2018-19 Player of the Year Discussion Thread

[E-Balla]

Kawhi's individual play is being completely overrated. What happened to when (even though I still disagree with it) we had threads about how players like Deng were better than Rose?

Kawhi's defense is amazing, and so is his offense, but what's the cap to Kawhi playing like this? A +5 offense? That's not that great. There's zero doubt in my mind the Bucks wouldn't be nearly as dominant with Kawhi on the roster. Giannis (through Bud's system) empowers his teammates, Kawhi swallows his.

[inDe_eD]

Kawhi's individual play is being completely overrated. What happened to when (even though I still disagree with it) we had threads about how players like Deng were better than Rose?

Kawhi's defense is amazing, and so is his offense, but what's the cap to Kawhi playing like this? A +5 offense? That's not that great. There's zero doubt in my mind the Bucks wouldn't be nearly as dominant with Kawhi on the roster. Giannis (through Bud's system) empowers his teammates, Kawhi swallows his.

The Raptors, outside of Kawhi, are shooting 30% from 3 in the playoffs, and isn't because they aren't getting good looks. I think Giannis wouldn't have gotten this team out of the Philly series with that kind of shooting (not to mention hesitancy). A normal shooting series from this squad and suddenly the entire offense looks much better.

[E-Balla]

Kawhi's individual play is being completely overrated. What happened to when (even though I still disagree with it) we had threads about how players like Deng were better than Rose?

Kawhi's defense is amazing, and so is his offense, but what's the cap to Kawhi playing like this? A +5 offense? That's not that great. There's zero doubt in my mind the Bucks wouldn't be nearly as dominant with Kawhi on the roster. Giannis (through Bud's system) empowers his teammates, Kawhi swallows his.

The Raptors, outside of Kawhi, are shooting 30% from 3 in the playoffs, and isn't because they aren't getting good looks. I think Giannis wouldn't have gotten this team out of the Philly series with that kind of shooting (not to mention hesitancy). A normal shooting series from this squad and suddenly the entire offense looks much better.

I mean for that the Bucks have been cold compared to their normal too. Outside of Middleton they're 29% from deep and they're only 31% from deep on passes delivered by Giannis (that same number is 33% for Kawhi). They're not going to be able to have a normal shooting series with Kawhi dominating the ball like this, so yeah it makes sense that if Kawhi moved the ball and got his teammates in a rhythm the offense would be much better.

[inDe_eD]

Kawhi's individual play is being completely overrated. What happened to when (even though I still disagree with it) we had threads about how players like Deng were better than Rose?

Kawhi's defense is amazing, and so is his offense, but what's the cap to Kawhi playing like this? A +5 offense? That's not that great. There's zero doubt in my mind the Bucks wouldn't be nearly as dominant with Kawhi on the roster. Giannis (through Bud's system) empowers his teammates, Kawhi swallows his.

The Raptors, outside of Kawhi, are shooting 30% from 3 in the playoffs, and isn't because they aren't getting good looks. I think Giannis wouldn't have gotten this team out of the Philly series with that kind of shooting (not to mention hesitancy). A normal shooting series from this squad and suddenly the entire offense looks much better.

I mean for that the Bucks have been cold compared to their normal too. Outside of Middleton they're 29% from deep and they're only 31% from deep on passes delivered by Giannis (that same number is 33% for Kawhi). They're not going to be able to have a normal shooting series with Kawhi dominating the ball like this, so yeah it makes sense that if Kawhi moved the ball and got his teammates in a rhythm the offense would be much better.

The Raptors had been the hottest shooting team since the trade deadline (i.e. when they got Marc Gasol). Kawhi's usage is up 3.5% and he's taking 2.4 more shots per game, but making 2.1 more per game. He's hardly started dominating the ball. He's playing more minutes and being more efficient, that's it. His teammates are struggling, and so the rest of the offense is struggling, and that's all really apparent whether you watch the game or just check boxscores.

