ImageImageImageImage

Listen Everyone...draft TACKO FALL!!

Moderators: Knightro, SOUL, Def Swami, Howard Mass, UCFJayBird, UCF, ChosenSavior

User avatar
tiderulz
RealGM
Posts: 29,027
And1: 10,219
Joined: Jun 16, 2010
Location: Atlanta
 

Re: Listen Everyone...draft TACKO FALL!! 

Post#41 » by tiderulz » Tue May 21, 2019 3:50 pm

pepe1991 wrote:
tiderulz wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:Saw lot of rumors that Zion is not taller than 6'7 , 6'5 without shoes.
That guy is being so damn overhyped this year for somebody who has no true position or basketball skill other than freakish athletic -given weight.

Good luck to doctors on Pelicans, that knees will need lot of miracle work.

never really understand anyone taking into account someone's height without shoes, they dont play basketball barefoot.

Also, the NBA has moved to "positionless" basketball, so who cares if someone doesnt have a "true position". with his athleticism, he has shown the speed to be able to stay in front of SG's/SF's. Draymond Green is 6'7 and can handle PF/C while also defending SF's and doing rim defense against SG's.

And Zion's knee's dont have any issues right now, so doctors on Pelicans only need to work on his diet. And being a 19 yr old, im sure his diet wasnt great, so I expect that to right itself pretty quickly.


Because players go from 6'3 without shoes to 6'6 in shoes ,witch is laughable and flat out lie to make them look better to scouts/GMs/fans.
Would you draft 6'7 center who can't shoot? I would not. That's Biyombo's size at combine . Yet in nba he is listed as 6'9 -6'10.

Basketball will never be positionless because players based on size aquire unique set of skills through their youth. Small players has to rely heavly on his ballhandling and shooting and therfore develops better skills at that, than guy who is 7'0 and can dunk on everybody.

Unicorns do exist, but they are still rare. Despite existence of Durant's and Zingis of the world, most bigs still can't handle the ball or shoot, most bigs don't come off screens and shoot and most small guards don't post up or bang for rebounds. Size and position will always play big factor in sport where target hangs in the air, just like in cycling being fat will never be adventage or in powerlifting skinny legs will never be adventage. It's just born predispositions for things.

because of skill development earlier than before, there are more players that if not positionless, can play multiple positions. Whether its a SF/PF, PF/C, SG/SF, PG/SG. I would disagree that "most bigs cant shoot", we have a lot of bigs now that can shoot as well as a bunch that cant. KAT, Vuc, Lopez, Horford, Gasol, Turner, Dedmon all over 36% and most PF's today can shoot the 3. As for "small guards not posting up or rebounding" that is due to scheme more than anything else.
Bakomagic
Senior
Posts: 652
And1: 399
Joined: Feb 24, 2009

Re: Listen Everyone...draft TACKO FALL!! 

Post#42 » by Bakomagic » Tue May 21, 2019 4:19 pm

pepe1991 wrote:Saw lot of rumors that Zion is not taller than 6'7 , 6'5 without shoes.
That guy is being so damn overhyped this year for somebody who has no true position or basketball skill other than freakish athletic -given weight.

Good luck to doctors on Pelicans, that knees will need lot of miracle work.



No skill... really ? What do you consider a skill outside of shooting ? Do you think he has a loose handle ? Is he not able to make plays for his teammates ? What about defense does he not have good timing or anticipation ?


Projecting forward... do you think he is a bust ? Is he an all star ? Superstar ? Bench role player ? Solid starter ?

Just looking for clarification cuz it sounds like a guy who is undersized, has no skill, and is going to be injury prone is more than likely a bust or energy guy off the bench.

What is your projection of Zion as far as his NBA career ?
MagicFan101
General Manager
Posts: 8,541
And1: 4,771
Joined: Jul 04, 2012
 

Re: Listen Everyone...draft TACKO FALL!! 

Post#43 » by MagicFan101 » Tue May 21, 2019 4:51 pm

Telling me a kid lacks a clear, prototypical position is as influential to me as what color their hair is.
User avatar
j-ragg
RealGM
Posts: 16,708
And1: 10,138
Joined: Mar 31, 2005
Location: the don't re-sign Hedo bandwagon.
   

Re: Listen Everyone...draft TACKO FALL!! 

Post#44 » by j-ragg » Tue May 21, 2019 4:57 pm

Bakomagic wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:Saw lot of rumors that Zion is not taller than 6'7 , 6'5 without shoes.
That guy is being so damn overhyped this year for somebody who has no true position or basketball skill other than freakish athletic -given weight.

Good luck to doctors on Pelicans, that knees will need lot of miracle work.



No skill... really ? What do you consider a skill outside of shooting ? Do you think he has a loose handle ? Is he not able to make plays for his teammates ? What about defense does he not have good timing or anticipation ?


