What's your breaking point (in $) for resigning Vucevic?

[VFX]

Lol you are talking about “spacing” in a pro Vuc argument? AG and Isaac looked exponentially better in the playoff series without Vuc. Not only that, but neither are gifted shooters for that statement to make sense. They don’t “desperately” need him. Why? For the offense to be 26th in pace of play and 21st in offensive efficiency? Give me a break. Birch can start over Bamba until he is ready and it won’t cost Orlando 20+m for 3-5 seasons.

Oh yeah. And I listened to the podcast. Doesn’t correlate to Orlando because they aren’t trading a superstar for draft picks and banking on free agency. Vuc has been with the team for what will be 8 seasons. It’s not “giving up” on a player the FO has no ties to in their tenure. It’s called going a different direction and happens frequently.

You and I have already stated our opinions and won’t budge in our stances. Argue with someone else.

LMAO are you seriously NOT aware of how Vucevic spaces the floor? That pretty much reveals everything.

Vucevic shot .364 3P% - that's 5th best % for starting C's in NBA. Only KAT, M Turner, D Dedmon and B Lopez shot it better. He also shot it well from 16'-3P line at 43%. That's before even discussing how much gravity he creates the second he touches the ball and how every night team's primary game plan is to slow Vucevic.

Isaac looked better?! Toronto didn't even defend Isaac outside of 16' and he still shot it poorly. All of Toronto's focus was on stopping Vucevic (and to lesser extent DJ and Fournier)...they conceded Gordon (put their PG on him many possessions) and where more than happy to let him fire away. Did you even watch the playoffs?

Oh and FYI during regular season:

Vucevic + Gordon (1739 min) = ORTG: 107.9 | DRTG: 104.3 | NETRTG: +3.6 | PIE: 52.8
Bamba + Gordon (414 min) = ORTG: 91.3 | DRTG: 106.0 |NETRTG: -14.7 | PIE: 42.0
Birch + Gordon (432 min) = ORTG: 106.5 | DRTG: 103.0 | NETRTG: +6.2 | PIE: 52.9

Vucevic + Isaac (1739 min) = ORTG: 107.9 | DRTG: 104.3 | NETRTG: +3.6 | PIE: 52.8
Bamba + Isaac (216 min) = ORTG: 87.3 | DRTG: 107.5 | NETRTG: -20.2 | PIE: 36.4
Birch + Isaac (0 min) = ORTG: na | DRTG: na | NETRTG: na | PIE: na

Vucevic + Gordon + Isaac (1004 min) = ORTG: 107.0 | DRTG: 104.6 | NETRTG: +2.4 | PIE: 52.8
Bamba + Gordon + Isaac (23 min) = ORTG: 81.8 | DRTG: 114.3 | NETRTG: -32.5 | PIE: 25.9
Birch + Gordon + Isaac (0 min) = ORTG: na | DRTG: na | NETRTG: na | PIE: na

...and that's with lineups featuring Vucevic mostly being vs starters, meanwhile Bamba/Birch's were vs bench units. Isaac and Birch must have been so bad together in practice that Clifford just flat out didn't play them a single minute in real games.

You can pretend like what Woj said doesn't apply to Magic, but it absolutely applies - even more so - as Magic are small market team that have been in 7 year rebuild with 5 coaches and 2 front offices.

He doesn’t. You can post “LMAO” as much as you want, but he only averaged 2.9 attempts (less than last year under a real coach right?) and 3.7 assists per game. So that argument falls apart entirely. You are arguing to double down on an inside out system without the necessary roster to make that successful. Foolish.

Yeah I watched the playoffs.. Vuc was a complete non factor and got completely exposed as an “allstar”. AG was the only one doing anything of note on both ends of the floor and looked better in an open floor without getting killed in the half court against superior defense.

You can also post whatever you want about comparing a rookie Bamba’s stats on limited playing time in a second unit. That’s not the argument and I’d assume you were smarter than that comparison.

Yeah, the Magic have been bad all of those years with Vuc you must have seemed to miss that.

[Skin]

Why can't Bamba spread the floor but Vuc can? In terms of range, Vuc was no where near Bamba at the same age.

[ezzzp]

Why can't Bamba spread the floor but Vuc can? In terms of range, Vuc was no where near Bamba at the same age.

Because Bamba shot 30% from 3pt range in 1/3 of volume + he can't create for other's from the nail and beyond like Vucevic can.

Vucevic only began to shoot 3's last couple of seasons, but he has always been a good perimeter shooter. It was a natural evolution of his game as the NBA began to demand bigs do that.

[bargnanimvp]

Went 24. Gut says it should be closer to 20 though. On 4 years I'd be willing to go higher but make the 4th year a team option. 3 year deal for me is perfect, with how bamba is looking it's not unreasonable to assume he will need a couple years backing up Vuc and Vuc in his final year would be tradeable as an expiring.

