Draft Thread: Knicks got #3 - Combine and Beyond

[Richard4444]

I don't get it, what do you mean stop looking for saviors? You mean through free agenc and trades? Because that's literrally what people are praying for in the draft, a savior. Doncic, Zion, etc.

What's funny is that if the player being discussed is Luka Doncic, how many people would have thrown everything and the kitchen sink at a trade to land him? The thing is people want some fantasy of a 10 year dynasty that is going to compete for a loooong period of time and thats why they want youth but they ignore the entire process that comes with it. 26 year olds are now looked at as geezers and 19 year olds are prized possessions but people don't want to be real about the possibility of not even being in position to put a good enough team around those 19 year old until they are basically 24/25 years of age and no longer on their rookie scale contract.

It was only a couple years ago that AD was considered as one of the best young players to build a franchise around and now he's not even a top 10 player anymore? Crazy

Every championship team since the early 80s with the exception of the 2004 Pistons had a homegrown player as their foundationial piece. Building a team around a bunch of mercenaries for me is like building on quicksand. If you want to go against 40 years of evidence, more power to you.

I don't see AD as a guy who can lead a team to a championship anyway, for whatever it's worth. He's a fringe top 10 player to me, in the 8 to 12 range. And again, I'm not against signing him as a free agent, but I think trading for him would be a huge mistake that will set back this franchise another 5 to 10 years.

Yes

I see lots of attempts to avoid the truth that pretty much every championship team for a very long time drafted their primary star and oftentimes their second star too.

Trading for AD is not even close in impact to signing him as a FA.

People cloud the reality constantly by ignoring the past while simultaneously spouting lines like "this is a superstar league" as if that defuses the logic of reality.

Those superstars are homegrown most of the time.

The Heat had one homegrown star and signed two. Anyone who compares today's situation to the Heat is really out of touch. We don't have any chance of replicating the Heat scenario which put together players in their primes without injury histories.

The reality is you always have champions with home grown cores first.

GS (Very Homegrown)
SA (Very Homegrown)
Lakers (Kobe)
Mavs (Dirk)

and you have one-offs with

Celtics (Pierce was home-grown first)
Heat v.1 (Wade was home-grown first, Shaq was added)
Cavs (Lebron returned, but was originally drafted by them)

and even with the Heat super team

Heat v. 2 (Wade was home-grown, Lebron and Bosh were added)

and even the Pistons were homegrown. And they count too. People like to pretend they had no stars, but that's nonsense. They were a loaded team that stayed in contention for years and they drafted their players mostly as well

NOT ONCE IN THE PAST 20 YEARS Has any team won the championship without first having a star they drafted and then added to. NOT ONE

Anytime is the recenti history of the NBA, a team got 2 superstars at Free Agency and trade for a third superstar? I think it is an unique situation.

But I agree that with 3 superstars and 90% of Cap Space invested in them, it will be difficult do build a competitive roster.

[Thugger HBC]

I saw the list Thug...and I'm not comfortable with the list and the total games played. Nor am I comfortable with the fact that
his talent says he's arguable the best player in the league but in the context of his career he doesn't have much to show for it...

As far as Alpha- I'll use myself as an example- I can lead or play team ball but will take and make the big shot without question.
I play with no fear in whatever I do and I have confidence in myself and can go to war if need be or can be peaceful if need be...

AD, as big as he is let Kyke O Q push him into the stand and did nothing and looked like he was uncomfortable...

An Alpha is the combination of the above to me...

I can assure you the only Alpha on GS is Draymond. It's not about who makes and takes big shots, or who is scared or not, who's actually scared on an NBA court? If that's the case Steve Kerr was Alpha for the Bulls back in the 90's.

Dray said it best recently......"I can be wide open, Klay could be partially open, I'm passing because his shot is better than my shot".

Over the years people have learned about GS, the team goes where Dray goes. Not about being best, but being the processor. An entire season got lost when Dray went rogue. Nobody on the team could overcome that, but they should have if they were so much better. he has a role no one else on the team can fill. That's your alpha.

