What's your breaking point (in $) for resigning Vucevic?

[MoMM]

Nice, having a incentive based contract would be very good for us.

[drsd]

Nice, having a incentive based contract would be very good for us.

And-1

But incentives can only be a 15% bump on the contract. So even at 25M a year, incentives can only get Vučević to 28.75M. Will that be enough ???

..

[j-ragg]

Nice, having a incentive based contract would be very good for us.

And-1

But incentives can only be a 15% bump on the contract. So even at 25M a year, incentives can only get Vučević to 28.75M. Will that be enough ???

..

Better go full-max so we can deter all the 18-20 million per year offers out there.

[drsd]

Better go full-max so we can deter all the 18-20 million per year offers out there.

Sarcasm aside: "fans" here need to get beyond such number lines. Think north of 25M a year to create a reasonable scenario that Vučević.


..

[ezzzp]

Lakers were one of the very few teams that actually needed a center and had cap space. Vucevic’s top possibility for big paycheck just hired a coach that he dramatically regressed under and didn’t take advantage of his best skills.

[Mc-o]

Nice, having a incentive based contract would be very good for us.

And-1

But incentives can only be a 15% bump on the contract. So even at 25M a year, incentives can only get Vučević to 28.75M. Will that be enough ???

..

Vucevic is not getting close to 25 mil a year , maybe 20

[VFX]

Better go full-max so we can deter all the 18-20 million per year offers out there.

Sarcasm aside: "fans" here need to get beyond such number lines. Think north of 25M a year to create a reasonable scenario that Vučević.


..

You do know that most organizations that have offered Centers such money totally regret it now... right?

There are currently only 4 even remotely worth that contract. Jokic, Embiid, AD, and maybe Horford. Three of those guys being superstar players.

[ezzzp]

Better go full-max so we can deter all the 18-20 million per year offers out there.

Sarcasm aside: "fans" here need to get beyond such number lines. Think north of 25M a year to create a reasonable scenario that Vučević.


..

You do know that most organizations that have offered Centers such money totally regret it now... right?

There are currently only 4 even remotely worth that contract. Jokic, Embiid, AD, and maybe Horford. Three of those guys being superstar players.

I know you are trying to make a case as to why the Magic shouldn't sign Vucevic...but what you are actually doing is building a case for why its more likely the Magic will retain Vucevic.

You keep pointing out how the market views C's...meanwhile ignoring that same logic for Vucevic getting a "big paycheck," which is the foundation for your argument against Vucevic.

Frank Vogel just got hired as HC for the only team that had both obvious need for a starting C and the cap space to overpay. After being near All-Star, Vucevic regressed most in career under Vogel, who refused to play him to his strengths and never put him in position to succeed...probably worst period in Vucevic's bb career.

Maybe he ignores that for LeBron and ties to USC...but to me his already very limited top $ market, just got even smaller.

[Skin]

There are rumors that teams are considering a max contract of four years and $140.6, which is about $35M a year.

I haven't heard this, what teams are you speaking of?

https://hoopshype.com/rumor/kings-eyeing-nikola-vucevic/

2 months ago – via The Athletic

Multiple folks in the local Sacramento media have claimed that the Kings have serious interest in maxing Nikola Vucevic. Have you heard the same? Sam Amick: @Tim M. I know he’s a target, and I know that it will likely require the max. So, I suppose that’s a confirmation. And thanks for joining me, Tim.

Amick is a trusted source in Sac.

[VFX]

Sarcasm aside: "fans" here need to get beyond such number lines. Think north of 25M a year to create a reasonable scenario that Vučević.


..

You do know that most organizations that have offered Centers such money totally regret it now... right?

There are currently only 4 even remotely worth that contract. Jokic, Embiid, AD, and maybe Horford. Three of those guys being superstar players.

I know you are trying to make a case as to why the Magic shouldn't sign Vucevic...but what you are actually doing is building a case for why its more likely the Magic will retain Vucevic.

