Moderators: Knightro, Howard Mass, UCFJayBird, Def Swami, ChosenSavior, SOUL, UCF
Skin wrote:Def Swami wrote:What makes Kelly Oubre have an edge?
Talk to any Suns fan. They want to keep him badly. Here's why. So much swag.
There's a lot to digest here. I don't know why anyone wouldn't want him here.
Skin wrote:ezzzp wrote:tiderulz wrote:show the stats you want, Vuc is NOT a top-15 player.
Durant, Curry, Lebron, Lillard, CJ, Harden, Giannis, Beal, Irving, George, Jokic, Oladipo, Kawhi, KAT, Embiid, Simmons, AD, I would all consider better players than Vuc.
Horford, Blake, Aldridge, Derozan, Dangelo, Doncic, Conley, Mitchell, Booker, Westbrook, Jrue, Middleton, Kemba, Klay, - I would consider on the same tier as Vuc.
top 15 this season was whats being discussed- Oladipo
didn’t even play this season
Top 15? You're still trying to debate this? Calling me bias at this point is just absurd.
If he's Top 15, can he be traded for another Top 15 player?
JF5 wrote:Bensational wrote:JF5 wrote:
There is commonality in those bigs if you actually paid attention
Most all of them have little to no offensive skill/shooting ability outside P. Gasol/Horford/Lopez/M. Gasol...
All 4 of those bigs are on contending teams that are still in the playoffs as well and are mostly heavy/integral parts of their teams so that hurts the argument there
Edit: I forget to add Embiid/Jokic as well who are both 1st scoring options on their teams as well.
So its nonsense to say since all the remaining teams outside of Warriors/Blazers/Rockets have talented big men on their rosters.
What are you even talking about? Pau isn't active, and he's on a team that he signed with after he was waived by San Antonio. Marc is on a team that was a eastern contender before he even got there - and he came from a bottom 5 team prior to that (and the return they got for him wasn't very good for a player of his caliber). Lopez signed with the Bucks for $3M this season. Horford is the only player who's still playing for the team that signed him to a large deal. He's the only one of relevance.
What does any of that have to do with bigs retaining the value of the contracts they sign, and preserving trade eligibility in the future?
That's part of my point... If these guys weren't so valued they wouldn't be signed or traded for by these contenders. The fact that these guys are on contenders and are positive impact players on not only contending teas but GREAT defensive teams shows that your Big/C doesn't have to be this super athletic guy for you to compete in this league which in turn gives them value. Its the sweeping generalization that I have a problem with and with this being debunked currently with Embiid and Jokicl that this ideology is flawed.
pepe1991 wrote:Jokić, Embiid , younger Gasol bros... yes this year Vučević played like he is that level of player. Difference is that every single one of them always had at least 1 good guard or wing to play with. Vučević had and still has non. That's why it makes all the sense in the world, after we resign him ( and that's what's going to happen , regardless of crying on internet ), to package Bamba and 16# pick and Mozgov for big guard upgrade like Holiday.
As for Oubre, guy isn't terrible ,but belongs in that Rodney Hood, Will Barton category of players that lack basketball IQ to be anything more than sparks off bench. Guy's BPM for career is fat negative on both sides, he does not help your offense or defense, his TS% is mediocre (53,5%).
ezzzp wrote:Skin wrote:ezzzp wrote:
top 15 this season was whats being discussed- Oladipo
didn’t even play this season
Top 15? You're still trying to debate this? Calling me bias at this point is just absurd.
If he's Top 15, can he be traded for another Top 15 player?
that’s the silliest production assessment I have ever heard - it’s not fantasy league being discussed
what is absurd is your denial of the stats and nba coaches opinions
Skin wrote:pepe1991 wrote:Jokić, Embiid , younger Gasol bros... yes this year Vučević played like he is that level of player. Difference is that every single one of them always had at least 1 good guard or wing to play with. Vučević had and still has non. That's why it makes all the sense in the world, after we resign him ( and that's what's going to happen , regardless of crying on internet ), to package Bamba and 16# pick and Mozgov for big guard upgrade like Holiday.
As for Oubre, guy isn't terrible ,but belongs in that Rodney Hood, Will Barton category of players that lack basketball IQ to be anything more than sparks off bench. Guy's BPM for career is fat negative on both sides, he does not help your offense or defense, his TS% is mediocre (53,5%).
