Moderators: bwgood77, lilfishi22, Qwigglez
Puff wrote:I hope we keep Jackson and give Monty a chance to work with him. At times Jackson has looked like the real deal. Too soon to give up on him IMO.
Ghost of Kleine wrote:bwgood77 wrote:Ghost of Kleine wrote:
That Would be awesome to be able to get a first round pick for Jackson, But I don't think he currently has that kind of value honestly.
Maybe Bowers could try and fleece his old team for a 2020 first in exchange for Jackson and the Milwaukee pick.........
MaybeIf it came down to it, I think that I'd rather have a first from Detroit, than Milwaukee obviously as The Bucks are easily going to be better than Detroit.
Giving a Detroit pick much hogher value next year.
And then, Once we get screwed over in the lottery again, We can package both picks to move back up???
Jackson won't be that easy to trade. He's certainly not worth a first. We probably would need to trade our pick with him but that lowers the value of the pick.
Agreed, hence why I mentioned trading BOTH Jackson and the Milwaukee pick for Detroit's first next year.
With this package, Detroit gets a slight upgrade over Galloway, and still keeps a first next year. It's basically Detroit swapping their pick with the Milwaukee pick for Jackson, And we get some cap space.
Now I don't know for sure if Bowers could get one over on his old team, because I'm not sure how lousy they are. But I'd still look to some team, preferably with poor front office managment. And try to swing that deal if possible.
bwgood77 wrote:TJ actually improved a bit this year and became more efficient and a 3 level offensive player. JJ arguably got worse outside of 3 pt shooting. Or about the same. Anyway, I know you feel JJ has more value. I doubt it. I think some fans do enjoy flashy inefficient play more than smooth efficient production though.
bwgood77 wrote:TJ actually improved a bit this year and became more efficient and a 3 level offensive player. JJ arguably got worse outside of 3 pt shooting. Or about the same. Anyway, I know you feel JJ has more value. I doubt it. I think some fans do enjoy flashy inefficient play more than smooth efficient production though.
alamin330 wrote:I dont say JJ is untouchable, but to add him with the 6th pick for a regular role player like Brogdon is unnecessary. JJ still has potential and I would bet all 29 teams would want JJ on their team because they believe they'll be able to unlock that potential. That is why I say not to give up on him after 150 games.
bwgood77 wrote:TJ actually improved a bit this year and became more efficient and a 3 level offensive player. JJ arguably got worse outside of 3 pt shooting. Or about the same. Anyway, I know you feel JJ has more value. I doubt it. I think some fans do enjoy flashy inefficient play more than smooth efficient production though.
lilfishi22 wrote:alamin330 wrote:I dont say JJ is untouchable, but to add him with the 6th pick for a regular role player like Brogdon is unnecessary. JJ still has potential and I would bet all 29 teams would want JJ on their team because they believe they'll be able to unlock that potential. That is why I say not to give up on him after 150 games.
I would be very confident in saying that MOST teams wouldn't want JJ on their team. I think less than 10 would take a chance on him and probably less than 5 that actually wants him.
darealjuice wrote:bwgood77 wrote:TJ actually improved a bit this year and became more efficient and a 3 level offensive player. JJ arguably got worse outside of 3 pt shooting. Or about the same. Anyway, I know you feel JJ has more value. I doubt it. I think some fans do enjoy flashy inefficient play more than smooth efficient production though.
I don't think it's true that he got worse. It didn't translate much to the stat sheet, but JJ's ball handling clearly improved, his jump shot improved pretty significantly from mid-range and 3, and he was able to showcase his playmaking more. He turned the ball over more and was awful finishing in the paint, but it isn't unreasonable to think he'll improve if/once he fills out his string bean body. I don't see why people can't still have some hope in him.
Waylay13 wrote:bwgood77 wrote:TJ actually improved a bit this year and became more efficient and a 3 level offensive player. JJ arguably got worse outside of 3 pt shooting. Or about the same. Anyway, I know you feel JJ has more value. I doubt it. I think some fans do enjoy flashy inefficient play more than smooth efficient production though.