Projecting forward... do you think he is a bust ? Is he an all star ? Superstar ? Bench role player ? Solid starter ?

Just looking for clarification cuz it sounds like a guy who is undersized, has no skill, and is going to be injury prone is more than likely a bust or energy guy off the bench.

What is your projection of Zion as far as his NBA career ?

No skill is hyperbole but I wouldn't say he has a great/above average basketball skill. He has a things like generational athleticism and motor that seem to be how he gets most of his points. His handle is okay, nothing out of the ordinary imo. Jumper doesn't look good at this point mechanics wise, decent passer. I'd still take him #1 because this draft class isn't very good but I don't think he's going to be a superstar or anything. Just my .02, I realize I'm in the minority.
BadMofoPimp wrote:Durant thinks Vooch is one of the Best Centers in the NBA. I will take his word over a couch-GM yelling at a TV.
pepe1991
RealGM
Posts: 10,638
And1: 8,445
Joined: Jan 10, 2016
   

Re: Listen Everyone...draft TACKO FALL!! 

Post#45 » by pepe1991 » Tue May 21, 2019 5:45 pm

tiderulz wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:
tiderulz wrote:never really understand anyone taking into account someone's height without shoes, they dont play basketball barefoot.

Also, the NBA has moved to "positionless" basketball, so who cares if someone doesnt have a "true position". with his athleticism, he has shown the speed to be able to stay in front of SG's/SF's. Draymond Green is 6'7 and can handle PF/C while also defending SF's and doing rim defense against SG's.

And Zion's knee's dont have any issues right now, so doctors on Pelicans only need to work on his diet. And being a 19 yr old, im sure his diet wasnt great, so I expect that to right itself pretty quickly.


Because players go from 6'3 without shoes to 6'6 in shoes ,witch is laughable and flat out lie to make them look better to scouts/GMs/fans.
Would you draft 6'7 center who can't shoot? I would not. That's Biyombo's size at combine . Yet in nba he is listed as 6'9 -6'10.

Basketball will never be positionless because players based on size aquire unique set of skills through their youth. Small players has to rely heavly on his ballhandling and shooting and therfore develops better skills at that, than guy who is 7'0 and can dunk on everybody.

Unicorns do exist, but they are still rare. Despite existence of Durant's and Zingis of the world, most bigs still can't handle the ball or shoot, most bigs don't come off screens and shoot and most small guards don't post up or bang for rebounds. Size and position will always play big factor in sport where target hangs in the air, just like in cycling being fat will never be adventage or in powerlifting skinny legs will never be adventage. It's just born predispositions for things.


because of skill development earlier than before, there are more players that if not positionless, can play multiple positions. Whether its a SF/PF, PF/C, SG/SF, PG/SG. I would disagree that "most bigs cant shoot", we have a lot of bigs now that can shoot as well as a bunch that cant. KAT, Vuc, Lopez, Horford, Gasol, Turner, Dedmon all over 36% and most PF's today can shoot the 3. As for "small guards not posting up or rebounding" that is due to scheme more than anything else.


All players mentioned
KAT, Vuc, Lopez, Horford, Gasol, Turner, Dedmon all

are clear centers who over time developed shot to adjust to modern NBA.
Non of them belongs in "unicorn" category, just players that learned how to hit wide open jumpers. Something that , granted not from 3 point range, guys like Hakeem and David Robinson did 25 years ago.
Turner is opposite end of spectrum ,where he has no post moves whatsoever and struggles to score in general.

Who belongs in unicorn category in nba in your mind? I can only name like 3,4 players like Durant, Zingis,Davis and GIannis. Giannis and Davis will never be mistaken as shooters. Their perimeter bricks are easly the worst shots they take ( Davis ,Giannis both > 40% mid range shooter, below league's average 3point shooters, always left open as defensive design ).
"A straight path never leads anywhere except to the objective."
Andre Gide
pepe1991
RealGM
Posts: 10,638
And1: 8,445
Joined: Jan 10, 2016
   

Re: Listen Everyone...draft TACKO FALL!! 

Post#46 » by pepe1991 » Tue May 21, 2019 6:18 pm

Bakomagic wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:Saw lot of rumors that Zion is not taller than 6'7 , 6'5 without shoes.
That guy is being so damn overhyped this year for somebody who has no true position or basketball skill other than freakish athletic -given weight.

Good luck to doctors on Pelicans, that knees will need lot of miracle work.



No skill... really ? What do you consider a skill outside of shooting ? Do you think he has a loose handle ? Is he not able to make plays for his teammates ? What about defense does he not have good timing or anticipation ?


Projecting forward... do you think he is a bust ? Is he an all star ? Superstar ? Bench role player ? Solid starter ?

Just looking for clarification cuz it sounds like a guy who is undersized, has no skill, and is going to be injury prone is more than likely a bust or energy guy off the bench.

What is your projection of Zion as far as his NBA career ?


