Did MJ really go against tougher competition?

[nzahir]

Compared to Bron? MJ competition was much less tough

MJ never beat a team with 3 all stars in same year. OKC and GSW were easily better than any team he beat. And obliviously MJ never faced a team like 2017-2018 GSW. Lebron was also unlucky in 2015 with huge injuries to Kyrie and Love.

91 Lakers were Magic and Worthy (who got hurt), but no more Kareem or Thompson
92 Blazers were Clyde and a bunch of good players, but no other stars. Not even sure if Clyde was better than Scottie. Weak team imo, easier than any finals team Lebron played
93 Suns were good, Charles, Dan, KJ, Chambers. Defense was weak though. Pushed them to 6 and took a Paxon GW to win G6.
96 Sonics were also very good, but bulls still the faves. Scottie was better than Gary or Kemp imo, got more mvp votes than those two as well.
97-98 Jazz were both very good teams as well. Went to 6 both times, and there was a huge reffing error in one of those years with shot clock violations against Jazz and helped Chi. MJ hit a GW in each series. Kerr hit one in G6 of 1997. So its unfair to say this wasn't a challenge

MJ faced some good teams obviously, but never played a team with more talent than him, unlike Lebron. KD joining GSW probably took 1-2 rings away from Lebron. Then the injuries in 2015. Could have 5-6 rings rn if things were more normal.

89 Cavs had 3 All Stars in one year. Also 93 Suns would too, but KJ was hurt for too much of the year to make it.

Quite a few other teams had 2x All Stars as well.

Was just talking about finals

Bron beat 4 all stars technically too with Boston in 2011 playoffs and Hawks in 2015.
Forgot how good that 2011 celtics team was. Best opp ppg, and 2nd in def rating

Also you can tell the difference between a fringe/weaker all star and a top star or even a superstar

2012 OKC had 1 of the top 3 guys in KD, top 10 guy in Russ and Harden, who most people thought was going to be an AS nexts eason anyways even if he stayed

This is all besides that fact that Wade legit broke down after 2012 playoffs, not even sure if he was a #1 superstar then even looking back at numbers. By 2013 he was just an AS and by 2014, he was cooked. Got outplayed by role guys in 2014 finals

[Sark]

Compared to Bron? MJ competition was much less tough

MJ never beat a team with 3 all stars in same year. OKC and GSW were easily better than any team he beat. And obliviously MJ never faced a team like 2017-2018 GSW. Lebron was also unlucky in 2015 with huge injuries to Kyrie and Love.

91 Lakers were Magic and Worthy (who got hurt), but no more Kareem or Thompson
92 Blazers were Clyde and a bunch of good players, but no other stars. Not even sure if Clyde was better than Scottie. Weak team imo, easier than any finals team Lebron played
93 Suns were good, Charles, Dan, KJ, Chambers. Defense was weak though. Pushed them to 6 and took a Paxon GW to win G6.
96 Sonics were also very good, but bulls still the faves. Scottie was better than Gary or Kemp imo, got more mvp votes than those two as well.
97-98 Jazz were both very good teams as well. Went to 6 both times, and there was a huge reffing error in one of those years with shot clock violations against Jazz and helped Chi. MJ hit a GW in each series. Kerr hit one in G6 of 1997. So its unfair to say this wasn't a challenge

MJ faced some good teams obviously, but never played a team with more talent than him, unlike Lebron. KD joining GSW probably took 1-2 rings away from Lebron. Then the injuries in 2015. Could have 5-6 rings rn if things were more normal.

89 Cavs had 3 All Stars in one year. Also 93 Suns would too, but KJ was hurt for too much of the year to make it.

Quite a few other teams had 2x All Stars as well.

Was just talking about finals

Bron beat 4 all stars technically too with Boston in 2011 playoffs and Hawks in 2015.
Forgot how good that 2011 celtics team was. Best opp ppg, and 2nd in def rating

Also you can tell the difference between a fringe/weaker all star and a top star or even a superstar

2012 OKC had 1 of the top 3 guys in KD, top 10 guy in Russ and Harden, who most people thought was going to be an AS nexts eason anyways even if he stayed

This is all besides that fact that Wade legit broke down after 2012 playoffs, not even sure if he was a #1 superstar then even looking back at numbers. By 2013 he was just an AS and by 2014, he was cooked. Got outplayed by role guys in 2014 finals

I mean just using the Finals will obviously point to Lebron facing better competition, since your scope is so narrow. But when you look at the whole picture, and include all playoffs, then Jordan clearly faced better competition. He faced nine 60 win teams, and was 7-2 against them. Lebron faced seven 60 win, and is 3-4 against them. Jordan beat more 60 win teams in 96 and 97 alone, than Lebron beat in his entire career.

