Trae's Defense

[shakes0]

.....he should be better next season. Just his understanding of the team defense should be better, he should get a stronger to fight through screens better. His effort throughout the season has improved.
Early in the season, he played defense for about 6 seconds of a possession, now he plays it for 24 seconds.

Exactly Jaybird, the team defense overall should be better which should make him better as well. Steph doesn't get all those steals for GSW if he doesn't have Klay and Draymond behind him for help. Trae will be able to gamble a little more and get steals eventually once there is confidence in the help coming. I've seen much improvement since the start of the season for both he and Collins.

exactly, once we get some good defenders behind Trae all he has to focus on his staying with his guy through screens and putting as much pressure as he can on them when they take perimeter shots, if guys get by him he'll have guys behind him to help him out and give him the confidence he needs to try and stay as close as he can to guys on the outside.

[_s_t_u_r_t_]

I think it's real simple. His defense will improve when we add some rim protection and some good long wing defenders.

Yeah, can we get Dedmon?

Bazemore?

Wait. I take that back.

When we signed Len, he was considered to be almost the rim protector that Dedmon was.

And Bembry has begun to show some new consistency defensively from game to game.

I don't think this is anyone's problem but Trae's.

So will his defense improve? Probably, just because he'll better recognize what his opponent is trying to do, by virtue of experience and maturity. Intelligence is a big part of being a good defender, and is what allows instincts to be productive. I think... think... Trae has good instincts, but just not the experience yet to make those instincts work sufficiently to his favor.

Also, he'll probably improve because it's fairly typical of all players that they gain some girth as they get beyond 25, and his lack of girth makes him more vulnerable.

What he has going for him is that he's cat quick. He doesn't have to be a steals leader. He just needs to get better at staying in front of his man, and fighting through screens. He has the talent to do the former right now... he will be more capable of the latter as he gains some more physical mass.

If Dedmon and Bazemore are the answer, then me and you are asking totally different questions.

You specified he needs a rim protector behind him.

Huh? Dedmon's not a rim protector?

And... huh?... for that matter, as I pointed out, wasn't Len considered a rim protector before he got here?

So I don't know where you're going with that. Sounds like excuse-making to me, though.

And I'll acknowledge that Bazemore's defense hasn't always been as good as some wanted to promote it as being, but he's generally still regarded as better than average. Bembry, definitely so.

So, again... same... I don't know how one can pretend that Trae's somehow handicapped by others here.

No, he himself is just not a good defender. He does have to get better. And it's not actually about steals so much as it is just the basics of staying in front of your man and fighting through screens and being in the way of the opponent's quarterback being a good conduit for their offense.

[LunchBox21]

Pretty much nobody thinks Trae is going to be a good defender, the discussion is (should be) about building a team to mitigate the effect of his poor defense because his offensive talent is just that good. When people say the Hawks need wing defenders and rim protectors it's almost always about top tier wing defenders and rim protectors.

[_s_t_u_r_t_]

Just happened upon this from before last year's draft.... interesting to hear him directly speak to the topic back then (3:30-ish mark)...

Watch on YouTube

[Atlanta Hawk Fan]

Yeah, can we get Dedmon?

Bazemore?

Wait. I take that back.

When we signed Len, he was considered to be almost the rim protector that Dedmon was.

And Bembry has begun to show some new consistency defensively from game to game.

I don't think this is anyone's problem but Trae's.

So will his defense improve? Probably, just because he'll better recognize what his opponent is trying to do, by virtue of experience and maturity. Intelligence is a big part of being a good defender, and is what allows instincts to be productive. I think... think... Trae has good instincts, but just not the experience yet to make those instincts work sufficiently to his favor.

Also, he'll probably improve because it's fairly typical of all players that they gain some girth as they get beyond 25, and his lack of girth makes him more vulnerable.

What he has going for him is that he's cat quick. He doesn't have to be a steals leader. He just needs to get better at staying in front of his man, and fighting through screens. He has the talent to do the former right now... he will be more capable of the latter as he gains some more physical mass.

If Dedmon and Bazemore are the answer, then me and you are asking totally different questions.

