How far is Jokic from the Goat offensive bigs?

[GSP]

Kareem, Shaq, Chuck, Dirk, Sabas, Hakeem, Moses, Karl......how far is he realistically?

Hes already led a top 5 offense and then b2b #6 offenses. Outside of 17 when he had Gallo and this season with Murray his teams have mostly been a collective of strong defensive role players. Not alot of offensive talent

Most here already consider him the Goat big passer. Hes a great finisher. Great shooter from everywhere. Great offensive rebounder. Great pickandroll/pop player as the ballhandler or roller. Great screens. Great post game. He doesnt have any weaknesses offensively TBH

Hes having a legendary postseason. Only Magic has had more triple doubles in their first postseason (hes 1 away from tying).

24/12.5/9 on 59ts

[Winsome Gerbil]

Whoa. A guy makes an All Star game and the sky is the limit.

Well, if the player you described actually existed I might have to agree. And parts of him do. But that player is also a low volume guy, which makes the efficiency much easier. He doesn't draw many fouls. And you are really asking the passing ability to make up a ton of ground vis a vis the all time scary offensive centers. Indeed I think what you could say about Jokic and his passing is that its a gap in mentality as much as anything. He scores 20, but dishes out on another half dozen possessions a game that great offensive centers of the past would have taken themselves instead. And there are problems with both era and pace here. Its a big fluid open run run game now, without much size or traffic in the middle. I will vouch for the talent of today's centers, but you have to watch the numbers being put up this season.

His passing attack certainly gives him a case to be considered amongst the great offensive weapons, but there is a lack of reliable gotoness to his game that is a bit problematic at that level. "Throw it to Jokic and let him beat them" isn't really a thing. At least not consistently. He's still as likely to score 15 as he is 30. These playoffs are maybe important to establishing that kind of mentality, but he's also played against some of the worst center defenders in the game. Notably he and Nurkic have played to a near draw over the years. In fact per minute Nurkic may even have won them. An injured Enes Kanter isn't quite the same challenge.

[GYK]

he has a case for most complete offensive big. not really a scorer. above says likely to score 15 as much as 30 but really more so likely to score 15. he has 20 games 30 and above in his career. your not looking at a scorer. yet no hole. its going to be interesting on how they build around. ideally you want a similar team around him as he has now. enough talent to be able to score off the pass but not enough to demand less touches from a uber high touches player.

[No-more-rings]

I’d still like to see him against more variety of defenses, but based on this season I don’t think he’s that far off from Dirk or Chuck.

[Dr Spaceman]

He’s been great. I’m gonna reserve judgement until I see him against either the Warriors or Rockets. Watching this 2nd round it is very VERY obvious to me that these two teams just are at a different level from the whole rest of the NBA. Jokic relies a lot on defenses making mistakes and I want to see him do his thing against one fo the two defenses that don’t make any mistakes.

[Prokorov]

Kareem, Shaq, Chuck, Dirk, Sabas, Hakeem, Moses, Karl......how far is he realistically?

Hes already led a top 5 offense and then b2b #6 offenses. Outside of 17 when he had Gallo and this season with Murray his teams have mostly been a collective of strong defensive role players. Not alot of offensive talent

Most here already consider him the Goat big passer. Hes a great finisher. Great shooter from everywhere. Great offensive rebounder. Great pickandroll/pop player as the ballhandler or roller. Great screens. Great post game. He doesnt have any weaknesses offensively TBH

Hes having a legendary postseason. Only Magic has had more triple doubles in their first postseason (hes 1 away from tying).

24/12.5/9 on 59ts

Throw out triple doubles... they are irrelevant. 24/10/10 is not better then 100/100/9. there is nothing special about it, other then that we organize in think in base 10.

not take away from what he has done as a playmaker. 24/12/9 is great, but to me it does match up with say, what barkley did to the sonics in the west finals.

[countryboy667]

Kareem, Shaq, Chuck, Dirk, Sabas, Hakeem, Moses, Karl......how far is he realistically?

Hes already led a top 5 offense and then b2b #6 offenses. Outside of 17 when he had Gallo and this season with Murray his teams have mostly been a collective of strong defensive role players. Not alot of offensive talent

Most here already consider him the Goat big passer. Hes a great finisher. Great shooter from everywhere. Great offensive rebounder. Great pickandroll/pop player as the ballhandler or roller. Great screens. Great post game. He doesnt have any weaknesses offensively TBH

Hes having a legendary postseason. Only Magic has had more triple doubles in their first postseason (hes 1 away from tying).

