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2019 NBA Combine -> Time to dig in!

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Re: 2019 NBA Combine -> Time to dig in! 

Post#81 » by pepe1991 » Fri May 17, 2019 9:45 pm

Skin wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:
Skin wrote:Show us the list of times you've been right about a prospect and he ended up being good? You're not known for anyone other than passionately defending Hezonja.


I gave up on Hezonja after year and half. Literally. I'll post proof of it when i get home. Lol
I think playing time Hez got during tanking years was laughable but i was not blind to see his inability to impact game.

I don't need proof. The one guy you're known for supporting hard busted. It is what it is.

You love criticizing players and other posters who like them, but don't really have credibility to stand on your own.


:rofl:

This is my first post ever here ,and it was Harris and Sikes ( and Hezonja related)

by pepe1991 » Tue Jan 26, 2016 10:28 pm

First post ever here- Payton and Gordon are NOT rookies. Hezonja is, and he is getting Harris in Bucks type of treatmant. Dude was buried behind Moute and Marquis Daniels ( yea,who? He even started that guy for some reason ).

Harris played 11,6mpg under him :banghead:
Henson 13 mpg :crazy:
Sanders 14,5mpg :nod:

For example he played Dalambert and Ayon more than Henson ?! :crazy:

ANd above all A LOT of players said that they never knew what Skiles really wanted from them when they played for him.
Stephen Jackson said that Skiles is not for NBA ,that he is college coach.
Beno Udrih said that Skiles never wanted to talk about him and his role on a team.
Reports from Bucks said that he told his close friends that he hated team ( at times when he was coach ).


And just like that, my first post ever was basically foreshadowing for what will happen during SKiles season. Harris traded, vets played, he hated a team and quit.

But let's go on.
My post on Vučević at May 6th 2017

Vučević did add some new moves but in general he never made another leap in his development. He just swiched post offense for less effective ( but easier for his body ) mid range jumpers. He did improve at defending around rim but he still can't defend pick&roll. He only had 16 dunks this season, compare that to 29 last year or 56 year before. It's clear that he is fading further and further from rim, but still can't shoot 3s and that leaves him in no man's land of long 2s, worst shots you can take.
On offense he is worst version of Lamarcus Aldrige at this point.

So much of my bias toward somebody or lack of critics because,reasons .

And now your lies and myth busting

#38 » by pepe1991 » Sat May 20, 2017 2:56 am

Meh, too much picks, not enough time to give all of them fair chance. Magic for 2 years couldn't even find enough time for 5th overall pick ( not that he deserved it ) .


more of me being "blind supporter " -- "Mario can't dribble for 20 sec, he would turn ball over with first dribble :lol: " June 14, 2017


But let's go through some of your crap

kin wrote:
Elfrid Payton = Tony Parker

Stregths in ball handling, passing and close range scoring efficiency. Payton is a better defender and Parker is a better shooter, but they both share the most important characteristics needed for the position.


Skin wrote:
Aaron Gordon = Kawhi Leonard

Long, explosive wings who came into the league bringing defense, but needing to improve or prove they could be reliable shooters. Possess strong athletic frames that can be asked to guard opposing team's top wing scorer. I think Henny was hoping Harkless would fill this role, but that hasn't panned out.


Skin wrote:
And we're almost there!

Since Henny got here, he's been talking about sustainability, step by step and growing this organically. The Spurs have been the model for that philosophy and being a former Spurs guy, it's not hard to see why we would try to replicate their succ


Oh, this is such a joy to read. Preach mr skin, tell us more about your nostradamus- like visions of Magic Spurs, Hennigan era sustainability since you are credible one .

But just in case you think i would lie, there is link of this epic embarrassment if you wanna relive the moment agian and again, and again....
viewtopic.php?f=25&t=1370554&p=42589821&hilit=nicholson+exum#p42589821
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Re: 2019 NBA Combine -> Time to dig in! 

Post#82 » by tiderulz » Fri May 17, 2019 9:54 pm

so Herro with a 6'3 wing span. T-Rex arms indeed.

and Bol Bol weighing 208 lbs.
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Re: 2019 NBA Combine -> Time to dig in! 

Post#83 » by SOUL » Fri May 17, 2019 9:57 pm

tiderulz wrote:that describes a lot of young players. we have a starting SF that didnt even average 10 ppg this year. Jackson who only started 29 games put up 11/4 and same 3 pt % as Isaac. and yet Isaac is seen as a "core" player.