You keep pointing out how the market views C's...meanwhile ignoring that same logic for Vucevic getting a "big paycheck," which is the foundation for your argument against Vucevic.

Frank Vogel just got hired as HC for the only team that had both obvious need for a starting C and the cap space to overpay. After being near All-Star, Vucevic regressed most in career under Vogel, who refused to play him to his strengths and never put him in position to succeed...probably worst period in Vucevic's bb career.

Maybe he ignores that for LeBron and ties to USC...but to me his already very limited top $ market, just got even smaller.

Just because teams have paid Centers exorbitant amounts doesn’t mean they won’t continue to do so regardless of what they actually provide. GMs make bad decisions all the time. WeHam might be entirely out at anything over a specific amount .

I’d rather not overpay a C (something that is possible) after spending a #6 pick on one in the draft. Moving money at 20m+ isn’t necessarily easy to match with value unless you take back dead or bad money. Again, my opinion has less to do with the money and more to do with the actual roster construction.

What do you expect will be Vuc’s contract?

[MagicFan101]

People are getting way to focused in on what position a player is labeled as.

a) 7 foot+ human beings are rare. Therefore the sample of available talent to pay is less and hopefully you are beginning to see the flaw in your logic.

b) Teams have come to regret contracts they pay out to players of all positions. Given the natural distribution of available examples this happens more often for guards than centers.

So how about we bring the discussion back to Vuc and his specific worth rather than generalizing off of biased data?

[ezzzp]

You do know that most organizations that have offered Centers such money totally regret it now... right?

There are currently only 4 even remotely worth that contract. Jokic, Embiid, AD, and maybe Horford. Three of those guys being superstar players.

I know you are trying to make a case as to why the Magic shouldn't sign Vucevic...but what you are actually doing is building a case for why its more likely the Magic will retain Vucevic.

You keep pointing out how the market views C's...meanwhile ignoring that same logic for Vucevic getting a "big paycheck," which is the foundation for your argument against Vucevic.

Frank Vogel just got hired as HC for the only team that had both obvious need for a starting C and the cap space to overpay. After being near All-Star, Vucevic regressed most in career under Vogel, who refused to play him to his strengths and never put him in position to succeed...probably worst period in Vucevic's bb career.

Maybe he ignores that for LeBron and ties to USC...but to me his already very limited top $ market, just got even smaller.

Just because teams have paid Centers exorbitant amounts doesn’t mean they won’t continue to do so regardless of what they actually provide. I’d rather not overpay a C (something that is possible) after spending a #6 pick on one in the draft. Moving money at 20m+ isn’t necessarily easy to match with value unless you take back dead or bad money. Again, my opinion has less to do with the money and more to do with the actual roster construction.

First of all, as I have pointed out to you before - the big contracts for C's all came at or right before the historic 2016 salary cap jump. That was a symptom of that cap jump, and the simultaneous devaluation of the C position in NBA. Since then these are the C contracts handed out:

Deandre Jordan: 1y/$22m
Pau Gasol: 3y/$16m per
Mason Plumlee: 3y/$13.7m per
Kelly Olynyk: 4y/$12.5m per
Jusuf Nurkic: 4y/$12m per
Julius Randle: 2y/$9m per
Cristiano Feliciano: 4y/$8.0m per
Dewayne Dedmon: 2y/$7.0m per
Dwight Howard: 2y/$5.5m per
Zaza Pachulia: 1y/$3.5m and 1yr/$2.4m
Alan Williams: 3y/$5.5m
Demarcus Cousins: 1y/$5.4m
Aron Baynes: 1y/$4.3m and 2y/$5.3m per
Greg Monroe: 1y/$5m and 1yr/$2.2m
Mike Muscala: 2y/$5m per
Nerlens Noel: 1yr/$4.5m and 2y/$1.8m per
Ed Davis: 1y/$4.4m
Alex Len: 2y/$4.3m per
Nene: 3y/$3.7m per
Zaza Pachulia: 1y/$3.5m and 1yr/$2.4m
JaVale McGee: 1y/$2.4m
Marreese Speights: 1y/$2.1m
Joffrey Lauvergne: 2y/$1.5m


If your opinion, is based on roster construction then you would be focused on keeping Vucevic.