Yeah, we're talking about two different things... You are talking about who's the alpha dog among the group- yes its Dray...
I guess I should have used "dog" instead...AD has no "dog" in him...Curry, Klay, Iggy, Livingston, Bogut and KD all have dog in them-
thats what I meant...

I'm talking about Alpha, plain and simple. I've already described it for you.

Now lets get back to Davis being injury prone. To me injury prone is a player who misses considerable time every season due to injury.

That's not Davis.

[Clyde_Style]

Kyrie is the only injury prone guy in the group. y'all being real loose with the "injury prone" term.

AD is not injury prone? Surely you jest

And KD is currently sitting out the playoffs right before he is supposed to ride in on his horse and save us. The guy is entering his 30s so current injury aside, yes, the probabilities of KD being injured in the future is automatically increased

All three put together = very little chance of ever seeing them all at full strength to win a ring

[N Y K]

BTW, Frank trade gets us what?

None of these seem that appealing, except maybe a two pick scenario...

https://dailyknicks.com/2019/05/19/new-york-knicks-frank-ntilikina-fit-teams-rumored-asking-price/2/

[Clyde_Style]

Every championship team since the early 80s with the exception of the 2004 Pistons had a homegrown player as their foundationial piece. Building a team around a bunch of mercenaries for me is like building on quicksand. If you want to go against 40 years of evidence, more power to you.

I don't see AD as a guy who can lead a team to a championship anyway, for whatever it's worth. He's a fringe top 10 player to me, in the 8 to 12 range. And again, I'm not against signing him as a free agent, but I think trading for him would be a huge mistake that will set back this franchise another 5 to 10 years.

Yes

I see lots of attempts to avoid the truth that pretty much every championship team for a very long time drafted their primary star and oftentimes their second star too.

Trading for AD is not even close in impact to signing him as a FA.

People cloud the reality constantly by ignoring the past while simultaneously spouting lines like "this is a superstar league" as if that defuses the logic of reality.

Those superstars are homegrown most of the time.

The Heat had one homegrown star and signed two. Anyone who compares today's situation to the Heat is really out of touch. We don't have any chance of replicating the Heat scenario which put together players in their primes without injury histories.

The reality is you always have champions with home grown cores first.

GS (Very Homegrown)
SA (Very Homegrown)
Lakers (Kobe)
Mavs (Dirk)

and you have one-offs with

Celtics (Pierce was home-grown first)
Heat v.1 (Wade was home-grown first, Shaq was added)
Cavs (Lebron returned, but was originally drafted by them)

and even with the Heat super team

Heat v. 2 (Wade was home-grown, Lebron and Bosh were added)

and even the Pistons were homegrown. And they count too. People like to pretend they had no stars, but that's nonsense. They were a loaded team that stayed in contention for years and they drafted their players mostly as well

NOT ONCE IN THE PAST 20 YEARS Has any team won the championship without first having a star they drafted and then added to. NOT ONE

Anytime is the recenti history of the NBA, a team got 2 superstars at Free Agency and trade for a third superstar? I think it is an unique situation.

But I agree that with 3 superstars and 90% of Cap Space invested in them, it will be difficult do build a competitive roster.

It would be strictly a gamble at best.

I'm just trying to debunk this nonsense they would guarantee our success if we gutted everything to accommodate them.

Yes, it would be very hard to acquire the additional talent needed to support them if you trade away your players and picks.

[K_ick_God]

Tacko has a crazy brother named Wacko who will act as his agent and personal concierge.

[HEZI]

We're probably headed down the road of oblivion.

Ignore at your own peril the likelihood of NEVER fielding all of your shiny max cats at the same time late in the playoffs due to the very high probability not all of them will be able to stay healthy for a whole season at the same time.

AD can't play in these playoffs and he's about to become a Knicks savior.
Kyrie is brittle as fck
AD is an injury machine

Yeah, good luck with that.

