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The Future is bright

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Re: The Future is bright 

Post#201 » by NotACat » Fri May 3, 2019 2:06 pm

I can't wait to see Bamba next year, really hope he makes a jump similar to JI this year.
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Re: The Future is bright 

Post#202 » by ezzzp » Fri May 3, 2019 4:34 pm

tiderulz wrote:
Def Swami wrote:
Skin wrote:Look, did it open up anyone's eyes when we resigned Harris? Fournier? Signed Biyombo? Gordon? Were those "big steps" towards attracting FAs in the Summer of 2019?

Who says we can't be competitive without Vuc? He's been here the last 7 years and we haven't been competitive. What does that say?

Vucevic becoming arguably a top 15 player in the league and Clifford are the real two reasons were even competitive this past season.

i think calling Vuc a top-15 player is a bit much. Maybe top-30 this year.


By advanced statistical measures, Vucevic was top 10 this season:

9th in PER
8th in RPM
7th in PIE
9th in VORP
8th in BPM
10th in WS
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Re: The Future is bright 

Post#203 » by Skin » Fri May 3, 2019 4:50 pm

ezzzp wrote:
tiderulz wrote:
Def Swami wrote:Vucevic becoming arguably a top 15 player in the league and Clifford are the real two reasons were even competitive this past season.

i think calling Vuc a top-15 player is a bit much. Maybe top-30 this year.


By advanced statistical measures, Vucevic was top 10 this season:

9th in PER
8th in RPM
7th in PIE
9th in VORP
8th in BPM
10th in WS

How about trade value wise? If he's given a new contract around $25M per year, who do you think we could get? If he's top 10 in the league then that just leaves a short list of players not available for trade, right?
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Re: The Future is bright 

Post#204 » by Skin » Fri May 3, 2019 5:02 pm

pepe1991 wrote:
MagicMatic wrote:
Skin wrote:Look, did it open up anyone's eyes when we resigned Harris? Fournier? Signed Biyombo? Gordon? Were those "big steps" towards attracting FAs in the Summer of 2019?

Who says we can't be competitive without Vuc? He's been here the last 7 years and we haven't been competitive. What does that say?


It says people believe he needs to be in a Magic uniform for a decade before we can truly compete in free agency. :lol:

Look, I get retaining the asset, but what does his trade value even look like with most likely the largest contract he will get in his career. All while not being a first or second option on a true contender? He’s only more valuable to Orlando because of what we lack, not because he’s actually providing that in other systems.

Production and value isn’t 1:1 for every team. This isn’t NBA2k.


Again ( and again, and again, and again.....) Magic will have same amount of money to spend on free agents with or without Vučević.

This is the problem when fans get a hold of the books. Everything is short sighted. Yes, with or without Vuc, the Magic have the same amount to spend THIS offseason. But what about next offseason, or the season after that or the season after that or who knows how long his deal will be... There are repercussion for signing Vuc to a huge deal that go beyond just THIS offseason.

If his contract is so big that he becomes untradeable, then that is a bad deal for us that will set us back another half a decade.
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Re: The Future is bright 

Post#205 » by Skin » Fri May 3, 2019 5:35 pm

Bensational wrote:
Skybox wrote:Having said that...If they don't have Gasol, this could have been a very different series, even with defensive emphasis on Vuc. Vuc basically ignored Ibaka's defense in the post, like he did to most centers in the league.


I think Vuc is valuable to have, but a lot is getting lost in the hyperbole with both sides trying to paint an absolute on what Vuc is or isn't.

For example, there's a misconception that Vuc owned Ibaka in the playoffs, but he didn't. He shot 33% against Gasol, and 36% against Ibaka. Vuc's whole game was thrown off in the playoffs.

People say it was a bad match up, but throughout the season Vuc struggled in the clutch when the pressure was on, against a lot of teams. He was our leading shooter in clutch situations, and he was the worst scorer in those situations, shooting 37%. That's over 46 games, so it's a solid sample size.

Vuc just gets flustered with heavy defense. He gets rattled when the stakes are high, and rushes his shots. I think he would have struggled against any of the top 4 eastern conference teams, because they can all play high pressure defense, and have bigs who can body him up.

