Draft Thread: Knicks got #3 - Combine and Beyond

[Context]

My gut says Barrett is going to become an all star...But the more I read about him the more I want to keep him- even with KD...
we need to forget this AD stuff...Too much to give to get him- even if we keep Mitch...KD and KYRIE- are just going to have to realize if you want to put a chip team together in a short amount of time that can beat the bucks- they are going to have to take a pay cut. Period...Time for them to put their GM cap on- plain and simple...

I am happy either way honestly. RJ would be fun to follow because he's ready to score NOW and still has lots of potential due to his passing ability and room for shooting improvement, and acquiring AD would also be cool because he's not yet hit his prime and is one of the best players in the league.

I can prefer one over the other depending on the day of the week, but the fun part is that there's very little obvious downside to this summer. Sure, things could go wrong or they could divert from the plan and sign Butler and Kemba to maxes, but the big options on the table are all really enticing - even if you gut the youth for AD.

And you know what- thats fair - I cant blame you for it...The only issue I have with AD is his health and I dont think he's an Alpha...
These are my first two reasons for not wanting to trade for him...None the less, we have a lot to look forward to...

[Grumpy Heat Fan]

First of all, I don't view KD as a top 2 player nor do I view AD as a top 5 player. But that's another conversation.

What you said in your first paragraph is wrong however. Amar'e was an All-NBA second team selection just weeks prior to signing with the Knicks. He was definitely a top 15 player in the league at the time.

Wade
Lebron
Carmelo
CP3
Kevin Garnett
Chris Bosh
Dwight Howard
Derrick Rose
Paul Pierce
Steve Nash
Kobe Bryant
Tim Duncan
Kevin Durant
Dirk Nowitzki
Brandon Roy

That's 15 players that were better than Amare in their 2010 version, which is when Amare signed with NY.


If you recall, Amare was seen as a system player benefiting from playing with Steve Nash, the 2 time MVP feeding him easy baskets.

Amar'e was an All-NBA second team selection in 2010. This here is an indisputable fact. He was also considered a bigger fish than Bosh at the time (even though Bosh then went on to have a far better career that STAT). I rest my case.

Maybe in NY.

I remmeber the Heat boards wanting nothing to do with Amare, because of his knee surgeries and being a system player.


And as for Lebron....

Despite having Wade, Kyrie, Bosh, Love, Ray Allen, and being on 2 super teams for more than half of his career, a LeBron team has never been the overwhelming favorite to win it all, like the Warriors, Lakers, and Bulls were.

And one more thing. No all time player has ever **** the bed as badly as Lebron did in 2011 vs the Mavs.

You guys laughed at Kyle Lowry only putting up 7 points in the playoffs the other week?

Lebron did that in an NBA finals game, putting up only 8 pts In game 5, while being guarded by an old Jason Kidd and Jason Terry.


It was after that 2011 loss, that Miami had to tailor -everything- for "Lebron ball" because the guy had no clue how to play within a team system. Wade took a backseat and Riley built the team differently, just so Lebron could succeed. Then lebron copied the formula and took it to CLE with a Kyre (replaces Wade) and Kevin Love (replaces Bosh) system.

[Chanel Bomber]

We need to stop looking for saviors. Neither KD nor AD will save this franchise.

We do need to hold this front office accountable for their draft picks. The fact that Steve Mills and Scott Perry are committed to building the right way and not trading draft picks is a major step in the right direction and I applaud them. But the only way to build a contender in a way that is sustainable and also rewarding is to hit on our draft picks. No more Kevin Knox and Frank Ntilikina. Having the right approach is great but it is not enough.

Also, if KD or AD want to come as free agents, awesome, but we should not expect them to lead us to the promised land or we're setting ourselves up for disappointment.

[Grumpy Heat Fan]

We need to stop looking for saviors. Neither KD nor AD will save this franchise.

We do need to hold this front office accountable for their draft picks. The fact that Steve Mills and Scott Perry are committed to building the right way and not trading draft picks is a major step in the right direction and I applaud them. But the only way to build a contender in a way that is sustainable and also rewarding is to hit on our draft picks. No more Kevin Knox and Frank Ntilikina. Having the right approach is great but it is not enough.

Also, if KD or AD want to come as free agents, awesome, but we should not expect them to lead us to the promised land or we're setting ourselves up for disappointment.

I can definitely feel where you're coming from.

