Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVII

[dckingsfan]

Why would Philly trade Simmons for Beal?

Maybe, but I dont think I do it. I really love Beal. We are rebuilding our team, and more importantly, our culture. You can see it when they interview guys like Bryant and Brown. Beal is THE LEADER of this team and sets the tone with his work ethic and lunch pale personality. We really need that guy to set the tone moving forward. There are REAL concerns about Simmons work ethic and I worry him stepping back into a rebuilding environment may not work out that well for either party. Now, I am assuming Beal does not get the Super Max...so that may change my final decision.

Why does Philly trade Simmons for Beal?

[pcbothwel]

Why would Philly trade Simmons for Beal?

Maybe, but I dont think I do it. I really love Beal. We are rebuilding our team, and more importantly, our culture. You can see it when they interview guys like Bryant and Brown. Beal is THE LEADER of this team and sets the tone with his work ethic and lunch pale personality. We really need that guy to set the tone moving forward. There are REAL concerns about Simmons work ethic and I worry him stepping back into a rebuilding environment may not work out that well for either party. Now, I am assuming Beal does not get the Super Max...so that may change my final decision.

Why does Philly trade Simmons for Beal?

Beal is the better player right now. Beal is the better fit with their roster from a skill set standpoint. Beal is a better fit from a personality standpoint. Beal is the better fit from the age/timeline standpoint.

I think Butler is walking, but I think he would be open to staying if they made the trade.

Why does Philly Not trade Simmons for Beal?

[payitforward]

Why does Philly trade Simmons for Beal?

Beal is the better player right now. Beal is the better fit with their roster from a skill set standpoint. Beal is a better fit from a personality standpoint. Beal is the better fit from the age/timeline standpoint.

I think Butler is walking, but I think he would be open to staying if they made the trade....

Leaving aside your first claim, which is ridiculous, lets look at your other claims.

1. Better fit -- really? Right now Philly starts Simmons at the 1 & Redick at the 2, with Butler, Harris & Embiid up front. W/ Beal on board & Simmons gone, Redick would sit (60.2% TS%) & Beal would start at the 2 (58.2% TS%). Beal's points would go down from where they are now, of course, because he would only get to use the # of possessions (measured by FGAs & FTAs) that Redick gets -- unless you are planning to give him some of the shots Embiid takes, or Butler takes. Is that your idea? The team's points overall also go down, because Beal isn't quite the shooter Redick is. Then again, Beal is enough better at some other things to get those team points back (& a little more) with other things he does. Still, with fewer possessions to use his own points go down.

But, is Beal happy with 17% fewer shots? Lowering his scoring? Maybe.... But, in fact, since Beal takes 50% more shots than Simmons, who's no longer in the picture, maybe he won't even get as many possessions as Redick gets. Hmmm, I wouldn't say there's much evidence for improved fit in this. Especially since...

Who's going to start at point guard on this version of the Sixers? No one on their roster now.

Somehow it seems to me that enters into the "fit" equation -- or am I wrong? Somehow, in fact, I don't see any roster fit whatsoever for Philly in this trade. Not only is it not a reason to do the trade, but all on its own it's probably sufficient reason not to do it.

2. "Personality fit" -- you made this up, right? I mean... Beal's a great guy, no doubt about it. But, still, I mean, gee, come on, you just plain made it up. Right?

3. "Age/timeline fit" -- ummmmmm, how? Because he's older? Why? Plus, for that same set of "age/timeline" reasons, you've just brought a Max salary on board. One that people say might wind up a Supermax salary in 2 years. That's supposed to help retain Jimmy Butler? Who's a better player than Beal.... That's supposed to make Embiid happy? That's going to help retain Tobias Harris, who is expiring this year? You giving him a max salary too? Along with Embiid, Beal, & Butler?

Not to mention, how do you propose to effect this trade? Simmons is on a rookie contract; Beal makes $27m+.

These are the reasons why the Sixers don't trade Ben Simmons for Bradley Beal.

I mean... the reasons other than that they'd be getting a player who, terrific as he is, isn't nearly as good as Simmons, & certainly doesn't have the future development potential of Simmons.

[Dat2U]

Why does Philly trade Simmons for Beal?