People also say that his 82 games count more than 5 games in the playoffs. But, he also has 6 prior seasons of 82 game samples behind him. So when you factor in that:

- it's a contract year for him
- he had a favourable coaching addition
- teams now have a much stronger idea on how to defend and gameplan for him

it's got to make you wary of exactly how much you want to pay him. What if we pay him $20M+ and due to the factors above he regresses? Then we're stuck with a guy we can't move.

These are, to me, the most concerning 'cons' when weighing up whether to bring Vuc back or not. It can't be denied that there's a significant gamble in it.

That said, the 'pros' speak for themselves, too. He's a big man with a smooth offense that can be relied upon for 3 quarters of the game, he has range to the 3 (and is working to improve that even more), he passes extremely well, Cliff had his defense at a very capable level this season, and he now has a taste of the playoffs. He was a reliable leader for the team for most of this season, and he anchored our performances well.

With all the above considered, if you bring him back, you anticipate bringing him back for the duration of the contract offered to him, because I don't see much of a market for him to be traded in the future for anything of value. Bigs simply don't fetch good returns. But that's fine, as long as his contract declines and has the potential to get out after 2-3 seasons. Get him some proper help in the backcourt, and it should help him dramatically.

There's not enough consistency over his career to regard him as a safe bet upon return, but he's also accomplished so much this season that it's unfair to pretend he's worthless. He's a player who's very talented, but who has his warts. As long as you know what they are, you can prepare for them. Simple as that.

Thank you for being level headed. There has been one scenario brewing in my head where keeping Vuc might not be all that bad. 4 years, $88M-ish... that's not too terrible. He's a whole lot better than Fournier and we gave him $17M.

But if we do that, I'm not bringing Ross back. If ezzzp's numbers are correct then we would have $16.2M in available money left to spend this summer. With that, I make an offer to Kelly Oubre. I don't think Suns would match it. That's good starters money and he's in a bunched pack with Devin Booker, Ty Warren, Miles Bridges, and Josh Jackson.

Before he got hurt he was averaging over 21 ppg, 6 rpb, 2 spg, 1 bpg in the month of March. That's the kind of budding breakout player we should pursue. With the way WeHam covets length and defense, he fits right in at either wing position. We can start to play more uptempo and feed off his defense.

PG Markelle Fultz / DJ Augustin / MCW
SG Kelly Oubre / Evan Fournier
SF Jonathan Isaac / Wes Iwundu
PF Aaron Gordon / #16
C Nik Vucevic / Mo Bamba / Khem Birch

I can admit... that roster could get me hyped.
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Re: The Future is bright 

Post#206 » by tiderulz » Fri May 3, 2019 5:45 pm

ezzzp wrote:
tiderulz wrote:
Def Swami wrote:Vucevic becoming arguably a top 15 player in the league and Clifford are the real two reasons were even competitive this past season.

i think calling Vuc a top-15 player is a bit much. Maybe top-30 this year.


By advanced statistical measures, Vucevic was top 10 this season:

9th in PER
8th in RPM
7th in PIE
9th in VORP
8th in BPM
10th in WS

PER- Rudy Gobert 10, Capella 14
VORP - Gobert 4, Blake 14,
WS - Dwight Powell 8, Capella 5, Sabonis 15
BPM- Gobert 6, Nurkic 14

Stats are stats. But i dont consider any of Nurkic, Gobert, Powell, Capella, Sabonis top-15 players.
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Re: The Future is bright 

Post#207 » by tiderulz » Fri May 3, 2019 5:48 pm

Skin wrote:
Bensational wrote:
Skybox wrote:Having said that...If they don't have Gasol, this could have been a very different series, even with defensive emphasis on Vuc. Vuc basically ignored Ibaka's defense in the post, like he did to most centers in the league.


I think Vuc is valuable to have, but a lot is getting lost in the hyperbole with both sides trying to paint an absolute on what Vuc is or isn't.

For example, there's a misconception that Vuc owned Ibaka in the playoffs, but he didn't. He shot 33% against Gasol, and 36% against Ibaka. Vuc's whole game was thrown off in the playoffs.

People say it was a bad match up, but throughout the season Vuc struggled in the clutch when the pressure was on, against a lot of teams. He was our leading shooter in clutch situations, and he was the worst scorer in those situations, shooting 37%. That's over 46 games, so it's a solid sample size.

