Draft Thread 2: The Electric Draftaloo

[DOT]

Also why do you think the lakers are most likey going to darius garland in next month draft if they have so called point guard of future lonzo ball. The lakers considering taking darius garland because he doesn't have drama, he is better prospect then lonzo ball and can shoot the ball better then lonzo ball. I am going leave at that, last comment on this subject before i get in trouble.

So, you can't name any drama started by Lonzo or LaVar this year, or any started by Lonzo his rookie year, and are just going off a preconceived opinion from 2 years ago

Got it

that's drama this year by lavar ball

Watch on YouTube

That's not drama started by LaVar, that's a reaction to LeBron trying to send Lonzo to New Orleans for AD

Try again

And absolutely none of the other stuff you posted is relevant either, you're just trying to justify your preconceived notion at this point

[BLACKFEET 2010]

Read on Twitter

Would rather see him shoot than hear him give some generic statement about how he's intrigued about the possibility of playing in NY.

What value would that have?
There’s loads of game footage of him.
I don’t know what he or anyone for that matter gains from a shooting exhibition.

[GONYK]

Yeah, I like Culver and I'm not the biggest RJ fan, but you gotta swing for the fences at 3rd overall

I do think if the draft was after free agency and we signed KD and Kyrie, then Culver would be the much better fit and much safer option plus we wouldn't need high upside with two stars, but you can't assume they're both coming

In your opinion, what separates RJ as a prospect from someone like Mudiay?

I'm not trolling, but the strengths and weaknesses lineup pretty well.

Pros:

- Great pedigree
- Projected #1 pick coming out of HS
- Powerful builds
- Very good, but not elite athleticism
- Playmaking ability
- Real threat in transition
- Straight line penetration
- Scoring mentality

Cons:
- Inefficient
- Poor shooting
- Poor FT shooting
- Defensive effectiveness
- Inconsistent IQ
- Struggles in halfcourt

Not making a direct comparison, but I am trying to figure out what the key differentiator is.

RJ's shooting mechanics are much better than Mudiay's at a similar age amongst other things that can't be tangibly found in raw production numbers (No hitch, very balanced off the catch and when set). I also don't think it's fair to say RJ struggled in half court offense for various reasons....

I agree with the mechanics. RJ's problem is with his feet, not his mechanics. I think it is a fair statement to say that RJ was inefficient in the halfcourt without that statement being conditional.

Also RJ pre-college had a reputation for being a great defender. Judging college players based on the effort they put on defense at that level is dubious to say the least... especially guards and wings who very often bear the weight of carrying the teams offensive load and the drop off in talent from starters to bench players is way more massive at the college level than at the NBA level generally. If RJ picked up 2 fouls in the first half Duke couldn't survive offensively without him especially when Tre Jones was out.

This is a bit of a cop out to me. Culver was in the same role with the same responsibilities, and still put forth a ton of defensive effort, without the luxury of Zion and Reddish.

It's easy to look at production and say well this player is similar production-wise so they MUST have the same outcomes at the next level. That's not fair to RJ. It feels like this is a case of confirmation bias on you're part to find the least productive player who has a similar archetype because you're just not a fan of the type of player Barrett is.

I can do the same thing with Derozan and RJ and say he's going to be an all star because Derozan became an all star with similar characteristics coming out of USC. It's disingenuous and why I somewhat hate player comparisons as anything more than just a frame of reference for how a player may translate.

I wasn't talking about outcomes. I was asking specifically for differentiators. I even said that I'm not making a direct comparison. This feels like a case of confirmation bias on your part towards my post. It's as disingenuous to say that Mudiay isn't as much on the spectrum of possible outcomes as Derozan is when discussing RJ, for the reasons I laid out.

And I am a fan of the archetype that Barrett projects from the SG position. What I'm unsure of is if Barrett is actually likely to reach it, for various reasons.

Hence, my question.

[GONYK]

Read on Twitter

Would rather see him shoot than hear him give some generic statement about how he's intrigued about the possibility of playing in NY.

What value would that have?
There’s loads of game footage of him.
I don’t know what he or anyone for that matter gains from a shooting exhibition.

So what is the point of the pro day then?

