Discussing Other Teams' Moves - Part 7

[nate33]

Spoiler:

I take satisfaction in knowing that Bron is marred in a dysfunctional franchise, unable to create another Super Team

im hoping this summer marks the end of super teams. I want kawai to stay in Canada KD and Kyrie can team up in NY if they want. Thats not a super team just 2 players. as for AD he can get stuck in NO or go to Boston. That will make the league alot more balanced and interesting to syart the season next year.

kemba and cousins team up somewhere. Clippers? Jimmy Butler to the Lakers. am i leaving anyone out?

As long as Durant leaves Golden State, I think balance will be restored. It's darn near impossible to build a superteam with three stars via free agency. Usually, you only get two. It took a series of flukes for it to happen in Golden State.

What's interesting to me is the Philly situation. I think they'll keep Harris but I don't think they'll keep Butler, and Redick may be unaffordable as well. With fewer stars to shoulder the burden, the lack of chemistry between Simmons and Embiid will become an even bigger issue. I think there will soon be a lot of pressure to trade Simmons. And with Redick and Butler gone, a Simmons for Beal trade will make a ton of sense.

[tontoz]

I think they should really get rid of max contracts altogether. Keep the salary cap the same but put no limits on what a great player can make. That would really put an end to the superteams and would put a premium on smart management.

[doclinkin]

KD and Kyrie can team up in NY if they want. Thats not a super team just 2 players.

Um. KD, Kyrie. and a top 5 draft pick. Tell me KD + Kyrie + Zion would not be a nightmare scenario in the East.

New York fans would be insufferable.
And I should know I was one for 10 years.

[ozthegap]

KD and Kyrie can team up in NY if they want. Thats not a super team just 2 players.

Um. KD, Kyrie. and a top 5 draft pick. Tell me KD + Kyrie + Zion would not be a nightmare scenario in the East.

New York fans would be insufferable.
And I should know I was one for 10 years.

NY is unlucky no one who goes there will win.

[Dat2U]

KD and Kyrie can team up in NY if they want. Thats not a super team just 2 players.

Um. KD, Kyrie. and a top 5 draft pick. Tell me KD + Kyrie + Zion would not be a nightmare scenario in the East.

New York fans would be insufferable.
And I should know I was one for 10 years.

NY is unlucky no one who goes there will win.

KD to NY is done. I believe I was the first to say it on here back in December. According to a source he already met with their brass. KD & Kyrie have talked about teaming up but I don't know if Kyrie is a lock as well.

If they get Zion, yikes! If they #2, I don't know if they'd take Morant --- knowing that they may have Kyrie locked up.

NY is a team I can see trading out of the draft if they don't get Zion. They'll likely want someone to contribute right away.

[ozthegap]

Um. KD, Kyrie. and a top 5 draft pick. Tell me KD + Kyrie + Zion would not be a nightmare scenario in the East.

New York fans would be insufferable.
And I should know I was one for 10 years.

NY is unlucky no one who goes there will win.

KD to NY is done. I believe I was the first to say it on here back in December. According to a source he already met with their brass. KD & Kyrie have talked about teaming up but I don't know if Kyrie is a lock as well.

If they get Zion, yikes! If they #2, I don't know if they'd take Morant --- knowing that they may have Kyrie locked up.

NY is a team I can see trading out of the draft if they don't get Zion. They'll likely want someone to contribute right away.

If that source is telling the truth, that is a major tampering fine. KD is in a playoff game on golden state's roster right now.

[Illmatic12]

Spoiler:

I take satisfaction in knowing that Bron is marred in a dysfunctional franchise, unable to create another Super Team

im hoping this summer marks the end of super teams. I want kawai to stay in Canada KD and Kyrie can team up in NY if they want. Thats not a super team just 2 players. as for AD he can get stuck in NO or go to Boston. That will make the league alot more balanced and interesting to syart the season next year.

kemba and cousins team up somewhere. Clippers? Jimmy Butler to the Lakers. am i leaving anyone out?

As long as Durant leaves Golden State, I think balance will be restored. It's darn near impossible to build a superteam with three stars via free agency. Usually, you only get two. It took a series of flukes for it to happen in Golden State.