In my opinion when you evaluate player you have to consider external and internal factors.

External factors:
- no true competition, best player he played against at college was who? Hacimura? That's your 6'8 post up player . Guys at 6'8 in nba are guards nowdays.
- coach . Krzyzewski menaged to make Jah Okafor look like Tim Duncan for one year. Remember when Shelden Williams was 5th overall pick ? Guess who coached him? He also squeezed most he could from Winslow. Even Ingram, in hindsight, was overdrafted at 2#.
- stacking odds in their favor. 13 of their games were blowouts. Witch is actually not true, i only counted +20 games as blowouts.
3 out of their starting 5 players are projected to be drafted within top 7 picks. Never happend in history.
- Stat padding. Countless of Ws by 30 where him , RJ and Reddish were logging 33-35 min.

Internal factors
Size ( 6'5 without shoes ) . Not ideal for any position but guards.
Weight ( 280 ) ,scary. Makes him human tank, but human body is not made to carry all that weight around ,even if it's all muscles.
Shooting mechanics. Pretty much broken. Can't make any shots with any consistency.
He scores by just going through this kids, it's almost unfair. But he won't be able to go through nba centers and bigs that easly. Not to mention their superior lenght compared to college kids.

On flip side he is one of most athletic players ever for that size and he could get himself in better playing shape (260 ??) and still be super strong.

In my opinoin he will be allstar , double double machine. 20-12 guy . But all this Lebron comparisons? I just don't see superstar. I see player with potential to be great allstar ( if he can develop basketball skills) but that's it. Blake Griffin -lite. But also if injuries strike him early, he could easly end up being Boris Diaw ( story about his vertical is epic,both parents were athletes i think ) ,yet flat out lazy, fat and loved his McDonalds more than anything :lol:
"A straight path never leads anywhere except to the objective."
Andre Gide
User avatar
tiderulz
RealGM
Posts: 29,027
And1: 10,219
Joined: Jun 16, 2010
Location: Atlanta
 

Re: Listen Everyone...draft TACKO FALL!! 

Post#47 » by tiderulz » Tue May 21, 2019 6:24 pm

pepe1991 wrote:
tiderulz wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:
Because players go from 6'3 without shoes to 6'6 in shoes ,witch is laughable and flat out lie to make them look better to scouts/GMs/fans.
Would you draft 6'7 center who can't shoot? I would not. That's Biyombo's size at combine . Yet in nba he is listed as 6'9 -6'10.

Basketball will never be positionless because players based on size aquire unique set of skills through their youth. Small players has to rely heavly on his ballhandling and shooting and therfore develops better skills at that, than guy who is 7'0 and can dunk on everybody.

Unicorns do exist, but they are still rare. Despite existence of Durant's and Zingis of the world, most bigs still can't handle the ball or shoot, most bigs don't come off screens and shoot and most small guards don't post up or bang for rebounds. Size and position will always play big factor in sport where target hangs in the air, just like in cycling being fat will never be adventage or in powerlifting skinny legs will never be adventage. It's just born predispositions for things.


because of skill development earlier than before, there are more players that if not positionless, can play multiple positions. Whether its a SF/PF, PF/C, SG/SF, PG/SG. I would disagree that "most bigs cant shoot", we have a lot of bigs now that can shoot as well as a bunch that cant. KAT, Vuc, Lopez, Horford, Gasol, Turner, Dedmon all over 36% and most PF's today can shoot the 3. As for "small guards not posting up or rebounding" that is due to scheme more than anything else.


All players mentioned
KAT, Vuc, Lopez, Horford, Gasol, Turner, Dedmon all

are clear centers who over time developed shot to adjust to modern NBA.
Non of them belongs in "unicorn" category, just players that learned how to hit wide open jumpers. Something that , granted not from 3 point range, guys like Hakeem and David Robinson did 25 years ago.
Turner is opposite end of spectrum ,where he has no post moves whatsoever and struggles to score in general.

Who belongs in unicorn category in nba in your mind? I can only name like 3,4 players like Durant, Zingis,Davis and GIannis. Giannis and Davis will never be mistaken as shooters. Their perimeter bricks are easly the worst shots they take ( Davis ,Giannis both > 40% mid range shooter, below league's average 3point shooters, always left open as defensive design ).

I didnt call any of them unicorns. Just that the requirements for bigs has changed. Used to be Ewing, Smits, Mahorn, Olajuwon, Shaq. You had a beast down low, bangin in the key and on the boards. That isnt needed anymore, thus they are developing more "skills". Turner struggles to score? he is putting up close to what Horford did his 4th year.

You dont need a "unicorn" for your team to win. What unicorn does Toronto have? Philly? they have good to great players at their positions. Where did the unicorns land without the right cast? OKC made finals once and imploded. NY with Zingis, NY traded him. Davis? never made conference finals. Giannis now has probably the best supporting casts in the NBA, thus winning without him scoring much at all.
User avatar
tiderulz
RealGM
Posts: 29,027
And1: 10,219
Joined: Jun 16, 2010
Location: Atlanta
 

Re: Listen Everyone...draft TACKO FALL!! 