[BLACKFEET 2010]

Would rather see him shoot than hear him give some generic statement about how he's intrigued about the possibility of playing in NY.

What value would that have?
There’s loads of game footage of him.
I don’t know what he or anyone for that matter gains from a shooting exhibition.

So what is the point of the pro day then?

....he asks Bill Duffy.

[GONYK]

What value would that have?
There’s loads of game footage of him.
I don’t know what he or anyone for that matter gains from a shooting exhibition.

So what is the point of the pro day then?

....he asks Bill Duffy.

No, I'm asking you. You are the one who is questioning the value of the Knicks sending our scouts to see an NBA prospect who we could potentially invest millions of dollars in doing basketball activity in person.

I know what Duffy gets out of it.

[Clyde Frazier]

Looking at the history of the 3rd pick, the good thing you can say is that they rarely bust... just wish barrett wasn't so underwhelming relative to some of these past picks

2010s

2018 Luka Doncic, Slovenia - Atlanta Hawks
2017 Jayson Tatum, Duke – Boston Celtics
2016 Jaylen Brown, California – Boston Celtics
2015 Jahlil Okafor, Duke – Philadelphia 76ers
2014 Joel Embiid, Kansas – Philadelphia 76ers
2013 Otto Porter, Georgetown – Washington Wizards
2012 Bradley Beal, Florida – Washington Wizards
2011 Enes Kanter, Kentucky – Utah Jazz
2010 Derrick Favors, Georgia Tech – New Jersey Nets

2000s

2009 James Harden, Arizona State – Oklahoma City Thunder
2008 O.J. Mayo, USC – Minnesota Timberwolves
2007 Al Horford, Florida – Atlanta Hawks
2006 Adam Morrison, Gonzaga – Charlotte Bobcats
2005 Deron Williams, Illinois – Utah Jazz
2004 Ben Gordon, Connecticut – Chicago Bulls
2003 Carmelo Anthony, Syracuse – Denver Nuggets
2002 Mike Dunleavy, Duke – Golden State Warriors
2001 Pau Gasol, Spain – Atlanta Hawks
2000 Darius Miles, East St. Louis HS (Mo.) – L.A. Clippers

1990s

1999 Baron Davis, UCLA – Charlotte Hornets
1998 Raef LaFrentz, Kansas – Denver Nuggets
1997 Chauncey Billups, Colorado – Boston Celtics
1996 Shareef Abdur-Rahim, California – Vancouver Grizzlies
1995 Jerry Stackhouse, North Carolina – Philadelphia 76ers
1994 Grant Hill, Duke – Detroit Pistons
1993 Anfernee Hardaway, Memphis – Golden State Warriors
1992 Christian Laettner, Duke – Minnesota Timberwolves
1991 Billy Owens, Syracuse – Sacramento Kings
1990 Chris Jackson, Louisiana State – Denver Nuggets

1980s

1989 Sean Elliott, Arizona – San Antonio Spurs
1988 Charles Smith, Pittsburgh – Philadelphia 76ers
1987 Dennis Hopson, Ohio State – New Jersey Nets
1986 Chris Washburn, North Carolina State – Golden State Warriors
1985 Benoit Benjamin, Creighton – L.A. Clippers
1984 Michael Jordan, North Carolina – Chicago Bulls
1983 Rodney McCray, Louisville – Houston Rockets
1982 Dominique Wilkins, Georgia – Utah Jazz
1981 Buck Williams, Maryland – New Jersey Nets
1980 Kevin McHale, Minnesota – Boston Celtics

[taj2133]

So, you can't name any drama started by Lonzo or LaVar this year, or any started by Lonzo his rookie year, and are just going off a preconceived opinion from 2 years ago

Got it

that's drama this year by lavar ball

Watch on YouTube

That's not drama started by LaVar, that's a reaction to LeBron trying to send Lonzo to New Orleans for AD

Try again

And absolutely none of the other stuff you posted is relevant either, you're just trying to justify your preconceived notion at this point

No that's drama thats like if knox is crying about going to new orleans in ad trade, which i don't think knox would be crying who cares if you get traded your getting payed millions of dollars. Lonzo is crying because of trade rumor that is drama like magic johnson your grown man that's part of nba life trade rumors. If you want use alternative facts saying lonzo ball doesn't cause drama then go ahead buddy when there is video proof.