You specified he needs a rim protector behind him.

Huh? Dedmon's not a rim protector?

And... huh?... for that matter, as I pointed out, wasn't Len considered a rim protector before he got here?

So I don't know where you're going with that. Sounds like excuse-making to me, though.

And I'll acknowledge that Bazemore's defense hasn't always been as good as some wanted to promote it as being, but he's generally still regarded as better than average. Bembry, definitely so.

So, again... same... I don't know how one can pretend that Trae's somehow handicapped by others here.

No, he himself is just not a good defender. He does have to get better. And it's not actually about steals so much as it is just the basics of staying in front of your man and fighting through screens and being in the way of the opponent's quarterback being a good conduit for their offense.

Neither are particularly good rim protectors. Both are just adequate which leaves our frontcourt weak in that area when paired with JC.

[Atlanta Hawk Fan]

Yeah, can we get Dedmon?

Bazemore?

Wait. I take that back.

When we signed Len, he was considered to be almost the rim protector that Dedmon was.

And Bembry has begun to show some new consistency defensively from game to game.

I don't think this is anyone's problem but Trae's.

So will his defense improve? Probably, just because he'll better recognize what his opponent is trying to do, by virtue of experience and maturity. Intelligence is a big part of being a good defender, and is what allows instincts to be productive. I think... think... Trae has good instincts, but just not the experience yet to make those instincts work sufficiently to his favor.

Also, he'll probably improve because it's fairly typical of all players that they gain some girth as they get beyond 25, and his lack of girth makes him more vulnerable.

What he has going for him is that he's cat quick. He doesn't have to be a steals leader. He just needs to get better at staying in front of his man, and fighting through screens. He has the talent to do the former right now... he will be more capable of the latter as he gains some more physical mass.

If Dedmon and Bazemore are the answer, then me and you are asking totally different questions.

You specified he needs a rim protector behind him.

Huh? Dedmon's not a rim protector?

And... huh?... for that matter, as I pointed out, wasn't Len considered a rim protector before he got here?

So I don't know where you're going with that. Sounds like excuse-making to me, though.

And I'll acknowledge that Bazemore's defense hasn't always been as good as some wanted to promote it as being, but he's generally still regarded as better than average. Bembry, definitely so.

So, again... same... I don't know how one can pretend that Trae's somehow handicapped by others here.

No, he himself is just not a good defender. He does have to get better. And it's not actually about steals so much as it is just the basics of staying in front of your man and fighting through screens and being in the way of the opponent's quarterback being a good conduit for their offense.

Neither are particularly good rim protectors. Both are just adequate which leaves our frontcourt weak in that area when paired with JC.

[jayu70]

In lieu of rim protector (which Dedmon kinda is), I'd use the term rim deterrent. Somone opposing players fear.
Someone we can funnel the offensive player too.

[kg01]

If Dedmon and Bazemore are the answer, then me and you are asking totally different questions.

You specified he needs a rim protector behind him.

Huh? Dedmon's not a rim protector?

And... huh?... for that matter, as I pointed out, wasn't Len considered a rim protector before he got here?

So I don't know where you're going with that. Sounds like excuse-making to me, though.

And I'll acknowledge that Bazemore's defense hasn't always been as good as some wanted to promote it as being, but he's generally still regarded as better than average. Bembry, definitely so.

So, again... same... I don't know how one can pretend that Trae's somehow handicapped by others here.

No, he himself is just not a good defender. He does have to get better. And it's not actually about steals so much as it is just the basics of staying in front of your man and fighting through screens and being in the way of the opponent's quarterback being a good conduit for their offense.

Neither are particularly good rim protectors. Both are just adequate which leaves our frontcourt weak in that area when paired with JC.

I think Len and collins will show a lot of improvement next season defensively.

[WuriderX]

Ironically, I was listening to the podcast on peachtree hoops and the guy noted how Pierce throws both Trae and Huerter to the wolves on defense. There is no hiding them on a player who can't shoot they are guarding their man. he gave an example of how Butler was playing physical on Huerter. pierce said after the game that Huerter needs to improve his strength because guys feel that they can get physical with him. he stated that instead of subbing in Bazemore or switching prince he left Huerter in there. The guy in the podcast stated the the coaching staff chooses player development over everything else giving these guys not choice but to get better and smarter.

