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Confirmed: Frank Vogel has agreed to deal to become new head coach, Kidd will be assistant

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Re: Confirmed: Frank Vogel has agreed to deal to become new head coach, Kidd will be assistant 

Post#701 » by WRau1 » Sun May 12, 2019 3:04 am

zimpy27 wrote:
KidA24 wrote:Hey all. Bucks fan here.

Let me give you my super brief JKidd rundown.

He's a terrible coach. He didn't develop young players at all - See MCW, Thon, Rashard Vaughn, Jabari.

He favored playing guys who offered no reasonable skill beyond looking like they tried hard or that were his friends (or friends kids) such as GP3, DeAndre Liggins and Miles Plumlee, and 54 year old Jason Terry.

He also ran an offense that regularly featured initiating it at the elbow through John Henson.

Yes. That elite playmaker, John Henson. Over Middleton, Brogdon or a Giannis.

I have no doubt he'll cause dysfunction in your locker room or on the coaching staff, he avoids blame, and forces it upon everyone else publicly to make himself look good (the opposite of what a good leader does).

Good luck with him.


Giannis credits his development to Kidd and you can see a lot of what makes Giannis so good is replicating elements of Kidds game, things he developed while under Kidd.

Why do Bucks fans try to ignore this? The greatest thing you have is partly because of Kidd


It's been reported several times that Giannis' appreciation of Kidd has been widely overstated, he'd still be coaching here if Giannis didn't agree a change was needed. Kidd also ruined Giannis's confidence with his jumpshot by pulling him whenever he took a wide open 3. He caused a rift between Middleton and Giannis by playing that against one another for leadership of the team. Kidd was a disaster in Milwaukee.
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Re: Confirmed: Frank Vogel has agreed to deal to become new head coach, Kidd will be assistant 

Post#702 » by zimpy27 » Sun May 12, 2019 3:11 am

WRau1 wrote:
zimpy27 wrote:
KidA24 wrote:Hey all. Bucks fan here.

Let me give you my super brief JKidd rundown.

He's a terrible coach. He didn't develop young players at all - See MCW, Thon, Rashard Vaughn, Jabari.

He favored playing guys who offered no reasonable skill beyond looking like they tried hard or that were his friends (or friends kids) such as GP3, DeAndre Liggins and Miles Plumlee, and 54 year old Jason Terry.

He also ran an offense that regularly featured initiating it at the elbow through John Henson.

Yes. That elite playmaker, John Henson. Over Middleton, Brogdon or a Giannis.

I have no doubt he'll cause dysfunction in your locker room or on the coaching staff, he avoids blame, and forces it upon everyone else publicly to make himself look good (the opposite of what a good leader does).

Good luck with him.


Giannis credits his development to Kidd and you can see a lot of what makes Giannis so good is replicating elements of Kidds game, things he developed while under Kidd.

Why do Bucks fans try to ignore this? The greatest thing you have is partly because of Kidd


It's been reported several times that Giannis' appreciation of Kidd has been widely overstated, he'd still be coaching here if Giannis didn't agree a change was needed. Kidd also ruined Giannis's confidence with his jumpshot by pulling him whenever he took a wide open 3. He caused a rift between Middleton and Giannis by playing that against one another for leadership of the team. Kidd was a disaster in Milwaukee.

I've never seen Giannis say anything like that, he's only praised Kidd. Only diss I've ever seen was saying that he would yell and wasn't as gentle as Bud.

Giannis jumpshot doesn't make him great, driving and finishing through contact does. You kind of just proved my point. Being a coach isn't about giving hugs, it's about pushing your players to play a smart efficient brand of basketball based on their strengths. Without Kidd doing that Giannis could be a taller Westbrook without the energy/passing level.
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Re: Confirmed: Frank Vogel has agreed to deal to become new head coach, Kidd will be assistant 

Post#703 » by WRau1 » Sun May 12, 2019 3:15 am

zimpy27 wrote:
WRau1 wrote:
zimpy27 wrote:
Giannis credits his development to Kidd and you can see a lot of what makes Giannis so good is replicating elements of Kidds game, things he developed while under Kidd.

Why do Bucks fans try to ignore this? The greatest thing you have is partly because of Kidd


It's been reported several times that Giannis' appreciation of Kidd has been widely overstated, he'd still be coaching here if Giannis didn't agree a change was needed. Kidd also ruined Giannis's confidence with his jumpshot by pulling him whenever he took a wide open 3. He caused a rift between Middleton and Giannis by playing that against one another for leadership of the team. Kidd was a disaster in Milwaukee.