Vuc just gets flustered with heavy defense. He gets rattled when the stakes are high, and rushes his shots. I think he would have struggled against any of the top 4 eastern conference teams, because they can all play high pressure defense, and have bigs who can body him up.

People also say that his 82 games count more than 5 games in the playoffs. But, he also has 6 prior seasons of 82 game samples behind him. So when you factor in that:

- it's a contract year for him
- he had a favourable coaching addition
- teams now have a much stronger idea on how to defend and gameplan for him

it's got to make you wary of exactly how much you want to pay him. What if we pay him $20M+ and due to the factors above he regresses? Then we're stuck with a guy we can't move.

These are, to me, the most concerning 'cons' when weighing up whether to bring Vuc back or not. It can't be denied that there's a significant gamble in it.

That said, the 'pros' speak for themselves, too. He's a big man with a smooth offense that can be relied upon for 3 quarters of the game, he has range to the 3 (and is working to improve that even more), he passes extremely well, Cliff had his defense at a very capable level this season, and he now has a taste of the playoffs. He was a reliable leader for the team for most of this season, and he anchored our performances well.

With all the above considered, if you bring him back, you anticipate bringing him back for the duration of the contract offered to him, because I don't see much of a market for him to be traded in the future for anything of value. Bigs simply don't fetch good returns. But that's fine, as long as his contract declines and has the potential to get out after 2-3 seasons. Get him some proper help in the backcourt, and it should help him dramatically.

There's not enough consistency over his career to regard him as a safe bet upon return, but he's also accomplished so much this season that it's unfair to pretend he's worthless. He's a player who's very talented, but who has his warts. As long as you know what they are, you can prepare for them. Simple as that.

Thank you for being level headed. There has been one scenario brewing in my head where keeping Vuc might not be all that bad. 4 years, $88M-ish... that's not too terrible. He's a whole lot better than Fournier and we gave him $17M.

But if we do that, I'm not bringing Ross back. If ezzzp's numbers are correct then we would have $16.2M in available money left to spend this summer. With that, I make an offer to Kelly Oubre. I don't think Suns would match it. That's good starters money and he's in a bunched pack with Devin Booker, Ty Warren, Miles Bridges, and Josh Jackson.

Before he got hurt he was averaging over 21 ppg, 6 rpb, 2 spg, 1 bpg in the month of March. That's the kind of budding breakout player we should pursue. With the way WeHam covets length and defense, he fits right in at either wing position. We can start to play more uptempo and feed off his defense.

PG Markelle Fultz / DJ Augustin / MCW
SG Kelly Oubre / Evan Fournier
SF Jonathan Isaac / Wes Iwundu
PF Aaron Gordon / #16
C Nik Vucevic / Mo Bamba / Khem Birch

I can admit... that roster could get me hyped.

i like the idea of Oubre, im just worried about a player that blows up in his contract year on a bad team. and his DRTG has been pretty bad the past 3 years. like worse than Evan this year bad.
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Re: The Future is bright 

Post#208 » by pepe1991 » Fri May 3, 2019 7:22 pm

Skin wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:
MagicMatic wrote:
It says people believe he needs to be in a Magic uniform for a decade before we can truly compete in free agency. :lol:

Look, I get retaining the asset, but what does his trade value even look like with most likely the largest contract he will get in his career. All while not being a first or second option on a true contender? He’s only more valuable to Orlando because of what we lack, not because he’s actually providing that in other systems.

Production and value isn’t 1:1 for every team. This isn’t NBA2k.


Again ( and again, and again, and again.....) Magic will have same amount of money to spend on free agents with or without Vučević.

This is the problem when fans get a hold of the books. Everything is short sighted. Yes, with or without Vuc, the Magic have the same amount to spend THIS offseason. But what about next offseason, or the season after that or the season after that or who knows how long his deal will be... There are repercussion for signing Vuc to a huge deal that go beyond just THIS offseason.

If his contract is so big that he becomes untradeable, then that is a bad deal for us that will set us back another half a decade.


