2018-19 Player of the Year Discussion Thread

[Peregrine01]

Agreed with everybody saying Draymond has been the anchor of the Warriors so far.

I've literally been saying for years that we've never had a player like Draymond Green. Handles like a PG, defends on a DPOY level, gets 7-8 assists every night, and can shoot 3's. When you talk about players who galvanize the multiple-man unit on the court...I don't just mean in terms of attitude/spirit, I mean a guy who play after play commits actions that connect plays made by his teammates to other teammates. Like, this guy maximizes the positive effect teammates have on other teammates. Think about that.

Horace Grant is one of my favorite players ever, and I used to call him a "connector" because he's the guy who would play screen-n-roll with Penny, catch the ball on the pop and either shoot his shot at an elite level or recognize that Shaq's man stepped out to guard his jumper so he could adeptly dump it to Shaq for a dunk. Or he could skip it to D-Scott in the corner for a 3, and if it misses, Horace grabs the offensive rebound. Then go back on the other end and him and Scottie and Mike could completely shut down passing lanes, or maybe Horace locks down the paint allowing MJ/Scottie to take chances. Draymond is that "connector" type on steroids. Basically KG with less scoring, more range, different style defense.

The symbiotic relationship with Curry, and even Klay, but especially Curry, is like...perfect. I said a few years ago that Curry/Draymond is the best 2-man combination in NBA history, and I believe a mod who I think is an excellent mod, I think it was Trex, verbally warned me for trolling. Now granted, I do say incredibly dumb things from time to time, but I was 100% serious when I said Dray/Steph is the best 2-person unit in basketball history, and I'm pretty sure there is on-off data, shared-court RAPM, 73 wins, AND the eye test that back that claim up. These guys boost each other and more importantly, boost those around them. Credit to those who take advantage such as Klay, who gets crapped on, yet once again showed his true colors when GSW needed him the most by leading the offense and dropping bombs in the first half last night.

How many times has Klay done this? Remember when he hit an NBA record 11 3-pointers in 2016 on the road down 3-2 against a really, really good team. Curry might go off when the team is ahead by 5 and because he goes supernova and GSW blow it open he gets A LOT of glory, and much of it is deserved, but I swear it seems like when the going gets tough and they are down, Klay is the guy who wakes up and keeps them afloat. Yet Klay gets called overrated, needs the others, is one-dimensional, etc. So wild.

There is a synergy between Curry and Dray that really I haven’t seen in any other duo ever. When they run the pick and roll it seems almost like they’re telepathic. It’s really unfair when they run it so I guess Kerr has to make it interesting by not running it as often as he should.

[GSP]

Agreed with everybody saying Draymond has been the anchor of the Warriors so far.

I've literally been saying for years that we've never had a player like Draymond Green. Handles like a PG, defends on a DPOY level, gets 7-8 assists every night, and can shoot 3's. When you talk about players who galvanize the multiple-man unit on the court...I don't just mean in terms of attitude/spirit, I mean a guy who play after play commits actions that connect plays made by his teammates to other teammates. Like, this guy maximizes the positive effect teammates have on other teammates. Think about that.

Horace Grant is one of my favorite players ever, and I used to call him a "connector" because he's the guy who would play screen-n-roll with Penny, catch the ball on the pop and either shoot his shot at an elite level or recognize that Shaq's man stepped out to guard his jumper so he could adeptly dump it to Shaq for a dunk. Or he could skip it to D-Scott in the corner for a 3, and if it misses, Horace grabs the offensive rebound. Then go back on the other end and him and Scottie and Mike could completely shut down passing lanes, or maybe Horace locks down the paint allowing MJ/Scottie to take chances. Draymond is that "connector" type on steroids. Basically KG with less scoring, more range, different style defense.

The symbiotic relationship with Curry, and even Klay, but especially Curry, is like...perfect. I said a few years ago that Curry/Draymond is the best 2-man combination in NBA history, and I believe a mod who I think is an excellent mod, I think it was Trex, verbally warned me for trolling. Now granted, I do say incredibly dumb things from time to time, but I was 100% serious when I said Dray/Steph is the best 2-person unit in basketball history, and I'm pretty sure there is on-off data, shared-court RAPM, 73 wins, AND the eye test that back that claim up. These guys boost each other and more importantly, boost those around them. Credit to those who take advantage such as Klay, who gets crapped on, yet once again showed his true colors when GSW needed him the most by leading the offense and dropping bombs in the first half last night.