I've never seen Giannis say anything like that, he's only praised Kidd. Only diss I've ever seen was saying that he would yell and wasn't as gentle as Bud.

Giannis jumpshot doesn't make him great, driving and finishing through contact does. You kind of just proved my point.


Kidd wanted Giannis on the block, the offense was initiated from the high post. He had very little to do with how Giannis plays today. You clearly haven't watched anything with the Bucks or Kidd's time there. Go over to the Milwaukee board and find just one poster that has the same opinion as yours.
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Re: Confirmed: Frank Vogel has agreed to deal to become new head coach, Kidd will be assistant 

Post#704 » by Ill-yasova » Sun May 12, 2019 3:17 am

The first time your team goes through a rough stretch Kidd will be whispering to your brass about how he should be the coach instead. I predict Kidd is your head coach by the All Star Break. My condolences.
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Re: Confirmed: Frank Vogel has agreed to deal to become new head coach, Kidd will be assistant 

Post#705 » by zimpy27 » Sun May 12, 2019 3:20 am

WRau1 wrote:
zimpy27 wrote:
WRau1 wrote:
It's been reported several times that Giannis' appreciation of Kidd has been widely overstated, he'd still be coaching here if Giannis didn't agree a change was needed. Kidd also ruined Giannis's confidence with his jumpshot by pulling him whenever he took a wide open 3. He caused a rift between Middleton and Giannis by playing that against one another for leadership of the team. Kidd was a disaster in Milwaukee.

I've never seen Giannis say anything like that, he's only praised Kidd. Only diss I've ever seen was saying that he would yell and wasn't as gentle as Bud.

Giannis jumpshot doesn't make him great, driving and finishing through contact does. You kind of just proved my point.


Kidd wanted Giannis on the block, the offense was initiated from the high post. He had very little to do with how Giannis plays today. You clearly haven't watched anything with the Bucks or Kidd's time there. Go over to the Milwaukee board and find just one poster that would find someone with the same opinion as yours.


If you never force Giannis to play down-low then he never puts on the bulk to survive. The big step Giannis has taken from last season was to bulk up enough to jump through defenders instead of away. He didn't just play on the block, that's oversimplifying it.

I don't disagree that Kidd is a bad head coach, I think Bucks fans are blinded by his failings as a head coach (which I agree with) to give him the props for how he helped craft Giannis.
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Re: Confirmed: Frank Vogel has agreed to deal to become new head coach, Kidd will be assistant 

Post#707 » by WRau1 » Sun May 12, 2019 3:41 am

zimpy27 wrote:
WRau1 wrote:
zimpy27 wrote:I've never seen Giannis say anything like that, he's only praised Kidd. Only diss I've ever seen was saying that he would yell and wasn't as gentle as Bud.

Giannis jumpshot doesn't make him great, driving and finishing through contact does. You kind of just proved my point.


Kidd wanted Giannis on the block, the offense was initiated from the high post. He had very little to do with how Giannis plays today. You clearly haven't watched anything with the Bucks or Kidd's time there. Go over to the Milwaukee board and find just one poster that would find someone with the same opinion as yours.


If you never force Giannis to play down-low then he never puts on the bulk to survive. The big step Giannis has taken from last season was to bulk up enough to jump through defenders instead of away. He didn't just play on the block, that's oversimplifying it.

I don't disagree that Kidd is a bad head coach, I think Bucks fans are blinded by his failings as a head coach (which I agree with) to give him the props for how he helped craft Giannis.


The only thing(s) Kidd could get credit for is allowing Giannis to play through his mistakes (unless that mistake was taking an open 3) and introducing him to Kobe off the court. Alot has gone right for the Bucks this past year but arguably the best was firing Kidd.
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Re: Confirmed: Frank Vogel has agreed to deal to become new head coach, Kidd will be assistant 

Post#709 » by EggIsCooling » Sun May 12, 2019 4:31 am

Going against the grain... nice! No more excuses for Lonzo... you got imo the best assistant and mentor in JKidd... Lonzo should progress upward bound next year! Vogel will jive with LBJ quite nicely! So Plan A is now done... Plan B and C will hopefully bring some fun and exciting news! Buckle up...
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Re: Confirmed: Frank Vogel has agreed to deal to become new head coach, Kidd will be assistant 

Post#710 » by Dr Aki » Sun May 12, 2019 4:46 am

Muscles wrote:
Read on Twitter


it's only a trojan horse if they didn't know there were soldiers in there

fans are fully aware of kidd
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Re: Confirmed: Frank Vogel has agreed to deal to become new head coach, Kidd will be assistant 

Post#711 » by TylersLakers » Sun May 12, 2019 4:50 am

The Milwaukee fans wishing condolences are hilarious.