[Asianiac_24]

James Harden. Just the fact that people think they should beat the Warriors with a past prime CP3 shows just how high his expectations are.

[Colbinii]

James Harden. Just the fact that people think they should beat the Warriors with a past prime CP3 shows just how high his expectations are.

People need to be careful. The same people who are bashing CP3 declined are also the same people touting about how Harden cant get it done in the post-season.

[TheGOATRises007]

Kawhi's individual play is being completely overrated. What happened to when (even though I still disagree with it) we had threads about how players like Deng were better than Rose?

Kawhi's defense is amazing, and so is his offense, but what's the cap to Kawhi playing like this? A +5 offense? That's not that great. There's zero doubt in my mind the Bucks wouldn't be nearly as dominant with Kawhi on the roster. Giannis (through Bud's system) empowers his teammates, Kawhi swallows his.

Was this actually a thing?

[ShotCreator]

Kawhi's individual play is being completely overrated. What happened to when (even though I still disagree with it) we had threads about how players like Deng were better than Rose?

Kawhi's defense is amazing, and so is his offense, but what's the cap to Kawhi playing like this? A +5 offense? That's not that great. There's zero doubt in my mind the Bucks wouldn't be nearly as dominant with Kawhi on the roster. Giannis (through Bud's system) empowers his teammates, Kawhi swallows his.

The lineup splits in the RS and PS have shown the exact opposite is true.

Guys are sacrificing increments of their games to allow Giannis to fully play his.

Really all of them are empowered by Bud. He’s been the largest impact...human in the NBA this year to me and it’s not close. They’re all peaking at this stretch of their careers and it’s no coincidence. Even George Hill looks good again.


This guy had Korver playing at a top 10 level in Atlanta.

[E-Balla]

Kawhi's individual play is being completely overrated. What happened to when (even though I still disagree with it) we had threads about how players like Deng were better than Rose?

Kawhi's defense is amazing, and so is his offense, but what's the cap to Kawhi playing like this? A +5 offense? That's not that great. There's zero doubt in my mind the Bucks wouldn't be nearly as dominant with Kawhi on the roster. Giannis (through Bud's system) empowers his teammates, Kawhi swallows his.

The lineup splits in the RS and PS have shown the exact opposite is true.

Guys are sacrificing increments of their games to allow Giannis to fully play his.

Really all of them are empowered by Bud. He’s been the largest impact...human in the NBA this year to me and it’s not close. They’re all peaking at this stretch of their careers and it’s no coincidence. Even George Hill looks good again.


This guy had Korver playing at a top 10 level in Atlanta.

How have the lineup splits shown anything else? The best offensive lineups in Milwaukee almost all include Giannis. The same can't be said about Kawhi.

[inDe_eD]

Kawhi's individual play is being completely overrated. What happened to when (even though I still disagree with it) we had threads about how players like Deng were better than Rose?

Kawhi's defense is amazing, and so is his offense, but what's the cap to Kawhi playing like this? A +5 offense? That's not that great. There's zero doubt in my mind the Bucks wouldn't be nearly as dominant with Kawhi on the roster. Giannis (through Bud's system) empowers his teammates, Kawhi swallows his.

The lineup splits in the RS and PS have shown the exact opposite is true.

Guys are sacrificing increments of their games to allow Giannis to fully play his.

Really all of them are empowered by Bud. He’s been the largest impact...human in the NBA this year to me and it’s not close. They’re all peaking at this stretch of their careers and it’s no coincidence. Even George Hill looks good again.


This guy had Korver playing at a top 10 level in Atlanta.

How have the lineup splits shown anything else? The best offensive lineups in Milwaukee almost all include Giannis. The same can't be said about Kawhi.

This isn't true in the Postseason. The Bucks don't skip a beat without Giannis, the Raptors fall of like 40 points without Kawhi.

[trex_8063]

Kawhi's individual play is being completely overrated. What happened to when (even though I still disagree with it) we had threads about how players like Deng were better than Rose?