As a long time suffering Dolphins fan... we expect everything to go wrong too.


But you guys have a real shot at a dynasty here. I'm supposed to hate the Knicks, but those 1990s rivalries are long gone now, and I'd like to see the Knicks come back into relevance.

[Context]

Giannis LeBron Durant Davis Kawhi.

If you say Curry, then you just trashed your own defense for Iggy. No top 5 talent should have his deficiencies masked by a 35 year old.

Curry is more impactful than Durant and Davis

Exactly Fury...I ve never seen anything like it and he perfect for revenue as well- he's the best of both worlds...

[Richard4444]

So who do we like with our 55 pick?

Aubrey Dawkins. Especially if DSJ and Frank are included in any trades.

We have to build cap room to sign the 55 pick. We are at least 128k short to keep Dotson and Trier. We would need almost U$2M in total extra cap space to sign the 55 pick.

Furthermore if we deal Frank, DSJr, Knox or Trier at draft night, I think we will trade up this 55 pick in the deal.

[HEZI]

We need to stop looking for saviors. Neither KD nor AD will save this franchise.

We do need to hold this front office accountable for their draft picks. The fact that Steve Mills and Scott Perry are committed to building the right way and not trading draft picks is a major step in the right direction and I applaud them. But the only way to build a contender in a way that is sustainable and also rewarding is to hit on our draft picks. No more Kevin Knox and Frank Ntilikina. Having the right approach is great but it is not enough.

Also, if KD or AD want to come as free agents, awesome, but we should not expect them to lead us to the promised land or we're setting ourselves up for disappointment.

I don't get it, what do you mean stop looking for saviors? You mean through free agenc and trades? Because that's literrally what people are praying for in the draft, a savior. Doncic, Zion, etc.

What's funny is that if the player being discussed is Luka Doncic, how many people would have thrown everything and the kitchen sink at a trade to land him? The thing is people want some fantasy of a 10 year dynasty that is going to compete for a loooong period of time and thats why they want youth but they ignore the entire process that comes with it. 26 year olds are now looked at as geezers and 19 year olds are prized possessions but people don't want to be real about the possibility of not even being in position to put a good enough team around those 19 year old until they are basically 24/25 years of age and no longer on their rookie scale contract.

It was only a couple years ago that AD was considered as one of the best young players to build a franchise around and now he's not even a top 10 player anymore? Crazy

[Zenzibar]

So who do we like with our 55 pick?

Aubrey Dawkins. Especially if DSJ and Frank are included in any trades.

We have to build cap room to sign the 55 pick. We are at least 128k short to keep Dotson and Trier. We would need almost U$2M in total extra cap space to sign the 55 pick.

Furthermore if we deal Frank, DSJr, Knox or Trier at draft night, I think we will trade up this 55 pick in the deal.

Thanks. It's tough.
Just thinking if we dont trade for AD, the team as constructed even with KD and Kyrie cant beat the Warriors even if we get that far.
Correct me of wrong but in a couple of years you have young guys coming off their present contracts, only to be filled by higher salaried future 1st round picks. Making keeping the young players difficult anyway.
Am I right?

[KnixinSix]

We need to stop looking for saviors. Neither KD nor AD will save this franchise.

We do need to hold this front office accountable for their draft picks. The fact that Steve Mills and Scott Perry are committed to building the right way and not trading draft picks is a major step in the right direction and I applaud them. But the only way to build a contender in a way that is sustainable and also rewarding is to hit on our draft picks. No more Kevin Knox and Frank Ntilikina. Having the right approach is great but it is not enough.

Also, if KD or AD want to come as free agents, awesome, but we should not expect them to lead us to the promised land or we're setting ourselves up for disappointment.

I don't get it, what do you mean stop looking for saviors? You mean through free agenc and trades? Because that's literrally what people are praying for in the draft, a savior. Doncic, Zion, etc.

What's funny is that if the player being discussed is Luka Doncic, how many people would have thrown everything and the kitchen sink at a trade to land him? The thing is people want some fantasy of a 10 year dynasty that is going to compete for a loooong period of time and thats why they want youth but they ignore the entire process that comes with it. 26 year olds are now looked at as geezers and 19 year olds are prized possessions but people don't want to be real about the possibility of not even being in position to put a good enough team around those 19 year old until they are basically 24/25 years of age and no longer on their rookie scale contract.

