The Future is bright

[ezzzp]

PER- Rudy Gobert 10, Capella 14
VORP - Gobert 4, Blake 14,
WS - Dwight Powell 8, Capella 5, Sabonis 15
BPM- Gobert 6, Nurkic 14

Stats are stats. But i dont consider any of Nurkic, Gobert, Powell, Capella, Sabonis top-15 players.

None of those guys are in top 10 of ALL those stats, none of them were made All-Star by NBA coaches (not popular vote). The statistical evidence is there and the professional expert assessment is as well...if you choose to ignore that its up to you.

Gobert is in most of them and no one considers him near a top-10 top-15 player

Gobert is only in a few and everyone knows he's not the focus of defenses every night like Vucevic is. Plus Gobert was DPOY and ALL NBA (2nd Team) prior year...so even at that many people at the top of their field consider Gobert one of the best in NBA.

Vucevic was in ALL of those stats + anchored a top 8 defense and was 6th in DRPM in entire NBA. The statistical evidence is there for Vucevic, as is the professional expert assessment. I'm not going to ignore that.

[ezzzp]

How about trade value wise? If he's given a new contract around $25M per year, who do you think we could get? If he's top 10 in the league then that just leaves a short list of players not available for trade, right?

Your entire argument has been that Vucevic isn't that good and will have bad trade value if paid...but somehow you rationalize that he will get a $100m dollar contract. That entire argument is a contradiction.

Now, facing statistical evidence showing how effective he was all year long, your argument is that in a trade he won't get an equal player to those stats? Wow.

Vucevic will be at peak prime for at very least the first two years of his next contract. His skill set and health history are usually characteristics of bigs that age well and remain productive.

Some recent transactions involving big's:

...Marc Gasol who was owed remainder of (18-19) $24m + (19-20) $26m fully guaranteed just returned: a good emerging young PG (Delon Wright), a solid young C (Jonas Valenciunas), a solid 3-D vet bench wing on a cheap/short term contract (CJ Miles) and the 38th pick in 2019 draft.

...Brook Lopez + 27th pick got Brooklyn D'Angelo Russell

...Greg Monroe + heavily protected 1st (didn't convey in 2018 or 2019 drafts, protected top 8 in 2020) got Milwaukee Eric Bledsoe

This is crazy. My post was an example of how I could be optimistic about keeping Vuc around. I obviously don't think things will be as rosy in real life. So don't try to twist things as if these are my base feelings. Also 4/$88M (which is what I would be good with) is different than 4/$100M. We both know $100M is his floor market price. ...and we both know market price does not equal league wide value.

Gasol trade was meaningless for the Grizz. D'Angelo was a team cancer and bust at the time of his trade. If these age the case examples for explaining how to get value for Vuc then that's weak. Monroe was a valuable as an expiring contract. Vuc was not even that coming into this season as a $14M excluding contract. I still remember the wiretap headlines od the magic testing trade waters for Vuc. Trade value was not good enough I guess. So now he will be making $25M+?

So silly.

No we both absolutely do not know that Vucevic's floor is $100m...Vucevic and Jeff Weltman don't know - how do you?


Gasol trade was meaningless for Grizz? They got their PG and C replacement for future + cap relief. You can't be serious.

D'Angelo was a #2 pick and healthy - and hardly a "cancer." Trade was because GM wanted his guy Lonzo Ball as focus and to clear cap space for free agents that never came that summer.

...you keep making excuses for your bias despite statistics and facts contradicting you at every turn....that's what is silly

[ezzzp]

https://www.azcentral.com/story/sports/nba/suns/2019/04/25/suns-love-kelly-oubre-jr-but-would-they-match-80-million-deal/3571277002/ seems as though they are expecting to fetch a hefty price for him.

Another player that really intrigues me … and I wouldn't be surprised gets his name thrown in with Orlando is Jeremy Lamb. He has come a long ways and I think he fits the mold of the type of player this team would like to add.

Kelly Oubre?

Oubre is a career 32% shooter from 3pt (32% this season). He hasn't been able to create for other's, ever (career 5.6 AST%). He is notorious for lazy low bbIQ defense and is known to have psychological baggage.

The Magic's offense (with or without Vucevic) will require secondary lane penetration/creation + spot up shooters from the wing:

• Drives

Oubre: 6.0 pg / 44.7 FG% / 3.6 AST%
Fournier: 8.9 pg / 47.6 FG% / 11.9 AST%

• Catch and Shoot

Oubre: 4.0 FGA pg / 47.1 eFG% / .311 3P%
Fournier: 4.0 FGA pg / 54.0 eFG% / .367 3P%

• Comparison at same age (23/24): http://bkref.com/tiny/ss0re
• Comparison last season (18-19): http://bkref.com/tiny/EG2mA

Also, the Magic only have $16m if they don't sign Vucevic or Ross...they only have the MLE if they sign either or both.

This is where an eye for talent comes in. When Henny brought in Tobias and Fournier he didn't base his opinion on them based on their stats. Our players are too soft too. We need more guys with an edge.

You seriously think that RH (coming from OKC's heavy analytics scouting dept) didn't know Fourniers numbers?