Remember, the East was much tougher in the 90s, and to exclude that is disingenuous.

[Johnlac1]

89 Cavs had 3 All Stars in one year. Also 93 Suns would too, but KJ was hurt for too much of the year to make it.

Quite a few other teams had 2x All Stars as well.

Was just talking about finals

Bron beat 4 all stars technically too with Boston in 2011 playoffs and Hawks in 2015.
Forgot how good that 2011 celtics team was. Best opp ppg, and 2nd in def rating

Also you can tell the difference between a fringe/weaker all star and a top star or even a superstar

2012 OKC had 1 of the top 3 guys in KD, top 10 guy in Russ and Harden, who most people thought was going to be an AS nexts eason anyways even if he stayed

This is all besides that fact that Wade legit broke down after 2012 playoffs, not even sure if he was a #1 superstar then even looking back at numbers. By 2013 he was just an AS and by 2014, he was cooked. Got outplayed by role guys in 2014 finals

I mean just using the Finals will obviously point to Lebron facing better competition, since your scope is so narrow. But when you look at the whole picture, and include all playoffs, then Jordan clearly faced better competition. He faced nine 60 win teams, and was 7-2 against them. Lebron faced seven 60 win, and is 3-4 against them. Jordan beat more 60 win teams in 96 and 97 alone, than Lebron beat in his entire career.

Remember, the East was much tougher in the 90s, and to exclude that is disingenuous.

You still have to face the fact that in '94 the Bulls won only two less games during the regular season than the year before and barely lost to the Knicks in the eastern conference semis taking the Knicks to seven games.
Except for the last game the Knicks's wins were all close including the fifth game where Hubert Davis was fouled in the last seconds by Pippen while shooting a three. He made two fts and the Knicks won by one. If he doesn't get fouled, the Bulls win and win the series in six games. They then would play Indiana from whom they won the reg. season series 4-1.
And in '93, Jordan's last year before he quit for baseball, they lost both reg. season games against Houston. In '94 and '95 the Bulls split their series with Houston. So the Bulls would have had an even chance to beat Houston even without Jordan.
No denying the greatness of Jordan. It's just that he wasn't quite the lone superman he's made out to be by his arch boosters.

[LakerLegend]

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[dautjazz]

The Utah Jazz were the best teams MJ faced and they scored 54 in Game 3 of the 98 Finals. 54 freaking points. They never eclipsed 90 that entire Finals. They wouldn't be better than a healthy Clippers team in the league right now. The competition Lebron faced was on another level compared to what MJ had to go through. The league was watered down in the 90s for 3 main reasons:

1) unusually weak late 80s drafts
2) expansion
3) foreign play hadn't taken off

There's not a chance in hell MJ wins 6 rings in today's nba. He might have won 2011 vs the Mavs but he could never provide the 2 way play Lebron played in 2016 to bring the Cavs back from the brink. LeBron produced GOAT wing defensive impact last finals. MJ is not rattling off Games 5 and 6 and leading every player in every counting stat category no matter how much you lionize him.

Well that's just stupid. The Bulls only topped 90 in two games, and never hit the century mark. Outside of game 3 which was a blow out, it was a competitive series. Also this series had a lot of great defenders, including Pippen, Rodman, Jordan, Stockton, and Malone, so it was going to be a grind it out series. The game was a slower pace, but keep in mind there was only 148 3PT attempts between these two teams in 6 games, a combined 39 makes. A team like the Rockets can get to that total in 3-4 games by themselves. I think you had 10 seconds to move the ball past half court, you had 24 seconds back if the ball hit the rim, etc. Players weren't flopping left and right, and refs didn't favor the offensive player as much as they do now. I'm sure the game has evolved in many regards, and teams are better overall offensively, but lets not act like the NBA hasn't been finding ways to drive up the score over the last 20 years.

[OdomFan]

Wrong again. They were about to lose to the Spurs in game 1 until Kawi got hurt yet some how they can run over every team in NBA history. You don't have a clue.

yeah we have a 3/4 sample of them almost losing a game!

They built a 25 point lead with Leonard on the floor, lost said lead after Leonard got hurt. That's all the proof I need.

[OdomFan]

Anywho 2 Years later I stand by yes, yes he did have tougher competition in both the East and West.

This is all just one of many excuses the bron fans have been making to try to justify brushing his losses under the rug and continuously calling him better than everyone in history. Always gives me a good laugh when I think about it but hey, carry on with the comedy.

[Hal14]

LeBron has faced tougher competition no doubt. Spurs in 2007, 2013, and 2014, and Warriors in 2015 and 2016 were probably better than any team Jordan faced in the finals.