It was only a couple years ago that AD was considered as one of the best young players to build a franchise around and now he's not even a top 10 player anymore? Crazy

Lol well said. Couldnt have said it better myself. Its called the 'Home Groan-er' effect. Those who blindly grown for a team to be filled with only guys we drafted. It can work but the chances are so so much smaller than pursuing an already established top 10 FA in the entire NBA. Look how long Philly was playing that game and they are still not quite there. For every GSW there are 10 teams that failed at it.

[KnixinSix]

We need to stop looking for saviors. Neither KD nor AD will save this franchise.

We do need to hold this front office accountable for their draft picks. The fact that Steve Mills and Scott Perry are committed to building the right way and not trading draft picks is a major step in the right direction and I applaud them. But the only way to build a contender in a way that is sustainable and also rewarding is to hit on our draft picks. No more Kevin Knox and Frank Ntilikina. Having the right approach is great but it is not enough.

Also, if KD or AD want to come as free agents, awesome, but we should not expect them to lead us to the promised land or we're setting ourselves up for disappointment.

I can definitely feel where you're coming from.

As a long time suffering Dolphins fan... we expect everything to go wrong too.


But you guys have a real shot at a dynasty here. I'm supposed to hate the Knicks, but those 1990s rivalries are long gone now, and I'd like to see the Knicks come back into relevance.

Why dont you give some of these guys more insight to how well that big 3 assembled in Miami did? Pertaining to their bench etc. How they signed folks while still up against the cap etc.

[Thugger HBC]

My gut says Barrett is going to become an all star...But the more I read about him the more I want to keep him- even with KD...
we need to forget this AD stuff...Too much to give to get him- even if we keep Mitch...KD and KYRIE- are just going to have to realize if you want to put a chip team together in a short amount of time that can beat the bucks- they are going to have to take a pay cut. Period...Time for them to put their GM cap on- plain and simple...

I am happy either way honestly. RJ would be fun to follow because he's ready to score NOW and still has lots of potential due to his passing ability and room for shooting improvement, and acquiring AD would also be cool because he's not yet hit his prime and is one of the best players in the league.

I can prefer one over the other depending on the day of the week, but the fun part is that there's very little obvious downside to this summer. Sure, things could go wrong or they could divert from the plan and sign Butler and Kemba to maxes, but the big options on the table are all really enticing - even if you gut the youth for AD.

And you know what- thats fair - I cant blame you for it...The only issue I have with AD is his health and I dont think he's an Alpha...
These are my first two reasons for not wanting to trade for him...None the less, we have a lot to look forward to...

Davis wont be signed here to be the alpha, durant would obviously be that guy.

Secondly, Davis in the past three seasons, games played....

75-75-56(this was basically because he asked for a trade) had missed 5 games prior to trade requst.

I dont have an interest in such a trade, but these are not bonfide reasons.

[Chanel Bomber]

We need to stop looking for saviors. Neither KD nor AD will save this franchise.

We do need to hold this front office accountable for their draft picks. The fact that Steve Mills and Scott Perry are committed to building the right way and not trading draft picks is a major step in the right direction and I applaud them. But the only way to build a contender in a way that is sustainable and also rewarding is to hit on our draft picks. No more Kevin Knox and Frank Ntilikina. Having the right approach is great but it is not enough.

Also, if KD or AD want to come as free agents, awesome, but we should not expect them to lead us to the promised land or we're setting ourselves up for disappointment.

I don't get it, what do you mean stop looking for saviors? You mean through free agenc and trades? Because that's literrally what people are praying for in the draft, a savior. Doncic, Zion, etc.

What's funny is that if the player being discussed is Luka Doncic, how many people would have thrown everything and the kitchen sink at a trade to land him? The thing is people want some fantasy of a 10 year dynasty that is going to compete for a loooong period of time and thats why they want youth but they ignore the entire process that comes with it. 26 year olds are now looked at as geezers and 19 year olds are prized possessions but people don't want to be real about the possibility of not even being in position to put a good enough team around those 19 year old until they are basically 24/25 years of age and no longer on their rookie scale contract.

It was only a couple years ago that AD was considered as one of the best young players to build a franchise around and now he's not even a top 10 player anymore? Crazy

Every championship team since the early 80s with the exception of the 2004 Pistons had a homegrown player as their foundationial piece. Building a team around a bunch of mercenaries for me is like building on quicksand. If you want to go against 40 years of evidence, more power to you.