Beal is the better player right now. Beal is the better fit with their roster from a skill set standpoint. Beal is a better fit from a personality standpoint. Beal is the better fit from the age/timeline standpoint.

I think Butler is walking, but I think he would be open to staying if they made the trade....

Leaving aside your first claim, which is ridiculous, lets look at your other claims.

1. Better fit -- really? Right now Philly starts Simmons at the 1 & Redick at the 2, with Butler, Harris & Embiid up front. W/ Beal on board & Simmons gone, Redick would sit (60.2% TS%) & Beal would start at the 2 (58.2% TS%). Beal's points would go down from where they are now, of course, because he would only get to use the # of possessions (measured by FGAs & FTAs) that Redick gets -- unless you are planning to give him some of the shots Embiid takes, or Butler takes. Is that your idea? The team's points overall also go down, because Beal isn't quite the shooter Redick is. Then again, Beal is enough better at some other things to get those team points back (& a little more) with other things he does. Still, with fewer possessions to use his own points go down.

But, is Beal happy with 17% fewer shots? Lowering his scoring? Maybe.... But, in fact, since Beal takes 50% more shots than Simmons, who's no longer in the picture, maybe he won't even get as many possessions as Redick gets. Hmmm, I wouldn't say there's much evidence for improved fit in this. Especially since...

Who's going to start at point guard on this version of the Sixers? No one on their roster now.

Somehow it seems to me that enters into the "fit" equation -- or am I wrong? Somehow, in fact, I don't see any roster fit whatsoever for Philly in this trade. Not only is it not a reason to do the trade, but all on its own it's probably sufficient reason not to do it.

2. "Personality fit" -- you made this up, right? I mean... Beal's a great guy, no doubt about it. But, still, I mean, gee, come on, you just plain made it up. Right?

3. "Age/timeline fit" -- ummmmmm, how? Because he's older? Why? Plus, for that same set of "age/timeline" reasons, you've just brought a Max salary on board. One that people say might wind up a Supermax salary in 2 years. That's supposed to help retain Jimmy Butler? Who's a better player than Beal.... That's supposed to make Embiid happy? That's going to help retain Tobias Harris, who is expiring this year? You giving him a max salary too? Along with Embiid, Beal, & Butler?

Not to mention, how do you propose to effect this trade? Simmons is on a rookie contract; Beal makes $27m+.

These are the reasons why the Sixers don't trade Ben Simmons for Bradley Beal.

I mean... the reasons other than that they'd be getting a player who, terrific as he is, isn't nearly as good as Simmons, & certainly doesn't have the future development potential of Simmons.

The only reason Philly considers it is because of Simmons' struggles in the playoffs and perceived issues related to fit with Embiid & Jimmy Butler if they keep him.

I think there is legitimate evidence Simmons is even more deadly without Embiid crowding the paint. Especially on the offensive end. Embiid would likely benefit from having better shooters around him which gives him more room to operate.

Now that's not to say that they aren't very successful as is. In reality they are both young and are not finished products. Philly certainly does not need to trade either but this a team where the owner already indicated this season is a failure if they lose to Toronto so maybe they are a team that could make a drastic move.

Stat wise, Simmons is clearly the better player but since when are NBA deals made specifically based on production? Perception wise because of Simmons' lack of shooting I don't believe its unanimous among NBA circles that Simmons is the better player.

[Dat2U]

If Atlanta gets the 2nd pick, Bradley Beal for Kevin Huerter, Kent Bazemore, the 2nd pick & this years' Dallas pick?

Then trade the Dallas pick to Boston for the 14 & 22.

The Wizards would then have the 2,6,14,22 picks, Kevin Huerter & Troy Brown Jr + RFAs Thomas Bryant & Tomas Satoransky.

[prime1time]

If Atlanta gets the 2nd pick, Bradley Beal for Kevin Huerter, Kent Bazemore, the 2nd pick & this years' Dallas pick?

Then trade the Dallas pick to Boston for the 14 & 22.

The Wizards would then have the 2,6,14,22 picks, Kevin Huerter & Troy Brown Jr + RFAs Thomas Bryant & Tomas Satoransky.

Don't you feel like that'd be too many young players?

[Eli Babak]

If Atlanta gets the 2nd pick, Bradley Beal for Kevin Huerter, Kent Bazemore, the 2nd pick & this years' Dallas pick?

