Did MJ really go against tougher competition?

[LKN]

And yet championships added, playoff winshares and CORP all put lebron over jordan...

Almost like you're cherrypicking...

As I said - this is mostly a dumb troll thread.

Is everything that disagrees with you a "dumb troll thread"?
http://www.backpicks.com/2017/12/11/the-backpicks-goat-the-40-best-careers-in-nba-history/
^^^ A calculation for championships added that uses extensive tape and metric analysis. As of now it ranks kareem 1 and Lebron 2. 3. Jordan.

Lebron is also ranked ahead by progressive goat which uses bpm and gauges era competition by checking the standard deviation between different player's bpm's.

ESPN's championships added has Lebron ahead of mj

Winshares puts oberon ahead of MJ.

Finding 538 analysis of "expectation" as some sort of definite refutation that refutes the various arguments you've failed to contest is hilarious.

You seem to have mistaken me for someone who considers this a serious thread.

If you think Lebron is better than MJ then good for you! Not sure why you feel the need to have your view validated.. but whatever floats your boat

[freethedevil]

As I said - this is mostly a dumb troll thread.

Is everything that disagrees with you a "dumb troll thread"?
http://www.backpicks.com/2017/12/11/the-backpicks-goat-the-40-best-careers-in-nba-history/
^^^ A calculation for championships added that uses extensive tape and metric analysis. As of now it ranks kareem 1 and Lebron 2. 3. Jordan.

Lebron is also ranked ahead by progressive goat which uses bpm and gauges era competition by checking the standard deviation between different player's bpm's.

ESPN's championships added has Lebron ahead of mj

Winshares puts oberon ahead of MJ.

Finding 538 analysis of "expectation" as some sort of definite refutation that refutes the various arguments you've failed to contest is hilarious.

You seem to have mistaken me for someone who considers this a serious thread.

If you think Lebron is better than MJ then good for you! Not sure why you feel the need to have your view validated.. but whatever floats your boat

-> troll
-> seeking validation

pick one, because those are mutually exclusive

[so_bored]

That's actually some semi-clever trolling

+1 to you

He isn't trolling. He is known for coming up with the dumbest logic to prop up Lebron.

[LKN]

Is everything that disagrees with you a "dumb troll thread"?
http://www.backpicks.com/2017/12/11/the-backpicks-goat-the-40-best-careers-in-nba-history/
^^^ A calculation for championships added that uses extensive tape and metric analysis. As of now it ranks kareem 1 and Lebron 2. 3. Jordan.

Lebron is also ranked ahead by progressive goat which uses bpm and gauges era competition by checking the standard deviation between different player's bpm's.

ESPN's championships added has Lebron ahead of mj

Winshares puts oberon ahead of MJ.

Finding 538 analysis of "expectation" as some sort of definite refutation that refutes the various arguments you've failed to contest is hilarious.

You seem to have mistaken me for someone who considers this a serious thread.

If you think Lebron is better than MJ then good for you! Not sure why you feel the need to have your view validated.. but whatever floats your boat

-> troll
-> seeking validation

pick one, because those are mutually exclusive

Oh wait - was I not clear?

[ATRAIN53]

nope, everyone knows those Pistons were really CREAMPUFFS....

[HEAT33]

These youngsters.....
Stop trying to make a case about lebron being the GOAT, the debate is over.
Numbers don’t tell the whole story
He is a great player, top 3
1. MJ
2. Kareem
3. Lebron

[freethedevil]

These youngsters.....
Stop trying to make a case about lebron being the GOAT, the debate is over.

Since when did you decide when debates ended?

[spikeslovechild]

Lebron is 34 and stuck going nowhere with the Lakers. The goat debate is over. As far as whether the competition was tougher are you kidding me? He literally created his own superteam the heat were far and away the best team in the league when he was on the roster and he still managed to somehow lose Mavericks and Spurs who were vastly inferior. He then goes back to Cleveland with Kyrie and Love then wins one championship in three years.

He is a great player but Jordan would have taken that Heat team and won four championships. Why? Because that is what GOATS do

[Jazztop]

It’s easy in hindsight to say MJ’s competition wasn’t that great. But he went against the 2 time defending champion Pistons with an all time great player and 2 others that are close enough in their position. The next season they overcame a Knicks team that won 58 and had home court and was undefeated at home for 26 games in a row. Ewing was a monster during the early 90’s. No centre compares today except for Embiid. I think Starks was an all star as well. Out west it was the Lakers who were past their best but still had a very good Magic and the rest. A Blazers team considered a juggernaut with 4 all star caliber players outside of Drexler - Porter, Kersey, Williams and sixth man Robinson. But Jordan was too much for them as well. Then again a 60 win team Suns with the MVP Barkley and absolute beast of a PG (when healthy) in KJ and some fine other pieces. Then you go to the 60 win Sonics with 3 all stars who they were on their way to sweeping (3-0) before taking their foot right off the gas and finishing in 6. And my 60 win Jazz team with 2 HoFers who you needed to watch just to witness the execution of brilliance in the half court when MJ and the Bulls were starting to age.

