Pascal Siakam Megathread - All Siakam-centric topics will be merged into this one

[Joker]

The bolded part. What are you insinuating?

Ugh, if I even dreamed it was that sentence I wouldn't have bothered to look up on the web version.

The point is that one's level of confidence on Siakam's stated aged must be tempered. Age fabrication is endemic in African sports camps/teams/schools/etc. There's plenty of hard data in that - just look at FIFA tests on U-17 teams; besides an abundance of testimony and circumstantial evidence. I've known Siakam for a long time. Actually, just read these comments:
viewtopic.php?p=74439205#p74439205

As you can imagine, I'm pretty comfortable with my views on Siakam, especially compared with those of any Raptors fans.

If you're one of those emotional people who struggles with coping with more unpleasant information, I don't know, just find a way of dealing with it. I don't care about any of that. I'll just keep saying whatever I believe it's relevant to say, regardless of how you feel about it.

weird to resort to racist cliches when Siakam's growth curve seems age defying even for his 24yrs, let alone an even older player.

yeah, the fraudulent age card doesn't really work when the player is showing more season-to-season and month-to-month development/growth than guys in the league who are 19-21.

[everdiso]

Ugh, if I even dreamed it was that sentence I wouldn't have bothered to look up on the web version.

The point is that one's level of confidence on Siakam's stated aged must be tempered. Age fabrication is endemic in African sports camps/teams/schools/etc. There's plenty of hard data in that - just look at FIFA tests on U-17 teams; besides an abundance of testimony and circumstantial evidence. I've known Siakam for a long time. Actually, just read these comments:
viewtopic.php?p=74439205#p74439205

As you can imagine, I'm pretty comfortable with my views on Siakam, especially compared with those of any Raptors fans.

If you're one of those emotional people who struggles with coping with more unpleasant information, I don't know, just find a way of dealing with it. I don't care about any of that. I'll just keep saying whatever I believe it's relevant to say, regardless of how you feel about it.

weird to resort to racist cliches when Siakam's growth curve seems age defying even for his 24yrs, let alone an even older player.

Yeah, I'm the guy who has known Siakam since he's been in the US and followed him in prep school but you're the guy who's going to teach me anything about his "growth curve". How about this: we compare our takes on Siakam from the past and see who was closer to correct?

As for the idea that well established (unfortunate) facts are "racist clichés", I don't have time for craziness. I'll let know the people who are actually putting work to sort out that issue that there's some teen in America who thinks it's just "racist clichés" and their lives are a waste.

hey if you want to baselessly diminish a player based on your racist cliche, that's up to you.

even if it makes absolutely no sense in light of his late breaking career arc.

[Novocaine]

yeah, the fraudulent age card doesn't really work when the player is showing more season-to-season and month-to-month development/growth than guys in the league who are 19-21.

weird to resort to racist cliches when Siakam's growth curve seems age defying even for his 24yrs, let alone an even older player.

Yeah, I'm the guy who has known Siakam since he's been in the US and followed him in prep school but you're the guy who's going to teach me anything about his "growth curve". How about this: we compare our takes on Siakam from the past and see who was closer to correct?

As for the idea that well established (unfortunate) facts are "racist clichés", I don't have time for craziness. I'll let know the people who are actually putting work to sort out that issue that there's some teen in America who thinks it's just "racist clichés" and their lives are a waste.

hey if you want to baselessly diminish a player based on your racist cliche, that's up to you.

even if it makes absolutely no sense in light of his late breaking career arc.

Again, I was the person right about Siakam. Not you. It was me. That's why your fellow Raptors fans were calling me "genius". Like literally.

And this isn't diminishing a player or, what was it, "playhign the fraudulent age card", whatever the hell that menas. I don't do any of that. I'm not you. I don't even root for a team.


I make my assessment of players, and deal strictly with facts. That one is relevant to the case. That's all there is to it. So take the craziness somewhere else.

[everdiso]

yeah, the fraudulent age card doesn't really work when the player is showing more season-to-season and month-to-month development/growth than guys in the league who are 19-21.

Yeah, I'm the guy who has known Siakam since he's been in the US and followed him in prep school but you're the guy who's going to teach me anything about his "growth curve". How about this: we compare our takes on Siakam from the past and see who was closer to correct?