No, this is when people pretend that they are looking forward ,and yet they ignore factors to predict future like 2020 FA is one of worst FA in decades and 2020 pretty terrible draft.
So their " masterplan" is on dely for 2 full calendar years. Where Fultz and Isaac are done with rookie scale contracts.

So what about next offseason? Can you list 15 great FA that will become FA next year? I actually posted best FAs in 2020, that's most depressing list you can find on internet.
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Re: The Future is bright 

Post#209 » by yoyojw17 » Fri May 3, 2019 7:35 pm

tiderulz wrote:
Skin wrote:
Bensational wrote:
I think Vuc is valuable to have, but a lot is getting lost in the hyperbole with both sides trying to paint an absolute on what Vuc is or isn't.

For example, there's a misconception that Vuc owned Ibaka in the playoffs, but he didn't. He shot 33% against Gasol, and 36% against Ibaka. Vuc's whole game was thrown off in the playoffs.

People say it was a bad match up, but throughout the season Vuc struggled in the clutch when the pressure was on, against a lot of teams. He was our leading shooter in clutch situations, and he was the worst scorer in those situations, shooting 37%. That's over 46 games, so it's a solid sample size.

Vuc just gets flustered with heavy defense. He gets rattled when the stakes are high, and rushes his shots. I think he would have struggled against any of the top 4 eastern conference teams, because they can all play high pressure defense, and have bigs who can body him up.

People also say that his 82 games count more than 5 games in the playoffs. But, he also has 6 prior seasons of 82 game samples behind him. So when you factor in that:

- it's a contract year for him
- he had a favourable coaching addition
- teams now have a much stronger idea on how to defend and gameplan for him

it's got to make you wary of exactly how much you want to pay him. What if we pay him $20M+ and due to the factors above he regresses? Then we're stuck with a guy we can't move.

These are, to me, the most concerning 'cons' when weighing up whether to bring Vuc back or not. It can't be denied that there's a significant gamble in it.

That said, the 'pros' speak for themselves, too. He's a big man with a smooth offense that can be relied upon for 3 quarters of the game, he has range to the 3 (and is working to improve that even more), he passes extremely well, Cliff had his defense at a very capable level this season, and he now has a taste of the playoffs. He was a reliable leader for the team for most of this season, and he anchored our performances well.

With all the above considered, if you bring him back, you anticipate bringing him back for the duration of the contract offered to him, because I don't see much of a market for him to be traded in the future for anything of value. Bigs simply don't fetch good returns. But that's fine, as long as his contract declines and has the potential to get out after 2-3 seasons. Get him some proper help in the backcourt, and it should help him dramatically.

There's not enough consistency over his career to regard him as a safe bet upon return, but he's also accomplished so much this season that it's unfair to pretend he's worthless. He's a player who's very talented, but who has his warts. As long as you know what they are, you can prepare for them. Simple as that.

Thank you for being level headed. There has been one scenario brewing in my head where keeping Vuc might not be all that bad. 4 years, $88M-ish... that's not too terrible. He's a whole lot better than Fournier and we gave him $17M.

But if we do that, I'm not bringing Ross back. If ezzzp's numbers are correct then we would have $16.2M in available money left to spend this summer. With that, I make an offer to Kelly Oubre. I don't think Suns would match it. That's good starters money and he's in a bunched pack with Devin Booker, Ty Warren, Miles Bridges, and Josh Jackson.

Before he got hurt he was averaging over 21 ppg, 6 rpb, 2 spg, 1 bpg in the month of March. That's the kind of budding breakout player we should pursue. With the way WeHam covets length and defense, he fits right in at either wing position. We can start to play more uptempo and feed off his defense.

PG Markelle Fultz / DJ Augustin / MCW
SG Kelly Oubre / Evan Fournier
SF Jonathan Isaac / Wes Iwundu
PF Aaron Gordon / #16
C Nik Vucevic / Mo Bamba / Khem Birch

I can admit... that roster could get me hyped.

i like the idea of Oubre, im just worried about a player that blows up in his contract year on a bad team. and his DRTG has been pretty bad the past 3 years. like worse than Evan this year bad.

https://www.azcentral.com/story/sports/nba/suns/2019/04/25/suns-love-kelly-oubre-jr-but-would-they-match-80-million-deal/3571277002/ seems as though they are expecting to fetch a hefty price for him.