24/12.5/9 on 59ts

How anyone can make a list like that and not have Wilt somewhere in it is an abomination.

The only big I see today who would be fit wash the jockstraps of any of those you named--and certainly not even fit to do that for Wilt--is Embiid. He's the only one who wouldn't get destroyed by many/most of the primo bigs of the past.

[NinjaSheppard]

He is top 2 and he isn't 2

[eminence]

Already there vote from me. He's on a completely different level as a passer from any other NBA big. Sure he gets the Nash 'he's not aggressive enough' treatment, but he's been plenty aggressive in anything resembling a playoff game.

[The High Cyde]

From what I've seen of him, yes he is the GOAT passing center I've ever seen.

But that's the problem here for me, I haven't seen other centers that would even enter the discussion.

Take Wilt for example, there's a season where he put up absurd assist numbers (I think it's the highest in history for a center, 8.6 to Jokic's 7.3), Wilt the Stilt was diming people up back in the day. Yet this does not mean he was a better offensive big than Jokic who is a natural play-maker, he doesn't necessarily pass the rock for assists, he passes so his team scores when the defense is caught slipping. But I haven't seen Wilt play day in and day out, to break down how he passes the rock. I know what I'm getting with Jokic cause I've seen the dude tear defenses apart by his passing. Maybe Wilt was using his body to get deep in the paint, dribble a few times, fake a shot, then pass it to a mini dude for a quick bucket. There's value in that, but after a while you realize that doesn't necessarily raise the offensive value of the team as evidenced when he averaged less assists and less points per game. But again here, the defenses and offenses are so vastly different across these decades, it practically negates any comparison of the offensive value of Jokic to the Centers from way back when.

The way Jokic plays is just different than the past centers of yesteryear's. They weren't expected to pass the ball, they were expected to get in the paint, catch the ball, and score. If no bucket is available then they'd pass. It's a different mentality now. The pendulum has shifted towards guards rather than centers.

Another great big, Dwight Howard, was a monster of an offensive player. Yet we don't even need to discuss him here because we all know he's not in Jokic's realm as an offensive hub. No one is scared of Jokic in the paint like Dwight on the offensive end, but he's more cerebral, he's much more calculated, thus he's harder to stop.

To take it to another extreme, consider Dwight Howard on steroids...The Big Diesel, probably the greatest offensive big in the history of the game (at least up there with Wilt...but idk I've seen Wilt spam unstoppable fadeaways ala Durant lmao how crazy is that?!), and we all know Shaq was the reason some centers weren't cleaning windows on high-rises or something, teams got people off the street to basically foul the crap outta him. Plus he was nimble, he had light feet, and he would pass when he wanted (he was capable for sure) and he was as dominant as they come. Does that mean he's a better offensive big than Jokic?

I think the answer for me will be that we need to see more of Jokic in the playoffs against defenses that game plan for him; through these first two series, I am inclined to say he's the best I've seen so far, but I can't say with sure fire certainty that he's the best in history. It's just very difficult to compare, he's a unicorn in a world where traditional centers are being phased out almost.

When the pendulum swings back towards centers, if at all, we'll get a better picture I think.

[HeartBreakKid]

His passing is so sick that it really makes up for his lack of volume. He also has a really versatile scoring game, he is up there.

A lot of people came late on the Jokic train so they are naturally less open to accepting how special he is, but the guy has been a stud since his first year - where he was better than someone like KAT. If he had the hype of KAT coming into the NBA and had the exact seasons there would be many more threads like this.


As for my pick, no, havent really seen how good he can be when he plays with other good teammates - the nuggets have too low of a ceiling to get an accurate picture of what Jokic can bring. As of now, the nuggets are really reliant on him - some nice players, but most of them wouldn't be stories on other teams. So I know Jokic is a legit offensive hub, but not enough evidence for me to say he's the goat.

[bledredwine]

Not there. The other guys had a much bigger arsenal with much more athleticism, to boot.

Many were way better defenders.

Keep improving though.

[Basileus777]

I need to see him break down a top tier defense in the postseason before I can start thinking of him on quite that level.

Whoa. A guy makes an All Star game and the sky is the limit.