As for the idea that well established (unfortunate) facts are "racist clichés", I don't have time for craziness. I'll let know the people who are actually putting work to sort out that issue that there's some teen in America who thinks it's just "racist clichés" and their lives are a waste.

hey if you want to baselessly diminish a player based on your racist cliche, that's up to you.

even if it makes absolutely no sense in light of his late breaking career arc.

Again, I was the person right about Siakam. Not you. It was me. That's why your fellow Raptors fans were calling me "genius". Like literally.

And this isn't diminishing a player or, what was it, "playhign the fraudulent age card", whatever the hell that menas. I don't do any of that. I'm not you. I don't even root for a team.

I make my assessment of players, and deal strictly with facts. That one is relevant to the case. That's all there is to it. So take the craziness somewhere else.

you obviously aren't dealing strictly with facts.

you are literally bringing in a non-fact into the discussion to baselessly diminish a player.

that non-fact that you, Mr.Facts, is relying on, also happens to be a heavily racially loaded cliche, and makes pretty much no sense at all in relation to this particular player and his aging curve.

[Novocaine]

yeah, the fraudulent age card doesn't really work when the player is showing more season-to-season and month-to-month development/growth than guys in the league who are 19-21.

hey if you want to baselessly diminish a player based on your racist cliche, that's up to you.

even if it makes absolutely no sense in light of his late breaking career arc.

Again, I was the person right about Siakam. Not you. It was me. That's why your fellow Raptors fans were calling me "genius". Like literally.

And this isn't diminishing a player or, what was it, "playhign the fraudulent age card", whatever the hell that menas. I don't do any of that. I'm not you. I don't even root for a team.

I make my assessment of players, and deal strictly with facts. That one is relevant to the case. That's all there is to it. So take the craziness somewhere else.

you obviously aren't dealing strictly with facts.

you are literally bringing in a non-fact into the discussion to baselessly diminish a player.

that non-fact that you, Mr.Facts, is relying on, also happens to be heavily racially loaded, and makes pretty much no sense at all in relation to this particular player and his aging curve.

It is indeed a fact - age fraud in young African athletes being a problem is such a "racist cliche" that the largest international governing bodies created programs to address it. I suppose in your mind they're just racists.

This is as racially loaded as pointing out other problems in sub-saharian Africa. As I said there are people actually trying to solve or mitigate this problem; unfortunately some unhinged kids in north-America calling them racism doesn't really contribute to that. This has nothing to do with race - it has to do with a break down of institutions that is more common in Africa as of now but not exclusive. Then it's just individuals reacting to incentives - black, white, yellow, doesn't matter, everyone reacts the same way.

Anyway, considering I've been right about Siakam and you've been wrong, I think we can safely close this discussion until you manage to make comments on basketball issues besides shrieking racism and I'll just report those to the moderators.

As I said, I'll say what I find relevant and you'll deal with it.

[everdiso]

Again, I was the person right about Siakam. Not you. It was me. That's why your fellow Raptors fans were calling me "genius". Like literally.

And this isn't diminishing a player or, what was it, "playhign the fraudulent age card", whatever the hell that menas. I don't do any of that. I'm not you. I don't even root for a team.

I make my assessment of players, and deal strictly with facts. That one is relevant to the case. That's all there is to it. So take the craziness somewhere else.

you obviously aren't dealing strictly with facts.

you are literally bringing in a non-fact into the discussion to baselessly diminish a player.

that non-fact that you, Mr.Facts, is relying on, also happens to be heavily racially loaded, and makes pretty much no sense at all in relation to this particular player and his aging curve.

It is indeed a fact - age fraud in young African athletes being a problem is such a "racist cliche" that the largest international governing bodies created programs to address it. I suppose in your mind they're just racists.

This is as racially loaded as pointing out other problems in sub-saharian Africa. As I said there are people actually trying to solve or mitigate this problem; unfortunately some unhinged kids in north-America calling them racism doesn't really contribute to that. This has nothing to do with race - it has to do with a break down of institutions that is more common in Africa as of now but not exclusive. Then it's just individuals reacting to incentives - black, white, yellow, doesn't matter, everyone reacts the same way.