Another player that really intrigues me … and I wouldn't be surprised gets his name thrown in with Orlando is Jeremy Lamb. He has come a long ways and I think he fits the mold of the type of player this team would like to add.
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Re: The Future is bright 

Post#210 » by tiderulz » Fri May 3, 2019 7:53 pm

yoyojw17 wrote:
tiderulz wrote:
Skin wrote:Thank you for being level headed. There has been one scenario brewing in my head where keeping Vuc might not be all that bad. 4 years, $88M-ish... that's not too terrible. He's a whole lot better than Fournier and we gave him $17M.

But if we do that, I'm not bringing Ross back. If ezzzp's numbers are correct then we would have $16.2M in available money left to spend this summer. With that, I make an offer to Kelly Oubre. I don't think Suns would match it. That's good starters money and he's in a bunched pack with Devin Booker, Ty Warren, Miles Bridges, and Josh Jackson.

Before he got hurt he was averaging over 21 ppg, 6 rpb, 2 spg, 1 bpg in the month of March. That's the kind of budding breakout player we should pursue. With the way WeHam covets length and defense, he fits right in at either wing position. We can start to play more uptempo and feed off his defense.

PG Markelle Fultz / DJ Augustin / MCW
SG Kelly Oubre / Evan Fournier
SF Jonathan Isaac / Wes Iwundu
PF Aaron Gordon / #16
C Nik Vucevic / Mo Bamba / Khem Birch

I can admit... that roster could get me hyped.

i like the idea of Oubre, im just worried about a player that blows up in his contract year on a bad team. and his DRTG has been pretty bad the past 3 years. like worse than Evan this year bad.

https://www.azcentral.com/story/sports/nba/suns/2019/04/25/suns-love-kelly-oubre-jr-but-would-they-match-80-million-deal/3571277002/ seems as though they are expecting to fetch a hefty price for him.

Another player that really intrigues me … and I wouldn't be surprised gets his name thrown in with Orlando is Jeremy Lamb. He has come a long ways and I think he fits the mold of the type of player this team would like to add.

what does Lamb do though that Evan doesnt?
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Re: The Future is bright 

Post#211 » by NotACat » Fri May 3, 2019 7:58 pm

tiderulz wrote:
yoyojw17 wrote:
tiderulz wrote:i like the idea of Oubre, im just worried about a player that blows up in his contract year on a bad team. and his DRTG has been pretty bad the past 3 years. like worse than Evan this year bad.

https://www.azcentral.com/story/sports/nba/suns/2019/04/25/suns-love-kelly-oubre-jr-but-would-they-match-80-million-deal/3571277002/ seems as though they are expecting to fetch a hefty price for him.

Another player that really intrigues me … and I wouldn't be surprised gets his name thrown in with Orlando is Jeremy Lamb. He has come a long ways and I think he fits the mold of the type of player this team would like to add.

what does Lamb do though that Evan doesnt?

He would come at a lower price tag, provide depth and give us some much needed shooting with the 2nd unit.
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Re: The Future is bright 

Post#212 » by ezzzp » Fri May 3, 2019 8:32 pm

Skin wrote:
ezzzp wrote:
tiderulz wrote:i think calling Vuc a top-15 player is a bit much. Maybe top-30 this year.


By advanced statistical measures, Vucevic was top 10 this season:

9th in PER
8th in RPM
7th in PIE
9th in VORP
8th in BPM
10th in WS


How about trade value wise? If he's given a new contract around $25M per year, who do you think we could get? If he's top 10 in the league then that just leaves a short list of players not available for trade, right?


Your entire argument has been that Vucevic isn't that good and will have bad trade value if paid...but somehow you rationalize that he will get a $100m dollar contract. That entire argument is a contradiction.

Now, facing statistical evidence showing how effective he was all year long, your argument is that in a trade he won't get an equal player to those stats? Wow.

Vucevic will be at peak prime for at very least the first two years of his next contract. His skill set and health history are usually characteristics of bigs that age well and remain productive.

Some recent transactions involving big's:

...Marc Gasol who was owed remainder of (18-19) $24m + (19-20) $26m fully guaranteed just returned: a good emerging young PG (Delon Wright), a solid young C (Jonas Valenciunas), a solid 3-D vet bench wing on a cheap/short term contract (CJ Miles) and the 38th pick in 2019 draft.