Then trade the Dallas pick to Boston for the 14 & 22.

The Wizards would then have the 2,6,14,22 picks, Kevin Huerter & Troy Brown Jr + RFAs Thomas Bryant & Tomas Satoransky.

Don't you feel like that'd be too many young players?

https://herosports.com/nba/oldest-youngest-teams-start-2018-19-season-byby

I'd rather watch a young team with potential since next season is a waste anyway - or do you want to keep fighting for 8th seed? Just waive Howard (unless someone is dumb enough to trade for him), bring in smart vets like Green & Carter and start our own "process".

Maybe you could trade #14 or #22 for future pick(s) and eat some bad contracts too. Time to get some assets, baby! I love Beal but he's leaving in 2 years because he wants to win. He's been a real pro here and is a good guy but it's just too tough to build around him with Wall's contract and Ernie's terrible moves.

[payitforward]

...The only reason Philly considers it is because of Simmons' struggles in the playoffs and perceived issues related to fit with Embiid & Jimmy Butler if they keep him....

But, of course, acquiring Beal makes it quite complicated to keep Butler. In fact, acquiring Beal seems likely, to me at least, to set off a chain of changes in Philly. IMO, they are way too young to go in that direction.

I think there is legitimate evidence Simmons is even more deadly without Embiid crowding the paint. Especially on the offensive end. Embiid would likely benefit from having better shooters around him which gives him more room to operate.

Perhaps. But, once again, shots aren't free; there are only so many shots. Brad takes 7 more shots per 40 minutes than Simmons. Who's taking 7 fewer shots?

Now that's not to say that they aren't very successful as is. In reality they are both young and are not finished products. Philly certainly does not need to trade either but this a team where the owner already indicated this season is a failure if they lose to Toronto so maybe they are a team that could make a drastic move.

Their ownership isn't too bright, I fear. They over-ruled Hinkie to insist on drafting Okafor. Then they fired Hinkie. Then they hired the Colangelos, then they traded up for Fultz over Jayson (giving a valuable asset in the process), then the Colangelos imploded, & they hired Elton Brand, a guy with little management experience.

Stat wise, Simmons is clearly the better player but since when are NBA deals made specifically based on production? Perception wise because of Simmons' lack of shooting I don't believe its unanimous among NBA circles that Simmons is the better player.

If what you mean is that Philly might trade Simmons b/c they're capable of trading a more productive player for a less productive one (though of course still a helluva productive player!), great -- lets go make that deal immediately!

Love Brad. I'm not eager to trade him. But, Simmons is even better. I'd do the deal 8 days a week.

[payitforward]

If Atlanta gets the 2nd pick, Bradley Beal for Kevin Huerter, Kent Bazemore, the 2nd pick & this years' Dallas pick?

Then trade the Dallas pick to Boston for the 14 & 22.

The Wizards would then have the 2,6,14,22 picks, Kevin Huerter & Troy Brown Jr + RFAs Thomas Bryant & Tomas Satoransky.

Don't you feel like that'd be too many young players?

For what? We won 32 games this year. We are rebuilding.

[payitforward]

If Atlanta gets the 2nd pick, Bradley Beal for Kevin Huerter, Kent Bazemore, the 2nd pick & this years' Dallas pick?

Then trade the Dallas pick to Boston for the 14 & 22.

The Wizards would then have the 2,6,14,22 picks, Kevin Huerter & Troy Brown Jr + RFAs Thomas Bryant & Tomas Satoransky.

Don't you feel like that'd be too many young players?

...I'd rather watch a young team with potential since next season is a waste anyway - or do you want to keep fighting for 8th seed? Just waive Howard (unless someone is dumb enough to trade for him), bring in smart vets like Green & Carter and start our own "process".

Bingo.

...Maybe you could trade #14 or #22 for future pick(s) and eat some bad contracts too. Time to get some assets, baby! I love Beal but he's leaving in 2 years because he wants to win. He's been a real pro here and is a good guy but it's just too tough to build around him with Wall's contract and Ernie's terrible moves.

Bingo again!

[prime1time]

If Atlanta gets the 2nd pick, Bradley Beal for Kevin Huerter, Kent Bazemore, the 2nd pick & this years' Dallas pick?