Fournier had promising rookie year in limited bench role shooting +40% behind arc/near .600 TS%. In second year he took a nice jump in role and became 20mpg key rotation player and was used as 2ndary creator off bench.

I'm sure he analyzed Harris college numbers as well.

Edge is not a player with known psychological issues. Not sure what you saw but the Magic showed resilience and toughness most of the year.

[Def Swami]

What makes Kelly Oubre have an edge?

[Bensational]

How about trade value wise? If he's given a new contract around $25M per year, who do you think we could get? If he's top 10 in the league then that just leaves a short list of players not available for trade, right?

Your entire argument has been that Vucevic isn't that good and will have bad trade value if paid...but somehow you rationalize that he will get a $100m dollar contract. That entire argument is a contradiction.

Now, facing statistical evidence showing how effective he was all year long, your argument is that in a trade he won't get an equal player to those stats? Wow.

Vucevic will be at peak prime for at very least the first two years of his next contract. His skill set and health history are usually characteristics of bigs that age well and remain productive.

Some recent transactions involving big's:

...Marc Gasol who was owed remainder of (18-19) $24m + (19-20) $26m fully guaranteed just returned: a good emerging young PG (Delon Wright), a solid young C (Jonas Valenciunas), a solid 3-D vet bench wing on a cheap/short term contract (CJ Miles) and the 38th pick in 2019 draft.

...Brook Lopez + 27th pick got Brooklyn D'Angelo Russell

...Greg Monroe + heavily protected 1st (didn't convey in 2018 or 2019 drafts, protected top 8 in 2020) got Milwaukee Eric Bledsoe

Bigs, traditionally, don't fetch good trade value, and those 3 deals aren't really relevant to what Vuc's future situation would be.

Lopez - was an expiring contract, which was LA's primary interest.
Monroe - also expiring.
Gasol - was on a player option, but also traded for Val who's also on a player option and could walk. Wright and Miles isn't an exciting return.

Bigs have frequently highly paid and then they become albatross contracts that aren't easily moved. Here's a recent list of C's who have signed deals in the last 4 years, and the returns they generated if traded:

2015-16
Tyson Chandler (33), $13M (PHO)/ 2018 - waived by Phoenix
DeAndre Jordan (27), $19.5M (LAC)
B.Lopez (27), $20M (BKN)/ 2017 - traded with Kuzma for Mozgov + Russell
R.Lopez (27), $13M (NYK)/ 2016 - traded with Calderon and Jerian Grant to Chicago for Rose (huge contract), Holiday and a pick.
G.Monroe (25), $16.4M (MIL)/ 2017 - traded as expiring along with 1st round pick for Bledsoe
Kanter (23), $16.4M (OKC)/ 2017 - traded with McDermott for Carmello Anthony. 2019 - waived by Knicks.
M. Gasol (31), $19.7M (MEM)/ 2019 - traded for Miles, Valanciunas and Wright.


2016-17
Biyombo (24), $17M (ORL)/ 2018 - traded to Charlotte for Mozgov
Ian Mahinmi (30), $17M (WAS)
Whiteside (27), $22M (MIA)
Horford (30), $26.5M (BOS)
Mozgov (30), $17M (LAL)/ 2017 - traded with Russell for Lopez + Kuzma/ 2018 - traded for Dwight Howard (exp), then for Biyombo.
Noah (31), $17M (NYK)/ 2018 - waived by Knicks
Dwight Howard (31), $23M (ATL) / 2017 - traded to CHA for Miles Plumlee + Belinelli. 2018 - traded to BKN for Mozgov.
P. Gasol (36), $16M (SAS) / 2019 - waived by SAS
Drummond (23), $22M (DET)


2017-18
Ibaka (28), $20M (TOR)
Mason Plumlee (27), $14M (DEN)/ Season prior, traded for Nurkic.


2018-19
DeAndre Jordan (30), $24M (DAL)/ 2019 traded as expiring (team option) along with DSJR for Porzingis + Hardaway Jr
B.Lopez (30), $3M (MIL)
Nurkic (24), $11M (POR)


So as you can see, the only times C's returned value in trades was as expiring contracts, at extremely fortunate times (Lakers wanting capspace for Bron, Bledsoe wanting out of Phoenix, Knicks deciding to move on from Porzingis). Otherwise, C's have fetched very middling returns, and they're generally swapped for other C's on big contracts.

[ezzzp]

So as you can see, the only times C's returned value in trades was as expiring contracts, at extremely fortunate times (Lakers wanting capspace for Bron, Bledsoe wanting out of Phoenix, Knicks deciding to move on from Porzingis). Otherwise, C's have fetched very middling returns, and they're generally swapped for other C's on big contracts.

How do you know Vucevic won't be on an expiring when he is traded? How do you know what his contract is? Are you clairvoyant?

....and a lot of those returns you say aren't good, are good. There are ALWAYS unique reasons for why a trade is made, that doesn't mean they didn't happen...excuses don't change the fact that Milwaukee didn't get Bledsoe for Monroe and low 1st or that Brooklyn didn't get D'Angelo Russell for Lopez.