We'll never get close to sniffing a ring if we sign those three and trade away our picks and Mitch to get AD because at any given time one or two of them will sucking on geritol through a sippy cup at Mt. Sinai

I hear you

If we never build a playoff team then we never have to worry about guys getting injured for the playoffs



This has become our security blanket. Suck forever so we can always have an excuse that we are rebuilding and avoid all pressure that comes along with trying to build a team that can actually compete

I effing hate that GIF, so overused and guy looks like a tool while trying to act like he's a big shot know-it-all

Anyway, all I'm saying is yeah, swing for the fences if you want, but I'm saying the probability of success by going all in on three max cats while gutting the rest of the team is so gaddam low as to be pointless. Three max cats with injury issues means GUARANTEED Salary Cap purgatory all over again. I guess the lesson of Amare has faded into the past now and people want to maintain their evergreen fantasies of buying a ring. It won't work.

The probability that Mitch and our third pick become stars are higher than the odds of three injury prone max cats staying healthy enough to contend.

I'm just being straight with you. This 3 injury-prone max cat route has a snowball's chance in hell of succeeding

Yeah you are just pulling stuff out of thin air. Those probabilities are made up sorry Clyde

[Thugger HBC]

[quote="Clyde_Style"]

AD is not injury prone? Surely you jest

And KD is currently sitting out the playoffs right before he is supposed to ride in on his horse and save us. The guy is entering his 30s so current injury aside, yes, the probabilities of KD being injured in the future is automatically increased

All three put together = very little chance of ever seeing them all at full strength to win a ring [/quote]

No, they arent injury prone. Doesn't mean they can't get injured. Any player can. Dennis Smith JR and Frank are both injured too.

[Clyde_Style]

I hear you

If we never build a playoff team then we never have to worry about guys getting injured for the playoffs



This has become our security blanket. Suck forever so we can always have an excuse that we are rebuilding and avoid all pressure that comes along with trying to build a team that can actually compete

I effing hate that GIF, so overused and guy looks like a tool while trying to act like he's a big shot know-it-all

Anyway, all I'm saying is yeah, swing for the fences if you want, but I'm saying the probability of success by going all in on three max cats while gutting the rest of the team is so gaddam low as to be pointless. Three max cats with injury issues means GUARANTEED Salary Cap purgatory all over again. I guess the lesson of Amare has faded into the past now and people want to maintain their evergreen fantasies of buying a ring. It won't work.

The probability that Mitch and our third pick become stars are higher than the odds of three injury prone max cats staying healthy enough to contend.

I'm just being straight with you. This 3 injury-prone max cat route has a snowball's chance in hell of succeeding

Yeah you are just pulling stuff out of thin air. Those probabilities are made up sorry Clyde

It's OK to be crazy Hezi. I won't judge you for it

[Context]

I can assure you the only Alpha on GS is Draymond. It's not about who makes and takes big shots, or who is scared or not, who's actually scared on an NBA court? If that's the case Steve Kerr was Alpha for the Bulls back in the 90's.

Dray said it best recently......"I can be wide open, Klay could be partially open, I'm passing because his shot is better than my shot".

Over the years people have learned about GS, the team goes where Dray goes. Not about being best, but being the processor. An entire season got lost when Dray went rogue. Nobody on the team could overcome that, but they should have if they were so much better. he has a role no one else on the team can fill. That's your alpha.

Yeah, we're talking about two different things... You are talking about who's the alpha dog among the group- yes its Dray...
I guess I should have used "dog" instead...AD has no "dog" in him...Curry, Klay, Iggy, Livingston, Bogut and KD all have dog in them-
thats what I meant...

I'm talking about Alpha, plain and simple. I've already described it for you.

Now lets get back to Davis being injury prone. To me injury prone is a player who misses considerable time every season due to injury.

That's not Davis.

some one please find that list- I want to see if youre comfortable with that but we can agree to disagree on this one because
i dont play when it comes to injury- i would never sign Kyrie...and im not comfortable with AD its as simple as that thug...

[Richard4444]

Aubrey Dawkins. Especially if DSJ and Frank are included in any trades.