If you're gonna use stats at least put things into context. Oubre did not have a good career in his earlier years. He's just starting to emerge so that's also why he's not being talked about as one of the most coveted FAs of the summer. He's still got stuff to prove, but if he does, he becomes even more of a valuable contract. Significant upside, but whatever. I can see that you only like your own ideas. You don't have to like him, like you didn't like Trae Young, Aaron Gordon, Jonathan Isaac or Mo Bamba. The only guys you've passionately defended are Hezonja, Fournier and Vucevic.
He's still got stuff to prove, but if he does, he becomes even more of a valuable contract.
You don't have to like him, like you didn't like Trae Young, Aaron Gordon, Jonathan Isaac or Mo Bamba.
The only guys you've passionately defended are Hezonja, Fournier and Vucevic.
( talking about offensive production ... ).
m just giving you a hard time.I know you've loved Doncic the longest here.
He's good in Europe, but I don't think he can be a star in the NBA without elite athleticism or length at his position. I think he can be crafty like Manu Ginobili or Evan Fournier, but it will be hard for him to translate his success into becoming an NBA superstar.
pepe1991 wrote:Skin wrote:pepe1991 wrote:Jokić, Embiid , younger Gasol bros... yes this year Vučević played like he is that level of player. Difference is that every single one of them always had at least 1 good guard or wing to play with. Vučević had and still has non. That's why it makes all the sense in the world, after we resign him ( and that's what's going to happen , regardless of crying on internet ), to package Bamba and 16# pick and Mozgov for big guard upgrade like Holiday.
As for Oubre, guy isn't terrible ,but belongs in that Rodney Hood, Will Barton category of players that lack basketball IQ to be anything more than sparks off bench. Guy's BPM for career is fat negative on both sides, he does not help your offense or defense, his TS% is mediocre (53,5%).
If you're gonna use stats at least put things into context. Oubre did not have a good career in his earlier years. He's just starting to emerge so that's also why he's not being talked about as one of the most coveted FAs of the summer. He's still got stuff to prove, but if he does, he becomes even more of a valuable contract. Significant upside, but whatever. I can see that you only like your own ideas. You don't have to like him, like you didn't like Trae Young, Aaron Gordon, Jonathan Isaac or Mo Bamba. The only guys you've passionately defended are Hezonja, Fournier and Vucevic.
Oubre played 3 out of 4 years on teams with .500+ record.
He isn't terrible, but isn't anything special.
Based on true plus minus, he is ranked 42# among SFs. 40# by TS and 15 by PER .
He is also SF so where you gonna play him in starting line up ? Over Gordon or over Isaac ? Because you can't put career 32% 3 point shooter at SG.
He shot 29% in catch and shoots 3s for Wizards and 32% in catch and shoots for Suns. That's your context there.He's still got stuff to prove, but if he does, he becomes even more of a valuable contract.
He is aslo restricted free agent, and when James Jones, Suns new GM was asked about Oubre last week this is what he said " Suns are looking to keep. “I’ve said before, we love Kelly,” Jones said. “We want Kelly here.”"
So he will probably be expensive , in order to push Suns into not matching offer.You don't have to like him, like you didn't like Trae Young, Aaron Gordon, Jonathan Isaac or Mo Bamba.
Trae is 3 point specialist who never, at any competition shot better than 34% for 3, he also never played on team that was competitive or in position to ever win anything. Just him YOLO-ing contested 3s on bad teams.
Gordon still belongs in that Rudy Gay, Thad Young , Paul Millsap role player -C level star category i predicted 3 years ago.
Isaac still can't score guarded by nobody.
I liked Bamba before draft. It's not my fault that his rookie year played out this way. Only fools wanted him to start last year ,because they can't wrap their heads around strenght, conditioning and durability needed to play 82 min- 30 mpg.The only guys you've passionately defended are Hezonja, Fournier and Vucevic.
Defended Hez through rookie year, pretty much gave up on him in second. Like everybody esle.
Never liked of defended Evan up until last 2 months. I just find hilarious that he "sucks and needs to be traded" while guy was playing season simlar to best season Gordon ever had, and same posters who claimed Evan needs to be traded, were yelling how Gordon improved
Vučević is so much better than anybody else that it's pointless to even defend him. 21-12-4-1-1 ,allstar. Now there are some who are so blinded with pure hate for 5 years that they can't admit how wrong they were about him but heeeySpoiler:
July 1 can't come fast enough to sit, eat popcorns and enjoy all the moaning after Vučević gets his well deserved 3-4 years contract.
pepe1991 wrote:And Skin ,let's just remind people about your expert analytics on last year's draftm just giving you a hard time.