Then trade the Dallas pick to Boston for the 14 & 22.

The Wizards would then have the 2,6,14,22 picks, Kevin Huerter & Troy Brown Jr + RFAs Thomas Bryant & Tomas Satoransky.

Don't you feel like that'd be too many young players?

https://herosports.com/nba/oldest-youngest-teams-start-2018-19-season-byby

I'd rather watch a young team with potential since next season is a waste anyway - or do you want to keep fighting for 8th seed? Just waive Howard (unless someone is dumb enough to trade for him), bring in smart vets like Green & Carter and start our own "process".

Maybe you could trade #14 or #22 for future pick(s) and eat some bad contracts too. Time to get some assets, baby! I love Beal but he's leaving in 2 years because he wants to win. He's been a real pro here and is a good guy but it's just too tough to build around him with Wall's contract and Ernie's terrible moves.

Because when you have all those young players, it's the blind leading the blind. Brown Jr. And Thomas Bryant have spoken at length about how Beal has helped their development. Which veteran do we rely on to lead the 4 rookies and 3 second year players that we would now have? I'd rather keep Beal. Draft one player and slowly develop him, Brown Jr. and Thomas Bryant.

Is there any example of one team bringing that much young talent at one time? Even if we want to rebuild, there are smart ways to rebuild and non-smart ways. Having a team with 8 first or second year players is extreme. Also, some of these players play the same position and I be 100% against trading Beal to the Hawks. Beal and Trae Young on the same team would be a problem for years to come.

[Dat2U]

Don't you feel like that'd be too many young players?

https://herosports.com/nba/oldest-youngest-teams-start-2018-19-season-byby

I'd rather watch a young team with potential since next season is a waste anyway - or do you want to keep fighting for 8th seed? Just waive Howard (unless someone is dumb enough to trade for him), bring in smart vets like Green & Carter and start our own "process".

Maybe you could trade #14 or #22 for future pick(s) and eat some bad contracts too. Time to get some assets, baby! I love Beal but he's leaving in 2 years because he wants to win. He's been a real pro here and is a good guy but it's just too tough to build around him with Wall's contract and Ernie's terrible moves.

Because when you have all those young players, it's the blind leading the blind. Brown Jr. And Thomas Bryant have spoken at length about how Beal has helped their development. Which veteran do we rely on to lead the 4 rookies and 3 second year players that we would now have? I'd rather keep Beal. Draft one player and slowly develop him, Brown Jr. and Thomas Bryant.

Is there any example of one team bringing that much young talent at one time? Even if we want to rebuild, there are smart ways to rebuild and non-smart ways. Having a team with 8 first or second year players is extreme. Also, some of these players play the same position and I be 100% against trading Beal to the Hawks. Beal and Trae Young on the same team would be a problem for years to come.

I count 4 rookies, 2 2nd year guys and a 3rd year guy. Plenty of room to add some vets.

I also don't see a ton of value in developing likely role players 'slowly' with Beal when Beal's time is right now.

[Ruzious]

Why would Philly trade Simmons for Beal?

They need better spacing, and with Redick set to be a UFA - not to mention 34/35 years old, Beal would be a great fit - as well as a very good player.

[Ruzious]

If Atlanta gets the 2nd pick, Bradley Beal for Kevin Huerter, Kent Bazemore, the 2nd pick & this years' Dallas pick?

Then trade the Dallas pick to Boston for the 14 & 22.

The Wizards would then have the 2,6,14,22 picks, Kevin Huerter & Troy Brown Jr + RFAs Thomas Bryant & Tomas Satoransky.

I mean... you can ask for that, but Atl would have to be beyond absolutely insane to make that trade.

[Dat2U]

If Atlanta gets the 2nd pick, Bradley Beal for Kevin Huerter, Kent Bazemore, the 2nd pick & this years' Dallas pick?

Then trade the Dallas pick to Boston for the 14 & 22.

The Wizards would then have the 2,6,14,22 picks, Kevin Huerter & Troy Brown Jr + RFAs Thomas Bryant & Tomas Satoransky.

I mean... you can ask for that, but Atl would have to be beyond absolutely insane to make that trade.