[MagicMatic]

How about trade value wise? If he's given a new contract around $25M per year, who do you think we could get? If he's top 10 in the league then that just leaves a short list of players not available for trade, right?

Your entire argument has been that Vucevic isn't that good and will have bad trade value if paid...but somehow you rationalize that he will get a $100m dollar contract. That entire argument is a contradiction.

Now, facing statistical evidence showing how effective he was all year long, your argument is that in a trade he won't get an equal player to those stats? Wow.

Vucevic will be at peak prime for at very least the first two years of his next contract. His skill set and health history are usually characteristics of bigs that age well and remain productive.

Some recent transactions involving big's:

...Marc Gasol who was owed remainder of (18-19) $24m + (19-20) $26m fully guaranteed just returned: a good emerging young PG (Delon Wright), a solid young C (Jonas Valenciunas), a solid 3-D vet bench wing on a cheap/short term contract (CJ Miles) and the 38th pick in 2019 draft.

...Brook Lopez + 27th pick got Brooklyn D'Angelo Russell

...Greg Monroe + heavily protected 1st (didn't convey in 2018 or 2019 drafts, protected top 8 in 2020) got Milwaukee Eric Bledsoe

Bigs, traditionally, don't fetch good trade value, and those 3 deals aren't really relevant to what Vuc's future situation would be.

Lopez - was an expiring contract, which was LA's primary interest.
Monroe - also expiring.
Gasol - was on a player option, but also traded for Val who's also on a player option and could walk. Wright and Miles isn't an exciting return.

Bigs have frequently highly paid and then they become albatross contracts that aren't easily moved. Here's a recent list of C's who have signed deals in the last 4 years, and the returns they generated if traded:

2015-16
Tyson Chandler (33), $13M (PHO)/ 2018 - waived by Phoenix
DeAndre Jordan (27), $19.5M (LAC)
B.Lopez (27), $20M (BKN)/ 2017 - traded with Kuzma for Mozgov + Russell
R.Lopez (27), $13M (NYK)/ 2016 - traded with Calderon and Jerian Grant to Chicago for Rose (huge contract), Holiday and a pick.
G.Monroe (25), $16.4M (MIL)/ 2017 - traded as expiring along with 1st round pick for Bledsoe
Kanter (23), $16.4M (OKC)/ 2017 - traded with McDermott for Carmello Anthony. 2019 - waived by Knicks.
M. Gasol (31), $19.7M (MEM)/ 2019 - traded for Miles, Valanciunas and Wright.


2016-17
Biyombo (24), $17M (ORL)/ 2018 - traded to Charlotte for Mozgov
Ian Mahinmi (30), $17M (WAS)
Whiteside (27), $22M (MIA)
Horford (30), $26.5M (BOS)
Mozgov (30), $17M (LAL)/ 2017 - traded with Russell for Lopez + Kuzma/ 2018 - traded for Dwight Howard (exp), then for Biyombo.
Noah (31), $17M (NYK)/ 2018 - waived by Knicks
Dwight Howard (31), $23M (ATL) / 2017 - traded to CHA for Miles Plumlee + Belinelli. 2018 - traded to BKN for Mozgov.
P. Gasol (36), $16M (SAS) / 2019 - waived by SAS
Drummond (23), $22M (DET)


2017-18
Ibaka (28), $20M (TOR)
Mason Plumlee (27), $14M (DEN)/ Season prior, traded for Nurkic.


2018-19
DeAndre Jordan (30), $24M (DAL)/ 2019 traded as expiring (team option) along with DSJR for Porzingis + Hardaway Jr
B.Lopez (30), $3M (MIL)
Nurkic (24), $11M (POR)


So as you can see, the only times C's returned value in trades was as expiring contracts, at extremely fortunate times (Lakers wanting capspace for Bron, Bledsoe wanting out of Phoenix, Knicks deciding to move on from Porzingis). Otherwise, C's have fetched very middling returns, and they're generally swapped for other C's on big contracts.

Good breakdown Ben. More often than not, Centers become less valuable and don’t fetch as much on larger contracts.

[JF5]

How about trade value wise? If he's given a new contract around $25M per year, who do you think we could get? If he's top 10 in the league then that just leaves a short list of players not available for trade, right?

Your entire argument has been that Vucevic isn't that good and will have bad trade value if paid...but somehow you rationalize that he will get a $100m dollar contract. That entire argument is a contradiction.

Now, facing statistical evidence showing how effective he was all year long, your argument is that in a trade he won't get an equal player to those stats? Wow.

Vucevic will be at peak prime for at very least the first two years of his next contract. His skill set and health history are usually characteristics of bigs that age well and remain productive.

Some recent transactions involving big's:

...Marc Gasol who was owed remainder of (18-19) $24m + (19-20) $26m fully guaranteed just returned: a good emerging young PG (Delon Wright), a solid young C (Jonas Valenciunas), a solid 3-D vet bench wing on a cheap/short term contract (CJ Miles) and the 38th pick in 2019 draft.