We have to build cap room to sign the 55 pick. We are at least 128k short to keep Dotson and Trier. We would need almost U$2M in total extra cap space to sign the 55 pick.

Furthermore if we deal Frank, DSJr, Knox or Trier at draft night, I think we will trade up this 55 pick in the deal.

Thanks. It's tough.
Just thinking if we dont trade for AD, the team as constructed even with KD and Kyrie cant beat the Warriors even if we get that far.
Correct me of wrong but in a couple of years you have young guys coming off their present contracts, only to be filled by higher salaried future 1st round picks. Making keeping the young players difficult anyway.
Am I right?

If ours players have birds rights, we can increase the players salary without Cap Space avaliable.

After this year we will be capped out and we can overpay to keep Frank, DSJr, Knox, Trier and Dotson.

[Jalen Bluntson]

We're probably headed down the road of oblivion.

Ignore at your own peril the likelihood of NEVER fielding all of your shiny max cats at the same time late in the playoffs due to the very high probability not all of them will be able to stay healthy for a whole season at the same time.

AD can't play in these playoffs and he's about to become a Knicks savior.
Kyrie is brittle as fck
AD is an injury machine

Yeah, good luck with that.

We'll never get close to sniffing a ring if we sign those three and trade away our picks and Mitch to get AD because at any given time one or two of them will sucking on geritol through a sippy cup at Mt. Sinai

I hear you

If we never build a playoff team then we never have to worry about guys getting injured for the playoffs



This has become our security blanket. Suck forever so we can always have an excuse that we are rebuilding and avoid all pressure that comes along with trying to build a team that can actually compete

I effing hate that GIF, so overused and guy looks like a tool while trying to act like he's a big shot know-it-all.

Anyway, all I'm saying is yeah, swing for the fences if you want, but I'm saying the probability of success by going all in on three max cats while gutting the rest of the team is so gaddam low as to be pointless. Three max cats with injury issues means GUARANTEED Salary Cap purgatory all over again. I guess the lesson of Amare has faded into the past now and people want to maintain their evergreen fantasies of buying a ring. It won't work.

The probability that Mitch and our third pick become stars are higher than the odds of three injury prone max cats staying healthy enough to contend.

I'm just being straight with you. This 3 injury-prone max cat route has a snowball's chance in hell of succeeding

I agree that gif is annoying. I am not in favor of gutting the team. I don't care for Kyrie. I don't like 31 year old KD. I worry because of past failures.

That said...I also think I sound crazy not wanting Kyrie/KD/AD!! Every team has to worry about injuries. Look at GSW/POR this year. They are in the conference finals. Seems worth the risk to me. Would be brutal if it fails.

Just gotta hope Perry knows what he's doing. He has done well in trades and the draft so far. Has had a solid approach IMO. He hasn't been perfect but...I have trust in him that I haven't had with most...if not all of the GMs under Dolan at this point. This is going to be a crazy summer.

[Thugger HBC]

Yeah, we're talking about two different things... You are talking about who's the alpha dog among the group- yes its Dray...
I guess I should have used "dog" instead...AD has no "dog" in him...Curry, Klay, Iggy, Livingston, Bogut and KD all have dog in them-
thats what I meant...

I'm talking about Alpha, plain and simple. I've already described it for you.

Now lets get back to Davis being injury prone. To me injury prone is a player who misses considerable time every season due to injury.

That's not Davis.

some one please find that list- I want to see if youre comfortable with that but we can agree to disagree on this one because
i dont play when it comes to injury- i would never sign Kyrie...and im not comfortable with AD its as simple as that thug...

I know what list you're referring to, the one where it list his injuries. Most of them he actually returned to the games though.

You act like he's Amare. that's was injury prone.

[Clyde_Style]

AD is not injury prone? Surely you jest

And KD is currently sitting out the playoffs right before he is supposed to ride in on his horse and save us. The guy is entering his 30s so current injury aside, yes, the probabilities of KD being injured in the future is automatically increased

All three put together = very little chance of ever seeing them all at full strength to win a ring

No, they arent injury prone. Doesn't mean they can't get injured. Any player can. Dennis Smith JR and Frank are both injured too.

