2019 Utah Jazz Off Season Thread

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Re: 2019 Utah Jazz Off Season Thread 

Post#141 » by Inigo Montoya » Fri May 3, 2019 2:13 pm

wco81 wrote:How do you bail because your team can't go all the way?

Every year 29 teams won't make it. But many of them will play good basketball, even if they fall short.

The team's ownership and, by extension, the front office, have demonstrated over decades that they are perfectly willing to put out a team that makes the playoffs every year but has no chance of being a true contender. The goal shouldn't be to be pretty good, the goal should be the best, to go all the way. Obviously, we all recognize only one team can win a ring every year, and no one is going to be upset and quit on the team because it didn't win a championship. But the feeling is that the ownership and FO are not willing to do whatever it takes to get to that level and will be perfectly content with rolling out a team that will spend the next half-decade or more in the first-second round range, with no real shot of contending for a championship. We are not asking for a championship, but we at least want a chance to compete for one.
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KqWIN wrote:Why are we talking about Middleton, Harris, and Porter?

The real decision the Jazz FO is making is between Continuity, Cap Flexibility, and Cash Considerations.
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Re: 2019 Utah Jazz Off Season Thread 

Post#142 » by wco81 » Fri May 3, 2019 2:56 pm

Sure but even if MVP level free agents are willing to come, how many smaller market teams are willing to sign them, paying luxury taxes if necessary?

They might have to raise revenues but how many fans would be willing to pay say 40% or greater ticket prices, buy jerseys, etc.?

Or when cable companies raise sports channel fees to pay for regional sports networks which broadcast local NBA games, how many will keep paying for cable rather than cut the cord?

Sure fans would like to see winners but they may have to put some money up.

How was the attendance when the Jazz were missing the playoffs? That may be one route to taking a jump, get a chance at a top 3 player in a draft which may have generational talent.
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Re: 2019 Utah Jazz Off Season Thread 

Post#143 » by Inigo Montoya » Fri May 3, 2019 3:01 pm

wco81 wrote:Sure but even if MVP level free agents are willing to come, how many smaller market teams are willing to sign them, paying luxury taxes if necessary?

They might have to raise revenues but how many fans would be willing to pay say 40% or greater ticket prices, buy jerseys, etc.?


That's kind of the point though--the Jazz still raise ticket prices...

Utah Jazz Season Ticket Holders reporting price increases of up to 150%
https://www.slcdunk.com/latest-utah-jazz-news-recent/2019/1/2/18165652/utah-jazz-season-ticket-holders-reporting-price-increase-of-up-to-150

https://kslnewsradio.com/1896257/utah-jazz-raise-season-ticket-prices/
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KqWIN wrote:Why are we talking about Middleton, Harris, and Porter?

The real decision the Jazz FO is making is between Continuity, Cap Flexibility, and Cash Considerations.
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Re: 2019 Utah Jazz Off Season Thread 

Post#144 » by zero24gravity » Fri May 3, 2019 5:02 pm

wco81 wrote:How was the attendance when the Jazz were missing the playoffs? That may be one route to taking a jump, get a chance at a top 3 player in a draft which may have generational talent.


It was still strong. The fan-base isn't going anywhere. They averaged over 18,000 fans during 25 win 2013-14 season. Slightly higher than the attendance average for this past 50 win season, actually.
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Re: 2019 Utah Jazz Off Season Thread 

Post#145 » by zero24gravity » Fri May 3, 2019 5:14 pm

Inigo Montoya wrote:
wco81 wrote:How do you bail because your team can't go all the way?

Every year 29 teams won't make it. But many of them will play good basketball, even if they fall short.

The team's ownership and, by extension, the front office, have demonstrated over decades that they are perfectly willing to put out a team that makes the playoffs every year but has no chance of being a true contender. The goal shouldn't be to be pretty good, the goal should be the best, to go all the way. Obviously, we all recognize only one team can win a ring every year, and no one is going to be upset and quit on the team because it didn't win a championship. But the feeling is that the ownership and FO are not willing to do whatever it takes to get to that level and will be perfectly content with rolling out a team that will spend the next half-decade or more in the first-second round range, with no real shot of contending for a championship. We are not asking for a championship, but we at least want a chance to compete for one.