As for the 93-94 team of 55 wins....the Bulls were damn good without MJ (Pippen is an all time great and arguably the best ‘Robin’ ever), just like the Warriors are damn good without KD. Really doesn’t mean much.

I’d agree that the 07 and 13 Spurs as well as the 17-19 Warriors are better than any team the Bulls beat. Perhaps an early 00 Lakers team as well. But there’s not that much in it and the consistency of 2 threepeats against great competition is what sets both MJ and his team apart.

If he has any individual competition today, it’s not LeBron, it’s KD - depending on where he goes and what he wins over the next 4-6 years.

[HEAT33]

These youngsters.....
Stop trying to make a case about lebron being the GOAT, the debate is over.

Since when did you decide when debates ended?

The debate has been over awhile now.

The real debate is if Lebron is better than Kareem now
Tier 1 MJ
Tier 2 Lebron and Kareem

[freethedevil]

It’s easy in hindsight to say MJ’s competition wasn’t that great. But he went against the 2 time defending champion Pistons with an all time great player and 2 others that are close enough in their position. The next season they overcame a Knicks team that won 58 and had home court and was undefeated at home for 26 games in a row. Ewing was a monster during the early 90’s. No centre compares today except for Embiid. I think Starks was an all star as well. Out west it was the Lakers who were past their best but still had a very good Magic and the rest. A Blazers team considered a juggernaut with 4 all star caliber players outside of Drexler - Porter, Kersey, Williams and sixth man Robinson. But Jordan was too much for them as well. Then again a 60 win team Suns with the MVP Barkley and absolute beast of a PG (when healthy) in KJ and some fine other pieces. Then you go to the 60 win Sonics with 3 all stars who they were on their way to sweeping (3-0) before taking their foot right off the gas and finishing in 6. And my 60 win Jazz team with 2 HoFers who you needed to watch just to witness the execution of brilliance in the half court when MJ and the Bulls were starting to age.

As for the 93-94 team of 55 wins....the Bulls were damn good without MJ (Pippen is an all time great and arguably the best ‘Robin’ ever), just like the Warriors are damn good without KD. Really doesn’t mean much.

I’d agree that the 07 and 13 Spurs as well as the 17-19 Warriors are better than any team the Bulls beat. Perhaps an early 00 Lakers team as well. But there’s not that much in it and the consistency of 2 threepeats against great competition is what sets both MJ and his team apart.

If he has any individual competition today, it’s not LeBron, it’s KD - depending on where he goes and what he wins over the next 4-6 years.

How does any of this have anything to do with the league being more talented now? You do realize that hofers and team record are a result of how well a player does vs their own era...

[VanWest82]

It’s easy in hindsight to say MJ’s competition wasn’t that great. But he went against the 2 time defending champion Pistons with an all time great player and 2 others that are close enough in their position. The next season they overcame a Knicks team that won 58 and had home court and was undefeated at home for 26 games in a row. Ewing was a monster during the early 90’s. No centre compares today except for Embiid. I think Starks was an all star as well. Out west it was the Lakers who were past their best but still had a very good Magic and the rest. A Blazers team considered a juggernaut with 4 all star caliber players outside of Drexler - Porter, Kersey, Williams and sixth man Robinson. But Jordan was too much for them as well. Then again a 60 win team Suns with the MVP Barkley and absolute beast of a PG (when healthy) in KJ and some fine other pieces. Then you go to the 60 win Sonics with 3 all stars who they were on their way to sweeping (3-0) before taking their foot right off the gas and finishing in 6. And my 60 win Jazz team with 2 HoFers who you needed to watch just to witness the execution of brilliance in the half court when MJ and the Bulls were starting to age.

As for the 93-94 team of 55 wins....the Bulls were damn good without MJ (Pippen is an all time great and arguably the best ‘Robin’ ever), just like the Warriors are damn good without KD. Really doesn’t mean much.

I’d agree that the 07 and 13 Spurs as well as the 17-19 Warriors are better than any team the Bulls beat. Perhaps an early 00 Lakers team as well. But there’s not that much in it and the consistency of 2 threepeats against great competition is what sets both MJ and his team apart.

If he has any individual competition today, it’s not LeBron, it’s KD - depending on where he goes and what he wins over the next 4-6 years.