This is... a bad take. Points don't mean crap looking at it in a bubble like that (i.e. comparing raw stats from two different players in two different situations, one from a team that had nothing to play for the entire year, versus a guy entrenched in a 4th-5th option offensive role). Yes, Isaac is a WIP on offense, but he played within those restraints which helped the team. Jackson's offense was a huge negative out there. Even though Jackson got benched, him and Isaac roughly had the same amount of minutes played for the year, and Jackson had an 8% higher usage rate (23.9 vs 16.3) to score a whopping two more points a game.

Jackson had an ORTG of 91 (!!) which is terrible, compared to Isaac's 107.

Jackson had a DRTG of 114 (!!) compared to Isaac's 106.

Jackson had negative 2.8 win shares on offense compared to Isaac's 0.9, and even on defense where Jackson had a decent impact (1.1 winshares), Isaac's was 2 points higher with 3.1.

His true shooting is also better, as well as a load of other things that measure offensive impact. So yeah, Jackson can have all that 11/4 and same 3 pt%, but it's hollow.

Isaac had 4.0 win shares for the team, which is pretty damn good for a 21 year old in his first official full season, good for 5th on the team behind Vuc and Ross who had great years, AG who had a more efficient year, and DJ who had a surprisingly effective year.

That's why he is seen as a "core" player and Jackson would not be.
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Re: 2019 NBA Combine -> Time to dig in! 

Post#84 » by SOUL » Fri May 17, 2019 10:00 pm

This is a bit of a conundrum cause pepe isn't high on Isaac :lol: , but I think we both agree that Jackson is pretty useless out there as a prospect. Can his career be turned around? Sure. He has the talent for it.. he needs to figure out his place in the league though because what he's doing right now clearly isn't working. If he can embrace his role as an energy/utility guy that plays within himself, he might be worth taking a flyer on, but I'm not sure I would give even any "bad" assets for him unless he was an expiring and plays himself into an okay 2 year contract or something.
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Re: 2019 NBA Combine -> Time to dig in! 

Post#85 » by pepe1991 » Fri May 17, 2019 10:06 pm

Only Josh Jackson would take Josh Jackson over Isaac.

Even his mother would pass.

You also have to take that $7M salary for 2019-20 and $9M salary for 2020-21 with him.
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Re: 2019 NBA Combine -> Time to dig in! 

Post#86 » by pepe1991 » Fri May 17, 2019 10:16 pm

as for wingspan , lot of good players don't have impressive wingspan.
irving, both Curry bros, JJ Redick ,Love, Ray Allen, Monta, Iverson.... I think Randle also has T Rex arms, yet rebounds like MFer
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Re: 2019 NBA Combine -> Time to dig in! 

Post#87 » by tiderulz » Fri May 17, 2019 10:18 pm

SOUL wrote:
tiderulz wrote:that describes a lot of young players. we have a starting SF that didnt even average 10 ppg this year. Jackson who only started 29 games put up 11/4 and same 3 pt % as Isaac. and yet Isaac is seen as a "core" player.


This is... a bad take. Points don't mean crap looking at it in a bubble like that (i.e. comparing raw stats from two different players in two different situations, one from a team that had nothing to play for the entire year, versus a guy entrenched in a 4th-5th option offensive role). Yes, Isaac is a WIP on offense, but he played within those restraints which helped the team. Jackson's offense was a huge negative out there. Even though Jackson got benched, him and Isaac roughly had the same amount of minutes played for the year, and Jackson had an 8% higher usage rate (23.9 vs 16.3) to score a whopping two more points a game.

Jackson had an ORTG of 91 (!!) which is terrible, compared to Isaac's 107.

Jackson had a DRTG of 114 (!!) compared to Isaac's 106.

Jackson had negative 2.8 win shares on offense compared to Isaac's 0.9, and even on defense where Jackson had a decent impact (1.1 winshares), Isaac's was 2 points higher with 3.1.

His true shooting is also better, as well as a load of other things that measure offensive impact. So yeah, Jackson can have all that 11/4 and same 3 pt%, but it's hollow.

Isaac had 4.0 win shares for the team, which is pretty damn good for a 21 year old in his first official full season, good for 5th on the team behind Vuc and Ross who had great years, AG who had a more efficient year, and DJ who had a surprisingly effective year.

That's why he is seen as a "core" player and Jackson would not be.

and ISaac had an ORTG of 87 last year. coaching can play a large part. PHX was just letting them do whatever they wanted. and PHX was a very bad team, they didnt have a lot of wins to have any shares of.

im not coming in saying Jackson is some star. but he was good in college and may be just a late bloomer in the NBA
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Re: 2019 NBA Combine -> Time to dig in! 