...Brook Lopez + 27th pick got Brooklyn D'Angelo Russell

...Greg Monroe + heavily protected 1st (didn't convey in 2018 or 2019 drafts, protected top 8 in 2020) got Milwaukee Eric Bledsoe
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Re: The Future is bright 

Post#213 » by yoyojw17 » Fri May 3, 2019 8:33 pm

NotACat wrote:
tiderulz wrote:
yoyojw17 wrote:https://www.azcentral.com/story/sports/nba/suns/2019/04/25/suns-love-kelly-oubre-jr-but-would-they-match-80-million-deal/3571277002/ seems as though they are expecting to fetch a hefty price for him.

Another player that really intrigues me … and I wouldn't be surprised gets his name thrown in with Orlando is Jeremy Lamb. He has come a long ways and I think he fits the mold of the type of player this team would like to add.

what does Lamb do though that Evan doesnt?

He would come at a lower price tag, provide depth and give us some much needed shooting with the 2nd unit.

Exactly. If ross is not part of the plan... I would think lamb would be a great option to fill that role. Small sample size... but at the end of the season... he really took it up a notch when they made a push for the playoffs. I'd give him a shot for back up guard. Plus... i'm not all out on Fournier as most are.... he had a bad year.... he's a prideful character... and I won't see him sit back and just accept it. so I won't be thinking of a replacement quite yet. haha... unless people are serious about Fournier+bamba+pick for beal. haha
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Re: The Future is bright 

Post#214 » by ezzzp » Fri May 3, 2019 8:38 pm

tiderulz wrote:
ezzzp wrote:
tiderulz wrote:i think calling Vuc a top-15 player is a bit much. Maybe top-30 this year.


By advanced statistical measures, Vucevic was top 10 this season:

9th in PER
8th in RPM
7th in PIE
9th in VORP
8th in BPM
10th in WS


PER- Rudy Gobert 10, Capella 14
VORP - Gobert 4, Blake 14,
WS - Dwight Powell 8, Capella 5, Sabonis 15
BPM- Gobert 6, Nurkic 14

Stats are stats. But i dont consider any of Nurkic, Gobert, Powell, Capella, Sabonis top-15 players.


None of those guys are in top 10 of ALL those stats, none of them were made All-Star by NBA coaches (not popular vote). The statistical evidence is there and the professional expert assessment is as well...if you choose to ignore that its up to you.
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Re: The Future is bright 

Post#215 » by zaymon » Fri May 3, 2019 8:51 pm

NotACat wrote:
tiderulz wrote:
yoyojw17 wrote:https://www.azcentral.com/story/sports/nba/suns/2019/04/25/suns-love-kelly-oubre-jr-but-would-they-match-80-million-deal/3571277002/ seems as though they are expecting to fetch a hefty price for him.

Another player that really intrigues me … and I wouldn't be surprised gets his name thrown in with Orlando is Jeremy Lamb. He has come a long ways and I think he fits the mold of the type of player this team would like to add.

what does Lamb do though that Evan doesnt?

He would come at a lower price tag, provide depth and give us some much needed shooting with the 2nd unit.

We have Ross for that, and we badly need more ball handlers. Lamb is smaller than Evan, worse passer, worse defender. Its more Lamb/Ross than Lamb/Fournier
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Re: The Future is bright 

Post#216 » by ezzzp » Fri May 3, 2019 9:08 pm

yoyojw17 wrote:
tiderulz wrote:
Skin wrote:Thank you for being level headed. There has been one scenario brewing in my head where keeping Vuc might not be all that bad. 4 years, $88M-ish... that's not too terrible. He's a whole lot better than Fournier and we gave him $17M.

But if we do that, I'm not bringing Ross back. If ezzzp's numbers are correct then we would have $16.2M in available money left to spend this summer. With that, I make an offer to Kelly Oubre. I don't think Suns would match it. That's good starters money and he's in a bunched pack with Devin Booker, Ty Warren, Miles Bridges, and Josh Jackson.