[REHawksFan]

... and furthermore, can we stop with defensive analytics? Or can we at least acknowledge the multitude of flaws associated with trying to quantify defensive "impact"?

The old guard probably remembers that, despite being a numbers guy, I do not subscribe to analytics to a large degree. Simply because people are not robots and it is literally impossible to quantify many aspects of the game that folks are attaching statistics to nowadays.

This has nothing to do with Trae, specifically. I just hate the way people spout these numbers with no apparent or actual knowledge about what they represent.

If you want to use a number, fine. But you also need to include a disclaimer that there are several factors that cannot be captured by the statistic you're quoting. I don't care how many eggsperts keep citing them.

I've often wondered how much the defensive analytics is influenced by the rest of the guys on the court? It makes sense, to me anyway, that it would be heavily dependent upon how good the other 4 guys are. IF, hypothetically speaking, we could drop Trae on the UTAH roster with Gobert and those defensive minded guys, would his Defensive Rating be just as bad? I doubt it.

I was curious about this relationship so I looked up the team and individual ratings for Defensive Efficiency. It's striking how directly correlated they are.

Collin Sexton has the worst defensive rating in the NBA (among rookies playing 30+ games). Not surprisingly, Cleveland has the worst overall defensive rating. Elie Okobo has the 2nd worst rating. Phoenix has the 2nd worst defense. Trae, Jaylen, and Huerter are 3-5 worst. Hawks are 5th worst. Kevin Knox and Allonzo Trier come next. NYK rank 3rd worst. In all, I looked at 41 rookies that have played in 30 games or more this season and it follows almost to a tee that the worst ranked rookies play on the worst ranked teams and the best ranked rookies play on the best ranked teams.

So which came first, the chicken or the egg? I'm inclined to believe the player rating is more influenced by the rest of the team rather than vice versa. In that vein, the fact that Trae plays with a bunch of other BAD defenders probably results in an overstatement of his defensive liabilities.

[kg01]

... and furthermore, can we stop with defensive analytics? Or can we at least acknowledge the multitude of flaws associated with trying to quantify defensive "impact"?

The old guard probably remembers that, despite being a numbers guy, I do not subscribe to analytics to a large degree. Simply because people are not robots and it is literally impossible to quantify many aspects of the game that folks are attaching statistics to nowadays.

This has nothing to do with Trae, specifically. I just hate the way people spout these numbers with no apparent or actual knowledge about what they represent.

If you want to use a number, fine. But you also need to include a disclaimer that there are several factors that cannot be captured by the statistic you're quoting. I don't care how many eggsperts keep citing them.

I've often wondered how much the defensive analytics is influenced by the rest of the guys on the court? It makes sense, to me anyway, that it would be heavily dependent upon how good the other 4 guys are. IF, hypothetically speaking, we could drop Trae on the UTAH roster with Gobert and those defensive minded guys, would his Defensive Rating be just as bad? I doubt it.

I was curious about this relationship so I looked up the team and individual ratings for Defensive Efficiency. It's striking how directly correlated they are.

Collin Sexton has the worst defensive rating in the NBA (among rookies playing 30+ games). Not surprisingly, Cleveland has the worst overall defensive rating. Elie Okobo has the 2nd worst rating. Phoenix has the 2nd worst defense. Trae, Jaylen, and Huerter are 3-5 worst. Hawks are 5th worst. Kevin Knox and Allonzo Trier come next. NYK rank 3rd worst. In all, I looked at 41 rookies that have played in 30 games or more this season and it follows almost to a tee that the worst ranked rookies play on the worst ranked teams and the best ranked rookies play on the best ranked teams.

So which came first, the chicken or the egg? I'm inclined to believe the player rating is more influenced by the rest of the team rather than vice versa. In that vein, the fact that Trae plays with a bunch of other BAD defenders probably results in an overstatement of his defensive liabilities.

Eggsactly!