Post#88 » by SOUL » Fri May 17, 2019 10:29 pm

tiderulz wrote:and ISaac had an ORTG of 87 last year. coaching can play a large part. PHX was just letting them do whatever they wanted. and PHX was a very bad team, they didnt have a lot of wins to have any shares of.

im not coming in saying Jackson is some star. but he was good in college and may be just a late bloomer in the NBA


Right, but I'm saying why the specific thing you mentioned (points and 3 pt%) don't consider him on par with Isaac as far as a core player if he was to come here.

But Isaac's trajectory is one that you want to see a young player have, at least so far. He was injured and streaky his first year, but settled himself down this year and became an impact player, with still much room for improvement.

Jackson, by all means, shouldn't of had this bad of a drop off in his 2nd year where he played 2 more games in total and similar minutes.

I agree that people give up on young players too easily, and that he could be a late bloomer, but his situation is different than guys that simply didn't have any room to show their talents (Tobias in Milwaukee, Fournier in Denver) than a guy that has been given quite a bit of freedom out there and is squandering it.

I don't think we'd be the right team for him if he were to turn it around, I think he needs a better/more veteran team that has a specific need for his skills off of the bench.
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Re: 2019 NBA Combine -> Time to dig in! 

Post#89 » by Bensational » Fri May 17, 2019 11:04 pm

Josh Jackson feels like he will end up on a career path like Lance Stephenson or Jonathon Simmons. A capable ballhandling wing who thinks he's a much more competent scorer than he is, who's always trying to play beyond his abilities. And I don't think Jackson has the head to figure it all out.

But maybe that's just compounded by playing in Phoenix, who are a hot mess right now. Put him on the Spurs, Jazz, Warriors, etc and I'm sure they find a way to mine some gold out of him. I'm not sure we're the right team for it, though.
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Re: 2019 NBA Combine -> Time to dig in! 

Post#90 » by Skin » Fri May 17, 2019 11:10 pm

pepe1991 wrote:
Skin wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:
I gave up on Hezonja after year and half. Literally. I'll post proof of it when i get home. Lol
I think playing time Hez got during tanking years was laughable but i was not blind to see his inability to impact game.

I don't need proof. The one guy you're known for supporting hard busted. It is what it is.

You love criticizing players and other posters who like them, but don't really have credibility to stand on your own.


:rofl:

This is my first post ever here ,and it was Harris and Sikes ( and Hezonja related)

by pepe1991 » Tue Jan 26, 2016 10:28 pm

First post ever here- Payton and Gordon are NOT rookies. Hezonja is, and he is getting Harris in Bucks type of treatmant. Dude was buried behind Moute and Marquis Daniels ( yea,who? He even started that guy for some reason ).

Harris played 11,6mpg under him :banghead:
Henson 13 mpg :crazy:
Sanders 14,5mpg :nod:

For example he played Dalambert and Ayon more than Henson ?! :crazy:

ANd above all A LOT of players said that they never knew what Skiles really wanted from them when they played for him.
Stephen Jackson said that Skiles is not for NBA ,that he is college coach.
Beno Udrih said that Skiles never wanted to talk about him and his role on a team.
Reports from Bucks said that he told his close friends that he hated team ( at times when he was coach ).


And just like that, my first post ever was basically foreshadowing for what will happen during SKiles season. Harris traded, vets played, he hated a team and quit.

But let's go on.
My post on Vučević at May 6th 2017

Vučević did add some new moves but in general he never made another leap in his development. He just swiched post offense for less effective ( but easier for his body ) mid range jumpers. He did improve at defending around rim but he still can't defend pick&roll. He only had 16 dunks this season, compare that to 29 last year or 56 year before. It's clear that he is fading further and further from rim, but still can't shoot 3s and that leaves him in no man's land of long 2s, worst shots you can take.
On offense he is worst version of Lamarcus Aldrige at this point.

So much of my bias toward somebody or lack of critics because,reasons .

And now your lies and myth busting

#38 » by pepe1991 » Sat May 20, 2017 2:56 am

Meh, too much picks, not enough time to give all of them fair chance. Magic for 2 years couldn't even find enough time for 5th overall pick ( not that he deserved it ) .


more of me being "blind supporter " -- "Mario can't dribble for 20 sec, he would turn ball over with first dribble :lol: " June 14, 2017


But let's go through some of your crap

kin wrote:
Elfrid Payton = Tony Parker

Stregths in ball handling, passing and close range scoring efficiency. Payton is a better defender and Parker is a better shooter, but they both share the most important characteristics needed for the position.