...Brook Lopez + 27th pick got Brooklyn D'Angelo Russell

...Greg Monroe + heavily protected 1st (didn't convey in 2018 or 2019 drafts, protected top 8 in 2020) got Milwaukee Eric Bledsoe

Bigs, traditionally, don't fetch good trade value, and those 3 deals aren't really relevant to what Vuc's future situation would be.

Lopez - was an expiring contract, which was LA's primary interest.
Monroe - also expiring.
Gasol - was on a player option, but also traded for Val who's also on a player option and could walk. Wright and Miles isn't an exciting return.

Bigs have frequently highly paid and then they become albatross contracts that aren't easily moved. Here's a recent list of C's who have signed deals in the last 4 years, and the returns they generated if traded:

2015-16
Tyson Chandler (33), $13M (PHO)/ 2018 - waived by Phoenix
DeAndre Jordan (27), $19.5M (LAC)
B.Lopez (27), $20M (BKN)/ 2017 - traded with Kuzma for Mozgov + Russell
R.Lopez (27), $13M (NYK)/ 2016 - traded with Calderon and Jerian Grant to Chicago for Rose (huge contract), Holiday and a pick.
G.Monroe (25), $16.4M (MIL)/ 2017 - traded as expiring along with 1st round pick for Bledsoe
Kanter (23), $16.4M (OKC)/ 2017 - traded with McDermott for Carmello Anthony. 2019 - waived by Knicks.
M. Gasol (31), $19.7M (MEM)/ 2019 - traded for Miles, Valanciunas and Wright.


2016-17
Biyombo (24), $17M (ORL)/ 2018 - traded to Charlotte for Mozgov
Ian Mahinmi (30), $17M (WAS)
Whiteside (27), $22M (MIA)
Horford (30), $26.5M (BOS)
Mozgov (30), $17M (LAL)/ 2017 - traded with Russell for Lopez + Kuzma/ 2018 - traded for Dwight Howard (exp), then for Biyombo.
Noah (31), $17M (NYK)/ 2018 - waived by Knicks
Dwight Howard (31), $23M (ATL) / 2017 - traded to CHA for Miles Plumlee + Belinelli. 2018 - traded to BKN for Mozgov.
P. Gasol (36), $16M (SAS) / 2019 - waived by SAS
Drummond (23), $22M (DET)


2017-18
Ibaka (28), $20M (TOR)
Mason Plumlee (27), $14M (DEN)/ Season prior, traded for Nurkic.


2018-19
DeAndre Jordan (30), $24M (DAL)/ 2019 traded as expiring (team option) along with DSJR for Porzingis + Hardaway Jr
B.Lopez (30), $3M (MIL)
Nurkic (24), $11M (POR)


So as you can see, the only times C's returned value in trades was as expiring contracts, at extremely fortunate times (Lakers wanting capspace for Bron, Bledsoe wanting out of Phoenix, Knicks deciding to move on from Porzingis). Otherwise, C's have fetched very middling returns, and they're generally swapped for other C's on big contracts.

There is commonality in those bigs if you actually paid attention

Most all of them have little to no offensive skill/shooting ability outside P. Gasol/Horford/Lopez/M. Gasol...

All 4 of those bigs are on contending teams that are still in the playoffs as well and are mostly heavy/integral parts of their teams so that hurts the argument there (Pau is not playing though).

Edit: I forget to add Embiid/Jokic as well who are both 1st scoring options on their teams as well.

So its nonsense to say since all the remaining teams outside of Warriors/Blazers/Rockets have talented big men on their rosters.

[tiderulz]

None of those guys are in top 10 of ALL those stats, none of them were made All-Star by NBA coaches (not popular vote). The statistical evidence is there and the professional expert assessment is as well...if you choose to ignore that its up to you.

Gobert is in most of them and no one considers him near a top-10 top-15 player

Gobert is only in a few and everyone knows he's not the focus of defenses every night like Vucevic is. Plus Gobert was DPOY and ALL NBA (2nd Team) prior year...so even at that many people at the top of their field consider Gobert one of the best in NBA.

Vucevic was in ALL of those stats + anchored a top 8 defense and was 6th in DRPM in entire NBA. The statistical evidence is there for Vucevic, as is the professional expert assessment. I'm not going to ignore that.

show the stats you want, Vuc is NOT a top-15 player.

Durant, Curry, Lebron, Lillard, CJ, Harden, Giannis, Beal, Irving, George, Jokic, Oladipo, Kawhi, KAT, Embiid, Simmons, AD, I would all consider better players than Vuc.

Horford, Blake, Aldridge, Derozan, Dangelo, Doncic, Conley, Mitchell, Booker, Westbrook, Jrue, Middleton, Kemba, Klay, - I would consider on the same tier as Vuc.

[Bensational]

So as you can see, the only times C's returned value in trades was as expiring contracts, at extremely fortunate times (Lakers wanting capspace for Bron, Bledsoe wanting out of Phoenix, Knicks deciding to move on from Porzingis). Otherwise, C's have fetched very middling returns, and they're generally swapped for other C's on big contracts.

How do you know Vucevic won't be on an expiring when he is traded? How do you know what his contract is? Are you clairvoyant?