How many times has Klay done this? Remember when he hit an NBA record 11 3-pointers in 2016 on the road down 3-2 against a really, really good team. Curry might go off when the team is ahead by 5 and because he goes supernova and GSW blow it open he gets A LOT of glory, and much of it is deserved, but I swear it seems like when the going gets tough and they are down, Klay is the guy who wakes up and keeps them afloat. Yet Klay gets called overrated, needs the others, is one-dimensional, etc. So wild.

Hes nowhere near the athlete or rebounder Kg was but yeah overall the comparison isnt bad. I think the more range thing is a reach/stretch. I mean yeah technically he does take more 3s but outside of one outlier year hes been a putrid shooter. It was a fluke shooting season in retrospect considering his shooting numbers every year minus that. Teams literally ignore him and leave him with 15ft of space offball too so its not like he has much of any gravity offball or with his "spacing" which isnt even really that. Kg was one of the best midrange shooting bigs in the league and was money from 16-<3pt range too

[Senior]

Agreed with everybody saying Draymond has been the anchor of the Warriors so far.

I've literally been saying for years that we've never had a player like Draymond Green. Handles like a PG, defends on a DPOY level, gets 7-8 assists every night, and can shoot 3's. When you talk about players who galvanize the multiple-man unit on the court...I don't just mean in terms of attitude/spirit, I mean a guy who play after play commits actions that connect plays made by his teammates to other teammates. Like, this guy maximizes the positive effect teammates have on other teammates. Think about that.

Horace Grant is one of my favorite players ever, and I used to call him a "connector" because he's the guy who would play screen-n-roll with Penny, catch the ball on the pop and either shoot his shot at an elite level or recognize that Shaq's man stepped out to guard his jumper so he could adeptly dump it to Shaq for a dunk. Or he could skip it to D-Scott in the corner for a 3, and if it misses, Horace grabs the offensive rebound. Then go back on the other end and him and Scottie and Mike could completely shut down passing lanes, or maybe Horace locks down the paint allowing MJ/Scottie to take chances. Draymond is that "connector" type on steroids. Basically KG with less scoring, more range, different style defense.

The symbiotic relationship with Curry, and even Klay, but especially Curry, is like...perfect. I said a few years ago that Curry/Draymond is the best 2-man combination in NBA history, and I believe a mod who I think is an excellent mod, I think it was Trex, verbally warned me for trolling. Now granted, I do say incredibly dumb things from time to time, but I was 100% serious when I said Dray/Steph is the best 2-person unit in basketball history, and I'm pretty sure there is on-off data, shared-court RAPM, 73 wins, AND the eye test that back that claim up. These guys boost each other and more importantly, boost those around them. Credit to those who take advantage such as Klay, who gets crapped on, yet once again showed his true colors when GSW needed him the most by leading the offense and dropping bombs in the first half last night.

How many times has Klay done this? Remember when he hit an NBA record 11 3-pointers in 2016 on the road down 3-2 against a really, really good team. Curry might go off when the team is ahead by 5 and because he goes supernova and GSW blow it open he gets A LOT of glory, and much of it is deserved, but I swear it seems like when the going gets tough and they are down, Klay is the guy who wakes up and keeps them afloat. Yet Klay gets called overrated, needs the others, is one-dimensional, etc. So wild.

in all seriousness i kinda feel like draymond is KG if he was half as good a scorer but played for the shaq-kobe lakers. guy is just unreal. there's a reason why teams having been looking for another draymond green for like 5 years

[ronnymac2]

Respect to Houston, particularly James Harden. The guy's workload is basically an an all-time level, yet he delivers night in and night out, and he played well against the team best suited to guard perimeter players in this era. What LeBron James has done the past four Finals to GSW is perhaps the most impressive feat in NBA history, and so by extension, what Harden did was pretty dang impressive, too. Hopefully we get a situation where he can lighten the offensive load and maybe diversify his game a bit more. He's such a strong dude and a slick passer...would love to see him post up more.

Austin Rivers had a heck of a series. Eric Gordon and PJ Tucker are absolute gamers and belong on championship-level squads in their respective roles. My boy Shump...when his shot is on, he's def a positive. Love Nene's heart as well given all he's been through.

Capela continues to prove himself to be solid but overrated. He's the model center in today's game if the model center is essentially a muppet who can catch and dunk and becomes a liability on both ends in certain matchups. I think Capela is better than that though. He came out of nowhere to be a really good player on a legit title contender, so he clearly has the work ethic. I think his game is held down by this garbage Moreyball and Pringle Boy's obsession with 3's and guard play. D'Antoni is great when he has genius-level guards like Nash and Harden.