Post#48 » by tiderulz » Tue May 21, 2019 6:28 pm

pepe1991 wrote:
Bakomagic wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:Saw lot of rumors that Zion is not taller than 6'7 , 6'5 without shoes.
That guy is being so damn overhyped this year for somebody who has no true position or basketball skill other than freakish athletic -given weight.

Good luck to doctors on Pelicans, that knees will need lot of miracle work.



No skill... really ? What do you consider a skill outside of shooting ? Do you think he has a loose handle ? Is he not able to make plays for his teammates ? What about defense does he not have good timing or anticipation ?


Projecting forward... do you think he is a bust ? Is he an all star ? Superstar ? Bench role player ? Solid starter ?

Just looking for clarification cuz it sounds like a guy who is undersized, has no skill, and is going to be injury prone is more than likely a bust or energy guy off the bench.

What is your projection of Zion as far as his NBA career ?


In my opinion when you evaluate player you have to consider external and internal factors.

External factors:
- no true competition, best player he played against at college was who? Hacimura? That's your 6'8 post up player . Guys at 6'8 in nba are guards nowdays.
- coach . Krzyzewski menaged to make Jah Okafor look like Tim Duncan for one year. Remember when Shelden Williams was 5th overall pick ? Guess who coached him? He also squeezed most he could from Winslow. Even Ingram, in hindsight, was overdrafted at 2#.
- stacking odds in their favor. 13 of their games were blowouts. Witch is actually not true, i only counted +20 games as blowouts.
3 out of their starting 5 players are projected to be drafted within top 7 picks. Never happend in history.
- Stat padding. Countless of Ws by 30 where him , RJ and Reddish were logging 33-35 min.

Internal factors
Size ( 6'5 without shoes ) . Not ideal for any position but guards.
Weight ( 280 ) ,scary. Makes him human tank, but human body is not made to carry all that weight around ,even if it's all muscles.
Shooting mechanics. Pretty much broken. Can't make any shots with any consistency.
He scores by just going through this kids, it's almost unfair. But he won't be able to go through nba centers and bigs that easly. Not to mention their superior lenght compared to college kids.

On flip side he is one of most athletic players ever for that size and he could get himself in better playing shape (260 ??) and still be super strong.

In my opinoin he will be allstar , double double machine. 20-12 guy . But all this Lebron comparisons? I just don't see superstar. I see player with potential to be great allstar ( if he can develop basketball skills) but that's it. Blake Griffin -lite. But also if injuries strike him early, he could easly end up being Boris Diaw ( story about his vertical is epic,both parents were athletes i think ) ,yet flat out lazy, fat and loved his McDonalds more than anything :lol:

again, until they play barefoot, this measurement really doesnt matter. 280 lbs could be problematic, we have to see what happens with him working with an NBA team, dietician, etc. and now you call his shooting broken? you are just nitpicking a player. a lot of athletic high school kids come in not the greatest shooters. the kid can flat out score, just remains to be seen how he does against some bigger competition. but he comes in with the highest level of athleticism.
pepe1991
RealGM
Posts: 10,638
And1: 8,445
Joined: Jan 10, 2016
   

Re: Listen Everyone...draft TACKO FALL!! 

Post#49 » by pepe1991 » Tue May 21, 2019 6:42 pm

tiderulz wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:
tiderulz wrote:
because of skill development earlier than before, there are more players that if not positionless, can play multiple positions. Whether its a SF/PF, PF/C, SG/SF, PG/SG. I would disagree that "most bigs cant shoot", we have a lot of bigs now that can shoot as well as a bunch that cant. KAT, Vuc, Lopez, Horford, Gasol, Turner, Dedmon all over 36% and most PF's today can shoot the 3. As for "small guards not posting up or rebounding" that is due to scheme more than anything else.


All players mentioned
KAT, Vuc, Lopez, Horford, Gasol, Turner, Dedmon all

are clear centers who over time developed shot to adjust to modern NBA.
Non of them belongs in "unicorn" category, just players that learned how to hit wide open jumpers. Something that , granted not from 3 point range, guys like Hakeem and David Robinson did 25 years ago.
Turner is opposite end of spectrum ,where he has no post moves whatsoever and struggles to score in general.

Who belongs in unicorn category in nba in your mind? I can only name like 3,4 players like Durant, Zingis,Davis and GIannis. Giannis and Davis will never be mistaken as shooters. Their perimeter bricks are easly the worst shots they take ( Davis ,Giannis both > 40% mid range shooter, below league's average 3point shooters, always left open as defensive design ).