Anyway, considering I've been right about Siakam and you've been wrong, I think we can safely close this discussion until you manage to make comments on basketball issues besides shrieking racism and I'll just report those to the moderators.

As I said, I'll say what I find relevant and you'll deal with it.

No matter how many times you repeat it, it is not a "fact" that we should in any way doubt Siakam's listed age.

The only fact here is that you cast a baseless aspersion on a player, based on nothing more than a racist cliche.

There is no reason to bring it up, and it doesn't even make sense in relation to his aging curve.

Despite your self-aggrandizing claims, you clearly don't actually deal strictly in facts.

[Joker]

Again, I was the person right about Siakam. Not you. It was me. That's why your fellow Raptors fans were calling me "genius". Like literally.

And this isn't diminishing a player or, what was it, "playhign the fraudulent age card", whatever the hell that menas. I don't do any of that. I'm not you. I don't even root for a team.

I make my assessment of players, and deal strictly with facts. That one is relevant to the case. That's all there is to it. So take the craziness somewhere else.

you obviously aren't dealing strictly with facts.

you are literally bringing in a non-fact into the discussion to baselessly diminish a player.

that non-fact that you, Mr.Facts, is relying on, also happens to be heavily racially loaded, and makes pretty much no sense at all in relation to this particular player and his aging curve.

It is indeed a fact - age fraud in young African athletes being a problem is such a "racist cliche" that the largest international governing bodies created programs to address it. I suppose in your mind they're just racists.

This is as racially loaded as pointing out other problems in sub-saharian Africa. As I said there are people actually trying to solve or mitigate this problem; unfortunately some unhinged kids in north-America calling them racism doesn't really contribute to that. This has nothing to do with race - it has to do with a break down of institutions that is more common in Africa as of now but not exclusive. Then it's just individuals reacting to incentives - black, white, yellow, doesn't matter, everyone reacts the same way.

Anyway, considering I've been right about Siakam and you've been wrong, I think we can safely close this discussion until you manage to make comments on basketball issues besides shrieking racism and I'll just report those to the moderators.

As I said, I'll say what I find relevant and you'll deal with it.

A "fact" that is "relevant to the case" of course doesn't mean that it's a fact about Pascal individually. Agreed?

[Novocaine]

you obviously aren't dealing strictly with facts.

you are literally bringing in a non-fact into the discussion to baselessly diminish a player.

that non-fact that you, Mr.Facts, is relying on, also happens to be heavily racially loaded, and makes pretty much no sense at all in relation to this particular player and his aging curve.

It is indeed a fact - age fraud in young African athletes being a problem is such a "racist cliche" that the largest international governing bodies created programs to address it. I suppose in your mind they're just racists.

This is as racially loaded as pointing out other problems in sub-saharian Africa. As I said there are people actually trying to solve or mitigate this problem; unfortunately some unhinged kids in north-America calling them racism doesn't really contribute to that. This has nothing to do with race - it has to do with a break down of institutions that is more common in Africa as of now but not exclusive. Then it's just individuals reacting to incentives - black, white, yellow, doesn't matter, everyone reacts the same way.

Anyway, considering I've been right about Siakam and you've been wrong, I think we can safely close this discussion until you manage to make comments on basketball issues besides shrieking racism and I'll just report those to the moderators.

As I said, I'll say what I find relevant and you'll deal with it.

A "fact" that is "relevant to the case" of course doesn't mean that it's a fact about Pascal individually. Agreed?

I'll answers yours, so I'm sure you'll answer mine:

Do you agree that considering my posting history on Siakam, only a mentally ill person would think I have ny sort of personal animus against Siakam? Agreed?

I'm not emotional. This isn't personal. It's an element that must be considered because, as I said, it's pretty endemic. It's a fact that Siakam was recruited in an environment, that I know well, where age fraud is common. So without being able to be sure of what is the case for each individual player, we must consider it for all. Again, if this troubles you at some emotional level, just leave it out of your own reasonings. It's not like I'm forcing that element on anyone, it was just a sentence in a lot I've written about Siakam. But have the same courtesy of allowing others to consider that element in theirs. As I said, my opinions on Siakam have been much better than those of Raptors fans, so I stand for everything I've written. And I'm happy to engage in disagreements, but serious disagreements, not deranged cries of racism.