I thought this was a great post until you put KD at or above Lebron. That's a little disrepectful. Lebron is a full tier ahead of KD on whatever list you're making. Lebron's run from '11-'18 is at least similar to what MJ did though he got a little unlucky in his competition as you pointed out. MJ is the GOAT. Lebron is as good as you can get without being the GOAT.

[dakomish23]

MJ always rose to the occasion from 91 on.

I’d love for him to have gone against any of these teams everyone is so sure he would have lost to.

[OdomFan]

These youngsters.....
Stop trying to make a case about lebron being the GOAT, the debate is over.

Since when did you decide when debates ended?

The debate has been over awhile now.

The real debate is if Lebron is better than Kareem now
Tier 1 MJ
Tier 2 Lebron and Kareem

I've got Duncan ahead of him too. He was the better overall leader and team player. Lebrons all about the stats.

[TheGOATRises007]

OP is a Knicks fan still suffering from what MJ did to them in the 90s.

Don't worry. You guys weren't the only ones.

[Jazztop]

It’s easy in hindsight to say MJ’s competition wasn’t that great. But he went against the 2 time defending champion Pistons with an all time great player and 2 others that are close enough in their position. The next season they overcame a Knicks team that won 58 and had home court and was undefeated at home for 26 games in a row. Ewing was a monster during the early 90’s. No centre compares today except for Embiid. I think Starks was an all star as well. Out west it was the Lakers who were past their best but still had a very good Magic and the rest. A Blazers team considered a juggernaut with 4 all star caliber players outside of Drexler - Porter, Kersey, Williams and sixth man Robinson. But Jordan was too much for them as well. Then again a 60 win team Suns with the MVP Barkley and absolute beast of a PG (when healthy) in KJ and some fine other pieces. Then you go to the 60 win Sonics with 3 all stars who they were on their way to sweeping (3-0) before taking their foot right off the gas and finishing in 6. And my 60 win Jazz team with 2 HoFers who you needed to watch just to witness the execution of brilliance in the half court when MJ and the Bulls were starting to age.

As for the 93-94 team of 55 wins....the Bulls were damn good without MJ (Pippen is an all time great and arguably the best ‘Robin’ ever), just like the Warriors are damn good without KD. Really doesn’t mean much.

I’d agree that the 07 and 13 Spurs as well as the 17-19 Warriors are better than any team the Bulls beat. Perhaps an early 00 Lakers team as well. But there’s not that much in it and the consistency of 2 threepeats against great competition is what sets both MJ and his team apart.

If he has any individual competition today, it’s not LeBron, it’s KD - depending on where he goes and what he wins over the next 4-6 years.

How does any of this have anything to do with the league being more talented now? You do realize that hofers and team record are a result of how well a player does vs their own era...

I think I explained it pretty well. Nobody has a time machine but the teams MJ best in playoffs and Finals compare well to the best today. Team size like the 92 Blazers, 93 Suns, 93 Knicks, 96 Sonics, 97 Jazz compare well with any great team of the modern day. In fact the Jazz were wiping the Lakers off the court before the Lakers got a bit older and went on their own run. Those Lakers are considered a standard bearer of greatness in terms of the 21st century along with the Spurs, LeBron’s Heat and especially the Warriors. So you figure it out.

[Jazztop]

It’s easy in hindsight to say MJ’s competition wasn’t that great. But he went against the 2 time defending champion Pistons with an all time great player and 2 others that are close enough in their position. The next season they overcame a Knicks team that won 58 and had home court and was undefeated at home for 26 games in a row. Ewing was a monster during the early 90’s. No centre compares today except for Embiid. I think Starks was an all star as well. Out west it was the Lakers who were past their best but still had a very good Magic and the rest. A Blazers team considered a juggernaut with 4 all star caliber players outside of Drexler - Porter, Kersey, Williams and sixth man Robinson. But Jordan was too much for them as well. Then again a 60 win team Suns with the MVP Barkley and absolute beast of a PG (when healthy) in KJ and some fine other pieces. Then you go to the 60 win Sonics with 3 all stars who they were on their way to sweeping (3-0) before taking their foot right off the gas and finishing in 6. And my 60 win Jazz team with 2 HoFers who you needed to watch just to witness the execution of brilliance in the half court when MJ and the Bulls were starting to age.

As for the 93-94 team of 55 wins....the Bulls were damn good without MJ (Pippen is an all time great and arguably the best ‘Robin’ ever), just like the Warriors are damn good without KD. Really doesn’t mean much.

I’d agree that the 07 and 13 Spurs as well as the 17-19 Warriors are better than any team the Bulls beat. Perhaps an early 00 Lakers team as well. But there’s not that much in it and the consistency of 2 threepeats against great competition is what sets both MJ and his team apart.