I don't see AD as a guy who can lead a team to a championship anyway, for whatever it's worth. He's a fringe top 10 player to me, in the 8 to 12 range. And again, I'm not against signing him as a free agent, but I think trading for him would be a huge mistake that will set back this franchise another 5 to 10 years.

[Oscirus]

Yea Davis is gonna cost us a Herschel walker type load. I legit don't know if he's worth all that. Yes he's a great player that would get us in the playoffs, but does the combination of him kd and Irving make us contenders or pretenders? If its the latter, then he's obviously not worth all that.

[Grumpy Heat Fan]

We need to stop looking for saviors. Neither KD nor AD will save this franchise.

We do need to hold this front office accountable for their draft picks. The fact that Steve Mills and Scott Perry are committed to building the right way and not trading draft picks is a major step in the right direction and I applaud them. But the only way to build a contender in a way that is sustainable and also rewarding is to hit on our draft picks. No more Kevin Knox and Frank Ntilikina. Having the right approach is great but it is not enough.

Also, if KD or AD want to come as free agents, awesome, but we should not expect them to lead us to the promised land or we're setting ourselves up for disappointment.

I can definitely feel where you're coming from.

As a long time suffering Dolphins fan... we expect everything to go wrong too.


But you guys have a real shot at a dynasty here. I'm supposed to hate the Knicks, but those 1990s rivalries are long gone now, and I'd like to see the Knicks come back into relevance.

Why dont you give some of these guys more insight to how well that big 3 assembled in Miami did? Pertaining to their bench etc. How they signed folks while still up against the cap etc.

When you have the superstars, it's really easy to sign role players to help them. Every player wants to be part of "something special" and get relevant minutes on a super team.

We had no money to sign anyone, but players took discounts to play for Miami

For example, Ray Allen.

Ray Allen had better offers from other teams, but he was told he would be a significant rotation player and a very important part of our team to help Lebron, Wade, and Bosh... and that's exactly what Ray Allen wanted to hear. He left more money on the table and took a discount to join Miami and be an impact player on a championship team. And he got his wish, with that 2013 Finals and what is considered the GOAT Clutch shot in Finals history with that 3pter against the Spurs. It's stuff like that what players dream of doing.

Also, the veterans that get bought out or waived, all look for situations like that. For example, Chris "Birdman" Andersen. He was under investigation by the police for some crime, and Denver waived him. Three teams went after him, but he said "Miami is my #1" and signed a couple of 10-day contracts with Miami. Didn't even get a full contract until after the second 10-day contract, but Birdman wanted to play in Miami and ignored other better offers. Miami then went on a 27 game win streak with him. He chose Miami, again, because every player wants to put themselves into situations like that.


The Heat were also able to get guys like Mike Bibby when they got bought out. And Rashard Lewis. These guys got bought out by their teams, and then chose to take vet minimums to play for Miami and get a ring and rehab their career by having everyone see them play on the big stage. Wade used to call Rashard Lewis "two checks" in the locker room, because he was getting paid by his former team, and also the Heat.


Then, also, even when you have no money, you still get the Mid-Level Exception I believe, the MLE, which at the time back then was around $5 mil or so? Which was enough to get us to convince Shane Battier to take a discount and come play for the Heat. And he agreed, and took less money to come play a significant role on a championship team.


It happened with the Warriors too. "The Rich get Richer" syndrome.

[KnixinSix]

I can definitely feel where you're coming from.

As a long time suffering Dolphins fan... we expect everything to go wrong too.


But you guys have a real shot at a dynasty here. I'm supposed to hate the Knicks, but those 1990s rivalries are long gone now, and I'd like to see the Knicks come back into relevance.

Why dont you give some of these guys more insight to how well that big 3 assembled in Miami did? Pertaining to their bench etc. How they signed folks while still up against the cap etc.

When you have the superstars, it's really easy to sign role players to help them. Every player wants to be part of "something special" and get relevant minutes on a contending team.

We had no money to sign anyone, but players took discounts to play for Miami because it meant significant minutes on the "superteam" and be on the big stage.

For example, Ray Allen.