What's interesting to me is the Philly situation. I think they'll keep Harris but I don't think they'll keep Butler, and Redick may be unaffordable as well. With fewer stars, the lack of chemistry between Simmons and Embiid will become an even bigger issue. I think there will soon be a lot of pressure to trade Simmons. And with Redick and Butler gone, a Simmons for Beal trade will make a ton of sense.

How does Simmons for Beal make sense for Washington ?
Wizards trade Beal bc they don't want to max him, then they turn around and max Simmons (who, btw is only 3 years younger than Beal)?

Now you have Simmons and Wall on huge deals and no other assets

[nate33]

Spoiler:

im hoping this summer marks the end of super teams. I want kawai to stay in Canada KD and Kyrie can team up in NY if they want. Thats not a super team just 2 players. as for AD he can get stuck in NO or go to Boston. That will make the league alot more balanced and interesting to syart the season next year.

kemba and cousins team up somewhere. Clippers? Jimmy Butler to the Lakers. am i leaving anyone out?

As long as Durant leaves Golden State, I think balance will be restored. It's darn near impossible to build a superteam with three stars via free agency. Usually, you only get two. It took a series of flukes for it to happen in Golden State.

What's interesting to me is the Philly situation. I think they'll keep Harris but I don't think they'll keep Butler, and Redick may be unaffordable as well. With fewer stars, the lack of chemistry between Simmons and Embiid will become an even bigger issue. I think there will soon be a lot of pressure to trade Simmons. And with Redick and Butler gone, a Simmons for Beal trade will make a ton of sense.

How does Simmons for Beal make sense for Washington ?
Wizards trade Beal bc they don't want to max him, then they turn around and max Simmons (who, btw is only 3 years younger than Beal)?

Now you have Simmons and Wall on huge deals and no other assets

Beal's Supermax is 35% of the cap. Simmons' 5th year max will be merely 25% of the cap. That's a difference of $11M per year. Also, there's RFA rights on Simmons so he couldn't leave even if he wanted to (there's no such certainty with Beal).

Secondly, Simmons is arguably nearly as good as Beal, and some advanced stats say he's already better. But even if you think Simmons is worse, he is still 3 years younger and has played one-third as many minutes as Beal. The potential to improve is there.

Finally, Simmons is clearly misused in Philly because he's a bad mix alongside Embiid. Simmons would probably fare much better in a role more like what Giannis does in Milwaukee.

Don't get me wrong. I'm totally fine with keeping Beal. I might be his #1 fan on this board. But a straight-up trade for Simmons is an intriguing deal as well because it fits in with a long term rebuild plan. This team isn't going to compete for a championship in the next 4 years as long as Wall's contract is an anchor, so we better plan for 4 years out. In 4 years, Simmons will be cheaper than Beal, younger than Beal, and there's a fair chance he'll be better.

I think Beal for Simmons is about the only trade out there that could conceivably give us fair value.

[Illmatic12]

Beal's Supermax is 35% of the cap. Simmons' 5th year max will be merely 25% of the cap. That's a difference of $11M per year. Also, there's RFA rights on Simmons so he couldn't leave even if he wanted to (there's no such certainty with Beal).

Secondly, Simmons is arguably nearly as good as Beal, and some advanced stats say he's already better. But even if you think Simmons is worse, he is still 3 years younger and has played one-third as many minutes as Beal. The potential to improve is there.

Finally, Simmons is clearly misused in Philly because he's a bad mix alongside Embiid. Simmons would probably fare much better in a role more like what Giannis does in Milwaukee.

Don't get me wrong. I'm totally fine with keeping Beal. I might be his #1 fan on this board. But a straight-up trade for Simmons is an intriguing deal as well because it fits in with a long term rebuild plan. This team isn't going to compete for a championship in the next 4 years as long as Wall's contract is an anchor, so we better plan for 4 years out. In 4 years, Simmons will be cheaper than Beal, younger than Beal, and there's a fair chance he'll be better.

I think Beal for Simmons is about the only trade out there that could conceivably give us fair value.