Skin wrote:
Aaron Gordon = Kawhi Leonard

Long, explosive wings who came into the league bringing defense, but needing to improve or prove they could be reliable shooters. Possess strong athletic frames that can be asked to guard opposing team's top wing scorer. I think Henny was hoping Harkless would fill this role, but that hasn't panned out.


Skin wrote:
And we're almost there!

Since Henny got here, he's been talking about sustainability, step by step and growing this organically. The Spurs have been the model for that philosophy and being a former Spurs guy, it's not hard to see why we would try to replicate their succ

Oh, this is such a joy to read. Preach mr skin, tell us more about your nostradamus- like visions of Magic Spurs, Hennigan era sustainability since you are credible one .

But just in case you think i would lie, there is link of this epic embarrassment if you wanna relive the moment agian and again, and again....
viewtopic.php?f=25&t=1370554&p=42589821&hilit=nicholson+exum#p42589821

I give you credit pepe. You have a real art for taking things out of context.

This wasn't a thread about Player A = Player B. You either didn't read or you carefully side stepped that part of the original post.

Skin wrote:I've never believed in exactness in player comparisons, so don't try to go beyond level of reason in any disagreement you may have in these comparisons.


Skin wrote:This was never about Player A = Player B. I told you that from that start, but you did it anyways. :roll: I could've gone around the league and found better side by side comparisons for our players, but it never was about that. It was looking at how the kind of talent they built their team with and seeing where Henny might be following suit with the decisions he made in choosing what types of players he wanted to bring in.

I thought we were going to have conversations about him choosing Payton over Smart and Exum because he was a "closer" match to Parker. But people went off the deep end thinking I meant "exact" matches. :crazy:

Or maybe explain why we traded for Fournier being similar to Bellinelli.... signing Gordon as a 3pt specialist ala Green or Brent Barry in the past. Frye flashing traits that Bonner or Horry did.

etc etc etc

This really was supposed to be more light hearted, and I started my earlier responses off that way (even taking shots at myself) so I dunno bro.



You acting like this was supposed to be some type of prophetic post when in actuality it was looking at things in a backwards light just goes to show your incompetency. Sorry that the only player you ever liked in the draft and the reason why you created your RealGm account turned out to be such a bust. I can understand why you refuse to put yourself out there again. It's much easier to critique than project.
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Re: 2019 NBA Combine -> Time to dig in! 

Post#91 » by Skin » Fri May 17, 2019 11:15 pm

Bensational wrote:Josh Jackson feels like he will end up on a career path like Lance Stephenson or Jonathon Simmons. A capable ballhandling wing who thinks he's a much more competent scorer than he is, who's always trying to play beyond his abilities. And I don't think Jackson has the head to figure it all out.

But maybe that's just compounded by playing in Phoenix, who are a hot mess right now. Put him on the Spurs, Jazz, Warriors, etc and I'm sure they find a way to mine some gold out of him. I'm not sure we're the right team for it, though.

If he comes cheap he's worth taking a chance on. I wouldn't give the 16th pick up for him, but I would send over Fournier in some package.
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Re: 2019 NBA Combine -> Time to dig in! 

Post#92 » by Xatticus » Fri May 17, 2019 11:22 pm

SOUL wrote:
tiderulz wrote:and ISaac had an ORTG of 87 last year. coaching can play a large part. PHX was just letting them do whatever they wanted. and PHX was a very bad team, they didnt have a lot of wins to have any shares of.

im not coming in saying Jackson is some star. but he was good in college and may be just a late bloomer in the NBA


Right, but I'm saying why the specific thing you mentioned (points and 3 pt%) don't consider him on par with Isaac as far as a core player if he was to come here.

But Isaac's trajectory is one that you want to see a young player have, at least so far. He was injured and streaky his first year, but settled himself down this year and became an impact player, with still much room for improvement.

Jackson, by all means, shouldn't of had this bad of a drop off in his 2nd year where he played 2 more games in total and similar minutes.

I agree that people give up on young players too easily, and that he could be a late bloomer, but his situation is different than guys that simply didn't have any room to show their talents (Tobias in Milwaukee, Fournier in Denver) than a guy that has been given quite a bit of freedom out there and is squandering it.

I don't think we'd be the right team for him if he were to turn it around, I think he needs a better/more veteran team that has a specific need for his skills off of the bench.


It was a poor comparison, but I think it's distracting from the initial question.