Kawhi's defense is amazing, and so is his offense, but what's the cap to Kawhi playing like this? A +5 offense? That's not that great. There's zero doubt in my mind the Bucks wouldn't be nearly as dominant with Kawhi on the roster. Giannis (through Bud's system) empowers his teammates, Kawhi swallows his.

The lineup splits in the RS and PS have shown the exact opposite is true.

Guys are sacrificing increments of their games to allow Giannis to fully play his.

Really all of them are empowered by Bud. He’s been the largest impact...human in the NBA this year to me and it’s not close. They’re all peaking at this stretch of their careers and it’s no coincidence. Even George Hill looks good again.


This guy had Korver playing at a top 10 level in Atlanta.

How have the lineup splits shown anything else? The best offensive lineups in Milwaukee almost all include Giannis. The same can't be said about Kawhi.

Possibly a stupid question, but where can I find this info? Or do you go and create the line-up permutations yourself on NBAWOWY (a site which was not functioning for me the last time I visited)?

The line-up splits data on bbref just lists the avg pt-differential, but doesn't isolate on offensive performance.


As far as the on/off data, Kawhi's offensive on/off in the rs isn't noteworthy among the other consistent starters (Kawhi/Lowry/Green/Siakam): his offensive on/off is actually 4th of those four in the rs, and his on-court team ORtg is 3rd of the 4 (even that 3rd-place is a still fairly elite +7.2 rORTG, fwiw). If we include Marc Gasol in this mix, Kawhi is 4th of 5 in both on/off and on-court ORtg.

However, in the ps, it's worth noting that [note: sample size is admittedly a big issue] he's comfortably 1st on the whole team in offensive on/off, and his on-court team ORtg is 2nd to only Danny Green's (at a pretty nice +5.4 rORTG).
Supporting cast is definitely underperforming in the playoffs, and I don't think that's on Kawhi; that's on them. He's keeping them afloat.
That said, I generally agree there's a definite ceiling to offensive performance with his iso-heavy (with limited assisting) style of play. I'm not a fan of that style, which I find similar to Carmelo Anthony (only better); or Adrian Dantley, if we want a more old-school example.

[Bergmaniac]

The lineup splits in the RS and PS have shown the exact opposite is true.

Guys are sacrificing increments of their games to allow Giannis to fully play his.

Really all of them are empowered by Bud. He’s been the largest impact...human in the NBA this year to me and it’s not close. They’re all peaking at this stretch of their careers and it’s no coincidence. Even George Hill looks good again.


This guy had Korver playing at a top 10 level in Atlanta.

How have the lineup splits shown anything else? The best offensive lineups in Milwaukee almost all include Giannis. The same can't be said about Kawhi.

Possibly a stupid question, but where can I find this info? Or do you go and create the line-up permutations yourself on NBAWOWY (a site which was not functioning for me the last time I visited)?

https://stats.nba.com/team/1610612749/lineups-advanced/?sort=OFF_RATING&dir=1&Season=2018-19&SeasonType=Regular%20Season

[E-Balla]

The lineup splits in the RS and PS have shown the exact opposite is true.

Guys are sacrificing increments of their games to allow Giannis to fully play his.

Really all of them are empowered by Bud. He’s been the largest impact...human in the NBA this year to me and it’s not close. They’re all peaking at this stretch of their careers and it’s no coincidence. Even George Hill looks good again.


This guy had Korver playing at a top 10 level in Atlanta.

How have the lineup splits shown anything else? The best offensive lineups in Milwaukee almost all include Giannis. The same can't be said about Kawhi.

This isn't true in the Postseason. The Bucks don't skip a beat without Giannis, the Raptors fall of like 40 points without Kawhi.

We're comparing competitive series to completely uncompetitive series. We're comparing a trend only seen in the playoffs during 9 uncompetitive games to one some posters (ie - me) have been talking about for 3 years and have seen in the playoffs and regular season.

