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Political Roundtable Part XXV

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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXV 

Post#1921 » by I_Like_Dirt » Wed May 29, 2019 2:23 pm

dckingsfan wrote:In some cases, big money has definitely influenced our policies in the wrong way. But in many cases there were failed policies that were never fixed. I just gave you one issue where Employer Sponsored Healthcare was a good idea at the time but had unintended consequences - making us the one with the "most" out of whack system. It should be killed immediately. Another was baseline spending for our very valuable social services. These are fine examples where capitalists had little play or influence in crafting the bills.

Examples that you cite are also many. The prison industrial complex jumps to mind. The defense industrial complex being another. Or the constant addition of carveouts to our tax code. Examples where big money is constantly moving the needle.

So, I am half in agreement with you. The outsized influence of big money causes many of our problems. But I am half in disagreement in that government rarely kills bad programs.


I don't think you can disentangle things from big money so easily. Just because the concept of the starting point didn't start with big money doesn't mean there isn't an influence. Employer sponsored health care absolutely had input from larger employers. And killing it isn't so simple because short of better options to move on from where we are, it winds up being a non-starter, and there is every incentive from capitalists to prevent the better options because they absolutely will make less profits.

More than that, though, your health care example is where I prefer to look at capitalism beyond simply capitalists and separating certain people from others into defined groups. Everyone has a bit of capitalist in them. People who work for employers have that certain part of them that feels they're worth more than others and have earned their employer sponsored health care. They might eventually realize the flaws when they try to change jobs and realize they are effectively owned by their employer in a certain respect depending on the circumstances and they aren't going to realize the massive inefficiencies of the system because they see themselves "winning" the capitalism game relatively speaking.

That's the force that needs to be checked. It doesn't need to be eliminated. Capitalism harnesses it to great effect. Much like a nuclear reactor harnesses power extremely cheaply and efficiently but needs massive amounts of safety measures in place, so too does capitalism need similar safety measures or things get out of hand, only there isn't the immediate visual impact when things go wrong as there is with nuclear power and things get to simmer and change slowly over time.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXV 

Post#1922 » by dckingsfan » Wed May 29, 2019 2:41 pm

I_Like_Dirt wrote:
dckingsfan wrote:In some cases, big money has definitely influenced our policies in the wrong way. But in many cases there were failed policies that were never fixed. I just gave you one issue where Employer Sponsored Healthcare was a good idea at the time but had unintended consequences - making us the one with the "most" out of whack system. It should be killed immediately. Another was baseline spending for our very valuable social services. These are fine examples where capitalists had little play or influence in crafting the bills.

Examples that you cite are also many. The prison industrial complex jumps to mind. The defense industrial complex being another. Or the constant addition of carveouts to our tax code. Examples where big money is constantly moving the needle.

So, I am half in agreement with you. The outsized influence of big money causes many of our problems. But I am half in disagreement in that government rarely kills bad programs.

I don't think you can disentangle things from big money so easily. Just because the concept of the starting point didn't start with big money doesn't mean there isn't an influence. Employer sponsored health care absolutely had input from larger employers. And killing it isn't so simple because short of better options to move on from where we are, it winds up being a non-starter, and there is every incentive from capitalists to prevent the better options because they absolutely will make less profits.

More than that, though, your health care example is where I prefer to look at capitalism beyond simply capitalists and separating certain people from others into defined groups. Everyone has a bit of capitalist in them. People who work for employers have that certain part of them that feels they're worth more than others and have earned their employer sponsored health care. They might eventually realize the flaws when they try to change jobs and realize they are effectively owned by their employer in a certain respect depending on the circumstances and they aren't going to realize the massive inefficiencies of the system because they see themselves "winning" the capitalism game relatively speaking.

That's the force that needs to be checked. It doesn't need to be eliminated. Capitalism harnesses it to great effect. Much like a nuclear reactor harnesses power extremely cheaply and efficiently but needs massive amounts of safety measures in place, so too does capitalism need similar safety measures or things get out of hand, only there isn't the immediate visual impact when things go wrong as there is with nuclear power and things get to simmer and change slowly over time.