To my mind, the talent is worth taking a chance on if Phoenix is going to dump him. He has the tools to be a plus defender. He can handle the ball. He gets out in transition. He can grab it and go to create transition opportunities. He can use his dribble to get to the basket. He can initiate the pick-and-roll. He is a willing screener. He has good size and athleticism for a three. He showed demonstrable improvement as a shooter this year. He has decent vision and is a willing passer. He is willing to take contact to get to the free throw line. This is a really versatile offensive player.

His finishing at the rim is a legitimate concern and his shot selection is a bit too indiscriminate. He hasn't been efficient thus far, but he has the tools to be a contributor at both ends and I have little doubt that Clifford could help him.

Answering the question as to whether or not he is a worthwhile gamble for us requires information I don't have access to. I didn't like him at the time of the draft because I had concerns about his character and because I preferred Isaac. He hasn't exactly quelled my concerns regarding his character over the last couple years, but our front office has surely done a lot of work into researching this. I'd be amenable to his acquisition if our front office thought it worthwhile and if it didn't require us parting with any significant assets. I could certainly see him falling out of Phoenix's rotation when Warren returns and it's not too far from there to getting dumped.
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Re: 2019 NBA Combine -> Time to dig in! 

Post#93 » by Bensational » Fri May 17, 2019 11:31 pm

Xatticus wrote:
SOUL wrote:
tiderulz wrote:and ISaac had an ORTG of 87 last year. coaching can play a large part. PHX was just letting them do whatever they wanted. and PHX was a very bad team, they didnt have a lot of wins to have any shares of.

im not coming in saying Jackson is some star. but he was good in college and may be just a late bloomer in the NBA


Right, but I'm saying why the specific thing you mentioned (points and 3 pt%) don't consider him on par with Isaac as far as a core player if he was to come here.

But Isaac's trajectory is one that you want to see a young player have, at least so far. He was injured and streaky his first year, but settled himself down this year and became an impact player, with still much room for improvement.

Jackson, by all means, shouldn't of had this bad of a drop off in his 2nd year where he played 2 more games in total and similar minutes.

I agree that people give up on young players too easily, and that he could be a late bloomer, but his situation is different than guys that simply didn't have any room to show their talents (Tobias in Milwaukee, Fournier in Denver) than a guy that has been given quite a bit of freedom out there and is squandering it.

I don't think we'd be the right team for him if he were to turn it around, I think he needs a better/more veteran team that has a specific need for his skills off of the bench.


It was a poor comparison, but I think it's distracting from the initial question.

To my mind, the talent is worth taking a chance on if Phoenix is going to dump him. He has the tools to be a plus defender. He can handle the ball. He gets out in transition. He can grab it and go to create transition opportunities. He can use his dribble to get to the basket. He can initiate the pick-and-roll. He is a willing screener. He has good size and athleticism for a three. He showed demonstrable improvement as a shooter this year. He has decent vision and is a willing passer. He is willing to take contact to get to the free throw line. This is a really versatile offensive player.

His finishing at the rim is a legitimate concern and his shot selection is a bit too indiscriminate. He hasn't been efficient thus far, but he has the tools to be a contributor at both ends and I have little doubt that Clifford could help him.

Answering the question as to whether or not he is a worthwhile gamble for us requires information I don't have access to. I didn't like him at the time of the draft because I had concerns about his character and because I preferred Isaac. He hasn't exactly quelled my concerns regarding his character over the last couple years, but our front office has surely done a lot of work into researching this. I'd be amenable to his acquisition if our front office thought it worthwhile and if it didn't require us parting with any significant assets. I could certainly see him falling out of Phoenix's rotation when Warren returns and it's not too far from there to getting dumped.


Considering the work Clifford did to pull AG back into picking better shots, he might be able to get a similar result with Jackson. His skill is certainly there.

But then, we've got Iwundu doing similar things off the bench at a fraction of the cost, and the mentality to accept being a bench player. So is the risk worth the reward? If he comes free, sure.

But if I'm Phoenix, I'd dangle Jackson + Warren for Conley. Bring in a veteran PG to stabilise the team whilst their drafted pick matures. Try to get competitive finally. And Memphis likely won't see a better offer.
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Re: 2019 NBA Combine -> Time to dig in! 

Post#94 » by Skin » Fri May 17, 2019 11:35 pm

Bensational wrote:
Xatticus wrote:
SOUL wrote:
Right, but I'm saying why the specific thing you mentioned (points and 3 pt%) don't consider him on par with Isaac as far as a core player if he was to come here.

But Isaac's trajectory is one that you want to see a young player have, at least so far. He was injured and streaky his first year, but settled himself down this year and became an impact player, with still much room for improvement.