[E-Balla]

The lineup splits in the RS and PS have shown the exact opposite is true.

Guys are sacrificing increments of their games to allow Giannis to fully play his.

Really all of them are empowered by Bud. He’s been the largest impact...human in the NBA this year to me and it’s not close. They’re all peaking at this stretch of their careers and it’s no coincidence. Even George Hill looks good again.


This guy had Korver playing at a top 10 level in Atlanta.

How have the lineup splits shown anything else? The best offensive lineups in Milwaukee almost all include Giannis. The same can't be said about Kawhi.

Possibly a stupid question, but where can I find this info? Or do you go and create the line-up permutations yourself on NBAWOWY (a site which was not functioning for me the last time I visited)?

The line-up splits data on bbref just lists the avg pt-differential, but doesn't isolate on offensive performance.

NBA.com. terrible to navigate but easily the best database of stats. They make SAP look bad though.

As far as the on/off data, Kawhi's offensive on/off in the rs isn't noteworthy among the other consistent starters (Kawhi/Lowry/Green/Siakam): his offensive on/off is actually 4th of those four in the rs, and his on-court team ORtg is 3rd of the 4 (even that 3rd-place is a still fairly elite +7.2 rORTG, fwiw). If we include Marc Gasol in this mix, Kawhi is 4th of 5 in both on/off and on-court ORtg.

However, in the ps, it's worth noting that [note: sample size is admittedly a big issue] he's comfortably 1st on the whole team in offensive on/off, and his on-court team ORtg is 2nd to only Danny Green's (at a pretty nice +5.4 rORTG).
Supporting cast is definitely underperforming in the playoffs, and I don't think that's on Kawhi; that's on them. He's keeping them afloat.
That said, I generally agree there's a definite ceiling to offensive performance with his iso-heavy (with limited assisting) style of play. I'm not a fan of that style, which I find similar to Carmelo Anthony (only better); or Adrian Dantley, if we want a more old-school example.

Yeah usually the iso approach isn't too terrible. Its terrible in the case of Kawhi because he's doing it and bypassing the offensive system to do it. At least Melo wasn't calling off plays to iso.

And 2 things can be true at once. Danny Green is one of the streakiest shooters in the league, and Kyle Lowry is terrible in the playoffs, Kawhi can still be holding back the offense though, especially considering how amazing his individual performance is.

Also off court samples aren't really meaningful in the playoffs. Its rare they're relevant.

[inDe_eD]

How have the lineup splits shown anything else? The best offensive lineups in Milwaukee almost all include Giannis. The same can't be said about Kawhi.

This isn't true in the Postseason. The Bucks don't skip a beat without Giannis, the Raptors fall of like 40 points without Kawhi.

We're comparing competitive series to completely uncompetitive series. We're comparing a trend only seen in the playoffs during 9 uncompetitive games to one some posters (ie - me) have been talking about for 3 years and have seen in the playoffs and regular season.

I'll be fair here, I hate using the combo of on and off (especially off), and i've been a vocal critic for a while now, so i wont be disingenuous and build an argument around that now.

But to your point, if Giannis' series to this point have been uncompetitive, why are we talking about how much better he makes the offense to begin with? That seems like a hasty conclusion to draw. That's been my lone criticism of Giannis so far, I haven't seen this iteration of the Bucks really tested yet.

If this series ends up being similiar to the Philly/Toronto one (low scoring, slower pace), and the Raptors win, does that change your stance on either player?

[inDe_eD]

Related to the point we were just discussing:

[Prez]

This isn't true in the Postseason. The Bucks don't skip a beat without Giannis, the Raptors fall of like 40 points without Kawhi.

We're comparing competitive series to completely uncompetitive series. We're comparing a trend only seen in the playoffs during 9 uncompetitive games to one some posters (ie - me) have been talking about for 3 years and have seen in the playoffs and regular season.

