Portland in 6
Eaton
K. Malone
B. Edwards
J. Malone
Stockton

Benoit
Corbin
M. Brown

[pandrade83]

From a Houston perspective, they can play Eaton right off the court, which is part of the reason why their defense was as strong as it was; I consider Eaton basically unplayable. This hurts Utah defensively & I don't think the replacements off the bench do enough to give them enough offensive output to help the defense.

The rule changes mean that people are going to be isolated on Harden/Paul & the Rockets can play 5 out pretty easily. Now, Utah can be more physical with the Houston players than people could in era which helps some - & Stockton is a very good feisty defender, but I see the Rockets playing the matchup hunting game such that Stockton never gets a chance to be involved. I envision a lot of targeting Jeff Malone, or Eaton/M. Brown & I don't think Utah has a clear cut way to stop it.

At the other end, I assume that the older team has a chance to see the style of the newer team & I would expect Stockton, J Malone & Edwards to shoot more 3's - Stockton was a proficient 3 point shooter in era, J. Malone shot 90% from the foul line which should translate & Edwards hit 38%.

If you're willing to make the leap of faith, than Utah has a trio of 3 point shooters of their own to combat Houston & K. Malone should just be a hammer on the inside - I don't think Houston can stop him from running roughshod over them.

However, Utah's ultimate downfall wasn't their offense - they had an ORTG of 113 against Portland when they went down - it was their defense. Portland rendered Eaton worthless & Utah couldn't stop the Blazers' backcourt/wings from scoring. I think they have the same problem here, only amplified. The only shot I think Utah has is if you assume Paul is getting hurt.

I take Rockets in 5 or 6.

[Arteezy]

And EACH MATCHUP WILL FEATURE THE RULES, REFEREES, AND EQUIPMENT OF THE OLDER TEAM

Harden 6 ppg series.

[pandrade83]

And EACH MATCHUP WILL FEATURE THE RULES, REFEREES, AND EQUIPMENT OF THE OLDER TEAM

Harden 6 ppg series.

I interpret this as a vote for Utah.

[trex_8063]

'92 rules still has a 3pt line, and I consequently I think [as pandrade83 mentioned] that they can essentially make Eaton unplayable (at least '92 Eaton; earlier versions of Eaton were slightly more "fleet of foot" [can't believe I just used that word in association with Mark Eaton ], but by '92 he was awfully damn slow). I think they'll be forced to play a lot of Mike Brown a C, and that leaves them without a rim protector (and I don't think he can adequately cover Capella on the roll, either).

I still think Harden is going to have a bit of a hard time with a somewhat more liberal amount of hand-checking allowed [though I think he'll get his share of "superstar calls"], and the likely tighter whistle on travels. (Though otoh, I don't think Utah has all that great of perimeter defensive options for him; Ty Corbin's probably their best bet.)

Nonetheless, I feel Houston is simply the more talented team. I personally think one can make the case that the '18 Rockets were the greatest team to not win a ring (possible exceptions for me [off the top of my head] might be the '72 Bucks or the '73 Lakers). But come on: this team won 65 games and had a +8.21 SRS, and took an utterly loaded Warriors team to 7 games and may have won if not for Chris Paul missing two games. All the pressure was on the Warriors, but the Rockets were a legit "superteam" in their own right.

I look at a "big three" of Harden/Paul/Capella, and then a supporting cast that included Eric Gordon, Trevor Ariza, PJ Tucker, Ryan Anderson, Gerald Green, Luc Mbah a Moute, and aging/ancient Nene Hilario and Joe Johnson......they're just so much better than Utah at 3-11 and have a variety of looks they can give Utah with that depth. Plus they have HCA.

It'll certainly be competitive, but give me the '18 Rockets in 6 or 7 games.

[pandrade83]

'92 rules still has a 3pt line, and I consequently I think [as pandrade83 mentioned] that they can essentially make Eaton unplayable (at least '92 Eaton; earlier versions of Eaton were slightly more "fleet of foot" [can't believe I just used that word in association with Mark Eaton ], but by '92 he was awfully damn slow). I think they'll be forced to play a lot of Mike Brown a C, and that leaves them without a rim protector (and I don't think he can adequately cover Capella on the roll, either).

I still think Harden is going to have a bit of a hard time with a somewhat more liberal amount of hand-checking allowed [though I think he'll get his share of "superstar calls"], and the likely tighter whistle on travels. (Though otoh, I don't think Utah has all that great of perimeter defensive options for him; Ty Corbin's probably their best bet.)