[Skin]

Why can't Bamba spread the floor but Vuc can? In terms of range, Vuc was no where near Bamba at the same age.

Because Bamba shot 30% from 3pt range + he can't create for other's from the nail and beyond like Vucevic can.

Vucevic only began to shoot 3's last season, but he has always been a good perimeter shooter. It was a natural evolution of his game as the NBA began to demand bigs do that.

But Bamba's upside is high... plus on the other side of the ball he has more natural defensive potential to unharness. Also, increasing the speed of the game cannot be overlooked as a benefit to Gordon and Isaac.

[ezzzp]

Lol you are talking about “spacing” in a pro Vuc argument? AG and Isaac looked exponentially better in the playoff series without Vuc. Not only that, but neither are gifted shooters for that statement to make sense. They don’t “desperately” need him. Why? For the offense to be 26th in pace of play and 21st in offensive efficiency? Give me a break. Birch can start over Bamba until he is ready and it won’t cost Orlando 20+m for 3-5 seasons.

Oh yeah. And I listened to the podcast. Doesn’t correlate to Orlando because they aren’t trading a superstar for draft picks and banking on free agency. Vuc has been with the team for what will be 8 seasons. It’s not “giving up” on a player the FO has no ties to in their tenure. It’s called going a different direction and happens frequently.

You and I have already stated our opinions and won’t budge in our stances. Argue with someone else.

LMAO are you seriously NOT aware of how Vucevic spaces the floor? That pretty much reveals everything.

Vucevic shot .364 3P% - that's 5th best % for starting C's in NBA. Only KAT, M Turner, D Dedmon and B Lopez shot it better. He also shot it well from 16'-3P line at 43%. That's before even discussing how much gravity he creates the second he touches the ball and how every night team's primary game plan is to slow Vucevic.

Isaac looked better?! Toronto didn't even defend Isaac outside of 16' and he still shot it poorly. All of Toronto's focus was on stopping Vucevic (and to lesser extent DJ and Fournier)...they conceded Gordon (put their PG on him many possessions) and where more than happy to let him fire away. Did you even watch the playoffs?

Oh and FYI during regular season:

Vucevic + Gordon (1739 min) = ORTG: 107.9 | DRTG: 104.3 | NETRTG: +3.6 | PIE: 52.8
Bamba + Gordon (414 min) = ORTG: 91.3 | DRTG: 106.0 |NETRTG: -14.7 | PIE: 42.0
Birch + Gordon (432 min) = ORTG: 106.5 | DRTG: 103.0 | NETRTG: +6.2 | PIE: 52.9

Vucevic + Isaac (1739 min) = ORTG: 107.9 | DRTG: 104.3 | NETRTG: +3.6 | PIE: 52.8
Bamba + Isaac (216 min) = ORTG: 87.3 | DRTG: 107.5 | NETRTG: -20.2 | PIE: 36.4
Birch + Isaac (0 min) = ORTG: na | DRTG: na | NETRTG: na | PIE: na

Vucevic + Gordon + Isaac (1004 min) = ORTG: 107.0 | DRTG: 104.6 | NETRTG: +2.4 | PIE: 52.8
Bamba + Gordon + Isaac (23 min) = ORTG: 81.8 | DRTG: 114.3 | NETRTG: -32.5 | PIE: 25.9
Birch + Gordon + Isaac (0 min) = ORTG: na | DRTG: na | NETRTG: na | PIE: na

...and that's with lineups featuring Vucevic mostly being vs starters, meanwhile Bamba/Birch's were vs bench units. Isaac and Birch must have been so bad together in practice that Clifford just flat out didn't play them a single minute in real games.

You can pretend like what Woj said doesn't apply to Magic, but it absolutely applies - even more so - as Magic are small market team that have been in 7 year rebuild with 5 coaches and 2 front offices.

He doesn’t. You can post “LMAO” as much as you want, but he only averaged 2.9 attempts (less than last year under a real coach right?) and 3.7 assists per game. So that argument falls apart entirely. You are arguing to double down on an inside out system without the necessary roster to make that successful. Foolish.

Yeah I watched the playoffs.. Vuc was a complete non factor and got completely exposed as an “allstar”. AG was the only one doing anything of note on both ends of the floor and looked better in an open floor without getting killed in the half court against superior defense.

You can also post whatever you want about comparing a rookie Bamba’s stats on limited playing time in a second unit. That’s not the argument and I’d assume you were smarter than that comparison.

Yeah, the Magic have been bad all of those years with Vuc you must have seemed to miss that.

Yea he does...its laughable that you are even saying that.