Ray Allen had better offers from other teams, but he was told he would be a significant rotation player and a very important part of our team to help Lebron, Wade, and Bosh... and that's exactly what Ray Allen wanted to hear. He left more money on the table and took a discount to join Miami and be an impact player on a championship team. And he got his wish, with that 2012 Finals and what is considered the GOAT Clutch shot in Finals history with that 3pter against the Spurs. It's stuff like that what players dream of doing.

Also, the veterans that get bought out or waived, all look for situations like that. For example, Chris "Birdman" Andersen. He was under investigation by the police for some crime, and Denver waived him. Three teams went after him, but he said "Miami is my #1" and signed a couple of 10-day contracts with Miami. Didn't even get a full contract until after the second 10-day contract, but Birdman wanted to play in Miami and ignored other better offers. Miami then went on a 27 game win streak with him. He chose Miami, again, because every player wants to put themselves into situations like that.


The Heat were also able to get guys like Mike Bibby when they got bought out. And Rashard Lewis. These guys got bought out by their teams, and then chose to take vet minimums to play for Miami and get a ring and rehab their career by having everyone see them play on the big stage. Wade used to call Rashard Lewis "two checks" in the locker room, because he was getting paid by his former team, and also the Heat.


Then, also, even when you have no money, you still get the Mid-Level Exception I believe, the MLE, which at the time back then was around $5 mil or so? Which was enough to get us to convince Shane Battier to take a discount and come play for the Heat. And he agreed, and took less money to come play a significant role on a championship team.


It happened with the Warriors too. "The Rich get Richer" syndrome.

Thanks for the further insight. If the Knicks truly land KD and Kyrie its pretty clear at this point going for the 3rd max (ideally AD) is the way to go.

[KnixinSix]

Yea Davis is gonna cost us a Herschel walker type load. I legit don't know if he's worth all that. Yes he's a great player that would get us in the playoffs, but does the combination of him kd and Irving make us contenders or pretenders? If its the latter, then he's obviously not worth all that.

In what world is a team with KD , AD ,and Kyrie with a vet role player bench and a couple likely ring chasers a pretender?

[HEZI]

We need to stop looking for saviors. Neither KD nor AD will save this franchise.

We do need to hold this front office accountable for their draft picks. The fact that Steve Mills and Scott Perry are committed to building the right way and not trading draft picks is a major step in the right direction and I applaud them. But the only way to build a contender in a way that is sustainable and also rewarding is to hit on our draft picks. No more Kevin Knox and Frank Ntilikina. Having the right approach is great but it is not enough.

Also, if KD or AD want to come as free agents, awesome, but we should not expect them to lead us to the promised land or we're setting ourselves up for disappointment.

I don't get it, what do you mean stop looking for saviors? You mean through free agenc and trades? Because that's literrally what people are praying for in the draft, a savior. Doncic, Zion, etc.

What's funny is that if the player being discussed is Luka Doncic, how many people would have thrown everything and the kitchen sink at a trade to land him? The thing is people want some fantasy of a 10 year dynasty that is going to compete for a loooong period of time and thats why they want youth but they ignore the entire process that comes with it. 26 year olds are now looked at as geezers and 19 year olds are prized possessions but people don't want to be real about the possibility of not even being in position to put a good enough team around those 19 year old until they are basically 24/25 years of age and no longer on their rookie scale contract.

It was only a couple years ago that AD was considered as one of the best young players to build a franchise around and now he's not even a top 10 player anymore? Crazy

Every championship team since the early 80s with the exception of the 2004 Pistons had a homegrown player as their foundationial piece. Building a team around a bunch of mercenaries for me is like building on quicksand. If you want to go against 40 years of evidence, more power to you.

I don't see AD as a guy who can lead a team to a championship anyway, for whatever it's worth. He's a fringe top 10 player to me, in the 8 to 12 range. And again, I'm not against signing him as a free agent, but I think trading for him would be a huge mistake that will set back this franchise another 5 to 10 years.

This means nothing. We are in a new era when it comes to the league. The way players are demanding trades and forming alliances is a new trend for the league. Players aren't willing to waste their careers waiting for owners and front offices to build teams around them and are forming alliances on their own. That's not something the Knicks are looking to exploit that's something all teams are looking to exploit.

None if this homegrown stuff will matter when the team is playing good, nobody will care. Just like the Raptors dont care whether or not Kawhi is homegrown, the things he's doing for their franchise is far greater than any homegrown player has ever done for them. Ask them if they would give up everybody else on their roster just to keep Kawhi there. I can promise you nobody will even remember the names of our young players when we are balling in the playoffs.