Then we get to the worst contract in NBA history. Chris Paul. He was great in his prime (but of course overrated if posters actually think he's on a tier with LBJ, KG, etc.). But man, when you're the number 2 on a title contender and you have that contract...I would have liked a little more than what he gave to HOU this year. This was probably the only year where it was reasonable to get a legit PRIME CP3 season. It goes downhill from here.

[GSP]

Then we get to the worst contract in NBA history. Chris Paul.

Gordon Hayward has entered the chat

[Doctor MJ]

Harden was great versus Golden State. He didn't have the luxury of easy competition in the first couple of rounds. I don't think that should be held against him.

Houston had the opportunity for a higher seed. They blew it.

Not looking to trash Harden here, and you can talk about his teammates in the regular season, but yeah, when you earn a 4 seed, you tend to have a tougher time getting to the CF.

[Krodis]

Harden was great versus Golden State. He didn't have the luxury of easy competition in the first couple of rounds. I don't think that should be held against him.

Houston had the opportunity for a higher seed. They blew it.

Not looking to trash Harden here, and you can talk about his teammates in the regular season, but yeah, when you earn a 4 seed, you tend to have a tougher time getting to the CF.

They were an outrageously unlucky string of events from the two seed despite injuries to Paul and Capela and the baffling Melo-infused start. Are you really going to act like that's on Harden?

EDIT: Plus the whole conference imbalance thing.

[Doctor MJ]

I think Harden performed well enough this postseason for him to largely stand pat with where I had him when it began. But that's well behind Giannis.

Harden's not dropping in my assessment, but those who keep playing may still rise.

What I will say though is that Durant was perhaps the most likely to pass Harden on my list (Giannis is already ahead of him), and the last game plus has made that a lot more iffy.

[Outside]

Harden was great versus Golden State. He didn't have the luxury of easy competition in the first couple of rounds. I don't think that should be held against him.

Houston had the opportunity for a higher seed. They blew it.

Not looking to trash Harden here, and you can talk about his teammates in the regular season, but yeah, when you earn a 4 seed, you tend to have a tougher time getting to the CF.

They were an outrageously unlucky string of events from the two seed despite injuries to Paul and Capela and the baffling Melo-infused start. Are you really going to act like that's on Harden?

Denver arguably had more injury issues yet was still able to get the 2 seed.

It's the season in its entirety, not just "best team after the all-star break" or whatever arbitrary point gets picked. Houston gets credit for their great second half, but they own their record for the first 25 games, too.

[Krodis]

Houston had the opportunity for a higher seed. They blew it.

Not looking to trash Harden here, and you can talk about his teammates in the regular season, but yeah, when you earn a 4 seed, you tend to have a tougher time getting to the CF.

They were an outrageously unlucky string of events from the two seed despite injuries to Paul and Capela and the baffling Melo-infused start. Are you really going to act like that's on Harden?

Denver arguably had more injury issues yet was still able to get the 2 seed.

It's the season in its entirety, not just "best team after the all-star break" or whatever arbitrary point gets picked. Houston gets credit for their great second half, but they own their record for the first 25 games, too.

I'm not trying to say that Houston's first 25 games shouldn't count. Just that it seems petty to hold Harden responsible because his team finished one game back while playing a roster from the scrap heap for much of the year.

[Doctor MJ]

I'm really excited to see how Draymond is evaluated when he retires. Collinearity of the Warriors plus their overall dominance makes assessing their individual components really tough but Draymond's unique skillset is probably only borne out even remotely well through impact numbers. I bet he looks like KG in those metrics. He's so insanely good at everything but scoring.

It's going to be interesting to see what the Back 9 of Dray's career looks like. I think it's telling that Klay has basically always been considered the bigger free agency prospect. Team's are confident that they could make great use of Klay. Dray is a much bigger wild card.

So long as Dray stays on the Warriors, and stays agile enough enough as he ages to have a normal career arc, his career impact is going to be astonishing. The closest figure that comes to mind is Havlicek, but Green I'd expect to be a tier above that where a spot in the Top 25 is seen as warranted, and perhaps even higher.

But he blows up though and goes to another team, I could see him falling into obscurity quickly.

What it says about how we should rate Dray that his ability to impact like this is likely, in practice, tied to his value in one specific place, is fascinating.

[NinjaSheppard]

Denver definitely didn't have more issues than the Rockets that is absolutely laughable.

At one point during the season one of the Rockets best 4 guys was a G Leaguer who they then had to send back down because he was on a 2 way contract and reached his 45 day limit. Denver was missing guys but they had great depth the whole year.