I see where you are coming from. I think our disagreement can be broken down into this:
I think it is a failing of government to effectively govern. Not an issue with capitalism or capitalist.

BTW, in the 30s, Roosevelt had his Social Security legislation pending and didn't want to jeopardize that legislation. Yes, the AMA did object - but that wasn't the primary reason he didn't move forward with Healthcare legislation - he had other priorities. Who would have guessed that Healthcare was more important.

Then in the 40s, to combat inflation, the 1942 Stabilization Act was passed. Why? The government wanted to put in price controls to constrain the pay for scarce workers (price controls are almost always a bad idea), the actual result - employer sponsored healthcare which the government was happy to make tax deductible.

So, yes - bad legislation caused the problem way more than those capitalists, IMO.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXV 

Post#1923 » by I_Like_Dirt » Wed May 29, 2019 2:57 pm

dckingsfan wrote:I see where you are coming from. I think our disagreement can be broken down into this:
I think it is a failing of government to effectively govern. Not an issue with capitalism or capitalist.


I don't think you can differentiate between the two. I see both of them as forces against each other, pushing the other and attempting to maintain balance. On one hand, you the force that is capitalism pushing for increased deregulation, or confounding regulations that are progressively less enforceable the more money is there - the end goals of more money for the wealthy are horrible but the end results of increased productivity are amazing. On the other hand you have a democracy (government) pushing for admirable goals to better the welfare of the people but without the end productivity.

That's where I suggested in my earlier post that capitalism had "won." It doesn't really matter who a person blames for capitalism winning - be it government for failing to govern or capitalism for derailing government. The problem is that regardless of how we got here, the balance is now way out of alignment - not just a little bit but a lot. And it isn't nearly so simple as getting government back to governing effectively. For one, you won't achieve that without first curbing capitalism some because capitalism now has its roots in government and is effectively curtailing attempts to regulate it, whether it be by blocking bills before they even start, or derailing them by creating loopholes they can exploit. Monopolizing government contact is a big deal.

Governments can and do make mistakes and frankly, should be allowed to. It doesn't mean there shouldn't be a push to do better and learn from mistakes. Every mistake at this juncture is exploited to the nth degree, though, and the mistakes aren't always even unintentional. Capitalism has figured out how to offload costs onto the public. In reality, that's always been the case but now it's gotten much, much worse. We get things cheap and efficiently, only it isn't efficient because we destroy labor and the lower and middle classes and gut the environment in the process. Things only look great if you factor out those costs.

And I would argue that we need to actually protect capitalism from itself, because if left unchecked, it's going to get out of hand to the point where it stops actually being a net benefit and is entirely about gaining the largest possible advantage for a select few. We aren't realistically close to that point at least the first part of my sentence. Still, we have enough problems that it's well past time to act. And yes, drastic measures that come with heavy costs might actually be necessary, though I'm not sure about that just yet. The reason being that the other options that don't come with those costs come with other hidden costs that are far greater and are simply not noticed at this time.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXV 

Post#1924 » by dckingsfan » Wed May 29, 2019 3:36 pm

I_Like_Dirt wrote:
dckingsfan wrote:I see where you are coming from. I think our disagreement can be broken down into this:
I think it is a failing of government to effectively govern. Not an issue with capitalism or capitalist.

I don't think you can differentiate between the two.

Cherry picking here but - you can definitely prove your point to the contrary. Where is government failing badly and there is no influence from capitalists.

For example: aid bills for the hurricanes & fires. Those aren't being blocked by a bunch of capitalists or special interest groups.

My proof would go something like this

If capitalists only then legislation that didn't touch capitalists would go smoothly. And that is false.

That capitalism now has an outsized influence on government is just a symptom of a poorly functioning government.