Jackson, by all means, shouldn't of had this bad of a drop off in his 2nd year where he played 2 more games in total and similar minutes.

I agree that people give up on young players too easily, and that he could be a late bloomer, but his situation is different than guys that simply didn't have any room to show their talents (Tobias in Milwaukee, Fournier in Denver) than a guy that has been given quite a bit of freedom out there and is squandering it.

I don't think we'd be the right team for him if he were to turn it around, I think he needs a better/more veteran team that has a specific need for his skills off of the bench.


It was a poor comparison, but I think it's distracting from the initial question.

To my mind, the talent is worth taking a chance on if Phoenix is going to dump him. He has the tools to be a plus defender. He can handle the ball. He gets out in transition. He can grab it and go to create transition opportunities. He can use his dribble to get to the basket. He can initiate the pick-and-roll. He is a willing screener. He has good size and athleticism for a three. He showed demonstrable improvement as a shooter this year. He has decent vision and is a willing passer. He is willing to take contact to get to the free throw line. This is a really versatile offensive player.

His finishing at the rim is a legitimate concern and his shot selection is a bit too indiscriminate. He hasn't been efficient thus far, but he has the tools to be a contributor at both ends and I have little doubt that Clifford could help him.

Answering the question as to whether or not he is a worthwhile gamble for us requires information I don't have access to. I didn't like him at the time of the draft because I had concerns about his character and because I preferred Isaac. He hasn't exactly quelled my concerns regarding his character over the last couple years, but our front office has surely done a lot of work into researching this. I'd be amenable to his acquisition if our front office thought it worthwhile and if it didn't require us parting with any significant assets. I could certainly see him falling out of Phoenix's rotation when Warren returns and it's not too far from there to getting dumped.


Considering the work Clifford did to pull AG back into picking better shots, he might be able to get a similar result with Jackson. His skill is certainly there.

But then, we've got Iwundu doing similar things off the bench at a fraction of the cost, and the mentality to accept being a bench player. So is the risk worth the reward? If he comes free, sure.

But if I'm Phoenix, I'd dangle Jackson + Warren for Conley. Bring in a veteran PG to stabilise the team whilst their drafted pick matures. Try to get competitive finally. And Memphis likely won't see a better offer.

Good point about Iwundu.
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Re: 2019 NBA Combine -> Time to dig in! 

Post#95 » by SOUL » Fri May 17, 2019 11:43 pm

Xatticus wrote:To my mind, the talent is worth taking a chance on if Phoenix is going to dump him. He has the tools to be a plus defender. He can handle the ball. He gets out in transition. He can grab it and go to create transition opportunities. He can use his dribble to get to the basket. He can initiate the pick-and-roll. He is a willing screener. He has good size and athleticism for a three. He showed demonstrable improvement as a shooter this year. He has decent vision and is a willing passer. He is willing to take contact to get to the free throw line. This is a really versatile offensive player.


The issue with all of that is that he's still a largely negative player. Not that a young player struggling or not being efficient/effective is the issue, but you wish that the eye-test would make you more hopeful than the stats do. The fact that a lot of Phoenix fans have given up on him and watch him way more than any of us does, kind of confirms to me that there is something "not there" with him.

It also has to be taken into account how much of those skills would he be able to unlock on this current roster. I think I'd be much more comfortable with the idea if we didn't already have Fultz's contract being a bit of a gamble -- that's two very risky prospects to invest that much money in. I'd also argue "demonstrable improvement" looking at statistics alone. He made 16 more threes on 8 more attempts, and had a total of .8 better True Shooting percentage. But I watched maybe one or two Phoenix games the entire year, so I'm going strictly on statistics.

Xatticus wrote:His finishing at the rim is a legitimate concern and his shot selection is a bit too indiscriminate. He hasn't been efficient thus far, but he has the tools to be a contributor at both ends and I have little doubt that Clifford could help him.

Answering the question as to whether or not he is a worthwhile gamble for us requires information I don't have access to. I didn't like him at the time of the draft because I had concerns about his character and because I preferred Isaac. He hasn't exactly quelled my concerns regarding his character over the last couple years, but our front office has surely done a lot of work into researching this. I'd be amenable to his acquisition if our front office thought it worthwhile and if it didn't require us parting with any significant assets. I could certainly see him falling out of Phoenix's rotation when Warren returns and it's not too far from there to getting dumped.