Well, if the player you described actually existed I might have to agree. And parts of him do. But that player is also a low volume guy, which makes the efficiency much easier. He doesn't draw many fouls. And you are really asking the passing ability to make up a ton of ground vis a vis the all time scary offensive centers. Indeed I think what you could say about Jokic and his passing is that its a gap in mentality as much as anything. He scores 20, but dishes out on another half dozen possessions a game that great offensive centers of the past would have taken themselves instead. And there are problems with both era and pace here. Its a big fluid open run run game now, without much size or traffic in the middle. I will vouch for the talent of today's centers, but you have to watch the numbers being put up this season.

I don't think this is a good descriptor of his game though. What he is doing is not dishing "out on another half dozen possessions a game that great offensive centers of the past would have taken themselves instead." He touches the ball more than any other player in the league and is the entire hub and focal point of their offense. He is a very high usage player performing a role that is usually reserved for a select few guards. He's more comparable to an elite passing point guard that isn't a super high volume scorer.

[Mickey8]

Not there. The other guys had a much bigger arsenal with much more athleticism, to boot.

Many were way better defenders.

Keep improving though.

Jokic have complete offensive game , post ups ,mid range ,three point shot , driving to the basket, I dont know what the hell you thinking by others have "bigger arsenal" than him If he wanted to take 20 attempts per game he would easily be 25 ppg scorer.At some point in his career he will have seasons like that . He's proving that in the play offs , that he can have those averages . What athleticism got to do with scoring, you want to claim that Dwight Howard had better and more diverse offensive game than Jokic

[bledredwine]

Not there. The other guys had a much bigger arsenal with much more athleticism, to boot.

Many were way better defenders.

Keep improving though.

Jokic have complete offensive game , post ups ,mid range ,three point shot , driving to the basket, I dont know what the hell you thinking by others have "bigger arsenal" than him If he wanted to take 20 attempts per game he would easily be 25 ppg scorer.At some point in his career he will have seasons like that . He's proving that in the play offs , that he can have those averages . What athleticism got to do with scoring, you want to claim that Dwight Howard had better and more diverse offensive game than Jokic

No.

[Logic Baller]

Defense and rim protection isn’t even close, and this is very important when talking about GOAT bigs.

Although I must admit in the GOAT big era Jokic would likely be a power forward paired with another defense only center.

In that era Jokic would play a role somewhat similar to Bird. In fact, to me this proves how great Larry Bird really was—Bird is a much more athletic version of Jokic and a far better shooter with far better range (50/40/90) with equal or greater passing/playmaking ability and nearly equal rebounding skill all wrapped in a cold blooded killer mentality.

And in the current era Larry Bird would absolutely dominate as a point-power-forward in an even more spectacular fashion than Jokic is dominating as a point-center.

And in the current era Larry Bird would shoot 8-10 3-pointers per game torching defenses and extending them which opens up enormous interior passing lanes for his playmaking.

Bird would be even greater in the current era than we was in his 80s back-to-back-to-back mvp era.

Bird is so damn underrated. Carry on.

[Colbinii]

Defense and rim protection isn’t even close, and this is very important when talking about GOAT bigs.

Although I must admit in the GOAT big era Jokic would likely be a power forward paired with another defense only center.

In that era Jokic would play a role somewhat similar to Bird. In fact, to me this proves how great Larry Bird really was—Bird is a much more athletic version of Jokic and a far better shooter with far better range (50/40/90) with equal or greater passing/playmaking ability and nearly equal rebounding skill all wrapped in a cold blooded killer mentality.

And in the current era Larry Bird would absolutely dominate as a point-power-forward in an even more spectacular fashion than Jokic is dominating as a point-center.

And in the current era Larry Bird would shoot 8-10 3-pointers per game torching defenses and extending them which opens up enormous interior passing lanes for his playmaking.

Bird would be even greater in the current era than we was in his 80s back-to-back-to-back mvp era.

Bird is so damn underrated. Carry on.

How is defense important when talking about offense?

Btw I know you are new here but you are a solid poster, keep it up! Always nice to see people use their brain and view things as objectively as possible.

[Logic Baller]

How is defense important when talking about offense?

Btw I know you are new here but you are a solid poster, keep it up! Always nice to see people use their brain and view things as objectively as possible.

Ah, I should have read the poll question more carefully. My mistake.

Thanks for the compliment regarding my other comments (regarding Bird in this thread and I’m assuming content in other threads as well).

Have a great day. These 2-2 series have be pretty excited for tonight, tomorrow, and the next week of games.