I disagree with the entire idea that the FO doesn't do everything they can to win. They just aren't knee-jerk reaction people (thankfully). It's calculated with them. I mean, I guess if fans want the Jazz to be the Wolves, then the team can just make moves for the sake of making moves, but I certainly don't want that. I simply can't relate to fans who think the Jazz FO is not doing their jobs, and not doing it very well. They can't waive a magic wand and make all the NBA Stars align to bring in huge FA's, which is what it takes to be a "true contender"... stars. They have 2 stars right now, which were both home-grown and drafted (traded up) by the Jazz. When someone can provide me some proof that the Jazz had true opportunities to land star players and passed, then I'll start worrying about the FO not being bad a**. Funny thing is, many of the same people who complain about the Jazz not being interested in being true contenders, also complain about possible trades for guys like Conley, who, honestly, is about the biggest/best player the Jazz could hope to get. If the FA's aren't coming, and they can't trade for a "star" who has a few years left on his contract (so he can't just bail a year later), then how do fans propose the FO does more to become "true contenders"? It's not NBA 2k, after all.
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Re: 2019 Utah Jazz Off Season Thread 

Post#146 » by Inigo Montoya » Fri May 3, 2019 6:40 pm

zero24gravity wrote:I disagree with the entire idea that the FO doesn't do everything they can to win. They just aren't knee-jerk reaction people (thankfully). It's calculated with them. I mean, I guess if fans want the Jazz to be the Wolves, then the team can just make moves for the sake of making moves, but I certainly don't want that. I simply can't relate to fans who think the Jazz FO is not doing their jobs, and not doing it very well. They can't waive a magic wand and make all the NBA Stars align to bring in huge FA's, which is what it takes to be a "true contender"... stars. They have 2 stars right now, which were both home-grown and drafted (traded up) by the Jazz. When someone can provide me some proof that the Jazz had true opportunities to land star players and passed, then I'll start worrying about the FO not being bad a**. Funny thing is, many of the same people who complain about the Jazz not being interested in being true contenders, also complain about possible trades for guys like Conley, who, honestly, is about the biggest/best player the Jazz could hope to get. If the FA's aren't coming, and they can't trade for a "star" who has a few years left on his contract (so he can't just bail a year later), then how do fans propose the FO does more to become "true contenders"? It's not NBA 2k, after all.


You've made this point several times, and every time it takes what was said out of context. The assertion is not that the FO is not doing their jobs.
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KqWIN wrote:Why are we talking about Middleton, Harris, and Porter?

The real decision the Jazz FO is making is between Continuity, Cap Flexibility, and Cash Considerations.
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Re: 2019 Utah Jazz Off Season Thread 

Post#147 » by TO11 » Fri May 3, 2019 7:00 pm

The more I think about the FA situation the more I think that the Jazz should really consider signing Rubio to a 13-14 million dollar deal. I just don't see a PG out there right now that I think is worth spending more money. Obviously I think there are PG's that are a better fit but I don't think signing them makes us significantly better outside of Kemba Walker, but I am not realistically considering that an option.

The other thing that has been weighing on my mind so heavily and confusing the **** out of me is Favors. I agree with most of the board that Favors is just way to **** good to be coming off the bench. But I don't think the best version of this team has Favors starting at the 4 either. I don't know if Favors is worth his contract if he is just coming off the bench behind Gobert. Also, why do we love Favors so much but then it seems like he isn't worth anything as a trade piece? I think this guy is a legit starting center in this league, but it seems like he gets no interest. Is that because we are missing something or because he plays for Utah? I don't get it.

If I am DL I think I would put my priorities in this order:

1. Can I get an Stretch 4 via FA? If I can get a good stretch 4 then I try and sign Rubio to a team friendly deal (If cap space is available) and probably have to revoke rights to Favors.
2. If I can't get a good stretch 4 then lets look at the guard position. Can I get someone better than Rubio? (Walker is the dream but maybe I settle for Brogdon?) Is my coach willing to play DM as a PG, opening me up to more SG options in FA? (Maybe Middleton/Lamb will work?)
3. If I can't get anyone in FA, are there any trades I can make to upgrade? Perhaps I revisit the Conley trade...

I guess what I am really trying to say is that I would like the Jazz to try and address the 4 position if they can, before making a decision on Rubio.
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Re: 2019 Utah Jazz Off Season Thread 

Post#148 » by Inigo Montoya » Fri May 3, 2019 7:37 pm

How many years would you give Rubio in a new deal?
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KqWIN wrote:Why are we talking about Middleton, Harris, and Porter?