[everdiso]

It is indeed a fact - age fraud in young African athletes being a problem is such a "racist cliche" that the largest international governing bodies created programs to address it. I suppose in your mind they're just racists.

This is as racially loaded as pointing out other problems in sub-saharian Africa. As I said there are people actually trying to solve or mitigate this problem; unfortunately some unhinged kids in north-America calling them racism doesn't really contribute to that. This has nothing to do with race - it has to do with a break down of institutions that is more common in Africa as of now but not exclusive. Then it's just individuals reacting to incentives - black, white, yellow, doesn't matter, everyone reacts the same way.

Anyway, considering I've been right about Siakam and you've been wrong, I think we can safely close this discussion until you manage to make comments on basketball issues besides shrieking racism and I'll just report those to the moderators.

As I said, I'll say what I find relevant and you'll deal with it.

A "fact" that is "relevant to the case" of course doesn't mean that it's a fact about Pascal individually. Agreed?

I'll answers yours, so I'm sure you'll answer mine:

Do you agree that considering my posting history on Siakam, only a mentally ill person would think I have ny sort of personal animus against Siakam? Agreed?

I'm not emotional. This isn't personal. It's an element that must be considered because, as I said, it's pretty endemic. It's a fact that Siakam was recruited in an environment, that I know well, where age fraud is common. So without being able to be sure of what is the case for each individual player, we must consider it for all. Again, if this troubles you at some emotional level, just leave it out of your own reasonings. It's not like I'm forcing that element on anyone, it was just a sentence in a lot I've written about Siakam. But have the same courtesy of allowing others to consider that element in theirs. As I said, my opinions on Siakam have been much better than those of Raptors fans, so I stand for everything I've written. And I'm happy to engage in disagreements, but serious disagreements, not deranged cries of racism.

PEDs are also endemic in sports.

Why didn't you bring that up in your analysis?

PEDs are actually something that might make sense in relation to his unusual development curve.

Whereas seeing this kind of development from what - a 26 yr old? 27 yr old ?- would be 100% unprecedented and would make Siakam the most unusual basketball player in history.

[Raps in 4]

It is indeed a fact - age fraud in young African athletes being a problem is such a "racist cliche" that the largest international governing bodies created programs to address it. I suppose in your mind they're just racists.

This is as racially loaded as pointing out other problems in sub-saharian Africa. As I said there are people actually trying to solve or mitigate this problem; unfortunately some unhinged kids in north-America calling them racism doesn't really contribute to that. This has nothing to do with race - it has to do with a break down of institutions that is more common in Africa as of now but not exclusive. Then it's just individuals reacting to incentives - black, white, yellow, doesn't matter, everyone reacts the same way.

Anyway, considering I've been right about Siakam and you've been wrong, I think we can safely close this discussion until you manage to make comments on basketball issues besides shrieking racism and I'll just report those to the moderators.

As I said, I'll say what I find relevant and you'll deal with it.

A "fact" that is "relevant to the case" of course doesn't mean that it's a fact about Pascal individually. Agreed?

I'll answers yours, so I'm sure you'll answer mine:

Do you agree that considering my posting history on Siakam, only a mentally ill person would think I have ny sort of personal animus against Siakam? Agreed?

I'm not emotional. This isn't personal. It's an element that must be considered because, as I said, it's pretty endemic. It's a fact that Siakam was recruited in an environment, that I know well, where age fraud is common. So without being able to be sure of what is the case for each individual player, we must consider it for all. Again, if this troubles you at some emotional level, just leave it out of your own reasonings. It's not like I'm forcing that element on anyone, it was just a sentence in a lot I've written about Siakam. But have the same courtesy of allowing others to consider that element in theirs. As I said, my opinions on Siakam have been much better than those of Raptors fans, so I stand for everything I've written. And I'm happy to engage in disagreements, but serious disagreements, not deranged cries of racism.

"Africans frequently lie about their age"

"I'm not racist"

[DoItALL9]

Fairly rated generally, but talked about so much you'd think he was a superstar. It makes him feel overrated but he's not. Maybe overhyped, nuanced but distinct differences.