....and a lot of those returns you say aren't good, are good. There are ALWAYS unique reasons for why a trade is made, that doesn't mean they didn't happen...excuses don't change the fact that Milwaukee didn't get Bledsoe for Monroe and low 1st or that Brooklyn didn't get D'Angelo Russell for Lopez.

I just made a post listing the recent history of Center signings and consequent trades, so I'm not sure why you're asking if I'm clairvoyant. Do you know he will be traded as an expiring? Do you know what his contract is? Are you clairvoyant? See, it's not a very constructive response, is it?

The track records are there, that's all I'm showing. It doesn't instil confidence that a fair value deal will be on the market. Doesn't mean it won't, but returns like Russell, Porzingis and even Bledsoe are the exception, not the norm. You can't plan for exceptions, you just get lucky with them.

And no, most of those returns aren't good. At all. Apart from the 3 above, the rest is a case of swapping bloated contract for bloated contract. Would you be happy with a future Vuc for the-future-equivalent-of-Carmelo-or-Rose? Or Vuc for a future equivalent of Valanciunas and a bench PG? That's not what you expect out of an investment that is very likely north of $20M a season.

[Bensational]

Your entire argument has been that Vucevic isn't that good and will have bad trade value if paid...but somehow you rationalize that he will get a $100m dollar contract. That entire argument is a contradiction.

Now, facing statistical evidence showing how effective he was all year long, your argument is that in a trade he won't get an equal player to those stats? Wow.

Vucevic will be at peak prime for at very least the first two years of his next contract. His skill set and health history are usually characteristics of bigs that age well and remain productive.

Some recent transactions involving big's:

...Marc Gasol who was owed remainder of (18-19) $24m + (19-20) $26m fully guaranteed just returned: a good emerging young PG (Delon Wright), a solid young C (Jonas Valenciunas), a solid 3-D vet bench wing on a cheap/short term contract (CJ Miles) and the 38th pick in 2019 draft.

...Brook Lopez + 27th pick got Brooklyn D'Angelo Russell

...Greg Monroe + heavily protected 1st (didn't convey in 2018 or 2019 drafts, protected top 8 in 2020) got Milwaukee Eric Bledsoe

Bigs, traditionally, don't fetch good trade value, and those 3 deals aren't really relevant to what Vuc's future situation would be.

Lopez - was an expiring contract, which was LA's primary interest.
Monroe - also expiring.
Gasol - was on a player option, but also traded for Val who's also on a player option and could walk. Wright and Miles isn't an exciting return.

Bigs have frequently highly paid and then they become albatross contracts that aren't easily moved. Here's a recent list of C's who have signed deals in the last 4 years, and the returns they generated if traded:

2015-16
Tyson Chandler (33), $13M (PHO)/ 2018 - waived by Phoenix
DeAndre Jordan (27), $19.5M (LAC)
B.Lopez (27), $20M (BKN)/ 2017 - traded with Kuzma for Mozgov + Russell
R.Lopez (27), $13M (NYK)/ 2016 - traded with Calderon and Jerian Grant to Chicago for Rose (huge contract), Holiday and a pick.
G.Monroe (25), $16.4M (MIL)/ 2017 - traded as expiring along with 1st round pick for Bledsoe
Kanter (23), $16.4M (OKC)/ 2017 - traded with McDermott for Carmello Anthony. 2019 - waived by Knicks.
M. Gasol (31), $19.7M (MEM)/ 2019 - traded for Miles, Valanciunas and Wright.


2016-17
Biyombo (24), $17M (ORL)/ 2018 - traded to Charlotte for Mozgov
Ian Mahinmi (30), $17M (WAS)
Whiteside (27), $22M (MIA)
Horford (30), $26.5M (BOS)
Mozgov (30), $17M (LAL)/ 2017 - traded with Russell for Lopez + Kuzma/ 2018 - traded for Dwight Howard (exp), then for Biyombo.
Noah (31), $17M (NYK)/ 2018 - waived by Knicks
Dwight Howard (31), $23M (ATL) / 2017 - traded to CHA for Miles Plumlee + Belinelli. 2018 - traded to BKN for Mozgov.
P. Gasol (36), $16M (SAS) / 2019 - waived by SAS
Drummond (23), $22M (DET)


2017-18
Ibaka (28), $20M (TOR)
Mason Plumlee (27), $14M (DEN)/ Season prior, traded for Nurkic.


2018-19
DeAndre Jordan (30), $24M (DAL)/ 2019 traded as expiring (team option) along with DSJR for Porzingis + Hardaway Jr
B.Lopez (30), $3M (MIL)
Nurkic (24), $11M (POR)


So as you can see, the only times C's returned value in trades was as expiring contracts, at extremely fortunate times (Lakers wanting capspace for Bron, Bledsoe wanting out of Phoenix, Knicks deciding to move on from Porzingis). Otherwise, C's have fetched very middling returns, and they're generally swapped for other C's on big contracts.

There is commonality in those bigs if you actually paid attention

Most all of them have little to no offensive skill/shooting ability outside P. Gasol/Horford/Lopez/M. Gasol...

All 4 of those bigs are on contending teams that are still in the playoffs as well and are mostly heavy/integral parts of their teams so that hurts the argument there (Pau is not playing though).