The real decision the Jazz FO is making is between Continuity, Cap Flexibility, and Cash Considerations.
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Re: 2019 Utah Jazz Off Season Thread 

Post#149 » by babyjax13 » Fri May 3, 2019 8:16 pm

I did some playing, and if we dump Dante we can keep Favors and sign a max free agent. This was kind of how it might ideally play out:

The idea here is to keep Favors while still having a max spot open. If Crowder were also traded, the Jazz could *almost* have two max spots after minimum roster charges.

Trade 1:
Dallas trades: nada
Utah trades: Kyle Korver, cash, multiple second round picks
Dallas buys out Kyle Korver using the cash sent from Utah, and gets compensated with 'x' amount of second round picks. They do this prior to the draft. I 'believe' this means that after Korver is waived, he's eligible to be signed in the offseason by the Jazz if he wants to continue playing, but his cap hit would be much less.

Trade 2:
Charlotte trades trades: Dwayne Bacon, 36
Utah trades: Dante Exum, Tony Bradley, Grayson Allen, 23
Or insert random team. If Kemba looks like he's leaving Charlotte takes a shot on Dante (signed two more years, shouldn't be a hindrance to a rebuilding team), a recent first round pick in Bradley (admittedly has the upside of a backup center), and swaps a second round for a first round pick. In this scenario Charlotte would likely not guarantee Parker so he can go somewhere to compete. Bacon is a nice player, Charlotte swaps him for a recently drafted player that has looked decent to finish the season. Obviously completed after the draft.

Free Agency:
Don't guarantee: Neto, Niang, Favors
Salaries: $50,901,306
Minimum roster charges: 5 = $4,192,320
Effective cap space: $53,906,374

Khris Middleton, Kemba Walker, or Jimmy Butler: 4 yr. max
These are the guys to me that are least likely to stay on their respective teams. Any one of the three would be huge for us if we could get them. I'll just say Middleton because that seems like the most 'conservative' get of the three.

Resign Derrick Favors: 4 yr. $56,000,000
Sign Favors for a bit less this year, but get him on a long-term deal.

Effective cap space: $8,883,302

Sign JaMychal Green for the remainder of what's left, three year deal?

Room exception: Elfrid Payton

Minimum: Shelvin Mack,

Rudy Gobert/Derrick Favors
Derrick Favors/JaMychal Green
Joe Ingles/Jae Crowder
Khris Middleton/Royce O'neale/Dwayne Bacon
Donovan Mitchell/Elfrid Payton/Shelvin Mack
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Re: 2019 Utah Jazz Off Season Thread 

Post#150 » by AingesBurner » Fri May 3, 2019 8:17 pm

Inigo Montoya wrote:How many years would you give Rubio in a new deal?


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Re: 2019 Utah Jazz Off Season Thread 

Post#151 » by Inigo Montoya » Fri May 3, 2019 8:40 pm

babyjax13 wrote:Trade 1:
Dallas trades: nada
Utah trades: Kyle Korver, cash, multiple second round picks
Dallas buys out Kyle Korver using the cash sent from Utah, and gets compensated with 'x' amount of second round picks. They do this prior to the draft. I 'believe' this means that after Korver is waived, he's eligible to be signed in the offseason by the Jazz if he wants to continue playing, but his cap hit would be much less.


As far as I know, Korver's contract in non-guaranteed, so the Jazz could just not pick up his option instead of giving up assets to another team so they'll take him and then waive him. Also, I don't think the Jazz can re-acquire Kover if they traded him away so soon, but I might be wrong about that. Either way, this feels like a needless maneuver in an attempt to have the cake and eat it too. If you want cap relief from Korver's contract, just don't pick up his option.
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KqWIN wrote:Why are we talking about Middleton, Harris, and Porter?

The real decision the Jazz FO is making is between Continuity, Cap Flexibility, and Cash Considerations.
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Re: 2019 Utah Jazz Off Season Thread 

Post#152 » by TO11 » Fri May 3, 2019 9:15 pm

Inigo Montoya wrote:How many years would you give Rubio in a new deal?