Aaron Gordon and JI both desperately NEED the spacing, gravity and passing that Vucevic provides for them. The second you take that away you immediately hurt their development and production.

...and before you say, just replace it...that will be near impossible for the Magic to do. Cap space is meaningless to a lottery bound team that just lost its best player and focal point of system. If you don't believe me, take a listen to Woj and Ryan Russillo discussing cap space: starting around 26:00 https://art19.com/shows/thewojpod

AND, If you have Fultz in your plans, guess what - he'll also need the spacing + a pivot with sound hands and gravity to work off in PnR's/PnPops.

Bamba was outplayed by an undersized Euro league back up. Birch was a solid player, but he showed just how raw and not ready Bamba is. Bamba's body broke down half way through the season playing backup minutes...and you want to force feed him into starter minutes vs bigger and better players?! Force feeding Bamba into a starters role that he is not physically able to handle and unable to handle skill-wise + on a team now focused on winning games is putting him in a position to fail. That is the ABSOLUTE WORST way to develop players.

[ezzzp]

There are rumors that teams are considering a max contract of four years and $140.6, which is about $35M a year.

I haven't heard this, what teams are you speaking of?

https://hoopshype.com/rumor/kings-eyeing-nikola-vucevic/

2 months ago – via The Athletic

Multiple folks in the local Sacramento media have claimed that the Kings have serious interest in maxing Nikola Vucevic. Have you heard the same? Sam Amick: @Tim M. I know he’s a target, and I know that it will likely require the max. So, I suppose that’s a confirmation. And thanks for joining me, Tim.

Amick is a trusted source in Sac.

So they're going to just let Willy Cauley-Stein walk in restricted free agency? He was crucial to their success, and arguably their 3d most important player (maybe even 2nd most). He had their highest VORP, BPM, WS, and was 3d in PER.

If they match, and pay Vucevic a max, they'd be burying WCS who is ready now, and also eliminating their successful small ball lineups with Bagley and/or Gilles. Plus they added just Harrison Barnes at the trade deadline.

Makes no sense from bb pov...sounds more like the usual rumors of every player from that region being linked to Vlade. Remember when Sacramento was going to throw a ton of money at Mario Hezonja?

[Skin]

I don't think anybody who is in favor Bamba and against Vuc wants Bamba to start next year. That's not an arguing point. But he should be starting by his 3rd year which would be the second year of Vuc's new deal and THAT is where the issue lies.

Finding a vet to fill in that intermediate role or resigning Vuc long term.

[VFX]

I don't think anybody who is in favor Bamba and against Vuc wants Bamba to start next year. That's not an arguing point. But he should be starting by his 3rd year which would be the second year of Vuc's new deal and THAT is where the issue lies.

Finding a vet to fill in that intermediate role or resigning Vuc long term.

Exactly. He’s not going to take a **** 2 year deal. He’s going to want the biggest contract of his career. Whether or not this FO will pay that is another story. Bamba is on a rookie scale contract and we lack production form other positions.

[ezzzp]

I don't think anybody who is in favor Bamba and against Vuc wants Bamba to start next year. That's not an arguing point. But he should be starting by his 3rd year which would be the second year of Vuc's new deal and THAT is where the issue lies.

Finding a vet to fill in that intermediate role or resigning Vuc long term.

What a player should be, and what NBA reality is, are totally different things.

As a 6th pick he should have been able to easily handle back up minutes without being one of the worst players in the NBA: http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/page/13 ...and without his body breaking down. NBA reality had a different idea.