Before he got hurt he was averaging over 21 ppg, 6 rpb, 2 spg, 1 bpg in the month of March. That's the kind of budding breakout player we should pursue. With the way WeHam covets length and defense, he fits right in at either wing position. We can start to play more uptempo and feed off his defense.

PG Markelle Fultz / DJ Augustin / MCW
SG Kelly Oubre / Evan Fournier
SF Jonathan Isaac / Wes Iwundu
PF Aaron Gordon / #16
C Nik Vucevic / Mo Bamba / Khem Birch

I can admit... that roster could get me hyped.

i like the idea of Oubre, im just worried about a player that blows up in his contract year on a bad team. and his DRTG has been pretty bad the past 3 years. like worse than Evan this year bad.

https://www.azcentral.com/story/sports/nba/suns/2019/04/25/suns-love-kelly-oubre-jr-but-would-they-match-80-million-deal/3571277002/ seems as though they are expecting to fetch a hefty price for him.

Another player that really intrigues me … and I wouldn't be surprised gets his name thrown in with Orlando is Jeremy Lamb. He has come a long ways and I think he fits the mold of the type of player this team would like to add.


Kelly Oubre?

Oubre is a career 32% shooter from 3pt (32% this season). He hasn't been able to create for other's, ever (career 5.6 AST%). He is notorious for lazy low bbIQ defense and is known to have psychological baggage.

The Magic's offense (with or without Vucevic) will require secondary lane penetration/creation + spot up shooters from the wing:

• Drives

Oubre: 6.0 pg / 44.7 FG% / 3.6 AST%
Fournier: 8.9 pg / 47.6 FG% / 11.9 AST%

• Catch and Shoot

Oubre: 4.0 FGA pg / 47.1 eFG% / .311 3P%
Fournier: 4.0 FGA pg / 54.0 eFG% / .367 3P%

• Comparison at same age (23/24): http://bkref.com/tiny/ss0re
• Comparison last season (18-19): http://bkref.com/tiny/EG2mA

Also, the Magic only have $16m if they don't sign Vucevic or Ross...they only have the MLE if they sign either or both.
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Re: The Future is bright 

Post#217 » by tiderulz » Fri May 3, 2019 10:07 pm

ezzzp wrote:
tiderulz wrote:
ezzzp wrote:
By advanced statistical measures, Vucevic was top 10 this season:

9th in PER
8th in RPM
7th in PIE
9th in VORP
8th in BPM
10th in WS


PER- Rudy Gobert 10, Capella 14
VORP - Gobert 4, Blake 14,
WS - Dwight Powell 8, Capella 5, Sabonis 15
BPM- Gobert 6, Nurkic 14

Stats are stats. But i dont consider any of Nurkic, Gobert, Powell, Capella, Sabonis top-15 players.


None of those guys are in top 10 of ALL those stats, none of them were made All-Star by NBA coaches (not popular vote). The statistical evidence is there and the professional expert assessment is as well...if you choose to ignore that its up to you.

Gobert is in most of them and no one considers him near a top-10 top-15 player
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Re: The Future is bright 

Post#218 » by Skin » Fri May 3, 2019 10:12 pm

pepe1991 wrote:
Skin wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:
Again ( and again, and again, and again.....) Magic will have same amount of money to spend on free agents with or without Vučević.

This is the problem when fans get a hold of the books. Everything is short sighted. Yes, with or without Vuc, the Magic have the same amount to spend THIS offseason. But what about next offseason, or the season after that or the season after that or who knows how long his deal will be... There are repercussion for signing Vuc to a huge deal that go beyond just THIS offseason.

If his contract is so big that he becomes untradeable, then that is a bad deal for us that will set us back another half a decade.


No, this is when people pretend that they are looking forward ,and yet they ignore factors to predict future like 2020 FA is one of worst FA in decades and 2020 pretty terrible draft.
So their " masterplan" is on dely for 2 full calendar years. Where Fultz and Isaac are done with rookie scale contracts.