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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXV 

Post#1925 » by I_Like_Dirt » Wed May 29, 2019 4:01 pm

dckingsfan wrote:Cherry picking here but - you can definitely prove your point to the contrary. Where is government failing badly and there is no influence from capitalists.

For example: aid bills for the hurricanes & fires. Those aren't being blocked by a bunch of capitalists or special interest groups.

My proof would go something like this

If capitalists only then legislation that didn't touch capitalists would go smoothly. And that is false.



Not at all, honestly. A lot of that kind of stuff is absolutely a political game. That political game is being played out against the people. Hate is being stoked.

But yes, I would absolutely argue that it isn't just capitalism that is hurting government. Government absolutely hurts itself to. My point is more that democracy is honestly protecting capitalism right now. Capitalism isn't actually protecting democracy - it's protecting government in certain ways but it isn't the same thing. Maybe democracy does need to die. America isn't the only place that's struggling with it right now and it's certainly not the historical norm. I'm just not ready to give up on it and blame it for its own demise just yet. When it struggles is the time to help it the most, not point fingers and dump ideas without the ability to think up, let alone implement, better ones.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXV 

Post#1926 » by gtn130 » Wed May 29, 2019 4:06 pm

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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXV 

Post#1927 » by dckingsfan » Wed May 29, 2019 4:27 pm

I_Like_Dirt wrote:
dckingsfan wrote:Cherry picking here but - you can definitely prove your point to the contrary. Where is government failing badly and there is no influence from capitalists.

For example: aid bills for the hurricanes & fires. Those aren't being blocked by a bunch of capitalists or special interest groups.

My proof would go something like this

If capitalists only then legislation that didn't touch capitalists would go smoothly. And that is false.



Not at all, honestly. A lot of that kind of stuff is absolutely a political game. That political game is being played out against the people. Hate is being stoked.

But yes, I would absolutely argue that it isn't just capitalism that is hurting government. Government absolutely hurts itself to. My point is more that democracy is honestly protecting capitalism right now. Capitalism isn't actually protecting democracy - it's protecting government in certain ways but it isn't the same thing. Maybe democracy does need to die. America isn't the only place that's struggling with it right now and it's certainly not the historical norm. I'm just not ready to give up on it and blame it for its own demise just yet. When it struggles is the time to help it the most, not point fingers and dump ideas without the ability to think up, let alone implement, better ones.

I like the optimism. Government goes in waves like many other things... It could easily bounce back!
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXV 

Post#1928 » by Pointgod » Wed May 29, 2019 5:08 pm

Did anyone catch the Mueller press conference? I was at work and saw it on the tv but any good info from there?
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXV 

Post#1929 » by Wizardspride » Wed May 29, 2019 5:22 pm

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President Donald Trump referred to African countries, Haiti and El Salvador as "shithole" nations during a meeting Thursday and asked why the U.S. can't have more immigrants from Norway.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXV 

Post#1930 » by gtn130 » Wed May 29, 2019 5:26 pm

Pointgod wrote:Did anyone catch the Mueller press conference? I was at work and saw it on the tv but any good info from there?


No new info, but the conventional reading of it appears to be that Mueller was underscoring that he did not exonerate Trump, and it's Congress's job from here.

Odds of the House opening an impeachment inquiry went way way up, and a number of House Dems have already made statements supporting Impeachment after Mueller's statement today, most notably with Elijah Cummings (House Intel Chair) who was previously opposed to opening an inquiry.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXV 

Post#1931 » by dobrojim » Wed May 29, 2019 6:23 pm

Pointgod wrote:Did anyone catch the Mueller press conference? I was at work and saw it on the tv but any good info from there?



I felt like Mueller seemed very reserved and almost muzzled.

My take was that he was imploring every citizen who gives a f**k to actually read
the report.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXV 

Post#1932 » by Zonkerbl » Wed May 29, 2019 11:38 pm

gtn130 wrote:
Pointgod wrote:Did anyone catch the Mueller press conference? I was at work and saw it on the tv but any good info from there?