3 a game (231 total) is very solid for a C (6th amongst starting C's), what in the world are you talking about...and he's building on that, its only going to get better.

That was his first real playoffs and vs his worst possible matchup (see Embiid vs Gasol)...you think by now you would have learned that argument was terrible.

Limited playing time? 47 games at 16mpg? What?

That's primary back up minutes. In that time, Bamba was literally one of the worst players in the NBA:

http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/page/13

Thinking that he'll be ready to start next season is as ridiculous as the people insisting he would be ready as a rookie - I'm going to guess you were one of those people. LMAO

...and in case you missed the memo, the Magic were tanking for most of Vucevic's tenure on Magic...maybe that had something to do with it...smh

[ezzzp]

Why can't Bamba spread the floor but Vuc can? In terms of range, Vuc was no where near Bamba at the same age.

Because Bamba shot 30% from 3pt range + he can't create for other's from the nail and beyond like Vucevic can.

Vucevic only began to shoot 3's last season, but he has always been a good perimeter shooter. It was a natural evolution of his game as the NBA began to demand bigs do that.

But Bamba's upside is high... plus on the other side of the ball he has more natural defensive potential to unharness. Also, increasing the speed of the game cannot be overlooked as a benefit to Gordon and Isaac.

Upside is not reality...Bamba couldn't even outplay Birch as rookie, so its a massive presumption to assume he'll be same or better than Vucevic. He could just as easily end up like Biyombo (7th pick), Thabeet (2nd pick) or endless list of raw but "high upside" bigs with physical gifts that just never figured it out in NBA or just became role players. I have high hopes for him, but "upside" doesn't mean anything...real production does...and he hasn't done that at all.

Increasing the speed also requires higher bbIQ and better handles and natural scoring/passing instincts to cope with speed...none of that sounds like AG/Isaac.

Faster pace doesn't equal good...in fact, fastest teams are very often worst teams trying to fluff up stats to sell hope. It takes special roster and special PG to play fast and win in NBA...and its rarely a good defensive team.

[Bensational]

The comps between Vuc and Bamba aren't necessary. It's clear Bamba wasn't ready to be an impact player this year. It didn't do him any favours playing with Grant, either, but Bamba's poor numbers can't be blamed purely on that. Hopefully he'll figure the game out over the next couple of seasons and become capable of being a larger contributor.

In terms of Vuc and a cut off number for him, I'd be reticent to pay more than $20M a year for him, and would like a team option after the 2nd year. This wouldn't even be with Bamba in mind. Whilst I really like Bamba and have high hopes for him, frankly, I think big men are the least of our concerns. I'd give Bamba up for a young guard prospect any day. Cheap, roleplaying C's can be found every year, or they can be acquired for next to nothing through trade. They should be the last addition to a squad, in my opinion.

That doesn't help us in regards to Vuc, though. He's our offensive focal point, and our backcourt lacks anyone capable to stepping up to mitigate the loss of his impact, other than Fultz (who we all know is a wild card). The thing with Vuc, though, is that he's not a C who belongs in the same breath as the likes of Embiid, Jokic, Davis and others. Why? Because those guys, as offensive options, are capable of moving with the ball and consequently disrupting the defense. Vuc's offense, as reliable as it is, is primarily a game of him planting in a location and either taking a shot or making a pass. It's obvious why that was easy for Toronto to defend, because he was always going to be contained to one area. Those other elite names can move and disrupt a defense, commanding double teams that put the other team in a position of weakness, rather than a planned double team that knew it just had to hit the same spot at the same time.

But if you don't resign Vuc, what do you do with that money instead? There's no point sinking big bucks into lesser names at the risk of them becoming an Allen Crabbe/Tim Hardaway type overpaid bust. If you let Vuc and Ross walk, maybe you can wait until pieces start getting traded in the summer and steal some value by absorbing a big contract. Either way, the cap space to spend on FAs won't be of any use to us hoping to sign a big name, and next year's FA crop is weak.

If you do resign him, then you've got to juggle a timeline considering Bamba is in the wings. (Or, in that case, I would much rather trade Bamba for a backcourt upgrade). For the foreseeable future, I think we could be best served by retaining Vuc, trading for the likes of JRue or Conley, and trying to add to our future depth, hoping one of those eventuates into a star. But if Vuc remains our primary offensive option, we'll continue to be hindered unless he learns to move with the ball. Otherwise, he might find himself playing a Marc Gasol-like role, camping out on the 3pt line and waiting to knock down open shots or make passes, and anchoring a defense. At which point, then you have to question if he's a good enough defender to warrant $20M a year as a 3 & D big man.