I didnt call any of them unicorns. Just that the requirements for bigs has changed. Used to be Ewing, Smits, Mahorn, Olajuwon, Shaq. You had a beast down low, bangin in the key and on the boards. That isnt needed anymore, thus they are developing more "skills". Turner struggles to score? he is putting up close to what Horford did his 4th year.

You dont need a "unicorn" for your team to win. What unicorn does Toronto have? Philly? they have good to great players at their positions. Where did the unicorns land without the right cast? OKC made finals once and imploded. NY with Zingis, NY traded him. Davis? never made conference finals. Giannis now has probably the best supporting casts in the NBA, thus winning without him scoring much at all.


My point is that unicorns are not needed, that's why whole "positionless basketball" is garbage theory to me...
"A straight path never leads anywhere except to the objective."
Andre Gide
User avatar
tiderulz
RealGM
Posts: 29,027
And1: 10,219
Joined: Jun 16, 2010
Location: Atlanta
 

Re: Listen Everyone...draft TACKO FALL!! 

Post#50 » by tiderulz » Tue May 21, 2019 6:45 pm

pepe1991 wrote:
tiderulz wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:
All players mentioned
are clear centers who over time developed shot to adjust to modern NBA.
Non of them belongs in "unicorn" category, just players that learned how to hit wide open jumpers. Something that , granted not from 3 point range, guys like Hakeem and David Robinson did 25 years ago.
Turner is opposite end of spectrum ,where he has no post moves whatsoever and struggles to score in general.

Who belongs in unicorn category in nba in your mind? I can only name like 3,4 players like Durant, Zingis,Davis and GIannis. Giannis and Davis will never be mistaken as shooters. Their perimeter bricks are easly the worst shots they take ( Davis ,Giannis both > 40% mid range shooter, below league's average 3point shooters, always left open as defensive design ).

I didnt call any of them unicorns. Just that the requirements for bigs has changed. Used to be Ewing, Smits, Mahorn, Olajuwon, Shaq. You had a beast down low, bangin in the key and on the boards. That isnt needed anymore, thus they are developing more "skills". Turner struggles to score? he is putting up close to what Horford did his 4th year.

You dont need a "unicorn" for your team to win. What unicorn does Toronto have? Philly? they have good to great players at their positions. Where did the unicorns land without the right cast? OKC made finals once and imploded. NY with Zingis, NY traded him. Davis? never made conference finals. Giannis now has probably the best supporting casts in the NBA, thus winning without him scoring much at all.


My point is that unicorns are not needed, that's why whole "positionless basketball" is garbage theory to me...

and yet ,you have a lot of players in the league that can play multiple positions.
pepe1991
RealGM
Posts: 10,638
And1: 8,445
Joined: Jan 10, 2016
   

Re: Listen Everyone...draft TACKO FALL!! 

Post#51 » by pepe1991 » Tue May 21, 2019 6:47 pm

tiderulz wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:
Bakomagic wrote:

No skill... really ? What do you consider a skill outside of shooting ? Do you think he has a loose handle ? Is he not able to make plays for his teammates ? What about defense does he not have good timing or anticipation ?


Projecting forward... do you think he is a bust ? Is he an all star ? Superstar ? Bench role player ? Solid starter ?

Just looking for clarification cuz it sounds like a guy who is undersized, has no skill, and is going to be injury prone is more than likely a bust or energy guy off the bench.

What is your projection of Zion as far as his NBA career ?


In my opinion when you evaluate player you have to consider external and internal factors.

External factors:
- no true competition, best player he played against at college was who? Hacimura? That's your 6'8 post up player . Guys at 6'8 in nba are guards nowdays.
- coach . Krzyzewski menaged to make Jah Okafor look like Tim Duncan for one year. Remember when Shelden Williams was 5th overall pick ? Guess who coached him? He also squeezed most he could from Winslow. Even Ingram, in hindsight, was overdrafted at 2#.
- stacking odds in their favor. 13 of their games were blowouts. Witch is actually not true, i only counted +20 games as blowouts.
3 out of their starting 5 players are projected to be drafted within top 7 picks. Never happend in history.
- Stat padding. Countless of Ws by 30 where him , RJ and Reddish were logging 33-35 min.

Internal factors
Size ( 6'5 without shoes ) . Not ideal for any position but guards.
Weight ( 280 ) ,scary. Makes him human tank, but human body is not made to carry all that weight around ,even if it's all muscles.
Shooting mechanics. Pretty much broken. Can't make any shots with any consistency.
He scores by just going through this kids, it's almost unfair. But he won't be able to go through nba centers and bigs that easly. Not to mention their superior lenght compared to college kids.

On flip side he is one of most athletic players ever for that size and he could get himself in better playing shape (260 ??) and still be super strong.