Is it much different than asking Phoenix for the 2nd, plus Bridges and lightly protected 1st?

[payitforward]

Why would Philly trade Simmons for Beal?

They need better spacing, and with Redick set to be a UFA - not to mention 34/35 years old, Beal would be a great fit - as well as a very good player.

You bet. That would be an excellent reason to acquire Bradley Beal -- or, in principle, any good young SG with a high 3pt. %. Such a player would improve their team.

Of course "any good young SG with a high 3pt. %" would improve any team! Some more than others, obviously; still....

But, Dckingsfan asked why Philly would trade Simmons for Beal. That's a different question. Leaving aside the "who's better" debate, which complicates the debate by involving Wizards fandom in the issue, I'd say that there are significant objections to choosing Simmons as the guy to send out in a deal to replace Redick -- at least on the assumption that Philly retains Butler & Harris.

Beal takes 37% more shots/FTAs than Redick. Does his usage drop down to Redick's level? If so, then the fact that over the last 3 years (his best years), Brad's TS% overall has been just under 58%. Redick's has been @ 60.3%. So, now, your net positive is down not up. But... Beal does more other things on the court. So I think that goes away. Isn't an issue.

But, is Beal happy having his role in the offense reduced to that degree? Doesn't seem likely. Yet, assuming he keeps his usage near where it is now, then if he replaces Redick, where do those shots come from? Embiid? Butler? Harris?

Not Embiid. & over the last 3 years, Butler's TS% has been the same as Beal's overall. So, no advantage in giving his shots to Brad. That leaves Tobias Harris. But, both this year & last year, Harris's TS% has been higher than Brad's (this was a surprise to me, btw).

You see the problem. & if you contemplate trading Beal for a guy who takes fewer shots than Redick -- i.e. Simmons -- the problem becomes even worse. Especially given that Beal plays lots more minutes than Redick.

IOW, the only way for Philly to absorb Beal is to let someone leave who takes a lot of shots. & this is all the more true given the salary Brad brings along with him.

It wouldn't be Embiid, obviously. Between Butler & Harris, I'd let Harris go. But... they just gave up a ton for Tobias Harris! Two R1 picks (1 of them almost certain to be a lottery pick), a guy they picked in R1 9 months ago, & 2 R2 picks.

[Dat2U]

Why would Philly trade Simmons for Beal?

They need better spacing, and with Redick set to be a UFA - not to mention 34/35 years old, Beal would be a great fit - as well as a very good player.

You bet. That would be an excellent reason to acquire Bradley Beal -- or, in principle, any good young SG with a high 3pt. %. Such a player would improve their team.

Of course "any good young SG with a high 3pt. %" would improve any team! Some more than others, obviously; still....

But, Dckingsfan asked why Philly would trade Simmons for Beal. That's a different question. Leaving aside the "who's better" debate, which complicates the debate by involving Wizards fandom in the issue, I'd say that there are significant objections to choosing Simmons as the guy to send out in a deal to replace Redick -- at least on the assumption that Philly retains Butler & Harris.

Beal takes 37% more shots/FTAs than Redick. Does his usage drop down to Redick's level? If so, then the fact that over the last 3 years (his best years), Brad's TS% overall has been just under 58%. Redick's has been @ 60.3%. So, now, your net positive is down not up. But... Beal does more other things on the court. So I think that goes away. Isn't an issue.

But, is Beal happy having his role in the offense reduced to that degree? Doesn't seem likely. Yet, assuming he keeps his usage near where it is now, then if he replaces Redick, where do those shots come from? Embiid? Butler? Harris?

Not Embiid. & over the last 3 years, Butler's TS% has been the same as Beal's overall. So, no advantage in giving his shots to Brad. That leaves Tobias Harris. But, both this year & last year, Harris's TS% has been higher than Brad's (this was a surprise to me, btw).

You see the problem. & if you contemplate trading Beal for a guy who takes fewer shots than Redick -- i.e. Simmons -- the problem becomes even worse. Especially given that Beal plays lots more minutes than Redick.

IOW, the only way for Philly to absorb Beal is to let someone leave who takes a lot of shots. & this is all the more true given the salary Brad brings along with him.