[VFX]

In terms of Vuc and a cut off number for him, I'd be reticent to pay more than $20M a year for him, and would like a team option after the 2nd year. This wouldn't even be with Bamba in mind. Whilst I really like Bamba and have high hopes for him, frankly, I think big men are the least of our concerns. I'd give Bamba up for a young guard prospect any day. Cheap, roleplaying C's can be found every year, or they can be acquired for next to nothing through trade. They should be the last addition to a squad, in my opinion.

We all want those numbers and a team option. It’s just not going to happen. With the future Free Agent crop being bad there are few ways for other teams to get better for contention. I could easily see another team making an offer for him. This is why I think he’s either going to be overpaid or let go. A 2 year team friendly deal isn’t what he is looking for after this season at 28. His next contract will be far less at 32+ years old as a C. I’d agree with trading Bamba, but like you said nobody is giving up prime guard prospects with C’s that can be had on the cheap. With that in mind, it’s no wonder people were pissed we drafted him with limited back court options. I think they should just commit to Bamba’s development regardless of what happens with Vuc.

That doesn't help us in regards to Vuc, though. He's our offensive focal point, and our backcourt lacks anyone capable to stepping up to mitigate the loss of his impact, other than Fultz (who we all know is a wild card). The thing with Vuc, though, is that he's not a C who belongs in the same breath as the likes of Embiid, Jokic, Davis and others. Why? Because those guys, as offensive options, are capable of moving with the ball and consequently disrupting the defense. Vuc's offense, as reliable as it is, is primarily a game of him planting in a location and either taking a shot or making a pass. It's obvious why that was easy for Toronto to defend, because he was always going to be contained to one area. Those other elite names can move and disrupt a defense, commanding double teams that put the other team in a position of weakness, rather than a planned double team that knew it just had to hit the same spot at the same time.

Exactly. True “Allstars” shouldn’t be able to be completely mitigated due to a few adjustments or change in defensive strategy. They adapt and make the game work for them. He didn’t do it. He’s a primary option for Orlando simply because there have been no other options. However, that doesn’t mean another player couldn’t step up and take on a larger role without him.

But if you don't resign Vuc, what do you do with that money instead? There's no point sinking big bucks into lesser names at the risk of them becoming an Allen Crabbe/Tim Hardaway type overpaid bust. If you let Vuc and Ross walk, maybe you can wait until pieces start getting traded in the summer and steal some value by absorbing a big contract. Either way, the cap space to spend on FAs won't be of any use to us hoping to sign a big name, and next year's FA crop is weak.

You take bad contracts coupled with draft picks and make good selections (which is now the cost of getting rid of bad deals). Free Agency is never an option for Orlando until we can build around a star player and the rest of the league takes notice. Resigning Isaac, and hopefully by that time Fultz, will be prioritized by WeHam considering they made moves for them under their watch. Birch is another guy that deserves resigning if Vuc doesn’t. I’d want to keep TRoss too, but it sounds like it’s all or nothing with Vuc.

If you do resign him, then you've got to juggle a timeline considering Bamba is in the wings. (Or, in that case, I would much rather trade Bamba for a backcourt upgrade). For the foreseeable future, I think we could be best served by retaining Vuc, trading for the likes of JRue or Conley, and trying to add to our future depth, hoping one of those eventuates into a star. But if Vuc remains our primary offensive option, we'll continue to be hindered unless he learns to move with the ball. Otherwise, he might find himself playing a Marc Gasol-like role, camping out on the 3pt line and waiting to knock down open shots or make passes, and anchoring a defense. At which point, then you have to question if he's a good enough defender to warrant $20M a year as a 3 & D big man.

Resigning Vuc will be a commitment to pushing for the playoffs without the roster to accomplish anything. Trading Bamba would be WeHam admitting their ineptitude for selecting him and wasting whatever value a #6 pick should have. They wouldn’t get a decent return considering his value probably isn’t high at this point. Meanwhile, SGA started 72 games at 27mpg for a playoff team his rookie year. Nevertheless, the answer to your question is probably no - it’s not worth it in the long run.

Memphis is actually a great comparison for where Orlando will be, sans Conley, should they resign Vuc and commit to this current roster. Finding it difficult to get out of the first round of the playoffs with an archaic offense, and great defense. A team built around an overlooked Center as the focal point, that ends up being a 4th option on a real team when he leaves his small market.

Anyway, quality post per usual Ben.

[pepe1991]

Problem is perception.
Vučević is allstar. One side overvalues what that means, other side undervalues what it means.


Allstars don't save your a*s or make you contenders, they make you playoff teams. That's objective expetation from allstar. To be in playoffs. Nothing more than that.

Let's separate allstars in two categories for a second:
superstars and rest.

Who are superstars? Giannis, Lebron, Durant, Curry, Harden, Leonard.
That's literally it. Nobody else belongs in this category. No AD, no Westbrook, no Geroge. no Embiid, Simmons, Jokić, Irving. They simply are not that level.