I would have to probably have to see how contracts line up with Gobert and Mitchell and the new Stretch 4....it wouldn't be a guarantee that we would have enough money to sign Rubio, but I wouldn't mind 2-4years if the numbers gave room for Gobert and Mitchell later on.
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Re: 2019 Utah Jazz Off Season Thread 

Post#153 » by zero24gravity » Fri May 3, 2019 9:31 pm

Inigo Montoya wrote:
zero24gravity wrote:I disagree with the entire idea that the FO doesn't do everything they can to win. They just aren't knee-jerk reaction people (thankfully). It's calculated with them. I mean, I guess if fans want the Jazz to be the Wolves, then the team can just make moves for the sake of making moves, but I certainly don't want that. I simply can't relate to fans who think the Jazz FO is not doing their jobs, and not doing it very well. They can't waive a magic wand and make all the NBA Stars align to bring in huge FA's, which is what it takes to be a "true contender"... stars. They have 2 stars right now, which were both home-grown and drafted (traded up) by the Jazz. When someone can provide me some proof that the Jazz had true opportunities to land star players and passed, then I'll start worrying about the FO not being bad a**. Funny thing is, many of the same people who complain about the Jazz not being interested in being true contenders, also complain about possible trades for guys like Conley, who, honestly, is about the biggest/best player the Jazz could hope to get. If the FA's aren't coming, and they can't trade for a "star" who has a few years left on his contract (so he can't just bail a year later), then how do fans propose the FO does more to become "true contenders"? It's not NBA 2k, after all.


You've made this point several times, and every time it takes what was said out of context. The assertion is not that the FO is not doing their jobs.


I'm not sure how this comment was taken out of context,

"The team's ownership and, by extension, the front office, have demonstrated over decades that they are perfectly willing to put out a team that makes the playoffs every year but has no chance of being a true contender. The goal shouldn't be to be pretty good, the goal should be the best, to go all the way"

Seems a pretty obvious knock on the team's FO and questions their desire to do everything they can to give Jazz fans the best team possible. Perhaps the word "willing" instead of "content" softens the blow a bit? Also, the last sentence seems to imply they don't have a goal to be the best.
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Re: 2019 Utah Jazz Off Season Thread 

Post#154 » by Inigo Montoya » Fri May 3, 2019 11:20 pm

zero24gravity wrote:I'm not sure how this comment was taken out of context,

"The team's ownership and, by extension, the front office, have demonstrated over decades that they are perfectly willing to put out a team that makes the playoffs every year but has no chance of being a true contender. The goal shouldn't be to be pretty good, the goal should be the best, to go all the way"

Seems a pretty obvious knock on the team's FO and questions their desire to do everything they can to give Jazz fans the best team possible. Perhaps the word "willing" instead of "content" softens the blow a bit? Also, the last sentence seems to imply they don't have a goal to be the best.


I never said the FO are not doing their job, for example. If anything, they are doing their job too well--more on that, below.

As for the team's goal, yes, I don't think that creating a the best team in the NBA is their main goal. I think their main goal is to put out there a team that makes the playoffs consistently, and that is more important to the ownership\FO than composing the best team in the league, or one that can contend for a championship. "Willing" or "content" both work in this case. The FO was perfectly willing to bring back the same team as last season even though it was clear it is not a contender, so that pretty much shows that they are willing to put together a team that has no shot at contention as long as it makes the playoffs. The Corbin yeas showed the ownership\FO were both willing and content of putting together teams that have no shot at contention as long as they make the playoffs. So do decades 1st-2nd round exit teams.

You look at what OKC and the Raptors did this season--it didn't work for OKC and may not work for the Raptors, but their FOs went for it. So did the Sixers this season, or in the Hinkie years, when they were willing to endure the pain to get top talent through the draft. It shows what a an ownership\FO that really want to win a ring looks like (there are other examples too). Point being, the FO is very conservative and risk-averse. It's not like they don't have a reason to do that and sometimes it's a good thing, but since making the playoffs is good enough, the ownership\FO don't have an incentive to assume much risk, even if the payoff is catapulting the Jazz to contender status. There had been plenty of stars traded over the past few years, when the Jazz touted cap space and asset accumulation just for these opportunities, and they came away with nothing, even though once the trades went through it was clear the Jazz had the assets to make a better offer, for example.

In the end, the Jazz's ownership and FO's main goal seem to be the next Memphis Grizzlies, not the next (insert contender name). If they somehow luck out to be more than that, I'm sure they'll be happy, but if not, I think they'll be perfectly fine with making the playoffs for the next 7 years and get bounced in the first-second round.
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KqWIN wrote:Why are we talking about Middleton, Harris, and Porter?