In my opinoin he will be allstar , double double machine. 20-12 guy . But all this Lebron comparisons? I just don't see superstar. I see player with potential to be great allstar ( if he can develop basketball skills) but that's it. Blake Griffin -lite. But also if injuries strike him early, he could easly end up being Boris Diaw ( story about his vertical is epic,both parents were athletes i think ) ,yet flat out lazy, fat and loved his McDonalds more than anything :lol:

again, until they play barefoot, this measurement really doesnt matter. 280 lbs could be problematic, we have to see what happens with him working with an NBA team, dietician, etc. and now you call his shooting broken? you are just nitpicking a player. a lot of athletic high school kids come in not the greatest shooters. the kid can flat out score, just remains to be seen how he does against some bigger competition. but he comes in with the highest level of athleticism.


They don't play barefoot but they lie about their actual size. And measured without shoes is more objective and less biased. It's impossible that 6'5 player is 6'8 in shoes, yet every year we saw that type of anomaly ( just like that kid at NFL combined was reported at 1,5% bodyfat, witch would make him... dead).

His shooting mechanics are pretty terrible. He shot around 36% outside paint. That is terrible.
As for my nitpicking, it is. But guy is going to be 1# pick so you should nitpick.

As for a record ,remember who was first guy here who said Lonzo Ball can't shoot because his mechainics are horrendus? Yep, it was me. ( now ofc, you can bring TRAAEEE , but he went from " New Curry " to new iverson fast and still shot below 34% for 3 in nba during rookie season, witch was my prediction , granted he is better than Jennings :lol: ).
"A straight path never leads anywhere except to the objective."
Andre Gide
User avatar
tiderulz
RealGM
Posts: 29,027
And1: 10,219
Joined: Jun 16, 2010
Location: Atlanta
 

Re: Listen Everyone...draft TACKO FALL!! 

Post#52 » by tiderulz » Tue May 21, 2019 6:59 pm

pepe1991 wrote:
tiderulz wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:
In my opinion when you evaluate player you have to consider external and internal factors.

External factors:
- no true competition, best player he played against at college was who? Hacimura? That's your 6'8 post up player . Guys at 6'8 in nba are guards nowdays.
- coach . Krzyzewski menaged to make Jah Okafor look like Tim Duncan for one year. Remember when Shelden Williams was 5th overall pick ? Guess who coached him? He also squeezed most he could from Winslow. Even Ingram, in hindsight, was overdrafted at 2#.
- stacking odds in their favor. 13 of their games were blowouts. Witch is actually not true, i only counted +20 games as blowouts.
3 out of their starting 5 players are projected to be drafted within top 7 picks. Never happend in history.
- Stat padding. Countless of Ws by 30 where him , RJ and Reddish were logging 33-35 min.

Internal factors
Size ( 6'5 without shoes ) . Not ideal for any position but guards.
Weight ( 280 ) ,scary. Makes him human tank, but human body is not made to carry all that weight around ,even if it's all muscles.
Shooting mechanics. Pretty much broken. Can't make any shots with any consistency.
He scores by just going through this kids, it's almost unfair. But he won't be able to go through nba centers and bigs that easly. Not to mention their superior lenght compared to college kids.

On flip side he is one of most athletic players ever for that size and he could get himself in better playing shape (260 ??) and still be super strong.

In my opinoin he will be allstar , double double machine. 20-12 guy . But all this Lebron comparisons? I just don't see superstar. I see player with potential to be great allstar ( if he can develop basketball skills) but that's it. Blake Griffin -lite. But also if injuries strike him early, he could easly end up being Boris Diaw ( story about his vertical is epic,both parents were athletes i think ) ,yet flat out lazy, fat and loved his McDonalds more than anything :lol:

again, until they play barefoot, this measurement really doesnt matter. 280 lbs could be problematic, we have to see what happens with him working with an NBA team, dietician, etc. and now you call his shooting broken? you are just nitpicking a player. a lot of athletic high school kids come in not the greatest shooters. the kid can flat out score, just remains to be seen how he does against some bigger competition. but he comes in with the highest level of athleticism.


They don't play barefoot but they lie about their actual size. And measured without shoes is more objective and less biased. It's impossible that 6'5 player is 6'8 in shoes, yet every year we saw that type of anomaly ( just like that kid at NFL combined was reported at 1,5% bodyfat, witch would make him... dead).

His shooting mechanics are pretty terrible. He shot around 36% outside paint. That is terrible.
As for my nitpicking, it is. But guy is going to be 1# pick so you should nitpick.

As for a record ,remember who was first guy here who said Lonzo Ball can't shoot because his mechainics are horrendus? Yep, it was me. ( now ofc, you can bring TRAAEEE , but he went from " New Curry " to new iverson fast and still shot below 34% for 3 in nba during rookie season, witch was my prediction , granted he is better than Jennings :lol: ).

literally every scout said that Lonzo couldn't shoot, you werent out on a limb with that one.
Blue_and_Whte
RealGM
Posts: 22,276
And1: 7,685
Joined: Jun 26, 2009
Location: Orlando, FL.
     