He's good in Europe, but I don't think he can be a star in the NBA without elite athleticism or length at his position. I think he can be crafty like Manu Ginobili or Evan Fournier, but it will be hard for him to translate his success into becoming an NBA superstar.
You were also drooling about Mikal Bridges and fighting posters who said he doesn't have star potential
But hey, up until last year ,and debate about Trae Young, you didn't know that FGA on foul does not count in box score if it doesn't go in so yea....
Skin wrote:pepe1991 wrote:And Skin ,let's just remind people about your expert analytics on last year's draftm just giving you a hard time.
He's good in Europe, but I don't think he can be a star in the NBA without elite athleticism or length at his position. I think he can be crafty like Manu Ginobili or Evan Fournier, but it will be hard for him to translate his success into becoming an NBA superstar.
You were also drooling about Mikal Bridges and fighting posters who said he doesn't have star potential
But hey, up until last year ,and debate about Trae Young, you didn't know that FGA on foul does not count in box score if it doesn't go in so yea....
Oh please... you criminally misuse stats to support bias opinion... that's 100 times worse than a brain fart.
Bridges story is yet to be written. I'll call you out for being wrong, but I don't mind giving people props when their right, so kudos for being one of the million people who thought Doncic was gonna be good. Glad you thought so highly of my compliment that you found a way to dig it up or save it or whatever you did with it. I like that.
) so i did the same.
ezzzp wrote:tiderulz wrote:ezzzp wrote:
Gobert is only in a few and everyone knows he's not the focus of defenses every night like Vucevic is. Plus Gobert was DPOY and ALL NBA (2nd Team) prior year...so even at that many people at the top of their field consider Gobert one of the best in NBA.
Vucevic was in ALL of those stats + anchored a top 8 defense and was 6th in DRPM in entire NBA. The statistical evidence is there for Vucevic, as is the professional expert assessment. I'm not going to ignore that.
show the stats you want, Vuc is NOT a top-15 player.
Durant, Curry, Lebron, Lillard, CJ, Harden, Giannis, Beal, Irving, George, Jokic, Oladipo, Kawhi, KAT, Embiid, Simmons, AD, I would all consider better players than Vuc.
Horford, Blake, Aldridge, Derozan, Dangelo, Doncic, Conley, Mitchell, Booker, Westbrook, Jrue, Middleton, Kemba, Klay, - I would consider on the same tier as Vuc.
top 15 this season was whats being discussed- Oladipo
didn’t even play this season
pepe1991 wrote:And Skin ,let's just remind people about your expert analytics on last year's draftm just giving you a hard time.
He's good in Europe, but I don't think he can be a star in the NBA without elite athleticism or length at his position. I think he can be crafty like Manu Ginobili or Evan Fournier, but it will be hard for him to translate his success into becoming an NBA superstar.
You were also drooling about Mikal Bridges and fighting posters who said he doesn't have star potential
But hey, up until last year ,and debate about Trae Young, you didn't know that FGA on foul does not count in box score if it doesn't go in so yea....
tiderulz wrote:pepe1991 wrote:And Skin ,let's just remind people about your expert analytics on last year's draftm just giving you a hard time.
He's good in Europe, but I don't think he can be a star in the NBA without elite athleticism or length at his position. I think he can be crafty like Manu Ginobili or Evan Fournier, but it will be hard for him to translate his success into becoming an NBA superstar.
You were also drooling about Mikal Bridges and fighting posters who said he doesn't have star potential
But hey, up until last year ,and debate about Trae Young, you didn't know that FGA on foul does not count in box score if it doesn't go in so yea....
to be fair, you trashed on Young and he has turned out pretty good so far.
BadMofoPimp wrote:Durant thinks Vooch is one of the Best Centers in the NBA. I will take his word over a couch-GM yelling at a TV.
)...I hope to keep Ross at a moderate raise or lose him to a bad organization willing to overpay and wrongly project him as a 20ppg starter. He was utilized perfectly this past year. I believe that is his ceiling -and it's a good one...but not one that projects to "Star". Skybox wrote:Oubre could be Ross without the great personality and selfless nature (not referring to shot selection-that's his job
Skin wrote:Catledge wrote:Ben's detailed post shows pretty significant evidence that centers don't bring great returns in trades, but those examples also show that those centers were still movable. So it's fair to say that we shouldn't expect a franchise-changing talent in return for Vooch, but it's also fair to say that Vooch is unlikely to become an untradeable albatross.