To me, it depends on what we do this offseason, whose minutes he would theoretically be cutting into if he was acquired, etc. I'm usually all for picking up much maligned players not working out on other teams/in other systems, but I feel he may be too big of a risk for my tastes.
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Re: 2019 NBA Combine -> Time to dig in! 

Post#96 » by tiderulz » Sat May 18, 2019 12:37 am

Skin wrote:
Bensational wrote:Josh Jackson feels like he will end up on a career path like Lance Stephenson or Jonathon Simmons. A capable ballhandling wing who thinks he's a much more competent scorer than he is, who's always trying to play beyond his abilities. And I don't think Jackson has the head to figure it all out.

But maybe that's just compounded by playing in Phoenix, who are a hot mess right now. Put him on the Spurs, Jazz, Warriors, etc and I'm sure they find a way to mine some gold out of him. I'm not sure we're the right team for it, though.

If he comes cheap he's worth taking a chance on. I wouldn't give the 16th pick up for him, but I would send over Fournier in some package.

thats all that i was saying
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Re: 2019 NBA Combine -> Time to dig in! 

Post#97 » by tiderulz » Sat May 18, 2019 12:40 am

Skin wrote:
Bensational wrote:
Xatticus wrote:
It was a poor comparison, but I think it's distracting from the initial question.

To my mind, the talent is worth taking a chance on if Phoenix is going to dump him. He has the tools to be a plus defender. He can handle the ball. He gets out in transition. He can grab it and go to create transition opportunities. He can use his dribble to get to the basket. He can initiate the pick-and-roll. He is a willing screener. He has good size and athleticism for a three. He showed demonstrable improvement as a shooter this year. He has decent vision and is a willing passer. He is willing to take contact to get to the free throw line. This is a really versatile offensive player.

His finishing at the rim is a legitimate concern and his shot selection is a bit too indiscriminate. He hasn't been efficient thus far, but he has the tools to be a contributor at both ends and I have little doubt that Clifford could help him.

Answering the question as to whether or not he is a worthwhile gamble for us requires information I don't have access to. I didn't like him at the time of the draft because I had concerns about his character and because I preferred Isaac. He hasn't exactly quelled my concerns regarding his character over the last couple years, but our front office has surely done a lot of work into researching this. I'd be amenable to his acquisition if our front office thought it worthwhile and if it didn't require us parting with any significant assets. I could certainly see him falling out of Phoenix's rotation when Warren returns and it's not too far from there to getting dumped.


Considering the work Clifford did to pull AG back into picking better shots, he might be able to get a similar result with Jackson. His skill is certainly there.

But then, we've got Iwundu doing similar things off the bench at a fraction of the cost, and the mentality to accept being a bench player. So is the risk worth the reward? If he comes free, sure.

But if I'm Phoenix, I'd dangle Jackson + Warren for Conley. Bring in a veteran PG to stabilise the team whilst their drafted pick matures. Try to get competitive finally. And Memphis likely won't see a better offer.

Good point about Iwundu.

you guys want players with the mentality to be a bench player? i want a player that fight/desires to be a starter. And Jackson has more physical tools than Iwundu.
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Re: 2019 NBA Combine -> Time to dig in! 

Post#98 » by Xatticus » Sat May 18, 2019 12:43 am

SOUL wrote:
Xatticus wrote:To my mind, the talent is worth taking a chance on if Phoenix is going to dump him. He has the tools to be a plus defender. He can handle the ball. He gets out in transition. He can grab it and go to create transition opportunities. He can use his dribble to get to the basket. He can initiate the pick-and-roll. He is a willing screener. He has good size and athleticism for a three. He showed demonstrable improvement as a shooter this year. He has decent vision and is a willing passer. He is willing to take contact to get to the free throw line. This is a really versatile offensive player.


The issue with all of that is that he's still a largely negative player. Not that a young player struggling or not being efficient/effective is the issue, but you wish that the eye-test would make you more hopeful than the stats do. The fact that a lot of Phoenix fans have given up on him and watch him way more than any of us does, kind of confirms to me that there is something "not there" with him.

It also has to be taken into account how much of those skills would he be able to unlock on this current roster. I think I'd be much more comfortable with the idea if we didn't already have Fultz's contract being a bit of a gamble -- that's two very risky prospects to invest that much money in. I'd also argue "demonstrable improvement" looking at statistics alone. He made 16 more threes on 8 more attempts, and had a total of .8 better True Shooting percentage. But I watched maybe one or two Phoenix games the entire year, so I'm going strictly on statistics.

Xatticus wrote:His finishing at the rim is a legitimate concern and his shot selection is a bit too indiscriminate. He hasn't been efficient thus far, but he has the tools to be a contributor at both ends and I have little doubt that Clifford could help him.