Re: Listen Everyone...draft TACKO FALL!! 

Post#53 » by Blue_and_Whte » Tue May 21, 2019 7:21 pm

Optimus_Steel wrote:Yea who needs guards???

So which guard at 46 has more potential to immediately impact the game than Fall? I’m mean we could Make the boring safe pick and take a wing that cant do anything because he’s “raw” or take a flier on A 7’5 center that who can probably alter shots in the nba right now. I personally think that would be more entertaining at the very least.
User avatar
tiderulz
RealGM
Posts: 29,027
And1: 10,219
Joined: Jun 16, 2010
Location: Atlanta
 

Re: Listen Everyone...draft TACKO FALL!! 

Post#54 » by tiderulz » Tue May 21, 2019 7:47 pm

Blue_and_Whte wrote:
Optimus_Steel wrote:Yea who needs guards???

So which guard at 46 has more potential to immediately impact the game than Fall? I’m mean we could Make the boring safe pick and take a wing that cant do anything because he’s “raw” or take a flier on A 7’5 center that who can probably alter shots in the nba right now. I personally think that would be more entertaining at the very least.

if we are moving Birch, and probably are, i wouldnt hate Tacko Fall with the 46th pick.
User avatar
Last Guardian
RealGM
Posts: 22,602
And1: 1,985
Joined: Feb 22, 2004
Location: New Jersey
 

Re: Listen Everyone...draft TACKO FALL!! 

Post#55 » by Last Guardian » Tue May 21, 2019 8:31 pm

#16 should be best available offensive player (preferably a guard). We need offense in the worst way. If Tacko is available the next time we pick, then absolutely. Size is still really important especially at C on defense. Would love a Bamba/Fall rotation. But aside from that, we need to add as much offense to this team as we can.
User avatar
CZ Eddie
Rookie
Posts: 1,024
And1: 332
Joined: Jan 30, 2010
Location: Austin, TX
       

Re: Listen Everyone...draft TACKO FALL!! 

Post#56 » by CZ Eddie » Tue May 21, 2019 9:21 pm

I don't want two centers who are carbon copies of each other.
You need three centers.
Your starter. And then a couple guys who are bruisers but fit different game plans.
Match up differently.
This gives you flexibility.
Lived in Orlando eight years. Big time Magic fan. Also lived in Los Angeles, so I'm a Lakers fan. And now in Austin, TX, so I'm a Longhorns fan.
User avatar
j-ragg
RealGM
Posts: 16,708
And1: 10,138
Joined: Mar 31, 2005
Location: the don't re-sign Hedo bandwagon.
   

Re: Listen Everyone...draft TACKO FALL!! 

Post#57 » by j-ragg » Tue May 21, 2019 9:39 pm

People really think this guy will be a rotation player? He’s going to get played off the court in the league. I wanted to love him with him being UCF but I think it’d be a waste of a pick.
BadMofoPimp wrote:Durant thinks Vooch is one of the Best Centers in the NBA. I will take his word over a couch-GM yelling at a TV.
Xatticus
Assistant Coach
Posts: 3,927
And1: 3,807
Joined: Feb 18, 2016
         

Re: Listen Everyone...draft TACKO FALL!! 

Post#58 » by Xatticus » Wed May 22, 2019 12:20 am

tiderulz wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:Saw lot of rumors that Zion is not taller than 6'7 , 6'5 without shoes.
That guy is being so damn overhyped this year for somebody who has no true position or basketball skill other than freakish athletic -given weight.

Good luck to doctors on Pelicans, that knees will need lot of miracle work.

never really understand anyone taking into account someone's height without shoes, they dont play basketball barefoot.

Also, the NBA has moved to "positionless" basketball, so who cares if someone doesnt have a "true position". with his athleticism, he has shown the speed to be able to stay in front of SG's/SF's. Draymond Green is 6'7 and can handle PF/C while also defending SF's and doing rim defense against SG's.

And Zion's knee's dont have any issues right now, so doctors on Pelicans only need to work on his diet. And being a 19 yr old, im sure his diet wasnt great, so I expect that to right itself pretty quickly.


For me it is just the opposite. I don't see any point in measuring someone's height with shoes on. The shoes should provide roughly the same bump for every player.
"Xatticus has always been, in my humble opinion best poster here. Should write articles or something."
-pepe1991
User avatar
BadMofoPimp
RealGM
Posts: 45,796
And1: 10,667
Joined: Oct 12, 2003
Location: In the Paint

Re: Listen Everyone...draft TACKO FALL!! 

Post#59 » by BadMofoPimp » Wed May 22, 2019 12:37 am

pepe1991 wrote:
Bakomagic wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:Saw lot of rumors that Zion is not taller than 6'7 , 6'5 without shoes.
That guy is being so damn overhyped this year for somebody who has no true position or basketball skill other than freakish athletic -given weight.