[BLACKFEET 2010]

So what is the point of the pro day then?

....he asks Bill Duffy.

No, I'm asking you. You are the one who is questioning the value of the Knicks sending our scouts to see an NBA prospect who we could potentially invest millions of dollars in doing basketball activity in person.

I know what Duffy gets out of it.

I was agreeing with you. There is no benefit as it pertains to the drafting of RJ Barrett.
No I’m not questioning anything.
I’m saying you think he should put on a shooting show? I’d love to know how that benefits him.

Would it move the meter for us or in anyway change our perception of him as a player that we are ready or not to invest millions in if he say knocked down 50% of his shots in this setting?

Exactly. We get it. You don’t like him.

[GONYK]

....he asks Bill Duffy.

No, I'm asking you. You are the one who is questioning the value of the Knicks sending our scouts to see an NBA prospect who we could potentially invest millions of dollars in doing basketball activity in person.

I know what Duffy gets out of it.

I was agreeing with you. There is no benefit as it pertains to the drafting of RJ Barrett.
No I’m not questioning anything.
I’m saying you think he should put on a shooting show? I’d love to know how that benefits him.

Would it move the meter for us or in anyway change our perception of him as a player that we are ready or not to invest millions in if he say knocked down 50% of his shots in this setting?

Exactly. We get it. You don’t like him.

The Knicks must have been interested in factoring in RJ's workout performance into their evaluation of drafting him, since they sent scouts.

Him not doing anything is obviously in his and his agent's interest, but that should have been communicated to the actual teams.

You don't have any real handle on how I feel about RJ

[BLACKFEET 2010]

No, I'm asking you. You are the one who is questioning the value of the Knicks sending our scouts to see an NBA prospect who we could potentially invest millions of dollars in doing basketball activity in person.

I know what Duffy gets out of it.

I was agreeing with you. There is no benefit as it pertains to the drafting of RJ Barrett.
No I’m not questioning anything.
I’m saying you think he should put on a shooting show? I’d love to know how that benefits him.

Would it move the meter for us or in anyway change our perception of him as a player that we are ready or not to invest millions in if he say knocked down 50% of his shots in this setting?

Exactly. We get it. You don’t like him.

The Knicks must have been interested in factoring in RJ's workout performance into their evaluation of drafting him, since they sent scouts.

You don't have any real handle on how I feel about RJ

You compared him to Mudiay. And qualified it with “I’m not trolling”

[DOT]

that's drama this year by lavar ball

Watch on YouTube

That's not drama started by LaVar, that's a reaction to LeBron trying to send Lonzo to New Orleans for AD

Try again

And absolutely none of the other stuff you posted is relevant either, you're just trying to justify your preconceived notion at this point

No that's drama thats like if knox is crying about going to new orleans in ad trade, which i don't think knox would be crying who cares if you get traded your getting payed millions of dollars. Lonzo is crying because of trade rumor that is drama like magic johnson your grown man that's part of nba life trade rumors.

Lonzo's handling the thing professionally, it's his family that's saying stuff. Which is how it always goes with everybody, if we made a list of players that used family and friends to tell the media they're unhappy, nearly every player in the NBA would be on it, but you're singling him out for some reason

If we could get back on topic, that would be great. This is the draft thread, not the Lonzo thread, and I'm pretty sure you said you were done a couple pages ago

[GONYK]

I was agreeing with you. There is no benefit as it pertains to the drafting of RJ Barrett.
No I’m not questioning anything.
I’m saying you think he should put on a shooting show? I’d love to know how that benefits him.

Would it move the meter for us or in anyway change our perception of him as a player that we are ready or not to invest millions in if he say knocked down 50% of his shots in this setting?

Exactly. We get it. You don’t like him.

The Knicks must have been interested in factoring in RJ's workout performance into their evaluation of drafting him, since they sent scouts.

You don't have any real handle on how I feel about RJ

You compared him to Mudiay. And qualified it with “I’m not trolling”

I think the issue is more your reading comprehension of my post than it is my thoughts on RJ.

[moocow007]

Windhorst knows nothing about the draft but even he was talking about how many GMs are intrigued by Culver.