Answering the question as to whether or not he is a worthwhile gamble for us requires information I don't have access to. I didn't like him at the time of the draft because I had concerns about his character and because I preferred Isaac. He hasn't exactly quelled my concerns regarding his character over the last couple years, but our front office has surely done a lot of work into researching this. I'd be amenable to his acquisition if our front office thought it worthwhile and if it didn't require us parting with any significant assets. I could certainly see him falling out of Phoenix's rotation when Warren returns and it's not too far from there to getting dumped.


To me, it depends on what we do this offseason, whose minutes he would theoretically be cutting into if he was acquired, etc. I'm usually all for picking up much maligned players not working out on other teams/in other systems, but I feel he may be too big of a risk for my tastes.


Yeah. I can't really disagree with any of this and I'm not actually advocating that he is someone we should target. I'm just not writing him off yet and I'm willing give this front office the benefit of the doubt if they decided to take the risk. I don't think any player will realize their potential if they aren't right between the ears or if they aren't coachable.

As to the improvement in shooting I mentioned, his accuracy from beyond 10 feet increased across the board, but this was almost entirely offset by declines from within 10 feet. Most players have their shooting lines buoyed by their finishing at the rim, but that just isn't the case for Jackson. I don't know why he is such a poor finisher around the basket. His AST%-to-USG% ratio improved substantially though; and that is progress.

I don't know that there is a place on the roster for Jackson. Isaac is almost certainly starting next year, I expect Iwundu will be back, and Frazier's contract is guaranteed. I'm not at all concerned about his salary though, as I would expect that we would be sending some salary back out to bring him in and his contract isn't guaranteed beyond next season (though we would have to make that decision rather early in the season).

Where I would differ with you is that I have been more reluctant to taking risks in the past than I am now because of everything that I've heard from players about Clifford's coaching style. They have described him as tough, but genuine, fair, and caring. I feel a lot better about our ability to develop youth than I had under the previous regime.
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Re: 2019 NBA Combine -> Time to dig in! 

Post#99 » by nicnac215 » Sat May 18, 2019 12:44 am

Skin wrote:
Bensational wrote:Josh Jackson feels like he will end up on a career path like Lance Stephenson or Jonathon Simmons. A capable ballhandling wing who thinks he's a much more competent scorer than he is, who's always trying to play beyond his abilities. And I don't think Jackson has the head to figure it all out.

But maybe that's just compounded by playing in Phoenix, who are a hot mess right now. Put him on the Spurs, Jazz, Warriors, etc and I'm sure they find a way to mine some gold out of him. I'm not sure we're the right team for it, though.

If he comes cheap he's worth taking a chance on. I wouldn't give the 16th pick up for him, but I would send over Fournier in some package.

Fournier or Mozgov are the only players I would trade for Jackson. Hell I’d give up a 2nd with Fournier just to get him off the team. He isn’t a bad player but I want him gone. And to think I thought he could have a better career than Oladipo. SMH
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Re: 2019 NBA Combine -> Time to dig in! 

Post#100 » by Skin » Sat May 18, 2019 1:10 am

tiderulz wrote:
Skin wrote:
Bensational wrote:
Considering the work Clifford did to pull AG back into picking better shots, he might be able to get a similar result with Jackson. His skill is certainly there.

But then, we've got Iwundu doing similar things off the bench at a fraction of the cost, and the mentality to accept being a bench player. So is the risk worth the reward? If he comes free, sure.

But if I'm Phoenix, I'd dangle Jackson + Warren for Conley. Bring in a veteran PG to stabilise the team whilst their drafted pick matures. Try to get competitive finally. And Memphis likely won't see a better offer.

Good point about Iwundu.

you guys want players with the mentality to be a bench player? i want a player that fight/desires to be a starter. And Jackson has more physical tools than Iwundu.

That's true too. I like Iwundu in his role. I appreciate him accepting his role. I feel like he has potential to grow into a bigger contributor.

But Jackson has starter potential if he can put things together and he started to show that towards the end of the season. This VIP snaffu is nothing that worries me about his future. Honestly, I think it was hard for him to steal minutes away from Warren who is such a shot happy guy still trying to build up his name in the NBA at the same time. Combine that with Oubre and Bridges... Jackson really had a crowded field to compete with. Make one mistake and get pulled for another type of situation. Without a PG to direct the flow of the game and distribute to boot. It's been selfish misery going on in PHX... and that's a losing culture.

Put him in new waters and he might flourish.

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