Nonetheless, I feel Houston is simply the more talented team. I personally think one can make the case that the '18 Rockets were the greatest team to not win a ring (possible exceptions for me [off the top of my head] might be the '72 Bucks or the '73 Lakers). But come on: this team won 65 games and had a +8.21 SRS, and took an utterly loaded Warriors team to 7 games and may have won if not for Chris Paul missing two games. All the pressure was on the Warriors, but the Rockets were a legit "superteam" in their own right.

I look at a "big three" of Harden/Paul/Capella, and then a supporting cast that included Eric Gordon, Trevor Ariza, PJ Tucker, Ryan Anderson, Gerald Green, Luc Mbah a Moute, and aging/ancient Nene Hilario and Joe Johnson......they're just so much better than Utah at 3-11 and have a variety of looks they can give Utah with that depth. Plus they have HCA.

It'll certainly be competitive, but give me the '18 Rockets in 6 or 7 games.

I think there's enough Harden hate on the board that as long as they play teams from more physical eras, Houston won't win this tournament. That being said, the Rockets are on my short list to win this tournament.

[70sFan]

'92 rules still has a 3pt line, and I consequently I think [as pandrade83 mentioned] that they can essentially make Eaton unplayable (at least '92 Eaton; earlier versions of Eaton were slightly more "fleet of foot" [can't believe I just used that word in association with Mark Eaton ], but by '92 he was awfully damn slow). I think they'll be forced to play a lot of Mike Brown a C, and that leaves them without a rim protector (and I don't think he can adequately cover Capella on the roll, either).

I still think Harden is going to have a bit of a hard time with a somewhat more liberal amount of hand-checking allowed [though I think he'll get his share of "superstar calls"], and the likely tighter whistle on travels. (Though otoh, I don't think Utah has all that great of perimeter defensive options for him; Ty Corbin's probably their best bet.)

Nonetheless, I feel Houston is simply the more talented team. I personally think one can make the case that the '18 Rockets were the greatest team to not win a ring (possible exceptions for me [off the top of my head] might be the '72 Bucks or the '73 Lakers). But come on: this team won 65 games and had a +8.21 SRS, and took an utterly loaded Warriors team to 7 games and may have won if not for Chris Paul missing two games. All the pressure was on the Warriors, but the Rockets were a legit "superteam" in their own right.

I look at a "big three" of Harden/Paul/Capella, and then a supporting cast that included Eric Gordon, Trevor Ariza, PJ Tucker, Ryan Anderson, Gerald Green, Luc Mbah a Moute, and aging/ancient Nene Hilario and Joe Johnson......they're just so much better than Utah at 3-11 and have a variety of looks they can give Utah with that depth. Plus they have HCA.

It'll certainly be competitive, but give me the '18 Rockets in 6 or 7 games.

Can't say it better. Give me Rockets in 6, though Stockton vs Paul would be a joy to watch.

[NinjaSheppard]

I don't think I can list 10 teams in the history of basketball that I'd take over the 2018 Rockets.

[OdomFan]

Jazz in 6. They have a decent enough roster to be able to challenge anything the Rockets draw up against them. Stockton, Jeff Malone and Blue Edwards ready to switch up on Harden and CP3. Mark Eaton and Malone in the paint. Yeah.

[ShotCreator]

Jazz in 6. They have a decent enough roster to be able to challenge anything the Rockets draw up against them. Stockton, Jeff Malone and Blue Edwards ready to switch up on Harden and CP3. Mark Eaton and Malone in the paint. Yeah.

If only they couldve done that to Porter and Drexler.

[Lou Fan]

I wrote like 3 paragraphs about why I thought the Rockets would win and then RealGM crashed and now I'm too frustrated to do it again. The gist of it was I don't like the matchup of Jazz bigs versus the Rockets as I think their lack of mobility would be exposed and I like the Rockets depth better. Rockets in 5.

[penbeast0]

I thought trex and pandrade covered it pretty well. I would like to add that although I am think Stockton is a top 5 PG alltime, I don't think he is big enough or strong enough to cover Harden, nor is Jeff Malone. Edwards and Corbin at least could not get run over by him but I don't think they stop him and, with the illegal defense rules plus Chris Paul and Eric Gordon to keep Stockton from helping out, I see Harden having more of an advantage than Karl Malone.

[pandrade83]

I thought trex and pandrade covered it pretty well. I would like to add that although I am think Stockton is a top 5 PG alltime, I don't think he is big enough or strong enough to cover Harden, nor is Jeff Malone. Edwards and Corbin at least could not get run over by him but I don't think they stop him and, with the illegal defense rules plus Chris Paul and Eric Gordon to keep Stockton from helping out, I see Harden having more of an advantage than Karl Malone.

I don't think the Jazz would try to have Stockton cover Harden to begin with - I think they'd put him on Paul, but the Rockets would p&r out of the matchup on Paul Isos anyway to get Paul covered by an easier target.