You look at production of players through this playoffs and you see pattern. Allstars can be and are stopped. Superstars can't be stopped.

Embiid- terrible playoffs.
Lillard - 3-17 in elimination game, shot 25% for 3 in series.
Middleton - 25% from the floor in last two games.
Siakam 11 points in game 7
Lowry -10 games in game 7 , pretty bad series in general
Simmons - 5 FGA in game 7
Irving 35% FG ,22% for 3 vs Bucks
Horford 9 points in elimination game , 1 FTA in last two games.
Mitchell , 32% FG from the floor
Vučević - 37% FG from the floor
Westbrook -36% FG from the floor
George , on paper had great series, but guy had more turnovers than assists.
Derozan 33% in elimination game
Drummond more TOs than assists ( 10% FG lower than in regular season).

Some of them had good playoffs overall ( Jokić, McCullum, Butler.... ) but most allstars don't do anything special once they get targeted by defense , if they are lead players on their teams.
However, having allstar behind superstar is different story.

During regular season having allstar means a lot, they make difference, frankly because only 4% of total players are allstars (20 of around 550), so level of talent is noticable. But in playoffs every team has at least one and that talent disparity is cristal clear.

In context of Magic, they don't have superstar, they don't have anybody who can become superstar, and trip to lottery next year won't get you one. Keeping assets and waiting for major trade is most logical direction team can take. Not signing Vučević and Ross will decrease value of their youth because they will be asked to do more they are equiped to do now, also youth loses valuse with more exposure, as they come closer to end of rookie scale contract . Gordon in 6th, Isaac and Fultz in 3rd, Bamba in second season are no longer that green and appealing as rookies are.
Also losing Vuc-Ross won't make you cap space to add value to equal their production due salary limitations.

[VFX]

In context of Magic, they don't have superstar,

Correct.

they don't have anybody who can become superstar,

Yeah, Probably not.

and trip to lottery next year won't get you one. Keeping assets and waiting for major trade is most logical direction team can take.

You 100% don’t know that. Also, Keeping assets for a “major trade” either means going all-in for a superstar or going for a youth rebuild for multiple assets and picks. If not, you are making lateral moves and that is a risky scenario. You would be proposing a trade of either AG or Isaac at this juncture. There isn’t much value elsewhere.

Not signing Vučević and Ross will decrease value of their youth because they will be asked to do more they are equiped to do now,

You don’t know this either. The dynamic of the team and offseason could completely change how Orlando plays. Losing production doesn’t always cut clean like that. Having them take on more doesn’t make them less.

also youth loses valuse with more exposure, as they come closer to end of rookie scale contract .

This is true but it’s going to happen anyway as long as they are on the Magic. Inevitable.

Gordon in 6th, Isaac and Fultz in 3rd, Bamba in second season are no longer that green and appealing as rookies are.

Right. However, that means we have to commit to them now because they weren’t traded. Don’t really know what else they were supposed to do other than take roster construction into account and build something balanced. Sour grapes at this point.

[j-ragg]

I do kinda worry about Vuc’s 3 point shooting. Seemed like he started the year off really hot (like everyone on the team does for some reason). Shot 35% in 2019. Not bad. 25% the last couple of months. If we re-sign him I hope he keeps improving it.

[Skin]

Because Bamba shot 30% from 3pt range + he can't create for other's from the nail and beyond like Vucevic can.

Vucevic only began to shoot 3's last season, but he has always been a good perimeter shooter. It was a natural evolution of his game as the NBA began to demand bigs do that.

But Bamba's upside is high... plus on the other side of the ball he has more natural defensive potential to unharness. Also, increasing the speed of the game cannot be overlooked as a benefit to Gordon and Isaac.

Upside is not reality...Bamba couldn't even outplay Birch as rookie, so its a massive presumption to assume he'll be same or better than Vucevic. He could just as easily end up like Biyombo (7th pick), Thabeet (2nd pick) or endless list of raw but "high upside" bigs with physical gifts that just never figured it out in NBA or just became role players. I have high hopes for him, but "upside" doesn't mean anything...real production does...and he hasn't done that at all.

How do you explain the growth that De'Aaron Fox made this year?



I'm not just pulling one case out of the blue... it's just that he's being discussed in the GM Philosophy thread and I couldn't help but think he's a prime example of a player realizing his upside. If that's not reality then how do you describe his growth? Luck?

[pepe1991]

But Bamba's upside is high... plus on the other side of the ball he has more natural defensive potential to unharness. Also, increasing the speed of the game cannot be overlooked as a benefit to Gordon and Isaac.