I'm dead inside. Being a fan of this team since 2013 has been tiring, and I'm just dead inside now. What a disaster.
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Re: Confirmed: Frank Vogel has agreed to deal to become new head coach, Kidd will be assistant 

Post#712 » by KidA24 » Sun May 12, 2019 5:15 am

zimpy27 wrote:
KidA24 wrote:Hey all. Bucks fan here.

Let me give you my super brief JKidd rundown.

He's a terrible coach. He didn't develop young players at all - See MCW, Thon, Rashard Vaughn, Jabari.

He favored playing guys who offered no reasonable skill beyond looking like they tried hard or that were his friends (or friends kids) such as GP3, DeAndre Liggins and Miles Plumlee, and 54 year old Jason Terry.

He also ran an offense that regularly featured initiating it at the elbow through John Henson.

Yes. That elite playmaker, John Henson. Over Middleton, Brogdon or a Giannis.

I have no doubt he'll cause dysfunction in your locker room or on the coaching staff, he avoids blame, and forces it upon everyone else publicly to make himself look good (the opposite of what a good leader does).

Good luck with him.


Giannis credits his development to Kidd and you can see a lot of what makes Giannis so good is replicating elements of Kidds game, things he developed while under Kidd.

Why do Bucks fans try to ignore this? The greatest thing you have is partly because of Kidd


Source?
Amos Barshad: "So you got a job, a place to live, a license? What’s left?"

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Re: Confirmed: Frank Vogel has agreed to deal to become new head coach, Kidd will be assistant 

Post#713 » by KidA24 » Sun May 12, 2019 5:19 am

zimpy27 wrote:
WRau1 wrote:
zimpy27 wrote:I've never seen Giannis say anything like that, he's only praised Kidd. Only diss I've ever seen was saying that he would yell and wasn't as gentle as Bud.

Giannis jumpshot doesn't make him great, driving and finishing through contact does. You kind of just proved my point.


Kidd wanted Giannis on the block, the offense was initiated from the high post. He had very little to do with how Giannis plays today. You clearly haven't watched anything with the Bucks or Kidd's time there. Go over to the Milwaukee board and find just one poster that would find someone with the same opinion as yours.


If you never force Giannis to play down-low then he never puts on the bulk to survive. The big step Giannis has taken from last season was to bulk up enough to jump through defenders instead of away. He didn't just play on the block, that's oversimplifying it.

I don't disagree that Kidd is a bad head coach, I think Bucks fans are blinded by his failings as a head coach (which I agree with) to give him the props for how he helped craft Giannis.


The idea that Jason Kidd motivated Giannis to be great, instead of his poor upbringing where he had to choose between playing ball or helping to feed his family on a given day is absolutely incorrect.
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Re: Confirmed: Frank Vogel has agreed to deal to become new head coach, Kidd will be assistant 

Post#714 » by RRyder823 » Sun May 12, 2019 5:21 am

zimpy27 wrote:
KidA24 wrote:Hey all. Bucks fan here.

Let me give you my super brief JKidd rundown.

He's a terrible coach. He didn't develop young players at all - See MCW, Thon, Rashard Vaughn, Jabari.

He favored playing guys who offered no reasonable skill beyond looking like they tried hard or that were his friends (or friends kids) such as GP3, DeAndre Liggins and Miles Plumlee, and 54 year old Jason Terry.

He also ran an offense that regularly featured initiating it at the elbow through John Henson.

Yes. That elite playmaker, John Henson. Over Middleton, Brogdon or a Giannis.

I have no doubt he'll cause dysfunction in your locker room or on the coaching staff, he avoids blame, and forces it upon everyone else publicly to make himself look good (the opposite of what a good leader does).

Good luck with him.


Giannis credits his development to Kidd and you can see a lot of what makes Giannis so good is replicating elements of Kidds game, things he developed while under Kidd.

Why do Bucks fans try to ignore this? The greatest thing you have is partly because of Kidd
You're completely over selling Kidds development skills. The best I can say about him is he does a good job of keeping a developing player from developing to many bad habits. Problem is he does this by completely limiting any and all facets of a players game where it might be factor. As an example I guarantee that no one will need to worry about Ball becoming a "chucker" and it'll be because Kidd will expressly forbid him from shooting any and all shots with a player within 5 ft of him.