No new info, but the conventional reading of it appears to be that Mueller was underscoring that he did not exonerate Trump, and it's Congress's job from here.

Odds of the House opening an impeachment inquiry went way way up, and a number of House Dems have already made statements supporting Impeachment after Mueller's statement today, most notably with Elijah Cummings (House Intel Chair) who was previously opposed to opening an inquiry.


I went and skimmed through the headlines on Fox News website. There's a few propaganda pieces but mostly straight up reporting "Pelosi is really under the gun now to start impeachment proceedings"

Kind of infuriating because Mueller literally quoted himself word for word. There is absolutely nothing new that he said but because he said it on tv all of a sudden it's somehow worth reporting on as astounding revelations. Maybe Trump is right - our press is utterly broken.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXV 

Post#1933 » by JWizmentality » Thu May 30, 2019 1:41 am

Zonkerbl wrote:
gtn130 wrote:
Pointgod wrote:Did anyone catch the Mueller press conference? I was at work and saw it on the tv but any good info from there?


No new info, but the conventional reading of it appears to be that Mueller was underscoring that he did not exonerate Trump, and it's Congress's job from here.

Odds of the House opening an impeachment inquiry went way way up, and a number of House Dems have already made statements supporting Impeachment after Mueller's statement today, most notably with Elijah Cummings (House Intel Chair) who was previously opposed to opening an inquiry.


I went and skimmed through the headlines on Fox News website. There's a few propaganda pieces but mostly straight up reporting "Pelosi is really under the gun now to start impeachment proceedings"

Kind of infuriating because Mueller literally quoted himself word for word. There is absolutely nothing new that he said but because he said it on tv all of a sudden it's somehow worth reporting on as astounding revelations. Maybe Trump is right - our press is utterly broken.


Press has been broken for a while. Only took the Pandora box that is Trump to expose how truly incompetent they've become.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXV 

Post#1934 » by pancakes3 » Thu May 30, 2019 3:32 am

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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXV 

Post#1935 » by closg00 » Thu May 30, 2019 11:34 am

Zonkerbl wrote:
gtn130 wrote:
Pointgod wrote:Did anyone catch the Mueller press conference? I was at work and saw it on the tv but any good info from there?


No new info, but the conventional reading of it appears to be that Mueller was underscoring that he did not exonerate Trump, and it's Congress's job from here.

Odds of the House opening an impeachment inquiry went way way up, and a number of House Dems have already made statements supporting Impeachment after Mueller's statement today, most notably with Elijah Cummings (House Intel Chair) who was previously opposed to opening an inquiry.


I went and skimmed through the headlines on Fox News website. There's a few propaganda pieces but mostly straight up reporting "Pelosi is really under the gun now to start impeachment proceedings"

Kind of infuriating because Mueller literally quoted himself word for word. There is absolutely nothing new that he said but because he said it on tv all of a sudden it's somehow worth reporting on as astounding revelations. Maybe Trump is right - our press is utterly broken.


It was necessary for Mueller to issue a statement because Barr had created a false narrative about the report, and release it into the media world in-order to lay-down cover for Trump.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXV 

Post#1936 » by Jamaaliver » Thu May 30, 2019 12:01 pm

Here's the damage done to the stock market since Trump's May 5 trade tweet

The bullish dynamic for risk assets on Wall Street is beginning to unravel, clearly. Blame it on trade-war fears, at least partly sparked by a May 5 tweet from President Donald Trump, or peg it to worries that the global economy is facing a pronounced slowdown. In any case, major assets are reflecting deepening concerns about the durability of bull run for stocks, which will mark its 10th year in about a month.

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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXV 

Post#1937 » by Pointgod » Thu May 30, 2019 12:36 pm

closg00 wrote:
Zonkerbl wrote:
gtn130 wrote:
No new info, but the conventional reading of it appears to be that Mueller was underscoring that he did not exonerate Trump, and it's Congress's job from here.