Edit: I forget to add Embiid/Jokic as well who are both 1st scoring options on their teams as well.

So its nonsense to say since all the remaining teams outside of Warriors/Blazers/Rockets have talented big men on their rosters.

What are you even talking about? Pau isn't active, and he's on a team that he signed with after he was waived by San Antonio. Marc is on a team that was a eastern contender before he even got there - and he came from a bottom 5 team prior to that (and the return they got for him wasn't very good for a player of his caliber). Lopez signed with the Bucks for $3M this season. Horford is the only player who's still playing for the team that signed him to a large deal. He's the only one of relevance.

What does any of that have to do with bigs retaining the value of the contracts they sign, and preserving trade eligibility in the future?

[MagicMatic]

Bigs, traditionally, don't fetch good trade value, and those 3 deals aren't really relevant to what Vuc's future situation would be.

Lopez - was an expiring contract, which was LA's primary interest.
Monroe - also expiring.
Gasol - was on a player option, but also traded for Val who's also on a player option and could walk. Wright and Miles isn't an exciting return.

Bigs have frequently highly paid and then they become albatross contracts that aren't easily moved. Here's a recent list of C's who have signed deals in the last 4 years, and the returns they generated if traded:

2015-16
Tyson Chandler (33), $13M (PHO)/ 2018 - waived by Phoenix
DeAndre Jordan (27), $19.5M (LAC)
B.Lopez (27), $20M (BKN)/ 2017 - traded with Kuzma for Mozgov + Russell
R.Lopez (27), $13M (NYK)/ 2016 - traded with Calderon and Jerian Grant to Chicago for Rose (huge contract), Holiday and a pick.
G.Monroe (25), $16.4M (MIL)/ 2017 - traded as expiring along with 1st round pick for Bledsoe
Kanter (23), $16.4M (OKC)/ 2017 - traded with McDermott for Carmello Anthony. 2019 - waived by Knicks.
M. Gasol (31), $19.7M (MEM)/ 2019 - traded for Miles, Valanciunas and Wright.


2016-17
Biyombo (24), $17M (ORL)/ 2018 - traded to Charlotte for Mozgov
Ian Mahinmi (30), $17M (WAS)
Whiteside (27), $22M (MIA)
Horford (30), $26.5M (BOS)
Mozgov (30), $17M (LAL)/ 2017 - traded with Russell for Lopez + Kuzma/ 2018 - traded for Dwight Howard (exp), then for Biyombo.
Noah (31), $17M (NYK)/ 2018 - waived by Knicks
Dwight Howard (31), $23M (ATL) / 2017 - traded to CHA for Miles Plumlee + Belinelli. 2018 - traded to BKN for Mozgov.
P. Gasol (36), $16M (SAS) / 2019 - waived by SAS
Drummond (23), $22M (DET)


2017-18
Ibaka (28), $20M (TOR)
Mason Plumlee (27), $14M (DEN)/ Season prior, traded for Nurkic.


2018-19
DeAndre Jordan (30), $24M (DAL)/ 2019 traded as expiring (team option) along with DSJR for Porzingis + Hardaway Jr
B.Lopez (30), $3M (MIL)
Nurkic (24), $11M (POR)


So as you can see, the only times C's returned value in trades was as expiring contracts, at extremely fortunate times (Lakers wanting capspace for Bron, Bledsoe wanting out of Phoenix, Knicks deciding to move on from Porzingis). Otherwise, C's have fetched very middling returns, and they're generally swapped for other C's on big contracts.

There is commonality in those bigs if you actually paid attention

Most all of them have little to no offensive skill/shooting ability outside P. Gasol/Horford/Lopez/M. Gasol...

All 4 of those bigs are on contending teams that are still in the playoffs as well and are mostly heavy/integral parts of their teams so that hurts the argument there (Pau is not playing though).

Edit: I forget to add Embiid/Jokic as well who are both 1st scoring options on their teams as well.

So its nonsense to say since all the remaining teams outside of Warriors/Blazers/Rockets have talented big men on their rosters.

What are you even talking about? Pau isn't active, and he's on a team that he signed with after he was waived by San Antonio. Marc is on a team that was a eastern contender before he even got there - and he came from a bottom 5 team prior to that (and the return they got for him wasn't very good for a player of his caliber). Lopez signed with the Bucks for $3M this season. Horford is the only player who's still playing for the team that signed him to a large deal. He's the only one of relevance.

What does any of that have to do with bigs retaining the value of the contracts they sign, and preserving trade eligibility in the future?

Horford is the only one you can legitimately have on the floor for the entirety of the game as well. He does everything well as a Center. Everyone else is a liability to an extent in the playoffs. Sixers and Nuggets sometimes even look better without their Centers on the floor.

[JF5]

There is commonality in those bigs if you actually paid attention

Most all of them have little to no offensive skill/shooting ability outside P. Gasol/Horford/Lopez/M. Gasol...

All 4 of those bigs are on contending teams that are still in the playoffs as well and are mostly heavy/integral parts of their teams so that hurts the argument there (Pau is not playing though).