Good luck to doctors on Pelicans, that knees will need lot of miracle work.



No skill... really ? What do you consider a skill outside of shooting ? Do you think he has a loose handle ? Is he not able to make plays for his teammates ? What about defense does he not have good timing or anticipation ?


Projecting forward... do you think he is a bust ? Is he an all star ? Superstar ? Bench role player ? Solid starter ?

Just looking for clarification cuz it sounds like a guy who is undersized, has no skill, and is going to be injury prone is more than likely a bust or energy guy off the bench.

What is your projection of Zion as far as his NBA career ?


In my opinion when you evaluate player you have to consider external and internal factors.

External factors:
- no true competition, best player he played against at college was who? Hacimura? That's your 6'8 post up player . Guys at 6'8 in nba are guards nowdays.
- coach . Krzyzewski menaged to make Jah Okafor look like Tim Duncan for one year. Remember when Shelden Williams was 5th overall pick ? Guess who coached him? He also squeezed most he could from Winslow. Even Ingram, in hindsight, was overdrafted at 2#.
- stacking odds in their favor. 13 of their games were blowouts. Witch is actually not true, i only counted +20 games as blowouts.
3 out of their starting 5 players are projected to be drafted within top 7 picks. Never happend in history.
- Stat padding. Countless of Ws by 30 where him , RJ and Reddish were logging 33-35 min.

Internal factors
Size ( 6'5 without shoes ) . Not ideal for any position but guards.
Weight ( 280 ) ,scary. Makes him human tank, but human body is not made to carry all that weight around ,even if it's all muscles.
Shooting mechanics. Pretty much broken. Can't make any shots with any consistency.
He scores by just going through this kids, it's almost unfair. But he won't be able to go through nba centers and bigs that easly. Not to mention their superior lenght compared to college kids.

On flip side he is one of most athletic players ever for that size and he could get himself in better playing shape (260 ??) and still be super strong.

In my opinoin he will be allstar , double double machine. 20-12 guy . But all this Lebron comparisons? I just don't see superstar. I see player with potential to be great allstar ( if he can develop basketball skills) but that's it. Blake Griffin -lite. But also if injuries strike him early, he could easly end up being Boris Diaw ( story about his vertical is epic,both parents were athletes i think ) ,yet flat out lazy, fat and loved his McDonalds more than anything :lol:


Think that Zion can be a Draymond Green type player but more suited at PF than Center possibly. Especially, if he can start hitting NBA 3's above 33%.
Image

Provin Ya'll Wrong!!!
pepe1991
RealGM
Posts: 10,638
And1: 8,445
Joined: Jan 10, 2016
   

Re: Listen Everyone...draft TACKO FALL!! 

Post#60 » by pepe1991 » Wed May 22, 2019 6:15 am

Xatticus wrote:
tiderulz wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:Saw lot of rumors that Zion is not taller than 6'7 , 6'5 without shoes.
That guy is being so damn overhyped this year for somebody who has no true position or basketball skill other than freakish athletic -given weight.

Good luck to doctors on Pelicans, that knees will need lot of miracle work.

never really understand anyone taking into account someone's height without shoes, they dont play basketball barefoot.

Also, the NBA has moved to "positionless" basketball, so who cares if someone doesnt have a "true position". with his athleticism, he has shown the speed to be able to stay in front of SG's/SF's. Draymond Green is 6'7 and can handle PF/C while also defending SF's and doing rim defense against SG's.

And Zion's knee's dont have any issues right now, so doctors on Pelicans only need to work on his diet. And being a 19 yr old, im sure his diet wasnt great, so I expect that to right itself pretty quickly.


For me it is just the opposite. I don't see any point in measuring someone's height with shoes on. The shoes should provide roughly the same bump for every player.


This.
I'm without shoes 190 cm ( 6.2335958 feet )
With any basketball shoes i never go over 192 cm -6.299 feet)

Yet this players go from 6'5 without shoes to 6'9 in them, like what do shoes do you wear ?

Image

Size isn't only thing measured at combine that is fishy, bodyfat using dexa scan is all over the place. Guys listed as 3% bodyfat, yet anybody who knows anything about bodybuilding knows that non of them is below 7% at least.

Iwundu allegedly had 4% bodyfat measured at combine

This is 6'7 -200 pounds Iwundu at 4% Image

This is how actually 5% bodyfat looks like Image
So either Iwundu never touched weight in his life and has 10% muscles and everything else is skin and bones, or he simply isn't anywhere near 5%bodyfat . For most athletes going below 8-10% bodyfat is dangerous due injury risk that



DK Metcalf measured at 1,6% bodyfat at combine was probably biggest lie in sports history. ( not to mention that he is 99,999% on HGH and deca or whatever other PEDs )
"A straight path never leads anywhere except to the objective."
Andre Gide

Return to Orlando Magic