Anthony Davis Injury History 2013-2017



and 2017-2019


03/25/2019 Back
03/20/2019 Personal
03/08/2019 Back Spasms
03/02/2019 Rest
02/14/2019 Shoulder
01/19/2019 Left Index Finger
01/12/2019 Ankle
01/01/2019 Illness
12/20/2018 Illness
11/24/2018 Right Hip Strain
11/04/2018 Right Elbow Sprain
11/01/2018 Elbow Sprain
10/27/2018 Elbow
03/07/2018 Sore Ankle
01/08/2018 Sore Ankle
12/11/2017 Sore Groin
12/01/2017 Strained Left Groin
11/18/2017 Concussion
10/25/2017 Left Knee Swelling
10/17/2017 Illness

Nah, he isn't injury prone. Come on Thugger, seriously?

[Thugger HBC]

This is Anthony Davis complete injury chart. Notice one outlier.....most of these games he returned to action, and you will notice that by looking at the dates.

[Thugger HBC]

Yall must don't watch the NFL, y'all think everybody was injury prone....lol

[Clyde_Style]

This is Anthony Davis complete injury chart. Notice one outlier.....most of these games he returned to action, and you will notice that by looking at the dates.

Through 2017, I provided a more complete list before your post.

If you think it's nothing then so be it. I think this fan base has for the most part set its sights on buying a super team and I think you'll end up regretting it dearly.

It isn't the first time and apparently it won't be the last.

If you really think these guys are low risk injury wise as a set of three players in a single package, yes I'm mystified at such faith in what to my eyes seems like a completely dodgy scenario. If they do it, then I hope you're right and I'm wrong

[Besart19]

We can trade Lance, Smith, Jordan and Hezonja both sign and trade, both Dallas picks and 2 our unprotected picks for Davis... we have the leverage if AD wants us, cuz they will lose him for nothing just one year later. If they wont like that we wait until 2020. And sign Bojan with the rest of the cap (or MLE)... Meanwhile we send Smith and Hezonja or Lance in a sign and trade for Rubio.

Rubio / Ntilikina / Allen
Barrett / Trier / Jenkins
Bojan / Dotson / Parsons
Durant / Knox / Carmelo
Davis / Robinson / Vonleh

[GONYK]

This is Anthony Davis complete injury chart. Notice one outlier.....most of these games he returned to action, and you will notice that by looking at the dates.

Through 2017, I provided a more complete list before your post.

If you think it's nothing then so be it. I think this fan base has for the most part set its sights on buying a super team and I think you'll end up regretting it dearly.

It isn't the first time and apparently it won't be the last.

If you really think these guys are low risk injury wise as a set of three players in a single package, yes I'm mystified at such faith in what to my eyes seems like a completely dodgy scenario. If they do it, then I hope you're right and I'm wrong

When have the Knicks ever assembled 2 of the top 5 players in the league and 3 of the top 15 players in the league on the same team?

I think it would definitely be the first time.

[DowNY]

Yea Davis is gonna cost us a Herschel walker type load. I legit don't know if he's worth all that. Yes he's a great player that would get us in the playoffs, but does the combination of him kd and Irving make us contenders or pretenders? If its the latter, then he's obviously not worth all that.

In what world is a team with KD , AD ,and Kyrie with a vet role player bench and a couple likely ring chasers a pretender?

Have you seen the rest of the east? Barring a tragic free agent period for them, Sixers, Raptors and Bucks are still better than the above team

You’re assuming Kawhi stays with the Raptors (even with Kawhi the Raptors aren’t better than a Knicks big 3).
You’re assuming Sixers keep Butler and Tobias. (Not looking likely).
You’re assuming Brogdon, Middleton & Lopez stays. (This is most likely but they do not have Lopez’s bird rights and he’s looking to get paid. He leaves and that’s a missing link).