Jordan wouldn't have lost to the 2011 Mavericks though!

Credit where it's due... Dirk was unstoppable in the 2011 Finals... a performance for the ages. Can't fault Lebron for loosing to that.

Yes you can

[Hal14]

if he stayed 94, 95 they wouldn't have beaten Houston

Any basis for this?

I can see MAYBE Houston beats Chicago in 95...but in 94 Pippen, Grant and Armstrong were all all-stars. Plus they added Kukoc.

Houston wasn't as good in 94 without Drexler...no way Houston beats Chicago in 94 if Jordan was there for the full season.

[Hal14]

Today's era that LeBron plays in is so soft! No way it's more competitive now than when Jordan played and had to go against Bird, Magic, Dominique Wilkins, Dr J, Worthy, Parish, McHale, Isiah, Laimbeer, Dumars, Drexler, Mourning, Payton, Stockton, Karl Malone, Moses Malone, Bernard King, Alex English, Fat Lever, Kevin Johnson, Tim Hardaway, Mark Price, Danny Ainge, Charles Barkley, Clyde Drexler, Kareem, Shaq, Penny Hardaway, Grant Hill, David Robinson, Patrick Ewing, Larry Johnson, Dennis Johnson, Chris Mullin, Mitch Richmond, Reggie Miller, Reggie Lewis

Jordan played against 12 teams that are all better than any team LeBron has played against (86 Celtics, 87 Lakers, 85 Lakers, 85 Celtics, 89 Pistons, 88 Pistons, 88 Lakers, 90 Pistons, 87 Celtics, 87 Pistons) and you could probably also add a few other teams to this list (86 Rockets, 86 Lakers, 96 Sonics, 91 Pistons, 93 Suns, 97 Jazz, 98 Jazz)..yes I know MJ didn't face all of these teams in the playoffs but he did face all of them in the regular season..and this thread is about who faced tougher competition, not tougher playoff competition

Jordan played against 3 players who are better than any player LeBron ever played against (Bird, Magic, Kareem)

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[Amares]

That's about right, Jordan never played against very tough competition, or at least during champ run and not tougher than players in other decades. 90s are known for lack of all-time teams, late 90s was also known for lack of great players, some new very bad teams, very simple defense even at late 90s, and very bad at 80s. In a big degree Jordan did what he did, because he was the first, but now considering how league and players evolved it's no longer so impressive.

[The_Hater]

MJ went against a different set of defensive rules in a slow paced league, that's very different than saying he faced tougher competition.

MJ, in today's league with the pace and rules would put up better numbers, but that's because it's a bit easier for everyone.

[The4thHorseman]

89 Cavs had 3 All Stars in one year. Also 93 Suns would too, but KJ was hurt for too much of the year to make it.

Quite a few other teams had 2x All Stars as well.

Was just talking about finals

Bron beat 4 all stars technically too with Boston in 2011 playoffs and Hawks in 2015.
Forgot how good that 2011 celtics team was. Best opp ppg, and 2nd in def rating

Also you can tell the difference between a fringe/weaker all star and a top star or even a superstar

2012 OKC had 1 of the top 3 guys in KD, top 10 guy in Russ and Harden, who most people thought was going to be an AS nexts eason anyways even if he stayed

This is all besides that fact that Wade legit broke down after 2012 playoffs, not even sure if he was a #1 superstar then even looking back at numbers. By 2013 he was just an AS and by 2014, he was cooked. Got outplayed by role guys in 2014 finals

I mean just using the Finals will obviously point to Lebron facing better competition, since your scope is so narrow. But when you look at the whole picture, and include all playoffs, then Jordan clearly faced better competition. He faced nine 60 win teams, and was 7-2 against them. Lebron faced seven 60 win, and is 3-4 against them. Jordan beat more 60 win teams in 96 and 97 alone, than Lebron beat in his entire career.

Remember, the East was much tougher in the 90s, and to exclude that is disingenuous.

Win totals were probably inflated a little due to the expansion era / watered down league over that time.

Yes, Jordan did beat the 64 win Sonics but that was clearly MJ's worst Finals statistically. Then in 97 when the Bulls beat the Heat, MJ avg. 30ppg but took 27FGA to do so. Shot 38% from the field.

2011 Heat only won 58gms. Should they still be considered a superteam since they didn't win 60?

[scrabbarista]

No, he definitely did not. Still the best to ever play, though.