[giberish]

This really feels like an easy win for Houston. Maybe they loose an early game picking up 28 T's complaining about all the uncalled fouls on Utah but there's a major overall quality advantage for Houston.

The problem for Utah is that Jeff Malone, Edwards and Eaton just aren't good players. The team won 55 games because Stockton and Malone were all-time greats playing all 82 games hard. Houston got to 65 wins with more load-management for their stars enabling them to raise their play for the playoffs.

Utah took few 3's - even for their era. Stockton was really their only 3-point threat. It would be easier for Houston to stop a Stockton/Malone P&R then for Utah to stop a Harden/Capella (or Paul/Capella) P&R just because defensively you can help off of J Malone and Edwards (and completely ignore Eaton) and pack the lane with impunity. Even with the different hand-checking rules of the time Utah would struggle to cover a Houston P&R 2 on 2. A switch would leave a Utah big in a bad spot (Karl Malone would have the best chance there but this could also put him in foul trouble). Aggressive help leaves Houston with open 3's - while Utah is taking long-2s with the lane clogged.

I'd figure Houston in 5.

[JordansBulls]

Jazz in 5. Rockets would have no answer for Malone. Also CP3 would be soo frustrated playing against Stockton that he would get ejected a few games.

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

I sort of like the 55 win 1990 Jazz with Younger Eaton, Thurl Bailey, Griffith and Hansen better than the 55 win 1992 Jazz. But the 1990 Jazz got beaten by a 54 win Suns team full of shooters. Rockets are an even better shooting team than those Suns. Rockets are a top 5 of all time shooting team and their competition is other Rocket teams and the Warriors.

Nobody uses a true zone. If the Jazz were coming forward in time I might have them play a true zone with Eaton.

Rules are that the Rockets go back. Whiny soft modern guys vs the thugiest play style era. I am not talking about what John Brisker might do to Harden. John Brisker and the 1970s fights was a different kind of thuggy.

Rockets have more talent. Let them be adjusted to the play style and the Rockets win.

2018 Rockets beat the 1992 Jazz

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

This really feels like an easy win for Houston. Maybe they loose an early game picking up 28 T's complaining about all the uncalled fouls on Utah but there's a major overall quality advantage for Houston.

The problem for Utah is that Jeff Malone, Edwards and Eaton just aren't good players. The team won 55 games because Stockton and Malone were all-time greats playing all 82 games hard. Houston got to 65 wins with more load-management for their stars enabling them to raise their play for the playoffs.

.

The Rockets struggle to adjust to current playoff refereeing. But fixatating on adjumentbto era problems seems to violate the spirit of this project. The project also says don't just say the modern team wins. I not a beiliever in the supremacy of modern players except when it comes to 3 point shooting. 3 point shooting is huge therefore the modern team always wins.

How great was the non champion compared to their era? You can't ride 2 horses but I think we are trying to ride 2 horses in this project. Greatness for the era and cross era playoff. You can't actually do that. Luckly 2018 Rockets win both greatness for era and cross era playoff vs the 1992 Jazz.

But you said a few things that seem wrong.
You said Rockets win easy. Adjument to the other era probably requires more than 7 games.

You trashed Edwards, Jeff Malone and Eaton.. No real Problem with trashing Edwards. He was athletic enough but his skills were not very good. Jeff Malone is undersized, nothing special athletically, and should have been a 3 point shooter but he was highly skilled and woul still be very good today despite his flaws. Saying Jeff Malone is nothing is wrong. This is fading Mark Eaton but don't get get confused by Eaton's slow feet and how he looked, Eaton was a very effective player in his era. The modern 3 point shooting and the desire to switch pick and rolls at the 3 point line hurts Eaton but you are probably underestimating the impact of Eaton.

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

From a Houston perspective, they can play Eaton right off the court, which is part of the reason why their defense was as strong as it was; I consider Eaton basically unplayable. This hurts Utah defensively

There was a recent regular season game between the Warriors and Rockets. Still recovering from his injury Cousins had been struggling with pick and roll defense. The Majority of Warrior fans assumed that Cousins would be unplayable vs the Rockets.

Now Cousins is not Mark Eaton. Cousins has been unafraid to dominate people with his strength since high school. Many big men are not entirely comfortable with their strength advantage.

Anyway Cousins revealed that Capella and the Rockets have a vulnerability vs strength. Cousins for at least one game wore Capella out and turned Capella into a liability.

Eaton could push Capella arround but that does not mean that Eaton would push Capella arround. We think blocks with Eaton but vs the Rockets Eaton needs to get offensive boards. Capella is not strong enough to box Eaton out. But if Eaton has Capella in the paint then the paint is getting clogged for Malone and Stockton.