Upside is not reality...Bamba couldn't even outplay Birch as rookie, so its a massive presumption to assume he'll be same or better than Vucevic. He could just as easily end up like Biyombo (7th pick), Thabeet (2nd pick) or endless list of raw but "high upside" bigs with physical gifts that just never figured it out in NBA or just became role players. I have high hopes for him, but "upside" doesn't mean anything...real production does...and he hasn't done that at all.

How do you explain the growth that De'Aaron Fox made this year?



I'm not just pulling one case out of the blue... it's just that he's being discussed in the GM Philosophy thread and I couldn't help but think he's a prime example of a player realizing his upside. If that's not reality then how do you describe his growth? Luck?

There is no pattern in upside. It's hard to base expetations of player A based on succss or failure of player B. Especially when they don't even play same position.
Lonzo , drafted same year as Fox, allegedly guy with more upside, showed virtually zero improvments from rookie year.
Frank Ntilikina , another PG lottery pick , somehow got worst.
Fultz , another PG from same draft, is yet to play serious basketball.

[ezzzp]

But Bamba's upside is high... plus on the other side of the ball he has more natural defensive potential to unharness. Also, increasing the speed of the game cannot be overlooked as a benefit to Gordon and Isaac.

Upside is not reality...Bamba couldn't even outplay Birch as rookie, so its a massive presumption to assume he'll be same or better than Vucevic. He could just as easily end up like Biyombo (7th pick), Thabeet (2nd pick) or endless list of raw but "high upside" bigs with physical gifts that just never figured it out in NBA or just became role players. I have high hopes for him, but "upside" doesn't mean anything...real production does...and he hasn't done that at all.

How do you explain the growth that De'Aaron Fox made this year?



I'm not just pulling one case out of the blue... it's just that he's being discussed in the GM Philosophy thread and I couldn't help but think he's a prime example of a player realizing his upside. If that's not reality then how do you describe his growth? Luck?

You can't be serious...how do you explain all the high upside guys that have underwhelmed or busted in the NBA? Cherry picking one guy out of the massive list of draft disappointments is hardly a logical argument for proving that upside is automatic.

[Skin]

Upside is not reality...Bamba couldn't even outplay Birch as rookie, so its a massive presumption to assume he'll be same or better than Vucevic. He could just as easily end up like Biyombo (7th pick), Thabeet (2nd pick) or endless list of raw but "high upside" bigs with physical gifts that just never figured it out in NBA or just became role players. I have high hopes for him, but "upside" doesn't mean anything...real production does...and he hasn't done that at all.

How do you explain the growth that De'Aaron Fox made this year?



I'm not just pulling one case out of the blue... it's just that he's being discussed in the GM Philosophy thread and I couldn't help but think he's a prime example of a player realizing his upside. If that's not reality then how do you describe his growth? Luck?

You can't be serious...how do you explain all the high upside guys that have underwhelmed or busted in the NBA? Cherry picking one guy out of the massive list of draft disappointments is hardly a logical argument for proving that upside is automatic.

It's not automatic. That's not what I'm trying to prove. I'm proving that upside does exist while you said it was not reality. You can't pull a guy off the street and make him an NBA player. There have to be certain qualities about the person that give him a chance to succeed. Whether he does or not has varying reasons and factors. No one is saying upside = success. It's not automatic, but players who have it, are blessed with the chance to achieve success.

Just hearing you talk, you're arguing against thoughts that aren't even there. Just because someone doesn't want Vuc back doesn't mean that they want Bamba to start right away. Doesn't mean they expect Bamba to replace everything that Vuc did or meant to the team from Day 1. Bamba is a young developing player and who needs to find his way into becoming a successful player. Why don't we have the time to allow him to grow into that? We're not chasing championships. What if he does make a big jump in progression? Just because he hasn't done it yet, doesn't mean he'll never there.

Do you feel like this Magic team has upside to do more than get eliminated in Round 1?

[ezzzp]

Who are Vucevic's potential suiters?

From what I can see only Sacramento, LA Clippers, LA Lakers, New Orleans and Dallas.

• Teams that do not need a starting center as they already have them under guaranteed contract:

Atlanta: Alex Len 4.2m / M Plumlee 12.5m /D Dedmon UFA
Charlotte: C Zeller 14.5m / B Biyombo 17.0m / F Kaminsky RFA
Chicago: W Carter Jr 5.2m / C Felicio 8.2m / O Asik 3.0m SP / R Lopez UFA
Cleveland: A Zizic 2.3m / J Henson 10.5m / T Thompson18.5m / L Nance 12.7m
Denver: N Jokic 26.5m / M Plumlee 14.0m
Detroit: A Drummond 27.1m / T Maker 3.6m / J Leuer 9.6m / Z Pachulia UFA
Indiana: M Turner 18.0m / D Sabonis 3.5m / K O’Quinn UFA
Minnesota: K Towns 27.5m / G Dieng 16.3m
Portland: J Nurkic 12.0m / M Leonard 11.3m / Z Collins 4.2m / E Kanter UFA
San Antonio: L Aldridge 26.0m / J Poeltl 3.8m
Brooklyn: J Allen 2.8m / E Davis UFA
Houston: C Capella 16.4m / N Hilario 3.8m PO / K Faried UFA
New York: M Robinson 1.6m / J Noah 6.4m SP/ D Jordan UFA / L Kornet RFA
Oklahoma City: S Adams 25.8m / N Noel 2.0m PO
Philadelphia: J Embiid 27.5m / J Bolden 1.7m / B Marjanovic UFA
Phoenix: D Ayton 9.6m / R Holmes UFA
Utah: R Gobert 24.8m / D Favors 16.9m TO / E Udoh UFA / T Bradley 2.0m


• Teams that don't need a starting center but their center has a player option:

Boston: A Horford 30.1m PO / A Baynes 5.5m PO / R Williams 1.9m
Memphis: J Valenciunas 17.6m PO / J Jackson Jr 6.9m / I Rabb 1.6m / J Noah UFA
Miami: H Whiteside 27.1m PO / B Adebayo 3.5m / K Olynyk 13.1m
Toronto: M Gasol 25.6m PO / S Ibaka 23.3m / C Boucher 1.6m

I don't see any of those C's opting out of guaranteed money. Its being reported that Horford will renegotiate and extend with Boston. Gasol is a longshot if Raptors break up team, but even if he does Toronto already has Ibaka who was starter before trade and will be if he leaves. No way that Whiteside or Valenciunas opt out of those deals. Adebayo has been starting for Miami, so even in the crazy scenario that Hassan opts out, they're covered. Same with Memphis as JJJr is already physically ready and producing.


• Teams that don't need a starting center but that player is a Restricted Free Agent:

Dallas: K Porzingis RFA / D Powell 10.6m PO
Sacramento: W Cauley-Stein RFA / H Giles 2.6m / K Koufos UFA
Washington: T Bryant RFA / B Portis RFA / D Howard 5.6m / I Mahinmi 15.5m
LA Clippers: I Zubac RFA / M Harrell 6.0m

Dallas will extend Porzingis or make him a RFA whom they'll match any offer. If he picks up his QO then he's their C next year anyhow. Maybe he wants to play PF and Dallas will try to find a center to start next to him.

I find it hard to see Sacramento let WCS go in RFA to chase Vucevic after he played so well for them. Vucevic does create spacing for Fox/Bagley to operate in, so maybe they feel that's more important for the full development of their two best young prospects than retaining a rim runner/defense big like WCS.

Washington might have to go deep in luxury tax to keep Bryant. Same thing with Portis. They already have Howard and Mahinmi owed guaranteed $ so even if they let him go - they aren't adding a C. If anything they'll be looking to dump salary to keep Bryant and Portis.

Clippers' offseason priorities are to acquire two max level free agents. They like Zubac a lot and can sign him over the salary cap (if) after they acquire those free agents. Seems unlikely that they pursue a C with their max cap space, with Zubac and Harrell in tow. If they strike out in FA, maybe they go after Vucevic.

• Teams whose starting center is an unrestricted free agent and have no replacement under contract

Milwaukee: B Lopez UFA / P Gasol UFA
New Orleans: A Davis 27.1m X / J Randle RFA / J Okafor TO / C Diallo RFA / C Wood RFA
Golden State: D Cousins UFA / K Looney UFA / A Bogut UFA / J Bell RFA
LA Lakers: J McGee UFA / T Chandler UFA / M Wagner 2.6m

Bucks will retain Lopez, no way they mess with that chemistry plus they won't have cap room.

GSW will have no cap space even if Durant leaves as they'll have to pay Klay Thompson. They'll use bird rights to resign their own fa or get guys in minimum deals.

New Orleans is hard to tell until the Anthony Davis deal is complete. They might get back a starting C; or they might dismantle the team (in which case doubtful they'd be in market for Vucevic; or they might try to stay competitive with Jrue/Randle and want a true C.

Lakers have need, but now that Frank Vogel is head coach I find it hard to believe Vucevic risks playing for him through his prime. But you never know with LeBron doing the asking and Vucevic's USC ties.

[ezzzp]

It's not automatic. That's not what I'm trying to prove. I'm proving that upside does exist while you said it was not reality. You can't pull a guy off the street and make him an NBA player. There have to be certain qualities about the person that give him a chance to succeed. Whether he does or not has varying reasons and factors. No one is saying upside = success. It's not automatic, but players who have it, are blessed with the chance to achieve success.