[dreadhead_htx]

And without looking specifically at teams in the playoffs/finals, the overall size and athleticism of the wings has drastically gone up over the last 25 years. Of course MJs athleticism was biggest advantage through the first 3 peat.

people act like penny hardaway-pg/sg, grant hil-sf, latrell sprewell-sg, mitch ritchmond-sg, clyde drexer-sg, scottie pippen-sf/sg, eddie jones-sg, jerry stackhouse-sg, micheal finley-sg never existed. They had some pretty athletic wings back then as well infact alot of the current shooting guards are no more athletic than the shooting guards I listed.the top shooting guards outside of victor oladipo and andrew wiggins, are really not all that athletic. james harden, klay thompson, cj mccollum, j.hoilday are not more athletic than any of the sg or wings I listed. I can list role players like vernon maxwell aka mad max whose athletisism and speed was similar to victor oladipo. with his skillset he would be more than a role player in this era. there are even more guys I could list that werent allstars at the time. yes the athleticism has went up but it mostly with the big men but that doesnt really matter because at the end skill usually outweighs athleticism.well in basketball it does. just ask steph or jokic alot of these athletic guys people are drooling over cant even stay on the floor

[DingleJerry]

And without looking specifically at teams in the playoffs/finals, the overall size and athleticism of the wings has drastically gone up over the last 25 years. Of course MJs athleticism was biggest advantage through the first 3 peat.

people act like penny hardaway-pg/sg, grant hil-sf, latrell sprewell-sg, mitch ritchmond-sg, clyde drexer-sg, scottie pippen-sf/sg, never existed. They had some pretty athletic wings back then as well infact alot of the current shooting guards are no more athletic than the shooting guards I listed.the top shooting guards outside of victor oladipo and andrew wiggins, are really not all that athletic. james harden, klay thompson, cj mccollum, j.hoilday are not more athletic than any of the sg or wings I listed. I can list role players like vernon maxwell aka mad max whose athletisism and speed was similar to victor oladipo. with his skillset he would be more than a role player in this era. there are even more guys I could list that werent allstars at the time. yes the athleticism has went up but it mostly with the big men but that doesnt really matter because at the end skill usually outweighs athleticism.well in basketball it does. just ask steph or jokic alot of these athletic guys people are drooling over cant even stay on the floor

IDK why this is getting rehashed but seriously go back and look at the rosters of playoff teams back then. In some other thread I listed out the starting Gs and guys who would've guarded him for teams he played in the finals and this held true. Really Drexler was the only one. And again, those were Finals opponents so imagine how the non playoff teams looked.

For sure you're not wrong that some guys existed in this size/athleticism combo. Each team probably even had one, but not several per team like now. To act like there was as many then as now is just wrong. There's multiple guys on every team now in this size range that play on the wing and have athleticism as opposed to playing as 'bigs'.

[Pg81]

No, he didn't.

[Jcool0]

Watch on YouTube

[dreadhead_htx]

And without looking specifically at teams in the playoffs/finals, the overall size and athleticism of the wings has drastically gone up over the last 25 years. Of course MJs athleticism was biggest advantage through the first 3 peat.

people act like penny hardaway-pg/sg, grant hil-sf, latrell sprewell-sg, mitch ritchmond-sg, clyde drexer-sg, scottie pippen-sf/sg, never existed. They had some pretty athletic wings back then as well infact alot of the current shooting guards are no more athletic than the shooting guards I listed.the top shooting guards outside of victor oladipo and andrew wiggins, are really not all that athletic. james harden, klay thompson, cj mccollum, j.hoilday are not more athletic than any of the sg or wings I listed. I can list role players like vernon maxwell aka mad max whose athletisism and speed was similar to victor oladipo. with his skillset he would be more than a role player in this era. there are even more guys I could list that werent allstars at the time. yes the athleticism has went up but it mostly with the big men but that doesnt really matter because at the end skill usually outweighs athleticism.well in basketball it does. just ask steph or jokic alot of these athletic guys people are drooling over cant even stay on the floor

IDK why this is getting rehashed but seriously go back and look at the rosters of playoff teams back then. In some other thread I listed out the starting Gs and guys who would've guarded him for teams he played in the finals and this held true. Really Drexler was the only one. And again, those were Finals opponents so imagine how the non playoff teams looked.

For sure you're not wrong that some guys existed in this size/athleticism combo. Each team probably even had one, but not several per team like now. To act like there was as many then as now is just wrong. There's multiple guys on every team now in this size range that play on the wing and have athleticism as opposed to playing as 'bigs'.

I agree its more athletism now but its over exaggerated to the point of being laughable because alot of guys dont even get playing time because of the short rotations teams run. and you said that he didnt face any athletic guards in the finals but I can name a few that he faced during the regular season and torched them pretty easily and back then defense was tougher.

[LKN]

Who cares... MJ has the most impressive resume in the modern NBA (other than maybe KAJ) and dominated his peers more than any other player. It's not like there's any sort of MJ "GOAT Argument" depending on the premise that he played against better competition.