[Krodis]

Denver definitely didn't have more issues than the Rockets that is absolutely laughable.

At one point during the season one of the Rockets best 4 guys was a G Leaguer who they then had to send back down because he was on a 2 way contract and reached his 45 day limit. Denver was missing guys but they had great depth the whole year.

That was when the roster issues hit high comedy. Having a team lose a starter because he ran out of games and had to be sent back to the G-League is something else.

[Doctor MJ]

Harden was great versus Golden State. He didn't have the luxury of easy competition in the first couple of rounds. I don't think that should be held against him.

Houston had the opportunity for a higher seed. They blew it.

Not looking to trash Harden here, and you can talk about his teammates in the regular season, but yeah, when you earn a 4 seed, you tend to have a tougher time getting to the CF.

They were an outrageously unlucky string of events from the two seed despite injuries to Paul and Capela and the baffling Melo-infused start. Are you really going to act like that's on Harden?

EDIT: Plus the whole conference imbalance thing.

Just saying, this is part of the life of a 4th seed.

[Krodis]

Houston had the opportunity for a higher seed. They blew it.

Not looking to trash Harden here, and you can talk about his teammates in the regular season, but yeah, when you earn a 4 seed, you tend to have a tougher time getting to the CF.

They were an outrageously unlucky string of events from the two seed despite injuries to Paul and Capela and the baffling Melo-infused start. Are you really going to act like that's on Harden?

EDIT: Plus the whole conference imbalance thing.

Just saying, this is part of the life of a 4th seed.

Yeah, it's true. But it seemed to me your implication was that was in some way Harden's fault.

[Doctor MJ]

They were an outrageously unlucky string of events from the two seed despite injuries to Paul and Capela and the baffling Melo-infused start. Are you really going to act like that's on Harden?

EDIT: Plus the whole conference imbalance thing.

Just saying, this is part of the life of a 4th seed.

Yeah, it's true. But it seemed to me your implication was that was in some way Harden's fault.

Well I tried to actually say I wasn't knocking Harden.

What I am saying though is that it's weird to me to start calling guys on 1st and 2nd seeds lucky for who their opponent is.

[Senior]

I'm really excited to see how Draymond is evaluated when he retires. Collinearity of the Warriors plus their overall dominance makes assessing their individual components really tough but Draymond's unique skillset is probably only borne out even remotely well through impact numbers. I bet he looks like KG in those metrics. He's so insanely good at everything but scoring.

It's going to be interesting to see what the Back 9 of Dray's career looks like. I think it's telling that Klay has basically always been considered the bigger free agency prospect. Team's are confident that they could make great use of Klay. Dray is a much bigger wild card.

So long as Dray stays on the Warriors, and stays agile enough enough as he ages to have a normal career arc, his career impact is going to be astonishing. The closest figure that comes to mind is Havlicek, but Green I'd expect to be a tier above that where a spot in the Top 25 is seen as warranted, and perhaps even higher.

But he blows up though and goes to another team, I could see him falling into obscurity quickly.

What it says about how we should rate Dray that his ability to impact like this is likely, in practice, tied to his value in one specific place, is fascinating.

Klay is a plug and play guy. Stick him on any team in the league, they get better. Simple as that. Very safe player in a process dominated by risk.

If Draymond were to leave the Warriors and subsequently see his allure drop, I think people would have to distinguish between "impact" and "goodness". It is true that Draymond is in the perfect team and possibly the best fit throughout history on GS. That's borne out by his presumably insane impact numbers (don't know the best up to date source but the bits and pieces I've seen around have him near Curry at least). My thinking is that given his incredible versatility, Draymond would provide substantial lift on any team in the league even if he's not playing with a Curry that teams sell out to stop. He still provides elite defense in all aspects, great passing/rebounding, and pretty much everything but scoring. In other words, he's really **** good, which is why his impact numbers are really **** good.

I guess my point is this - I don't believe in penalizing a guy because he was in an ideal situation. He made the best of what he was given and clearly earned the responsibilities GS has given him. If GS wins the title, they will own the 2nd best 5 year stretch in history, and Green will have been one of the backbones (at worst, co-MVPs with Curry) of that stretch. Who else can say they spearheaded a true dynasty? Russell, MJ, Magic/Kareem, Shaq/Kobe, i.e. all top 15 players all time at worst. Leading a team to what GS has accomplished over the last 5 years is virtually unmatched, and I don't believe it's fair to play hypotheticals with Green or dock him later if he were to join a bottom dweller and do nothing else of note in his career.