Maybe he just meant CLE b/c he might still have a sauce with that franchise?

He's probably trying to help the Cavs who, above any other team drafting in the lottery, really need Barrett most..by throwing shade. The notion that Culver is their guy above all is just silly. The Cavs are looking for relevance. They are looking for an alpha. They are looking for a top tier offensive talent. They are looking for someone they can make the face of their franchise and eject energy, explosiveness and excitement into their grossly dull roster. And someone that they can dress up as the Batman to their Robin (Colin Sexton). Other than Zion Williamson, RJ Barrett is ABSOLUTELY, POSITIVELY the next best thing for that organization (one that can't attract top tier free agents and who lack the assets to trade for what they need most).

Sent from my SM-N960U using RealGM mobile app

Am very curious to see how desperate the Cavs will be in trying to move up from 5 to 3 in order to draft RJ.

I would expect that the Cavs have already contacted the Knicks about this. Barrett really would be the best fit for them on so many levels that they'd be insane not to try and pursue a deal. The Cavs averaged the 2nd least number of points per game this past season to go along with the 3rd worst shooting percentage. Why? Cause they have no natural scorers in their starting lineup. Two of their top 5 scorers this past season are free agents and highly unlikely to return. Their best offensive player is their 6th man lol who has been viewed as a chucker. They have no one that can really be trotted out to their fan base as a leading man with Colin Sexton looking more like a Robin type player. Barrett is not only a terrific offensive player (2nd best in the draft), he's also an alpha personality and a big name player whose face the Cavs can plaster all over the place to give their fanbase hope that they are headed in the right direction. And unlike the rest if the guys after Zion and Morant, you know that Barrett can handle that role.

BTW...the Knicks were barely above the Cavs in offensive futility.

Sent from my SM-N960U using RealGM mobile app

[moocow007]

Mudiay's intensity or lack there of is one. Mudiay's lack of feel for the game is another. For all the talk of Mudiay being this Jordan type player coming out of HS he's kinda rolly-polly-ish to be quite honest. Part of it likely is lack of mental toughness which likely is the reason why his play is so uneven, why he appears not in ideal shape (a criticism that has been laid upon him before) and why he never seems to look to exert his will in a game. Even games he does statistically well it you sometimes barely notice he's even on the floor. Mudiay does not have that extra gear or the type of fight that you want to see in a top lottery pick. It's not that he doesn't have skill. He does. Most guys taken in the lottery do. It's the ability to use that skill at it's max when the game is on that's the difference between just being "a guy with talent" and an "impact player". Whether they can or not translate skill to impact has to do with BOTH mental AND physical limits. Mental limits us where the body is able but the mind is not. Physical limits is when the mind is willing but the body isn't able to compete. Mudiay's track may be more where a guy like Cam Reddish is headed. Honestly you can also compare Culver to Mudiay as well if Barrett to Mudiay is a viable comparison/concern.

Sent from my SM-N960U using RealGM mobile app

[Buttah304]

Mudiay's intensity or lack there of is one. Mudiay's lack of feel for the game is another. For all the talk of Mudiay being this Jordan type player coming out of HS he's kinda rolly-polly-ish to be quite honest. Part of it likely is lack of mental toughness which likely is the reason why his play is so uneven, why he appears not in ideal shape (a criticism that has been laid upon him before) and why he never seems to look to exert his will in a game. Even games he does statistically well it you sometimes barely notice he's even on the floor. Mudiay does not have that extra gear or the type of fight that you want to see in a top lottery pick. It's not that he doesn't have skill. He does. Most guys taken in the lottery do. It's the ability to use that skill at it's max when the game is on that's the difference between guys with talent and impact players. Mudiay's track may be more where a guy like Cam Reddish is headed. Honestly you can also compare Culver to Mudiay as well if Barrett to Mudiay is a viable comparison/concern.

Sent from my SM-N960U using RealGM mobile app

I completely agree with this. When RJ is locked in he makes his presence felt on the court. His intensity alone and overall approach to the game can be infectious with his teammates. When it comes to Mudiay you can barely tell when he is actually on his way to a 30 point night and it can be happening in front of your face. I just can't shake the feeling that he is always going to have a lazy approach to the game. Mudiay to me coasts way too often and he lacks the fiery intensity needed out of a top pick. The will to compete night in and night out, the hunger to get better or simply wanting it more is what will always hold him back.