I don't really see the sense in people who want to accept being bad for the next two years to protect against the possibility of being bad three and four years from now. That would be a massive sacrifice to protect against an unlikely danger, a danger that is at worst equal to that sacrifice.
EDIT: missing word in the first sentence
Losing Vuc doesn't mean we have to accept being bad. This is preached way too much!
Skin wrote:pepe1991 wrote:Skin wrote:If you're gonna use stats at least put things into context. Oubre did not have a good career in his earlier years. He's just starting to emerge so that's also why he's not being talked about as one of the most coveted FAs of the summer. He's still got stuff to prove, but if he does, he becomes even more of a valuable contract. Significant upside, but whatever. I can see that you only like your own ideas. You don't have to like him, like you didn't like Trae Young, Aaron Gordon, Jonathan Isaac or Mo Bamba. The only guys you've passionately defended are Hezonja, Fournier and Vucevic.
Oubre played 3 out of 4 years on teams with .500+ record.
He isn't terrible, but isn't anything special.
Based on true plus minus, he is ranked 42# among SFs. 40# by TS and 15 by PER .
He is also SF so where you gonna play him in starting line up ? Over Gordon or over Isaac ? Because you can't put career 32% 3 point shooter at SG.
He shot 29% in catch and shoots 3s for Wizards and 32% in catch and shoots for Suns. That's your context there.He's still got stuff to prove, but if he does, he becomes even more of a valuable contract.
He is aslo restricted free agent, and when James Jones, Suns new GM was asked about Oubre last week this is what he said " Suns are looking to keep. “I’ve said before, we love Kelly,” Jones said. “We want Kelly here.”"
So he will probably be expensive , in order to push Suns into not matching offer.You don't have to like him, like you didn't like Trae Young, Aaron Gordon, Jonathan Isaac or Mo Bamba.
Trae is 3 point specialist who never, at any competition shot better than 34% for 3, he also never played on team that was competitive or in position to ever win anything. Just him YOLO-ing contested 3s on bad teams.
Gordon still belongs in that Rudy Gay, Thad Young , Paul Millsap role player -C level star category i predicted 3 years ago.
Isaac still can't score guarded by nobody.
I liked Bamba before draft. It's not my fault that his rookie year played out this way. Only fools wanted him to start last year ,because they can't wrap their heads around strenght, conditioning and durability needed to play 82 min- 30 mpg.The only guys you've passionately defended are Hezonja, Fournier and Vucevic.
Defended Hez through rookie year, pretty much gave up on him in second. Like everybody esle.
Never liked of defended Evan up until last 2 months. I just find hilarious that he "sucks and needs to be traded" while guy was playing season simlar to best season Gordon ever had, and same posters who claimed Evan needs to be traded, were yelling how Gordon improved
Vučević is so much better than anybody else that it's pointless to even defend him. 21-12-4-1-1 ,allstar. Now there are some who are so blinded with pure hate for 5 years that they can't admit how wrong they were about him but heeeySpoiler:
July 1 can't come fast enough to sit, eat popcorns and enjoy all the moaning after Vučević gets his well deserved 3-4 years contract.
Use the same logic on Vuc... How many years has he been on a team with a sub .500 record?
Don't worry, I heard all this fuss before about a guy who didn't prove everything yet, so the fans gave up on him. *cough Oladipo cough*
You want a guy that checks every single box? Pay him $30M a year. We're talking about spending half that.
Vucevic is the next guy we overpay, but at least we get to enjoy 1st round playoff exits.
Skin wrote:pepe1991 wrote:MagicMatic wrote:
It says people believe he needs to be in a Magic uniform for a decade before we can truly compete in free agency.
Look, I get retaining the asset, but what does his trade value even look like with most likely the largest contract he will get in his career. All while not being a first or second option on a true contender? He’s only more valuable to Orlando because of what we lack, not because he’s actually providing that in other systems.
Production and value isn’t 1:1 for every team. This isn’t NBA2k.
Again ( and again, and again, and again.....) Magic will have same amount of money to spend on free agents with or without Vučević.
This is the problem when fans get a hold of the books. Everything is short sighted. Yes, with or without Vuc, the Magic have the same amount to spend THIS offseason. But what about next offseason, or the season after that or the season after that or who knows how long his deal will be... There are repercussion for signing Vuc to a huge deal that go beyond just THIS offseason.
If his contract is so big that he becomes untradeable, then that is a bad deal for us that will set us back another half a decade.