Eaton needs to sag off of Capella and defend the guards drive not defend the shot off the switch. Maybe Play Harden from behind like the Jazz did. Let Harden drive on the sagging Eaton because that plays to Eaton's strength. Let the Rockets beg for illegal defense calls on Eaton.

Eaton was good at avoiding contact with guards and Harden and Paul will not get touch fouls in 1992 playoffs.

The Jazz playing from behind trick might be something we will see more of. Keep the shot blockers in shot blocking position and keep them out of pick and role defense. Play from behind and stop the 3. Concede the pull up mid to long 2s.

[giberish]

This really feels like an easy win for Houston. Maybe they loose an early game picking up 28 T's complaining about all the uncalled fouls on Utah but there's a major overall quality advantage for Houston.

The problem for Utah is that Jeff Malone, Edwards and Eaton just aren't good players. The team won 55 games because Stockton and Malone were all-time greats playing all 82 games hard. Houston got to 65 wins with more load-management for their stars enabling them to raise their play for the playoffs.

.

The Rockets struggle to adjust to current playoff refereeing. But fixatating on adjumentbto era problems seems to violate the spirit of this project. The project also says don't just say the modern team wins. I not a beiliever in the supremacy of modern players except when it comes to 3 point shooting. 3 point shooting is huge therefore the modern team always wins.

How great was the non champion compared to their era? You can't ride 2 horses but I think we are trying to ride 2 horses in this project. Greatness for the era and cross era playoff. You can't actually do that. Luckly 2018 Rockets win both greatness for era and cross era playoff vs the 1992 Jazz.

But you said a few things that seem wrong.
You said Rockets win easy. Adjument to the other era probably requires more than 7 games.

You trashed Edwards, Jeff Malone and Eaton.. No real Problem with trashing Edwards. He was athletic enough but his skills were not very good. Jeff Malone is undersized, nothing special athletically, and should have been a 3 point shooter but he was highly skilled and would still be very good today despite his flaws. Saying Jeff Malone is nothing is wrong. This is fading Mark Eaton but don't get get confused by Eaton's slow feet and how he looked, Eaton was a very effective player in his era. The modern 3 point shooting and the desire to switch pick and rolls at the 3 point line hurts Eaton but you are probably underestimating the impact of Eaton.

Eaton was effective when he could stay around the basket on defense. Against a low-post center he was a very good defender (completely irrelevant against Houston). Against a big stiff who would stay near the rim on offense he could clog the lane/protect the rim at a high level (mostly irrelevant against Houston). But he was mostly Boban with no offensive skill. If forced to defend away form the rim he was a liability - and he was always a liability on offense.
Jeff Malone worked hard to get off long 2's. Maybe he should have been a 3-point threat but he didn't take them (either through his range sharply dropping off or Sloan's lack of interest in 3's). He had decent PPG numbers with Utah because someone else had to take shots (Stockton was never a high-volume scorer, Edwards was meh and Eaton wasn't even a good 5th option) but he wasn't really helping much on O and was a weak defender.

Overall Utah's big-2 would have a slight quality edge over Houston's (Paul due to age being the weakest option but still quite good), but Gordan/Capella/Tucker/Ariza would be the 4 next best players in the series. Utah's non-stars included a lot of guys that offenses could target and defenses could easily help off of. They got credit at the time for being starters on a regular playoff team but they were holding Stockton and Malone back.

[pandrade83]

This really feels like an easy win for Houston. Maybe they loose an early game picking up 28 T's complaining about all the uncalled fouls on Utah but there's a major overall quality advantage for Houston.

The problem for Utah is that Jeff Malone, Edwards and Eaton just aren't good players. The team won 55 games because Stockton and Malone were all-time greats playing all 82 games hard. Houston got to 65 wins with more load-management for their stars enabling them to raise their play for the playoffs.

.

The Rockets struggle to adjust to current playoff refereeing. But fixatating on adjumentbto era problems seems to violate the spirit of this project. The project also says don't just say the modern team wins. I not a beiliever in the supremacy of modern players except when it comes to 3 point shooting. 3 point shooting is huge therefore the modern team always wins.

A couple notes:

1) People interpret that differently. Samurai capped the amount of 3PA he thought a team would take in the GOAT tournament. I assume that the older team would be able to watch the newer team play & noted that I think the Jazz have 3 guys who would be 3 point shooters who were either good at it or had excellent FT%'s which translate to effective 3 point shooting.
2) As noted by Pen in the GOAT project, this was done to explicitly avoid recency bias.
3) Rightly or wrongly, some have thought that Harden would struggle in an earlier era due to stricter traveling rules and more allowed contact. I do think there are teams in this tournament where this would be a real problem. The Jazz are not one.