So what about next offseason? Can you list 15 great FA that will become FA next year? I actually posted best FAs in 2020, that's most depressing list you can find on internet.
Spoiler:
Lowry and Millsap are best players

Cap space is NEVER a problem. Even if the FA class was weak, that's not the only way to acquire talent. We could take on a bad contract and get a good player or draft pick in return. ...and 2020 is still shortsighted. You have to take into account the entire duration of Vuc's new deal.
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Re: The Future is bright 

Post#219 » by Skin » Fri May 3, 2019 10:17 pm

ezzzp wrote:
yoyojw17 wrote:
tiderulz wrote:i like the idea of Oubre, im just worried about a player that blows up in his contract year on a bad team. and his DRTG has been pretty bad the past 3 years. like worse than Evan this year bad.

https://www.azcentral.com/story/sports/nba/suns/2019/04/25/suns-love-kelly-oubre-jr-but-would-they-match-80-million-deal/3571277002/ seems as though they are expecting to fetch a hefty price for him.

Another player that really intrigues me … and I wouldn't be surprised gets his name thrown in with Orlando is Jeremy Lamb. He has come a long ways and I think he fits the mold of the type of player this team would like to add.


Kelly Oubre?

Oubre is a career 32% shooter from 3pt (32% this season). He hasn't been able to create for other's, ever (career 5.6 AST%). He is notorious for lazy low bbIQ defense and is known to have psychological baggage.

The Magic's offense (with or without Vucevic) will require secondary lane penetration/creation + spot up shooters from the wing:

• Drives

Oubre: 6.0 pg / 44.7 FG% / 3.6 AST%
Fournier: 8.9 pg / 47.6 FG% / 11.9 AST%

• Catch and Shoot

Oubre: 4.0 FGA pg / 47.1 eFG% / .311 3P%
Fournier: 4.0 FGA pg / 54.0 eFG% / .367 3P%

• Comparison at same age (23/24): http://bkref.com/tiny/ss0re
• Comparison last season (18-19): http://bkref.com/tiny/EG2mA

Also, the Magic only have $16m if they don't sign Vucevic or Ross...they only have the MLE if they sign either or both.

This is where an eye for talent comes in. When Henny brought in Tobias and Fournier he didn't base his opinion on them based on their stats. Our players are too soft too. We need more guys with an edge.
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Re: The Future is bright 

Post#220 » by Skin » Fri May 3, 2019 10:30 pm

ezzzp wrote:
Skin wrote:
ezzzp wrote:
By advanced statistical measures, Vucevic was top 10 this season:

9th in PER
8th in RPM
7th in PIE
9th in VORP
8th in BPM
10th in WS


How about trade value wise? If he's given a new contract around $25M per year, who do you think we could get? If he's top 10 in the league then that just leaves a short list of players not available for trade, right?


Your entire argument has been that Vucevic isn't that good and will have bad trade value if paid...but somehow you rationalize that he will get a $100m dollar contract. That entire argument is a contradiction.

Now, facing statistical evidence showing how effective he was all year long, your argument is that in a trade he won't get an equal player to those stats? Wow.

Vucevic will be at peak prime for at very least the first two years of his next contract. His skill set and health history are usually characteristics of bigs that age well and remain productive.

Some recent transactions involving big's:

...Marc Gasol who was owed remainder of (18-19) $24m + (19-20) $26m fully guaranteed just returned: a good emerging young PG (Delon Wright), a solid young C (Jonas Valenciunas), a solid 3-D vet bench wing on a cheap/short term contract (CJ Miles) and the 38th pick in 2019 draft.

...Brook Lopez + 27th pick got Brooklyn D'Angelo Russell

...Greg Monroe + heavily protected 1st (didn't convey in 2018 or 2019 drafts, protected top 8 in 2020) got Milwaukee Eric Bledsoe

This is crazy. My post was an example of how I could be optimistic about keeping Vuc around. I obviously don't think things will be as rosy in real life. So don't try to twist things as if these are my base feelings. Also 4/$88M (which is what I would be good with) is different than 4/$100M. We both know $100M is his floor market price. ...and we both know market price does not equal league wide value.

Gasol trade was meaningless for the Grizz. D'Angelo was a team cancer and bust at the time of his trade. If these age the case examples for explaining how to get value for Vuc then that's weak. Monroe was a valuable as an expiring contract. Vuc was not even that coming into this season as a $14M excluding contract. I still remember the wiretap headlines od the magic testing trade waters for Vuc. Trade value was not good enough I guess. So now he will be making $25M+?

So silly.

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