Edit: I forget to add Embiid/Jokic as well who are both 1st scoring options on their teams as well.

So its nonsense to say since all the remaining teams outside of Warriors/Blazers/Rockets have talented big men on their rosters.

What are you even talking about? Pau isn't active, and he's on a team that he signed with after he was waived by San Antonio. Marc is on a team that was a eastern contender before he even got there - and he came from a bottom 5 team prior to that (and the return they got for him wasn't very good for a player of his caliber). Lopez signed with the Bucks for $3M this season. Horford is the only player who's still playing for the team that signed him to a large deal. He's the only one of relevance.

What does any of that have to do with bigs retaining the value of the contracts they sign, and preserving trade eligibility in the future?

Horford is the only one you can legitimately have on the floor for the entirety of the game as well. He does everything well as a Center. Everyone else is a liability to an extent in the playoffs. Sixers and Nuggets sometimes even look better without their Centers on the floor.

So you're telling me teams like Sixers and Nuggets are better when Jokic and Embiid are not playing?

Boy I guess you can replace these guys with mid-level bigs like Whiteside and you'd get the same level of team success right?

I understand the "liability aspect" but every great team has a player that is a liability defensively. Could be a center could be any body. But if you have guys who are smart enough/quick enough you're able to for the most part hide his deficiency.

[JF5]

Bigs, traditionally, don't fetch good trade value, and those 3 deals aren't really relevant to what Vuc's future situation would be.

Lopez - was an expiring contract, which was LA's primary interest.
Monroe - also expiring.
Gasol - was on a player option, but also traded for Val who's also on a player option and could walk. Wright and Miles isn't an exciting return.

Bigs have frequently highly paid and then they become albatross contracts that aren't easily moved. Here's a recent list of C's who have signed deals in the last 4 years, and the returns they generated if traded:

2015-16
Tyson Chandler (33), $13M (PHO)/ 2018 - waived by Phoenix
DeAndre Jordan (27), $19.5M (LAC)
B.Lopez (27), $20M (BKN)/ 2017 - traded with Kuzma for Mozgov + Russell
R.Lopez (27), $13M (NYK)/ 2016 - traded with Calderon and Jerian Grant to Chicago for Rose (huge contract), Holiday and a pick.
G.Monroe (25), $16.4M (MIL)/ 2017 - traded as expiring along with 1st round pick for Bledsoe
Kanter (23), $16.4M (OKC)/ 2017 - traded with McDermott for Carmello Anthony. 2019 - waived by Knicks.
M. Gasol (31), $19.7M (MEM)/ 2019 - traded for Miles, Valanciunas and Wright.


2016-17
Biyombo (24), $17M (ORL)/ 2018 - traded to Charlotte for Mozgov
Ian Mahinmi (30), $17M (WAS)
Whiteside (27), $22M (MIA)
Horford (30), $26.5M (BOS)
Mozgov (30), $17M (LAL)/ 2017 - traded with Russell for Lopez + Kuzma/ 2018 - traded for Dwight Howard (exp), then for Biyombo.
Noah (31), $17M (NYK)/ 2018 - waived by Knicks
Dwight Howard (31), $23M (ATL) / 2017 - traded to CHA for Miles Plumlee + Belinelli. 2018 - traded to BKN for Mozgov.
P. Gasol (36), $16M (SAS) / 2019 - waived by SAS
Drummond (23), $22M (DET)


2017-18
Ibaka (28), $20M (TOR)
Mason Plumlee (27), $14M (DEN)/ Season prior, traded for Nurkic.


2018-19
DeAndre Jordan (30), $24M (DAL)/ 2019 traded as expiring (team option) along with DSJR for Porzingis + Hardaway Jr
B.Lopez (30), $3M (MIL)
Nurkic (24), $11M (POR)


So as you can see, the only times C's returned value in trades was as expiring contracts, at extremely fortunate times (Lakers wanting capspace for Bron, Bledsoe wanting out of Phoenix, Knicks deciding to move on from Porzingis). Otherwise, C's have fetched very middling returns, and they're generally swapped for other C's on big contracts.

There is commonality in those bigs if you actually paid attention

Most all of them have little to no offensive skill/shooting ability outside P. Gasol/Horford/Lopez/M. Gasol...

All 4 of those bigs are on contending teams that are still in the playoffs as well and are mostly heavy/integral parts of their teams so that hurts the argument there (Pau is not playing though).

Edit: I forget to add Embiid/Jokic as well who are both 1st scoring options on their teams as well.

So its nonsense to say since all the remaining teams outside of Warriors/Blazers/Rockets have talented big men on their rosters.

What are you even talking about? Pau isn't active, and he's on a team that he signed with after he was waived by San Antonio. Marc is on a team that was a eastern contender before he even got there - and he came from a bottom 5 team prior to that (and the return they got for him wasn't very good for a player of his caliber). Lopez signed with the Bucks for $3M this season. Horford is the only player who's still playing for the team that signed him to a large deal. He's the only one of relevance.

What does any of that have to do with bigs retaining the value of the contracts they sign, and preserving trade eligibility in the future?