[GONYK]

Mudiay's intensity or lack there of is one. Mudiay's lack of feel for the game is another. For all the talk of Mudiay being this Jordan type player coming out of HS he's kinda rolly-polly-ish to be quite honest. Part of it likely is lack of mental toughness which likely is the reason why his play is so uneven, why he appears not in ideal shape (a criticism that has been laid upon him before) and why he never seems to look to exert his will in a game. Even games he does statistically well it you sometimes barely notice he's even on the floor. Mudiay does not have that extra gear or the type of fight that you want to see in a top lottery pick. It's not that he doesn't have skill. He does. Most guys taken in the lottery do. It's the ability to use that skill at it's max when the game is on that's the difference between guys with talent and impact players. Mudiay's track may be more where a guy like Cam Reddish is headed.

Sent from my SM-N960U using RealGM mobile app

I wish you were here in Nov-Dec

What you are saying about Mudiay is valid for sure, especially in regards to him being out of shape throughout his career.

Intensity is not something I question with RJ. At least offensively. He has a real motor on that end.

Lack of feel is an interesting critique though, since Mudiay's feel for the PnR, both as a scorer and a playmaker, was probably his highest rated attribute after his mix of power and athleticism.

Aside from being out of shape (which I don't think he was this past season), it's his jumper and lack of extra gear that seems to prevent him from getting the most out of his athleticism.

I don't think RJ has that extra burst either though, which is why he had to rely on power so much with Duke.

I do believe what these guys have between the ears will ultimately make the difference. RJ seems to take the game more seriously.

Honestly you can also compare Culver to Mudiay as well if Barrett to Mudiay is a viable comparison/concern.

Culver's low end spectrum is probably more Frank. High IQ, defensive acumen, lack of burst and handle.

RJ got Mudiay because of the power and athleticism.

I see RJ's spectrum from low to high as Mudiay - Derozan with the midpoint being a young Tyreke Evans.

[Capn'O]

For the Cavs - I can see the Barrett/Sexton combo either REALLY working or REALLY not working.

The question I have about Barrett, and really the only one I'd be looking to analyze prior to taking him as a long term piece, is his decision making. I.e. are his tunnel vision tendencies innate or an effect of his role at Duke. The rest, you can work with.

Note, you can still select him as an asset and use him for a trade if you determine that he can't get to where you want him. Overall, I agree with Moo's point that he has the highest value at this time.

[BLACKFEET 2010]

The Knicks must have been interested in factoring in RJ's workout performance into their evaluation of drafting him, since they sent scouts.

You don't have any real handle on how I feel about RJ

You compared him to Mudiay. And qualified it with “I’m not trolling”

I think the issue is more your reading comprehension of my post than it is my thoughts on RJ.

My fault, you never said that.
Be easy professor, I didn’t attack you.
You invented basketball.

I simply said you wanted the dude to put on a shooting exhibition, and I asked for what. It wouldn’t help him. And it wouldn’t help us. Why you got defensive is on you.

We both know you were and have been passive aggressive throwing shade at the dude and his game.
Which is your right. But we are both adults.
I kinda expect better from you.

[Knicksfan1992]

For the Cavs - I can see the Barrett/Sexton combo either REALLY working or REALLY not working.

The question I have about Barrett, and really the only one I'd be looking to analyze prior to taking him as a long term piece, is his decision making. I.e. are his tunnel vision tendencies innate or an effect of his role at Duke. The rest, you can work with.

Note, you can still select him as an asset and use him for a trade if you determine that he can't get to where you want him. Overall, I agree with Moo's point that he has the highest value at this time.

Eh I don't love it.... I'm high on RJ's shot improving. I think as a pure off the catch shooter I see him becoming at least an average shooter but i don't love pairing 2 guys who's main weaknesses on offense are lack of reliable jumpers and inconsistent decision making with the ball in their hands. It's honestly why I'm slightly concerned pairing DSJ and Barrett in a non KD scenario. What helps us is that DSJ is a much better passer than Sexton is and is definitely a better catch and shoot guy as well and we also have FRank who is as unselfish as it gets at the wing spot.