The real decision the Jazz FO is making is between Continuity, Cap Flexibility, and Cash Considerations.
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Re: 2019 Utah Jazz Off Season Thread 

Post#155 » by PharmD » Sat May 4, 2019 12:09 am

Inigo Montoya wrote:
babyjax13 wrote:Trade 1:
Dallas trades: nada
Utah trades: Kyle Korver, cash, multiple second round picks
Dallas buys out Kyle Korver using the cash sent from Utah, and gets compensated with 'x' amount of second round picks. They do this prior to the draft. I 'believe' this means that after Korver is waived, he's eligible to be signed in the offseason by the Jazz if he wants to continue playing, but his cap hit would be much less.


As far as I know, Korver's contract in non-guaranteed, so the Jazz could just not pick up his option instead of giving up assets to another team so they'll take him and then waive him. Also, I don't think the Jazz can re-acquire Kover if they traded him away so soon, but I might be wrong about that. Either way, this feels like a needless maneuver in an attempt to have the cake and eat it too. If you want cap relief from Korver's contract, just don't pick up his option.

3.44M of Korver's contract is guaranteed. He can be waived and stretched over 3 years for 1.15M/yr. So essentially picking up Korver's option is 3.1M (7.5 -3.4 of sunk cost = 3.1)
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Re: 2019 Utah Jazz Off Season Thread 

Post#156 » by stitches » Sat May 4, 2019 6:16 am

Inigo Montoya wrote:How many years would you give Rubio in a new deal?

1 for anything over MLE.
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Re: 2019 Utah Jazz Off Season Thread 

Post#157 » by babyjax13 » Sat May 4, 2019 7:26 am

I'd be dissapointed if we resigned Rubio because that would essentially mean running the whole team back. I'd only want him on the room mle
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Re: 2019 Utah Jazz Off Season Thread 

Post#158 » by Inigo Montoya » Sat May 4, 2019 2:10 pm

PharmD wrote:
Inigo Montoya wrote:
babyjax13 wrote:Trade 1:
Dallas trades: nada
Utah trades: Kyle Korver, cash, multiple second round picks
Dallas buys out Kyle Korver using the cash sent from Utah, and gets compensated with 'x' amount of second round picks. They do this prior to the draft. I 'believe' this means that after Korver is waived, he's eligible to be signed in the offseason by the Jazz if he wants to continue playing, but his cap hit would be much less.


As far as I know, Korver's contract in non-guaranteed, so the Jazz could just not pick up his option instead of giving up assets to another team so they'll take him and then waive him. Also, I don't think the Jazz can re-acquire Kover if they traded him away so soon, but I might be wrong about that. Either way, this feels like a needless maneuver in an attempt to have the cake and eat it too. If you want cap relief from Korver's contract, just don't pick up his option.

3.44M of Korver's contract is guaranteed. He can be waived and stretched over 3 years for 1.15M/yr. So essentially picking up Korver's option is 3.1M (7.5 -3.4 of sunk cost = 3.1)


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KqWIN wrote:Why are we talking about Middleton, Harris, and Porter?

The real decision the Jazz FO is making is between Continuity, Cap Flexibility, and Cash Considerations.
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Re: 2019 Utah Jazz Off Season Thread 

Post#159 » by wco81 » Sat May 4, 2019 2:41 pm

Btw, you guys watching Bucks Celtics?

Or Gordon had a good game 1 but nothing since, while Hill had a big game for the Bucks in game 3.

Imagine if Gordon stayed and Jazz also kept Hill. As backup, you know he can hit open 3s. Then Donovan wouldn’t have to shoot as much in volume.
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Re: 2019 Utah Jazz Off Season Thread 

Post#160 » by Inigo Montoya » Sat May 4, 2019 3:42 pm

wco81 wrote:Btw, you guys watching Bucks Celtics?

Or Gordon had a good game 1 but nothing since, while Hill had a big game for the Bucks in game 3.

Imagine if Gordon stayed and Jazz also kept Hill. As backup, you know he can hit open 3s. Then Donovan wouldn’t have to shoot as much in volume.

If the Jazz kept Hill we'd be screwed. The Jazz offered him a lot of money, which he declined and had he stayed, he'd be our starter and as we can see, since he left the Jazz he's been terrible, even though he a had a good game last night.
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KqWIN wrote:Why are we talking about Middleton, Harris, and Porter?

The real decision the Jazz FO is making is between Continuity, Cap Flexibility, and Cash Considerations.

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