Personally i really hate the black hole that is TJ, the lack of effort on both sides and the lack of emotion that he brings to the team. I dont care how many points he scores he is a team killer.
alamin330 wrote:bwgood77 wrote:TJ actually improved a bit this year and became more efficient and a 3 level offensive player. JJ arguably got worse outside of 3 pt shooting. Or about the same. Anyway, I know you feel JJ has more value. I doubt it. I think some fans do enjoy flashy inefficient play more than smooth efficient production though.
He improved his shooting but still doesn't pass, set up teammates, or rebound
bwgood77 wrote:I agree, I don't think he got worse overall, which is why I mentioned outside of 3 pt shooting. But down the stretch he did obviously get better from 3 and a little better with turnovers. Got better down the stretch last year too.
Of course I will have hope for him though. But I don't think you want to give him too many rotation minutes if you are serious about competing at this point unless he is clearly adding value on the court. He did in a few games though.
It will just leave a really bad taste in my mouth if he shows up at the beginning like he did last year again, where it looked like he really hadn't worked at all.
It's just really too bad he struggles so much finishing around the rim when he can get to it so easily. I have a feeling we would prefer to keep Oubre though. And we are almost certainly keeping Bridges.
But given his likely lack of trade value, they may just keep him, but it seems like they'd only do so if they plan on picking up his option.
alamin330 wrote:This is getting strange people. You guys realize you're treating a 22 y/o 2 year experience pro 1 year college raw player like an 8 year pro. He was raw coming out of college and he had a mean streak on and off the court as well. Is it normal to write someone off after only 156 games in the NBA. It doesn't matter about what he did in Miami or on the court the last 2 years with bad coaches and no system. What matters is his attitude going forward, his will to work hard, and how he improves both on and off the court. I believe he improved in some aspects in the 2nd year of his career. He showed flashes of being able to lead his team to victory and play terrific team defense and make correct passes and he's also shown inconsistencies in all those areas just the same. Inconsistency is the difference between a veteran and a young player. With more repetition builds more consistency and confidence. Josh has decent basketball IQ, his problem most times is the execution of what he sees on the court. He is still filling out and is still going to get stronger. That will help him execute the plays he attempts which result in turnovers or bad shots. He has improved his shooting in every category each year. He needs continuity in order to unlock his full potential.
Many of you who are willing to give up on his potential this early in his career and after all the coaching turnover will regret giving him up as a throw in to clear cap space to sign a pg who will be out the league when jackson is killing it in the nba. It also seems these same people severely underrate their own team's roster compared to the rest of team fans around the nba. These same people are also overrating TJ Warren. TJ Warren is a good player. But TJ Warren is not improving the way he should to be a great player. He is one-dimensional. He can only score. He doesn't impact the game any other way. This looks very appealing to these suns fans because there is so limited amount of scoring on the team last year. That doesn't change the fact that TJ is not a team player. This is why Jackson is more valuable than TJ and also why Josh will be the better player when its all said and done. Only player from Josh's draft who has been consistently good and looked like an all-star from start to finish has been donovon mitchell. Tatum has looked ok but he's been inconsistent also. Lonzo Ball has looked equally as a bust but yet some of you guys are willing to trade Josh and the 6 pick for Ball.
bwgood77 wrote:Ghost of Kleine wrote:bwgood77 wrote:
Jackson won't be that easy to trade. He's certainly not worth a first. We probably would need to trade our pick with him but that lowers the value of the pick.
Agreed, hence why I mentioned trading BOTH Jackson and the Milwaukee pick for Detroit's first next year.
With this package, Detroit gets a slight upgrade over Galloway, and still keeps a first next year. It's basically Detroit swapping their pick with the Milwaukee pick for Jackson, And we get some cap space.
Now I don't know for sure if Bowers could get one over on his old team, because I'm not sure how lousy they are. But I'd still look to some team, preferably with poor front office managment. And try to swing that deal if possible.