If Bamba is ready by year 3, which is definitely not a given, NOTHING is stopping him from pushing Vucevic to a back up/6th man role.

Hezonja should have been ready by year 3, but he wasn't. Rob Hennigan used the same logic as you, and he dealt away Oladipo and Harris because he was convinced that "should" and "reality" were the same thing.

[Skin]

I don't think anybody who is in favor Bamba and against Vuc wants Bamba to start next year. That's not an arguing point. But he should be starting by his 3rd year which would be the second year of Vuc's new deal and THAT is where the issue lies.

Finding a vet to fill in that intermediate role or resigning Vuc long term.

Exactly. He’s not going to take a **** 2 year deal. He’s going to want the biggest contract of his career. Whether or not this FO will pay that is another story. Bamba is on a rookie scale contract and we lack production form other positions.

This has been repeated over and over but it's not a point that is acknowledged much.

[VFX]

I know you are trying to make a case as to why the Magic shouldn't sign Vucevic...but what you are actually doing is building a case for why its more likely the Magic will retain Vucevic.

You keep pointing out how the market views C's...meanwhile ignoring that same logic for Vucevic getting a "big paycheck," which is the foundation for your argument against Vucevic.

Frank Vogel just got hired as HC for the only team that had both obvious need for a starting C and the cap space to overpay. After being near All-Star, Vucevic regressed most in career under Vogel, who refused to play him to his strengths and never put him in position to succeed...probably worst period in Vucevic's bb career.

Maybe he ignores that for LeBron and ties to USC...but to me his already very limited top $ market, just got even smaller.

Just because teams have paid Centers exorbitant amounts doesn’t mean they won’t continue to do so regardless of what they actually provide. I’d rather not overpay a C (something that is possible) after spending a #6 pick on one in the draft. Moving money at 20m+ isn’t necessarily easy to match with value unless you take back dead or bad money. Again, my opinion has less to do with the money and more to do with the actual roster construction.

If your opinion, is based on roster construction then you would be focused on keeping Vucevic.

Aaron Gordon and JI both desperately NEED the spacing, gravity and passing that Vucevic provides for them. The second you take that away you immediately hurt their development and production.

...and before you say, just replace it...that will be near impossible for the Magic to do. Cap space is meaningless to a lottery bound team that just lost its best player and focal point of system. If you don't believe me, take a listen to Woj and Ryan Russillo discussing cap space: starting around 26:00 https://art19.com/shows/thewojpod

AND, If you have Fultz in your plans, guess what - he'll also need the spacing + a pivot with sound hands and gravity to work off in PnR's/PnPops.

Bamba was outplayed by an undersized Euro league back up. Birch was a solid player, but he showed just how raw and not ready Bamba is. Bamba's body broke down half way through the season playing backup minutes...and you want to force feed him into starter minutes vs bigger and better players?! Force feeding Bamba into a starters role that he is not physically able to handle and unable to handle skill-wise + on a team now focused on winning games is putting him in a position to fail. That is the ABSOLUTE WORST way to develop players.

Lol you are talking about “spacing” in a pro Vuc argument? AG and Isaac looked exponentially better in the playoff series without Vuc. Not only that, but neither are gifted shooters for that statement to make sense. They don’t “desperately” need him. Why? For the offense to be 26th in pace of play and 21st in offensive efficiency? Give me a break. Birch can start over Bamba until he is ready and it won’t cost Orlando 20+m for 3-5 seasons.

Oh yeah. And I listened to the podcast. Doesn’t correlate to Orlando because they aren’t trading a superstar for draft picks and banking on free agency. Vuc has been with the team for what will be 8 seasons. It’s not “giving up” on a player the FO has no ties to in their tenure. It’s called going a different direction and happens frequently.

You and I have already stated our opinions and won’t budge in our stances. Argue with someone else.