That's part of my point... If these guys weren't so valued they wouldn't be signed or traded for by these contenders. The fact that these guys are on contenders and are positive impact players on not only contending teas but GREAT defensive teams shows that your Big/C doesn't have to be this super athletic guy for you to compete in this league which in turn gives them value. Its the sweeping generalization that I have a problem with and with this being debunked currently with Embiid and Jokicl that this ideology is flawed.

[Catledge]

Ben's detailed post shows pretty significant evidence that centers don't bring great returns in trades, but those examples also show that those centers were still movable. So it's fair to say that we shouldn't expect a franchise-changing talent in return for Vooch, but it's also fair to say that Vooch is unlikely to become an untradeable albatross.

I don't really see the sense in people who want to accept being bad for the next two years to protect against the possibility of being bad three and four years from now. That would be a massive sacrifice to protect against an unlikely danger, a danger that is at worst equal to that sacrifice.

EDIT: missing word in the first sentence

[MagicMatic]

What are you even talking about? Pau isn't active, and he's on a team that he signed with after he was waived by San Antonio. Marc is on a team that was a eastern contender before he even got there - and he came from a bottom 5 team prior to that (and the return they got for him wasn't very good for a player of his caliber). Lopez signed with the Bucks for $3M this season. Horford is the only player who's still playing for the team that signed him to a large deal. He's the only one of relevance.

What does any of that have to do with bigs retaining the value of the contracts they sign, and preserving trade eligibility in the future?

Horford is the only one you can legitimately have on the floor for the entirety of the game as well. He does everything well as a Center. Everyone else is a liability to an extent in the playoffs. Sixers and Nuggets sometimes even look better without their Centers on the floor.

So you're telling me teams like Sixers and Nuggets are better when Jokic and Embiid are not playing?

Boy I guess you can replace these guys with mid-level bigs like Whiteside and you'd get the same level of team success right?

I understand the "liability aspect" but every great team has a player that is a liability defensively. Could be a center could be any body. But if you have guys who are smart enough/quick enough you're able to for the most part hide his deficiency.

They have looked better at times. But again, that’s two examples surrounded by talent.

[Skin]

What makes Kelly Oubre have an edge?

Talk to any Suns fan. They want to keep him badly. Here's why. So much swag.

Watch on YouTube

There's a lot to digest here. I don't know why anyone wouldn't want him here.

[ezzzp]

Gobert is in most of them and no one considers him near a top-10 top-15 player

Gobert is only in a few and everyone knows he's not the focus of defenses every night like Vucevic is. Plus Gobert was DPOY and ALL NBA (2nd Team) prior year...so even at that many people at the top of their field consider Gobert one of the best in NBA.

Vucevic was in ALL of those stats + anchored a top 8 defense and was 6th in DRPM in entire NBA. The statistical evidence is there for Vucevic, as is the professional expert assessment. I'm not going to ignore that.

show the stats you want, Vuc is NOT a top-15 player.

Durant, Curry, Lebron, Lillard, CJ, Harden, Giannis, Beal, Irving, George, Jokic, Oladipo, Kawhi, KAT, Embiid, Simmons, AD, I would all consider better players than Vuc.

Horford, Blake, Aldridge, Derozan, Dangelo, Doncic, Conley, Mitchell, Booker, Westbrook, Jrue, Middleton, Kemba, Klay, - I would consider on the same tier as Vuc.

top 15 this season was whats being discussed- Oladipo
didn’t even play this season

[Skin]

Ben's detailed post shows pretty significant evidence that centers don't bring great returns in trades, but those examples also show that those centers were still movable. So it's fair to say that we shouldn't expect a franchise-changing talent in return for Vooch, but it's also fair to say that Vooch is unlikely to become an untradeable albatross.

I don't really see the sense in people who want to accept being bad for the next two years to protect against the possibility of being bad three and four years from now. That would be a massive sacrifice to protect against an unlikely danger, a danger that is at worst equal to that sacrifice.

EDIT: missing word in the first sentence

Losing Vuc doesn't mean we have to accept being bad. This is preached way too much!

[Skin]

Gobert is only in a few and everyone knows he's not the focus of defenses every night like Vucevic is. Plus Gobert was DPOY and ALL NBA (2nd Team) prior year...so even at that many people at the top of their field consider Gobert one of the best in NBA.

Vucevic was in ALL of those stats + anchored a top 8 defense and was 6th in DRPM in entire NBA. The statistical evidence is there for Vucevic, as is the professional expert assessment. I'm not going to ignore that.

show the stats you want, Vuc is NOT a top-15 player.

Durant, Curry, Lebron, Lillard, CJ, Harden, Giannis, Beal, Irving, George, Jokic, Oladipo, Kawhi, KAT, Embiid, Simmons, AD, I would all consider better players than Vuc.

Horford, Blake, Aldridge, Derozan, Dangelo, Doncic, Conley, Mitchell, Booker, Westbrook, Jrue, Middleton, Kemba, Klay, - I would consider on the same tier as Vuc.

top 15 this season was whats being discussed- Oladipo
didn’t even play this season

Top 15? You're still trying to debate this? Calling me bias at this point is just absurd.

If he's Top 15, can he be traded for another Top 15 player?