I know, but you're still talking like he has positive value. That's likely a trade up of 10-15 picks in the first round. I don't think he has that kind of value. He had a negative BPM of -4.8, negative VORP of -1.4....negative net rating of like -23...negative win shares. I don't know why a coach wanting to turn a team around would want him on the team, much less at a cost of $16 million for the next two years.
Now maybe a team that has tons of cap space and doesn't mind rebuilding for a couple of years. I would say a good team that can just develop him on the bench but they usually want to use their money wisely on role players that help, so it might be tough to find a place for him. I just wish they didn't have the rule where you had to pick up team options for the following year before the current year even starts, or right at the beginning of it.
bwgood77 wrote:TJ actually improved a bit this year and became more efficient and a 3 level offensive player. JJ arguably got worse outside of 3 pt shooting. Or about the same. Anyway, I know you feel JJ has more value. I doubt it. I think some fans do enjoy flashy inefficient play more than smooth efficient production though.
WeekapaugGroove wrote:On Warren I don't get the black hole complaint because him shooting is typically a better play than him passing to someone who's more likely to miss. My issue with him is I like Bridges more and I think Oubre is coming back so it's crowded on the wing and he's the least versitle defender of the group. Also I do think there could be some truth to him not wanting to be here anymore and honestly I wouldn't blame him. They have continually brought in other wings since drafting him and I guess they might have messed up with his 'head injury' from a couple years ago and this year there was a general vibe that maybe they didn't see eye to eye on what was up with his ankle. He hates dealing with the media so they don't seem to do him any favors in return and that contributes to a lack of love from a lot of the fan base. Oubre has been here like 6 months and is already more popular in the general fan base than Warren ever was. I expect that might be the case in the locker room too, I don't think he's disliked but I also don't see him as a dude who's super close with a bunch of his teammates either.
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Speculations aside, Warren is excited about Phoenix’s potential next season.
"We’ve got the talent," Warren said. "We’ve got the players. All it’s about is coming together. Building together. Growing together. Josh (Jackson), Kelly (Oubre Jr.) Book (Devin Booker), Tyler (Johnson) D.A. (Deandre Ayton). We have the nucleus to really make some things happen. It’s going to be a big offseason for everybody. Hopefully everybody is going to work, which I know they are."
And Warren plans to do everything he can this summer to avoid another injured-filled one.
“It’s frustrating,” said Warren, who had a right foot fracture in February 2016 which required surgery and cut his second NBA season short as he only played in 47 games.
“It’s part of the league. You can’t predict injuries when they happen, but you’ve just got to take it and try to make sure in preparing your body that it doesn’t happen again. That’s my mindset going into (next) season. Try to have an injury-free season. It’s been tough, but it’s part of it.”
The Suns certainly could’ve used their second-leading scorer who has the ability to drop 30 points at any moment as they finished with their second-worst record ever, but his teammates weren’t pressuring Warren to return.
"I’ll take him, but that’s a decision he has to make, depending on his health," said Booker after Phoenix’s win April 1 over Cleveland. "That’s the most important thing, but him being back on the floor would be a great addition for our team. The games he played, he shot the ball at a very high clip this year and he has that natural scoring ability that takes a lot of pressure off me."
“One thing about me, I can always adapt to anything,” Warren said. “Anything thrown my way, I can rise about it. They needed me to play the four. I showed I can play the four and be effective at it. I can play point guard if needed. My mindset is, I’m too confident in myself not to think that way. Whatever they need me to do, I’m going to be out there.”
Crawford found out firsthand how deeply invested Warren is in basketball.
“He watches basketball all the time,” Crawford said. “He’s a hoops junkie. He studies the game. I’m was shocked by that with him because he’s looked at as just a scorer, but he knows how to make plays. He knows (the) right reads. He knows what makes teams tick. Things of that nature. That was one of the pleasant surprises for me was getting a relationship with him.”