I'll be fair here, I hate using the combo of on and off (especially off), and i've been a vocal critic for a while now, so i wont be disingenuous and build an argument around that now.

But to your point, if Giannis' series to this point have been uncompetitive, why are we talking about how much better he makes the offense to begin with? That seems like a hasty conclusion to draw. That's been my lone criticism of Giannis so far, I haven't seen this iteration of the Bucks really tested yet.

If this series ends up being similiar to the Philly/Toronto one (low scoring, slower pace), and the Raptors win, does that change your stance on either player?

The Celtics stylistically were one of the worst matchups for the Bucks, Horford is one of the best Giannis defenders in the league, and both the Bucks & Giannis got their asses handed to them in game 1. They responded by sweeping the rest of the series and Giannis was outstanding.

It just feels like the criticism is somewhat penalizing Giannis and the Bucks for responding *too* well to getting tested.

[inDe_eD]

We're comparing competitive series to completely uncompetitive series. We're comparing a trend only seen in the playoffs during 9 uncompetitive games to one some posters (ie - me) have been talking about for 3 years and have seen in the playoffs and regular season.

I'll be fair here, I hate using the combo of on and off (especially off), and i've been a vocal critic for a while now, so i wont be disingenuous and build an argument around that now.

But to your point, if Giannis' series to this point have been uncompetitive, why are we talking about how much better he makes the offense to begin with? That seems like a hasty conclusion to draw. That's been my lone criticism of Giannis so far, I haven't seen this iteration of the Bucks really tested yet.

If this series ends up being similiar to the Philly/Toronto one (low scoring, slower pace), and the Raptors win, does that change your stance on either player?

The Celtics stylistically were one of the worst matchups for the Bucks, Horford is one of the best Giannis defenders in the league, and both the Bucks & Giannis got their asses handed to them in game 1. They responded by sweeping the rest of the series and Giannis was outstanding.

It just feels like the criticism is somewhat penalizing Giannis and the Bucks for responding *too* well to getting tested.

I get it, and my stance is a hard one to take without coming off as being critical of the Bucks. I know they can only play whoever is front of them, and they took care of business. However, I did a lot of Celtics hate watching this year, and they did the same thing they did all regular season, where they just stopped being a real basketball team for long long stretches. So it still, to me, said more about the Celtics than it did the Bucks.

[E-Balla]

This isn't true in the Postseason. The Bucks don't skip a beat without Giannis, the Raptors fall of like 40 points without Kawhi.

We're comparing competitive series to completely uncompetitive series. We're comparing a trend only seen in the playoffs during 9 uncompetitive games to one some posters (ie - me) have been talking about for 3 years and have seen in the playoffs and regular season.

I'll be fair here, I hate using the combo of on and off (especially off), and i've been a vocal critic for a while now, so i wont be disingenuous and build an argument around that now.

But to your point, if Giannis' series to this point have been uncompetitive, why are we talking about how much better he makes the offense to begin with? That seems like a hasty conclusion to draw. That's been my lone criticism of Giannis so far, I haven't seen this iteration of the Bucks really tested yet.

If this series ends up being similiar to the Philly/Toronto one (low scoring, slower pace), and the Raptors win, does that change your stance on either player?

I don't think 82 games is a small sample or that making assumptions based on 82 games is hasty.

If the series is low scoring and low paced it'll all depend on how they play. Context is literally everything, nothing happens in a vacuum, none of my observations are made in a vacuum.

[eminence]

A quick clubhouse leaders list I've thrown together:

1. Harden
2. Jokic
3. Embiid
4. George
5. Gobert

Obviously some will be knocked out by those still in it. Dame would be above some of these guys but doubt he'll actually finish top 5. Who knows how the Curry/KD/Dray crew plays out, if they don't take the title I could see none of them making it, if they do it could be all 3, lol (KD health and return date the biggest swing). Kawhi needs to have a great Bucks series to make my list. Giannis is a lock to make the list, maybe even the current favorite for #1, job isn't done though.