And folks casually say, "Well, Trae Young's the worst defender in the NBA, blah, blah ..."

Well, it's not that simple and it's not totally on him individually. To act as if the team he's on has no impact on that is purposely disingenuous.

Does he need to work to be better defensively? Absolutely yes. He is a rookie after all. But these folks who keep spitting these defensive metrics out, with no disclaimer about the shortcomings that come with those metrics, need to quit.

[jayu70]

Ironically, I was listening to the podcast on peachtree hoops and the guy noted how Pierce throws both Trae and Huerter to the wolves on defense. There is no hiding them on a player who can't shoot they are guarding their man. he gave an example of how Butler was playing physical on Huerter. pierce said after the game that Huerter needs to improve his strength because guys feel that they can get physical with him. he stated that instead of subbing in Bazemore or switching prince he left Huerter in there. The guy in the podcast stated the the coaching staff chooses player development over everything else giving these guys not choice but to get better and smarter.

Vince talked about this during the broadcast.
Said it was good for Huerter. On the job learning since most players thi k they can be physical with him.
The offseason he'll work on getting stronger.

[jayu70]

... and furthermore, can we stop with defensive analytics? Or can we at least acknowledge the multitude of flaws associated with trying to quantify defensive "impact"?

The old guard probably remembers that, despite being a numbers guy, I do not subscribe to analytics to a large degree. Simply because people are not robots and it is literally impossible to quantify many aspects of the game that folks are attaching statistics to nowadays.

This has nothing to do with Trae, specifically. I just hate the way people spout these numbers with no apparent or actual knowledge about what they represent.

If you want to use a number, fine. But you also need to include a disclaimer that there are several factors that cannot be captured by the statistic you're quoting. I don't care how many eggsperts keep citing them.

I've often wondered how much the defensive analytics is influenced by the rest of the guys on the court? It makes sense, to me anyway, that it would be heavily dependent upon how good the other 4 guys are. IF, hypothetically speaking, we could drop Trae on the UTAH roster with Gobert and those defensive minded guys, would his Defensive Rating be just as bad? I doubt it.

I was curious about this relationship so I looked up the team and individual ratings for Defensive Efficiency. It's striking how directly correlated they are.

Collin Sexton has the worst defensive rating in the NBA (among rookies playing 30+ games). Not surprisingly, Cleveland has the worst overall defensive rating. Elie Okobo has the 2nd worst rating. Phoenix has the 2nd worst defense. Trae, Jaylen, and Huerter are 3-5 worst. Hawks are 5th worst. Kevin Knox and Allonzo Trier come next. NYK rank 3rd worst. In all, I looked at 41 rookies that have played in 30 games or more this season and it follows almost to a tee that the worst ranked rookies play on the worst ranked teams and the best ranked rookies play on the best ranked teams.

So which came first, the chicken or the egg? I'm inclined to believe the player rating is more influenced by the rest of the team rather than vice versa. In that vein, the fact that Trae plays with a bunch of other BAD defenders probably results in an overstatement of his defensive liabilities.

I've asked questions about defensive mumbo jumbo stats before when it comes to individual stats.
Example: when we played against the Wiz, Satoransky was the starting PG, but Trae was matched up defensively on Ariza. Sato was scoring at will, some tool on the GB who didn't watch the game but only the boxscore claimed Sato was taking it to Young. How does the defensive numbers account for that?
Or because a team like ours does so much switching and Young ends up with a big on him in the post?
How does it account for when a player forces a guy to pick up his dribble and force a pass on the initial action but that pass or couple passes later leads to a score?
There are so many nuances to defense that doesn't get captured by 'numbers'.

[Jamaaliver]

Read on Twitter

Here's hoping a fair amount of Trae's training this summer involves on ball defense as well as weight training.

[tbhawksfan1]

Trae is on a mission and he's going to build himself into a rock. Already progressing nicely. D will improve. his O and PG skills ie making otherss better means that even as an inferiour defender he's a star. He's going to improve the D though

[HMFFL]

I expect him to improve on defense but not a lot. I don't believe he has the length so he will need to gain an edge in other ways.


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