[ezzzp]

I don't think anybody who is in favor Bamba and against Vuc wants Bamba to start next year. That's not an arguing point. But he should be starting by his 3rd year which would be the second year of Vuc's new deal and THAT is where the issue lies.

Finding a vet to fill in that intermediate role or resigning Vuc long term.

Exactly. He’s not going to take a **** 2 year deal. He’s going to want the biggest contract of his career. Whether or not this FO will pay that is another story. Bamba is on a rookie scale contract and we lack production form other positions.

This has been repeated over and over but it's not a point that is acknowledged much.

That's because nobody is really saying it except for you two who keep bringing it up to each other...nobody is acknowledging that Vucevic won't play for minimum wage either...because duh, does that need to be pointed out?

[ezzzp]

Lol you are talking about “spacing” in a pro Vuc argument? AG and Isaac looked exponentially better in the playoff series without Vuc. Not only that, but neither are gifted shooters for that statement to make sense. They don’t “desperately” need him. Why? For the offense to be 26th in pace of play and 21st in offensive efficiency? Give me a break. Birch can start over Bamba until he is ready and it won’t cost Orlando 20+m for 3-5 seasons.

Oh yeah. And I listened to the podcast. Doesn’t correlate to Orlando because they aren’t trading a superstar for draft picks and banking on free agency. Vuc has been with the team for what will be 8 seasons. It’s not “giving up” on a player the FO has no ties to in their tenure. It’s called going a different direction and happens frequently.

You and I have already stated our opinions and won’t budge in our stances. Argue with someone else.

LMAO are you seriously NOT aware of how Vucevic spaces the floor? That pretty much reveals everything.

Vucevic shot .364 3P% - that's 5th best % for starting C's in NBA. Only KAT, M Turner, D Dedmon and B Lopez shot it better. He also shot it well from 16'-3P line at 43%. That's before even discussing how much gravity he creates the second he touches the ball and how every night team's primary game plan is to slow Vucevic.

Isaac looked better?! Toronto didn't even defend Isaac outside of 16' and he still shot it poorly. All of Toronto's focus was on stopping Vucevic (and to lesser extent DJ and Fournier)...they conceded Gordon (put their PG on him many possessions) and where more than happy to let him fire away. Did you even watch the playoffs?

Oh and FYI during regular season:

Vucevic + Gordon (1739 min) = ORTG: 107.9 | DRTG: 104.3 | NETRTG: +3.6 | PIE: 52.8
Bamba + Gordon (414 min) = ORTG: 91.3 | DRTG: 106.0 |NETRTG: -14.7 | PIE: 42.0
Birch + Gordon (432 min) = ORTG: 106.5 | DRTG: 103.0 | NETRTG: +6.2 | PIE: 52.9

Vucevic + Isaac (1739 min) = ORTG: 107.9 | DRTG: 104.3 | NETRTG: +3.6 | PIE: 52.8
Bamba + Isaac (216 min) = ORTG: 87.3 | DRTG: 107.5 | NETRTG: -20.2 | PIE: 36.4
Birch + Isaac (0 min) = ORTG: na | DRTG: na | NETRTG: na | PIE: na

Vucevic + Gordon + Isaac (1004 min) = ORTG: 107.0 | DRTG: 104.6 | NETRTG: +2.4 | PIE: 52.8
Bamba + Gordon + Isaac (23 min) = ORTG: 81.8 | DRTG: 114.3 | NETRTG: -32.5 | PIE: 25.9
Birch + Gordon + Isaac (0 min) = ORTG: na | DRTG: na | NETRTG: na | PIE: na

...and that's with lineups featuring Vucevic mostly being vs starters, meanwhile Bamba/Birch's were vs bench units. Isaac and Birch must have been so bad together in practice that Clifford just flat out didn't play them a single minute in real games.

You can pretend like what Woj said doesn't apply to Magic, but it absolutely applies - even more so - as Magic are small market team that have been in 7 year rebuild with 5 coaches and 2 front offices.