It wouldn't be Embiid, obviously. Between Butler & Harris, I'd let Harris go. But... they just gave up a ton for Tobias Harris! Two R1 picks (1 of them almost certain to be a lottery pick), a guy they picked in R1 9 months ago, & 2 R2 picks.

Philly is certainly not keeping both Butler & Harris. They may want to but I'm pretty sure Harris sees himself as more than a 4th option which he was regulated to once Jimmy arrived.

Jimmy is a great fit for Philly and showed his value in the playoffs but he's not an ideal roster fit as a ball dominant wing alongside Ben Simmons. I think there's a chance Jimmy stays but if so I think Tobias is gone.

[Dat2U]

Requirements in a Beal trade for me:

1. A top 2 pick or an elite level prospect - Tatum, JJJ
2. A lottery pick or a solid young role player - Huerter, Bridges
3. A lightly protected future 1st round pick.

[Ruzious]

Why would Philly trade Simmons for Beal?

They need better spacing, and with Redick set to be a UFA - not to mention 34/35 years old, Beal would be a great fit - as well as a very good player.

You bet. That would be an excellent reason to acquire Bradley Beal -- or, in principle, any good young SG with a high 3pt. %. Such a player would improve their team.

Of course "any good young SG with a high 3pt. %" would improve any team! Some more than others, obviously; still....

But, Dckingsfan asked why Philly would trade Simmons for Beal. That's a different question. Leaving aside the "who's better" debate, which complicates the debate by involving the Wizards in the issue, I'd say that there are significant objections to choosing Simmons as the guy to send out in a deal to replace Redick -- at least on the assumption that Philly retains Butler & Harris.

Beal takes 37% more shots/FTAs than Redick. Does his usage drop down to Redick's level? If so, then the fact that over the last 3 years (his best years), Brad's TS% overall has been just under 58%. Redick's has been @ 60.3%. Now, Beal plays more minutes & does more other things on the court. So I think he winds up contributing more per 40 minutes than Redick rather than less.

But, is Beal happy having his role in the offense reduced to that degree? Doesn't seem likely. Yet, assuming he keeps his usage near where it is now, then if he replaces Redick, where do those shots come from? Embiid? Butler? Harris?

Not Embiid. & over the last 3 years, Butler's TS% has been the same as Beal's overall. So, no advantage in giving his shots to Brad. That leaves Tobias Harris. But, both this year & last year, Harris's TS% has been higher than Brad's (this was a surprise to me, btw).

You see the problem. & if you contemplate Beal replacing a guy who takes fewer shots than Redick -- i.e. Simmons -- the problem becomes even worse.

IOW, the only way for Philly to absorb Beal is to let someone leave who takes a lot of shots. & this is all the more true given the salary Brad brings along with him.

It wouldn't be Embiid, obviously. Between Butler & Harris, I'd let Harris go. But... they just gave up a ton for Tobias Harris! Two R1 picks (1 of them almost certain to be a lottery pick), a guy they picked in R1 9 months ago, & 2 R2 picks.

Let me try this again.

Philly would consider trading Simmons for Beal because they need better spacing, and with Redick set to be a UFA - not to mention 34/35 years old, Beal would be a great fit - as well as a very good player. With better spacing, Philly would not have lost to Toronto. Redick's real good at what he does, but at that age, he could lose it real quickly - not to mention a UFA - since I mentioned it. And they need to get better - not stay the same... or get worse - at spacing the floor.

In basketball, a team isn't necessarily a game of independent parts; the parts have to go together to form a great team. It's like a jigsaw puzzle with say... 15 pieces. If the 2 prettiest pieces are exactly the same, are you going to try jamming one of them into the spot where a smaller piece would fit perfectly? Or are you going to trade one of those shiney pieces for a slightly lesser piece that fits and makes the puzzle whole?

[Ruzious]

Requirements in a Beal trade for me:

1. A top 2 pick or an elite level prospect - Tatum, JJJ
2. A lottery pick or a solid young role player - Huerter, Bridges
3. A lightly protected future 1st round pick.

You really think Tatum's an elite level prospect? In the times he covered Giannis last series, he looked like a boy against a man. Granted, that's the hardest matchup he would get, and Tatum is a solid player. If you consider him an elite player, you have a chance to make a Beal trade with Boston. I don't think you can make a Beal for JJJ and more assets trade.