[Krodis]

Just saying, this is part of the life of a 4th seed.

Yeah, it's true. But it seemed to me your implication was that was in some way Harden's fault.

Well I tried to actually say I wasn't knocking Harden.

What I am saying though is that it's weird to me to start calling guys on 1st and 2nd seeds lucky for who their opponent is.

That's fair, but it's still not always entirely in the players hands what their competition was. If the Rockets had the same record in the East their first round opponent would have been Brooklyn. Getting the Jazz as a first round opponent is rough, especially if you're talking about a players individual production. If the Wolves don't blow a lead late in game 82 the Rockets get the Spurs and Nuggets instead of the Jazz and Warriors. I know which defenses I'd rather play.

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk

[Dupp]

Rockets really **** up keeping warriors in the game the first three quarters. They just played with no urgency or hustle. Then they lost it.

Robbed us of three game 7s tomorrow.




Surely one game could have been today though

[Doctor MJ]

I'm really excited to see how Draymond is evaluated when he retires. Collinearity of the Warriors plus their overall dominance makes assessing their individual components really tough but Draymond's unique skillset is probably only borne out even remotely well through impact numbers. I bet he looks like KG in those metrics. He's so insanely good at everything but scoring.

It's going to be interesting to see what the Back 9 of Dray's career looks like. I think it's telling that Klay has basically always been considered the bigger free agency prospect. Team's are confident that they could make great use of Klay. Dray is a much bigger wild card.

So long as Dray stays on the Warriors, and stays agile enough enough as he ages to have a normal career arc, his career impact is going to be astonishing. The closest figure that comes to mind is Havlicek, but Green I'd expect to be a tier above that where a spot in the Top 25 is seen as warranted, and perhaps even higher.

But he blows up though and goes to another team, I could see him falling into obscurity quickly.

What it says about how we should rate Dray that his ability to impact like this is likely, in practice, tied to his value in one specific place, is fascinating.

Klay is a plug and play guy. Stick him on any team in the league, they get better. Simple as that. Very safe player in a process dominated by risk.

If Draymond were to leave the Warriors and subsequently see his allure drop, I think people would have to distinguish between "impact" and "goodness". It is true that Draymond is in the perfect team and possibly the best fit throughout history on GS. That's borne out by his presumably insane impact numbers (don't know the best up to date source but the bits and pieces I've seen around have him near Curry at least). My thinking is that given his incredible versatility, Draymond would provide substantial lift on any team in the league even if he's not playing with a Curry that teams sell out to stop. He still provides elite defense in all aspects, great passing/rebounding, and pretty much everything but scoring. In other words, he's really **** good, which is why his impact numbers are really **** good.

I guess my point is this - I don't believe in penalizing a guy because he was in an ideal situation. He made the best of what he was given and clearly earned the responsibilities GS has given him. If GS wins the title, they will own the 2nd best 5 year stretch in history, and Green will have been one of the backbones (at worst, co-MVPs with Curry) of that stretch. Who else can say they spearheaded a true dynasty? Russell, MJ, Magic/Kareem, Shaq/Kobe, i.e. all top 15 players all time at worst. Leading a team to what GS has accomplished over the last 5 years is virtually unmatched, and I don't believe it's fair to play hypotheticals with Green or dock him later if he were to join a bottom dweller and do nothing else of note in his career.

I like that you're talking in terms of impact vs goodness. Definitely something we should think about in particular with Dray, and there's no clear cut right way to decide how to compare him with players who are so different from him.

Rankings aside, there's a reality worth pointing out the reason why a Dray-shaped role on offense & defense emerged in GS was because of the sheer flexibility Kerr prefers in his scheme. He wants his players to figure out the right play from moment to moment. While in theory you could explicitly choose to make Dray your primary playmaker, that isn't really something Kerr ever went out on a limb for. When it started happening, he encouraged it.

It reminds me of conversations we used to have around Nash where it was quite clear that he'd never have become what he did without D'Antoni's freedom, but that freedom didn't create his gifts, it just let them flourish. Should he be penalized because most other coaches would never let that happen?

Again, no clear answer.

What I will say though is that a major chunk of the reason why teams are afraid they won't be able to succeed with Dray is his personality. When it's good, it's wonderful for a team, but it also goes bad. It's a lot like Jimmy Butler's.

The thing about Kerr & Curry's presence in GS is that they've been able to surf that wave and keep it largely positive, but even there we've always seen signs that GS is ready to part with Dray if he becomes too much.

Lacob did just say that he intends to keep Steph & Klay forever...why no mention of Dray? Don't we already know?