Just hearing you talk, you're arguing against thoughts that aren't even there. Just because someone doesn't want Vuc back doesn't mean that they want Bamba to start right away. Doesn't mean they expect Bamba to replace everything that Vuc did or meant to the team from Day 1. Bamba is a young developing player and who needs to find his way into becoming a successful player. Why don't we have the time to allow him to grow into that? We're not chasing championships. What if he does make a big jump in progression? Just because he hasn't done it yet, doesn't mean he'll never there.

Do you feel like this Magic team has upside to do more than get eliminated in Round 1?

Of course it exists...but its not automatic. That's what I'm saying. Not only is not automatic, but its actually rare.

Nothing we saw from Bamba last year pointed to him being something "special" enough to throw away assets for.

You are stipulating letting a 28 year old All Star C walk in FA because a very raw player "has upside." No way am I ever going to agree with that because I don't believe in tanking or that gifting minutes is a good developmental in the long run.

Yes I do feel this Magic team has upside to go further. Internal development of Isaac, Fultz, Gordon and Bamba + stable vet production + competitive context will maximize production and trade values to grow internally and through trade...plus all that will improve the reputation of organization to be able to maximize any cap space/exceptions to add to the mix.

If you don't feel that anyone on roster can get better to improve roster past 1st round, why in the world are you arguing for "upside" of Bamba ...because you want to tank? You can say it won't be tanking, just losing a lot while trying...but everyone not in denial knows what it will be.

[yoyojw17]

How do you explain the growth that De'Aaron Fox made this year?



I'm not just pulling one case out of the blue... it's just that he's being discussed in the GM Philosophy thread and I couldn't help but think he's a prime example of a player realizing his upside. If that's not reality then how do you describe his growth? Luck?

You can't be serious...how do you explain all the high upside guys that have underwhelmed or busted in the NBA? Cherry picking one guy out of the massive list of draft disappointments is hardly a logical argument for proving that upside is automatic.

It's not automatic. That's not what I'm trying to prove. I'm proving that upside does exist while you said it was not reality. You can't pull a guy off the street and make him an NBA player. There have to be certain qualities about the person that give him a chance to succeed. Whether he does or not has varying reasons and factors. No one is saying upside = success. It's not automatic, but players who have it, are blessed with the chance to achieve success.

Just hearing you talk, you're arguing against thoughts that aren't even there. Just because someone doesn't want Vuc back doesn't mean that they want Bamba to start right away. Doesn't mean they expect Bamba to replace everything that Vuc did or meant to the team from Day 1. Bamba is a young developing player and who needs to find his way into becoming a successful player. Why don't we have the time to allow him to grow into that? We're not chasing championships. What if he does make a big jump in progression? Just because he hasn't done it yet, doesn't mean he'll never there.

Do you feel like this Magic team has upside to do more than get eliminated in Round 1?

Dearon fox came in with physical attributes that were already blessed for the pg position. Maybe a little thin... but the PG position is not truly based on physicality. So fox was improving on his aspects of the game.... after spending his rookie season with ample opportunity to work with his mistake and do better.

Bamba is not only getting accustomed to the nba... but was drafted with the knowledge that was not physically ready to manage the physicality of the nba. So I still don't get why people nitpick so much. You can have all the skill and desire in the world... but if you're built like a toothpick... you're going to be bouncing off of bigs... not the other way around. Look at giannis... people can't say that adding 50 lb of muscle has not changed the projection of his future. haha. Even our Khem birch made huge strides once his body filled out. shoot.... khem was nearly as bad a mo when he came in. Now he's filled out nicely.... well... the upper body at least. And till that happens... Vuc should help guide the ship.

[VFX]

If you don't feel that anyone on roster can get better to improve roster past 1st round, why in the world are you arguing for "upside" of Bamba ...because you are addicted to tanking and the fools gold hope it preaches. You can say it won't be tanking, just losing a lot while trying...but everyone not in denial knows what it is.

Why is this a sticking point for you? Not resigning Vuc doesn’t equal “tanking”. You are the only person throwing that word around. What we do know is that first round exits and barely sneaking into the playoffs gets a lower pick. That being said, Clifford and co. will try to win as many games as possible (as they should) , Vucevic or not. Would it still be considered “tanking” to you if Vuc left for greener pastures despite Orlando matching an offer? No, It doesn’t. They’ll have a number and have already said they won’t be overpaying for whatever it’s worth.

Players will get better, but they aren’t going to unlock different aspects of their games out of thin air simply because they are winning more. Bamba and Isaac simply need playing time and more exposure to professional basketball in all its facets. Oladipo went from Orlando playing “ok” to a winning situation in OKC, while playing terribly, only to go to a different situation and thrive. It’s completely situational. You continue to throw out blanket statements that don’t necessarily apply to everything and everyone.