But we still have Wall, how is that backcourt mix supposed to work?
Simmons would most likely perform worse here than he does in Philly, and personally I am not that high on his potential to improve .. he still has no jumper whatsoever and shoots with the wrong hand, and keep in mind Simmons is 23yo not like he's a 19yo prospect. Imo he is what he is - which is a power forward with passing ability (ala Lamar Odom but minus the jumper)

Building a team around Simmons is more difficult than you may think - he isn't talent like Giannis where you can just pencil him in for 30/15 every game and just fill in pieces around him.

Now, if Philly badly wants Beal then I could see a situation where a 3-team trade makes sense and Simmons gets routed elsewhere. Just don't like the fit for Washington

[nate33]

But we still have Wall, how is that backcourt mix supposed to work?

Wall is done as a star player as far as I'm concerned. He might recover well enough to be a quality starter, but not a star. And he might not recover well enough to be useful at all. I'm not basing any future plans on him.

Simmons would most likely perform worse here than he does in Philly, and personally I am not that high on his potential to improve .. he still has no jumper whatsoever and shoots with the wrong hand, and keep in mind Simmons is 23yo not like he's a 19yo prospect. Imo he is what he is - which is a power forward with passing ability (ala Lamar Odom but minus the jumper)

Building a team around Simmons is more difficult than you may think - he isn't talent like Giannis where you can just pencil him in for 30/15 every game and just fill in pieces around him.

Now, if Philly badly wants Beal then I could see a situation where a 3-team trade makes sense and Simmons gets routed elsewhere. Just don't like the fit for Washington

Why would Simmons perform worse here? He performed really well last year when Embiid got hurt and he led Philly to a remarkable late season run. All it took was to give him the ball and surround him with shooters.

I think you make a fair point that Simmons might not improve. There is definitely some risk in the trade. But the fear that he might not improve is what makes the trade plausible. If everyone was convinced that Simmons would definitely develop a jumper over time, then nobody in their right mind would trade him.

[Illmatic12]

But we still have Wall, how is that backcourt mix supposed to work?

Wall is done as a star player as far as I'm concerned. He might recover well enough to be a quality starter, but not a star. And he might not recover well enough to be useful at all. I'm not basing any future plans on him.

Simmons would most likely perform worse here than he does in Philly, and personally I am not that high on his potential to improve .. he still has no jumper whatsoever and shoots with the wrong hand, and keep in mind Simmons is 23yo not like he's a 19yo prospect. Imo he is what he is - which is a power forward with passing ability (ala Lamar Odom but minus the jumper)

Building a team around Simmons is more difficult than you may think - he isn't talent like Giannis where you can just pencil him in for 30/15 every game and just fill in pieces around him.

Now, if Philly badly wants Beal then I could see a situation where a 3-team trade makes sense and Simmons gets routed elsewhere. Just don't like the fit for Washington

Why would Simmons perform worse here? He performed really well last year when Embiid got hurt and he led Philly to a remarkable late season run. All it took was to give him the ball and surround him with shooters.

I think you make a fair point that Simmons might not improve. There is definitely some risk in the trade. But the fear that he might not improve is what makes the trade plausible. If everyone was convinced that Simmons would definitely develop a jumper over time, then nobody in their right mind would trade him.

Well he'll likely perform worse here because he has less talent around him. Simmons is a set-up man but there would be no one to set up.

FYI - the Sixers "remarkable" run without Embiid last year was proven to be a red herring . Philly were playing a string of teams that were tanking , not a single opponent in that 15-game late season run had a record over .500 . This year we've seen that the Sixers are significantly worse with Simmons on the floor and Embiid off. Boston showed the league the book on how to defend Simmons , and I don't think he can have sustained success as a primary option.

And the reality is that Wall is on the books for $40million , even if he's done as a star player he will still have a role with the team. Any lineups with two ball-dominant guards who are not great shooters (one of them a complete non-shooter) will be a struggle. So Wall + Simmons combo is not going to be productive even if the other 3 players on court are shooters. I get being intrigued in Simmons talent but I just feel like we'd be creating more problems than solutions.. that's not even getting into the fact that Wall and Simmons are both Rich Paul/Klutch clients and how that could play out behind the scenes

[Illuminaire]

You don't make that trade because you expect it to make the Wizards better next year, Illmatic. And you certainly don't do it worrying about his fit with Wall.