Absolutely horrible when it comes to setting lineups and rotations. Even worse at managing minutes. Cant draw up a play and is a horrible leader who WILL cause division in the locker room.

As a Bucks fan who has called the Lakers my #2 team since Showtime got me interested in basketball when I was a kid the news of Kidd made me sad (made every other Bucks fan happy though of course)

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Re: Confirmed: Frank Vogel has agreed to deal to become new head coach, Kidd will be assistant 

Post#715 » by zimpy27 » Sun May 12, 2019 5:28 am

KidA24 wrote:
zimpy27 wrote:
KidA24 wrote:Hey all. Bucks fan here.

Let me give you my super brief JKidd rundown.

He's a terrible coach. He didn't develop young players at all - See MCW, Thon, Rashard Vaughn, Jabari.

He favored playing guys who offered no reasonable skill beyond looking like they tried hard or that were his friends (or friends kids) such as GP3, DeAndre Liggins and Miles Plumlee, and 54 year old Jason Terry.

He also ran an offense that regularly featured initiating it at the elbow through John Henson.

Yes. That elite playmaker, John Henson. Over Middleton, Brogdon or a Giannis.

I have no doubt he'll cause dysfunction in your locker room or on the coaching staff, he avoids blame, and forces it upon everyone else publicly to make himself look good (the opposite of what a good leader does).

Good luck with him.


Giannis credits his development to Kidd and you can see a lot of what makes Giannis so good is replicating elements of Kidds game, things he developed while under Kidd.

Why do Bucks fans try to ignore this? The greatest thing you have is partly because of Kidd


Source?

https://www.nba.com/article/2018/01/24/giannis-antetokounmpo-says-jason-kidd-helped-him-grow-dominant-player

Besides that, just look at the way he and Kidd drive to attack the guys down low at the basket like they are ignoring their direct defender, their drive and kick game.

Anyway, this is derailing the thread. Just don't be surprised if Kidd isn't as horrible as you think he is in LA.
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Re: Confirmed: Frank Vogel has agreed to deal to become new head coach, Kidd will be assistant 

Post#716 » by leeprettyp » Sun May 12, 2019 5:28 am

Surprised so many people feel it's a bad hire...
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Re: Confirmed: Frank Vogel has agreed to deal to become new head coach, Kidd will be assistant 

Post#717 » by Landsberger » Sun May 12, 2019 5:29 am

The base seems upset that we've looked at older more established coaches. I get the whole "new game" stuff but I also thing it's so overblown it's not funny as well.

A good coach sets up a system to benefit his players rather than bend his players to a system. We hired a retired coach way back in the late 90's who ran a system developed decades earlier and in no way was "modern" and we did OK. Vogel seems to be a pretty good upgrade to Luke and the hate for Kidd seems really misplaced to me. He's seems perfect for an assistant job. A hell of a lot better than Madsen for example.
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Re: Confirmed: Frank Vogel has agreed to deal to become new head coach, Kidd will be assistant 

Post#718 » by Cafu » Sun May 12, 2019 6:24 am

Decent hire I think. At this rate fans will get mad at everything the FO does lol
People think Kidd is a bad hire not Vogel.
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Re: Confirmed: Frank Vogel has agreed to deal to become new head coach, Kidd will be assistant 

Post#719 » by Kilroy » Sun May 12, 2019 6:44 am

If the plan really is to just have Vogel here to be a buffer until Kidd can take over, then this sucks ass... But if they brought Kidd in to basically mentor Ball, and maybe even Ingram, then this is a decent hire, even if Vogel isn't name brand enough.

If Vogel is coming in thinking Kidd's here to replace him, I can't imagine he's going to put a whole lot into this...
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Re: Confirmed: Frank Vogel has agreed to deal to become new head coach, Kidd will be assistant 

Post#720 » by Doug_12 » Sun May 12, 2019 7:35 am

I'm ok w/ hiring Vogel, for me he seems to be an underrated coach especially in the light he did in Indiana.

The Kidd hire is horrible though: Not sure why he become such a bad coach, maybe because he didn't take his time in learning the job by spending years in the video room then in assistant positions… But that doesn't matter now. He is a bad coach, w/ a drive to be a head coach, adn a tendency to shift blame and put his image in front of team success. He does that even in ridiculous situations: see how he forbid Frank from doing his job as an assistant because he thought no one would see him as a leader if his assistant calls the plays.

Terrible move. This organization is a joke.

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