If he has any individual competition today, it’s not LeBron, it’s KD - depending on where he goes and what he wins over the next 4-6 years.

I thought this was a great post until you put KD at or above Lebron. That's a little disrepectful. Lebron is a full tier ahead of KD on whatever list you're making. Lebron's run from '11-'18 is at least similar to what MJ did though he got a little unlucky in his competition as you pointed out. MJ is the GOAT. Lebron is as good as you can get without being the GOAT.

im not saying he’s above LeBron, I’m saying he’s potentially above LeBron if he collects 2 or more rings before he’s done. And if he’s above LeBron (potentially) then it means he’s closer to MJ than LeBron when it’s all said and done.

[GYK]

You realize how many wins a team manages in their era doesn't say anything about how they'd compare to a future or prior team?

yes we can go into SRS. i'm sure you'll realize the SRS for his comp is mostly top 30-50 all time. strength of schedule is problematic. Ortg and Drtg is helpful too. yet simplistically winning is what matters.

Again, all of that is relative to era. Managing a higher point differential can mean two things... your opponent was weaker than the corresponding teams of other eras OOOOR your team was better.

A 60 win team with an all time high srs isn't necessarily better than a 55 win team with a considerably worse srs in 2015. Citing how well a team was relative to their era as proof that a player faced tougher competition is stupid. The post you quoted was talking about competition across eras, not whether a team was better relative to their era than another team.

how would you determine better if relative to era info like SRS and Dtrg/Ortg isn't your basis?

[VanWest82]

It’s easy in hindsight to say MJ’s competition wasn’t that great. But he went against the 2 time defending champion Pistons with an all time great player and 2 others that are close enough in their position. The next season they overcame a Knicks team that won 58 and had home court and was undefeated at home for 26 games in a row. Ewing was a monster during the early 90’s. No centre compares today except for Embiid. I think Starks was an all star as well. Out west it was the Lakers who were past their best but still had a very good Magic and the rest. A Blazers team considered a juggernaut with 4 all star caliber players outside of Drexler - Porter, Kersey, Williams and sixth man Robinson. But Jordan was too much for them as well. Then again a 60 win team Suns with the MVP Barkley and absolute beast of a PG (when healthy) in KJ and some fine other pieces. Then you go to the 60 win Sonics with 3 all stars who they were on their way to sweeping (3-0) before taking their foot right off the gas and finishing in 6. And my 60 win Jazz team with 2 HoFers who you needed to watch just to witness the execution of brilliance in the half court when MJ and the Bulls were starting to age.

As for the 93-94 team of 55 wins....the Bulls were damn good without MJ (Pippen is an all time great and arguably the best ‘Robin’ ever), just like the Warriors are damn good without KD. Really doesn’t mean much.

I’d agree that the 07 and 13 Spurs as well as the 17-19 Warriors are better than any team the Bulls beat. Perhaps an early 00 Lakers team as well. But there’s not that much in it and the consistency of 2 threepeats against great competition is what sets both MJ and his team apart.

If he has any individual competition today, it’s not LeBron, it’s KD - depending on where he goes and what he wins over the next 4-6 years.

I thought this was a great post until you put KD at or above Lebron. That's a little disrepectful. Lebron is a full tier ahead of KD on whatever list you're making. Lebron's run from '11-'18 is at least similar to what MJ did though he got a little unlucky in his competition as you pointed out. MJ is the GOAT. Lebron is as good as you can get without being the GOAT.

im not saying he’s above LeBron, I’m saying he’s potentially above LeBron if he collects 2 or more rings before he’s done. And if he’s above LeBron (potentially) then it means he’s closer to MJ than LeBron when it’s all said and done.

If Durant wins five rings and Lebron finishes with three, Lebron will still be considered the better player unless KD unlocks some much higher level of play that he hasn't shown to date. Given he's already 30 with a tonne of miles in his rear view, I doubt that happens. Lebron was just MUCH better for a lot longer. Even last year in the Finals he was still better than Durant. It isn't just about rings.

[Nazrmohamed]

Here are the most lauded players from the 80's onward:
-Magic
-Bird
-Jordan
-Hakeem
-Shaq
-Kobe
-Duncan
-Lebron

The Bulls were too late for the Celtics-Laker era, and ended their reign before the Duncan-Shaq-Kobe era. Hakeem and the Rockets would've been Jordan's scariest opponent, but it never happened. If the Bulls had played the Rockets in the mid-90's or Spurs in the late 90's, that would've been interesting, because the Bulls never got an opponent of that caliber.

The Jazz and Sonics were darn good teams. Idk what yall talking about. SSI were the Suns who had to get past the Rockets and Spurs of that era.