You swap Beal for Simmons as the first move in a major rebuild, where you know you're going to be eating Wall's salary and playing for draft picks for 3-4 years. That gives you the time needed to develop Simmons into a superstar, and/or draft another one. It also gives your front office plenty of time to stock up on shooters to surround Simmons with.

It's a long-view upside trade. I agree with Nate, it's one of the few that makes sense for both teams.

[ozthegap]

Poor Cousins... it looks like hes going to have to sign another cheap contract this offseason...

[nate33]

Poor Cousins... it looks like hes going to have to sign another cheap contract this offseason...

At this point, I don't think I would ever offer him a long term deal. A huge, heavy man with two injuries below the waist? No thanks. Not to mention that his terrible defense has been exposed. Perhaps playing on a team that opposing coaches devote long hours game planning against wasn't such a great idea.

[closg00]

B*tchsmack for damn sure exercised his option for his last and very large NBA pay day of $17M, a huge over-pay in hindsight

[I_Like_Dirt]

Wall is done as a star player as far as I'm concerned. He might recover well enough to be a quality starter, but not a star. And he might not recover well enough to be useful at all. I'm not basing any future plans on him.

While I agree with not basing any future plans around him, I sort of had the opposite idea where Wall was concerned. I'm not sure he's realistically the kind of player you want as a quality starter but I think he might have some fringe star potential still, though it will be a while. I think he could still come back and fit into the Lou Williams role that Derrick Rose assumed this season, too. He's actually reasonably well-suited for that role in general. You don't want him as the mainstay of an offense because you want an offense to be the sum of a lot of parts and Wall doesn't do well if he isn't most of the offense. The bench is where teams are finding a lot of success playing the newfound Allen Iversons of the league because that tends to be where teams have less offensive talent and where the ability to dominate an offense tends to be more useful. I'm not sure how receptive Wall would be to that idea but if Rose could, I think he might be able to transition there, too, though realistically Rose only did it after finding himself on a different team with a much smaller contract.

[payitforward]

Scuttlebutt that the Sixers might fire Brett Brown if they lose in Toronto really amuses me. I think it would be the crowning touch on the series of lame-brain decisions Philly ownership has made since insisting Hinkie draft Okafor & then firing him. You could immediately stop worrying about Philly as a major competitor in the East.

I'd be trying to jump-start that Beal for Simmons deal with them 30 seconds after they're bounced from the playoffs; they might be willing to do it. Their trade for Tobias Harris was a colossal stinker. Really they might do just about anything...!

[tontoz]

I think we can say now that "the process" has been a failure. After all those years of tanking and high draft picks all they have to show for it are two guys who don't fit together: Embid (who can't stay healthy) and wants a slow paced game, Simmons ( can't shoot) who wants to run.

They have a bunch of blown draft picks and cap space but seemingly no real path to being a contender.

[Rafael122]

I think at the very least, Griffin needs to give Davis and Zion a chance until the trade deadline. The books are pretty clean next offseason.

On the flip side, if the Lakers come to Griffin with a final offer of Ball/Ingram/Kuzma/4th pick for Davis, I have no clue why they wouldn't take that deal.

PG - Ball
SG - Holiday
SF - Ingram
PF - Zion
C - ?

[nate33]

I think at the very least, Griffin needs to give Davis and Zion a chance until the trade deadline. The books are pretty clean next offseason.

On the flip side, if the Lakers come to Griffin with a final offer of Ball/Ingram/Kuzma/4th pick for Davis, I have no clue why they wouldn't take that deal.

PG - Ball
SG - Holiday
SF - Ingram
PF - Zion
C - ?

If I'm New Orleans, I'm still looking to the Celtics for the best offer. The Celtics still have that Memphis pick which didn't convey this year. It's top 6 protected next year and unprotected the year after. If they can get that pick plus one of Tatum or Brown, I think that's a better offer than the Lakers. They can probably get the Celtics to throw in more assets (Rozier, the Sacramento pick, the Clippers pick).

The Lakers are offering 3 guys, none of whom are likely to be a All Star, and frankly, may not even be average starters. And any future picks they offer are likely to be garbage because a team with Lebron and Davis won't lose much.