[Jeff Van Gully]

The Alaskan Assassin Trajan Langdon is gonna put the Duke Empire together in NO. So long as KD or Kawhi want to come to NY and bring a friend, we can help each other out. Lol

[Jeff Van Gully]

We need to stop looking for saviors. Neither KD nor AD will save this franchise.

We do need to hold this front office accountable for their draft picks. The fact that Steve Mills and Scott Perry are committed to building the right way and not trading draft picks is a major step in the right direction and I applaud them. But the only way to build a contender in a way that is sustainable and also rewarding is to hit on our draft picks. No more Kevin Knox and Frank Ntilikina. Having the right approach is great but it is not enough.

Also, if KD or AD want to come as free agents, awesome, but we should not expect them to lead us to the promised land or we're setting ourselves up for disappointment.

I can definitely feel where you're coming from.

As a long time suffering Dolphins fan... we expect everything to go wrong too.


But you guys have a real shot at a dynasty here. I'm supposed to hate the Knicks, but those 1990s rivalries are long gone now, and I'd like to see the Knicks come back into relevance.

Honestly, nothing but respect from them wars. I long for the days, really.

[Clyde_Style]

We need to stop looking for saviors. Neither KD nor AD will save this franchise.

We do need to hold this front office accountable for their draft picks. The fact that Steve Mills and Scott Perry are committed to building the right way and not trading draft picks is a major step in the right direction and I applaud them. But the only way to build a contender in a way that is sustainable and also rewarding is to hit on our draft picks. No more Kevin Knox and Frank Ntilikina. Having the right approach is great but it is not enough.

Also, if KD or AD want to come as free agents, awesome, but we should not expect them to lead us to the promised land or we're setting ourselves up for disappointment.

I don't get it, what do you mean stop looking for saviors? You mean through free agenc and trades? Because that's literrally what people are praying for in the draft, a savior. Doncic, Zion, etc.

What's funny is that if the player being discussed is Luka Doncic, how many people would have thrown everything and the kitchen sink at a trade to land him? The thing is people want some fantasy of a 10 year dynasty that is going to compete for a loooong period of time and thats why they want youth but they ignore the entire process that comes with it. 26 year olds are now looked at as geezers and 19 year olds are prized possessions but people don't want to be real about the possibility of not even being in position to put a good enough team around those 19 year old until they are basically 24/25 years of age and no longer on their rookie scale contract.

It was only a couple years ago that AD was considered as one of the best young players to build a franchise around and now he's not even a top 10 player anymore? Crazy

Every championship team since the early 80s with the exception of the 2004 Pistons had a homegrown player as their foundationial piece. Building a team around a bunch of mercenaries for me is like building on quicksand. If you want to go against 40 years of evidence, more power to you.

I don't see AD as a guy who can lead a team to a championship anyway, for whatever it's worth. He's a fringe top 10 player to me, in the 8 to 12 range. And again, I'm not against signing him as a free agent, but I think trading for him would be a huge mistake that will set back this franchise another 5 to 10 years.

Yes

I see lots of attempts to avoid the truth that pretty much every championship team for a very long time drafted their primary star and oftentimes their second star too.

Trading for AD is not even close in impact to signing him as a FA.

People cloud the reality constantly by ignoring the past while simultaneously spouting lines like "this is a superstar league" as if that defuses the logic of reality.

Those superstars are homegrown most of the time.

The Heat had one homegrown star and signed two. Anyone who compares today's situation to the Heat is really out of touch. We don't have any chance of replicating the Heat scenario which put together players in their primes without injury histories.

The reality is you always have champions with home grown cores first.

GS (Very Homegrown)
SA (Very Homegrown)
Lakers (Kobe)
Mavs (Dirk)

and you have one-offs with

Celtics (Pierce was home-grown first)
Heat v.1 (Wade was home-grown first, Shaq was added)
Cavs (Lebron returned, but was originally drafted by them)

and even with the Heat super team

Heat v. 2 (Wade was home-grown, Lebron and Bosh were added)

and even the Pistons were homegrown. And they count too. People like to pretend they had no stars, but that's nonsense. They were a loaded team that stayed in contention for years and they drafted their players mostly as well

NOT ONCE IN THE PAST 20 YEARS Has any team won the championship without first having a star they drafted and then added to. NOT ONE