I think the constant chatter will turn some against him.

AL Horford and Gordon Hayward receive very similar praise imo.

Are any of the above that much more vital to their team than CJ McCollum? They're seemingly talked about 3x as much.

Sent from my LG-H872 using RealGM mobile app

[Raps in 4]

Always rated Siakam, always knew he was gonna be a player since his prep school days. He's even better than I predicted and I was predicting him to be good - always thought he was going to be an elite defender, and a high-level offensive roleplayer, but his shot-creation and playmaking have become very solid. He's at least 25 years old, so I don't expect the same degree of improvement moving forward, but I can see him being an occasional All-Star and a regular All-D team.

That said, RPM is an awful stat (like all catch-all stats) and anyone even comparing it to TS% as if they're even remotely similar simply has no clue about statistics. I'm not even sure what makes a stat "objective", but TS% is just as objective as eFG% or FG% - actually a bit less because of the FT adjustment weight?

RPM has proven to be one of the most accurate meta stats in the sport. It's as close to WAR as you can get in basketball.

The parent stat it's based off of (RAPM) won best paper at Sloan for a reason. You said you prefer EFF (a nonsense volume stat, essentially a variant of PER) in another thread. That says a lot about your understanding of analytics.

[Joker]

Fairly rated generally, but talked about so much you'd think he was a superstar. It makes him feel overrated but he's not. Maybe overhyped, nuanced bugs distinct differences.

I think the constant chatter will turn some against him.

AL Horford and similar Gordon Hayward very similar praise imo.

Are any of the above that much more vital to their team than CJ McCollum? They're seemingly talked about 3x as much.

Sent from my LG-H872 using RealGM mobile app

Pascal Siakam is markedly better analytics wise than McCollum this playoffs, and doing so on a team that's considered a much more probable contender. I would say Siakam warrants more talk than CJ.

[Joker]

Pascal Siakam is top 8 in the league this playoffs in PER, TS%, WS/48, and PPG (for players playing over 30 mpg).

He's impacting the game at an elite level and doing so with elite efficiency.

[swyftdahoe]

He could be an eventual top 10-15 player in the league for one very reason.. he seems to sincerely believe he can be that kind of player and he's so damn raw that it's impossible to know his ceiling if he doesn't believe he has one. Even if Kawhi's a 1-year rental, he would've been well worth it for the Raps* for the mere fact that Siakam's been able to be around him all year.

* plus the bonus of getting out of DD's contract and the ceiling that represented for the franchise

[sikma42]

Lamar Odom talent with a work ethic

Sent from my SM-N960U using RealGM mobile app

[ILOVEIT]

Just want to know what people other than Raptors fans think of him. We all seem to value him highly and think he is gonna have a really good year. What do you guys see and what is his value around the league?




Its the drew league but he dropped 38 points 15 rebounds and 11 assists in a game

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

Was also the D-League Finals MVP

Watch on YouTube

Honestly he's the one player on Toronto (aside from KL obviously) that scares me if Warriors and Toronto get to the finals. He's under the radar but looks like he's about to explode on the scene.

[nurseryc]

Kid has one forgettable game today. Everyone has stinkers from time to time.

[pootbrah]

Hes like what draymond green would be like if draymond green had talent and wasnt a ****

[DoItALL9]

Fairly rated generally, but talked about so much you'd think he was a superstar. It makes him feel overrated but he's not. Maybe overhyped, nuanced but distinct differences.

I think the constant chatter will turn some against him.

AL Horford and Gordon Hayward receive very similar praise imo.

Are any of the above that much more vital to their team than CJ McCollum? They're seemingly talked about 3x as much.

Sent from my LG-H872 using RealGM mobile app

Pascal Siakam is markedly better analytics wise than McCollum this playoffs, and doing so on a team that's considered a much more probable contender. I would say Siakam warrants more talk than CJ.

He may warrant more talk but his "markedly better analytics" shouldn't be the only deciding factor. Moreover, the difference in their stats is not equal to the difference in talk especially compared to other costars. McCollum showed tonight how much he matters and Siakam needs to make sure not to have too many repeat performances of Monday night if Toronto is to remain a contender.