Odds of the House opening an impeachment inquiry went way way up, and a number of House Dems have already made statements supporting Impeachment after Mueller's statement today, most notably with Elijah Cummings (House Intel Chair) who was previously opposed to opening an inquiry.


I went and skimmed through the headlines on Fox News website. There's a few propaganda pieces but mostly straight up reporting "Pelosi is really under the gun now to start impeachment proceedings"

Kind of infuriating because Mueller literally quoted himself word for word. There is absolutely nothing new that he said but because he said it on tv all of a sudden it's somehow worth reporting on as astounding revelations. Maybe Trump is right - our press is utterly broken.


It was necessary for Mueller to issue a statement because Barr had created a false narrative about the report, and release it into the media world in-order to lay-down cover for Trump.


Congress needs to subpoena Mueller and get him testifying for tv. It needs to be spelled out clearly for the majority of uninformed Americans. The President would be indicted if not for the fact that he’s President. Fox News wouldn’t even be able to spin that.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXV 

Post#1938 » by Zonkerbl » Thu May 30, 2019 1:07 pm

Pointgod wrote:
closg00 wrote:
Zonkerbl wrote:
I went and skimmed through the headlines on Fox News website. There's a few propaganda pieces but mostly straight up reporting "Pelosi is really under the gun now to start impeachment proceedings"

Kind of infuriating because Mueller literally quoted himself word for word. There is absolutely nothing new that he said but because he said it on tv all of a sudden it's somehow worth reporting on as astounding revelations. Maybe Trump is right - our press is utterly broken.


It was necessary for Mueller to issue a statement because Barr had created a false narrative about the report, and release it into the media world in-order to lay-down cover for Trump.


Congress needs to subpoena Mueller and get him testifying for tv. It needs to be spelled out clearly for the majority of uninformed Americans. The President would be indicted if not for the fact that he’s President. Fox News wouldn’t even be able to spin that.


It's maddening but I agree - even if all that happens is Mueller reads exerpts from his report, somehow if it isn't a talking head saying something on tv it doesn't exist. For the same reason the Dems need to have hearings and they have to call them impeachment hearings so the press will cover it.

Last xmas I watched Die Hard (1988) and they come down really hard on the press in that movie. Then I watched the Bird Cage (the US version with Robin Williams) (1996) and they do the same. We've been teaching the public to consider the press an enemy of the people for decades. But I think the press is just a mirror of us. They behave the way they do because that's what we choose to consume. We're the idiots.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXV 

Post#1939 » by Zonkerbl » Thu May 30, 2019 2:11 pm

Can I just say, thank god we're back to arguing about abortion again. Does that mean we're back to agreeing that Nazis are bad, the rule of law is good, you shouldn't obstruct justice even if you think the investigation is looking into you unfairly, and etc.? Let's have an argument about how to balance the rights of women against those of their unborn children (as long as we acknowledge that women are in fact people with rights). That's, like, an honest argument that a democracy can and should wrestle with in good faith. But, like, we all love America and all agree we shouldn't welcome attempts from foreign countries, ANY FOREIGN COUNTRIES, EVEN OUR FRIENDS, to meddle in our elections. We are a sovereign nation and all you outsiders should butt the hell out, no offense.

I will say that the conversation now is completely distorted by the fact that the pro-birthers illegally stuffed the Supreme Court with pro-birther judges. Ends justifies the means is not cool. I hope the United States survives. Hopefully the Dems will win the entire govt in the next election and they can stuff the Supreme Court because that was not at all cool.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXV 

Post#1940 » by dckingsfan » Thu May 30, 2019 2:20 pm

Zonkerbl wrote:
Pointgod wrote:
closg00 wrote:
It was necessary for Mueller to issue a statement because Barr had created a false narrative about the report, and release it into the media world in-order to lay-down cover for Trump.


Congress needs to subpoena Mueller and get him testifying for tv. It needs to be spelled out clearly for the majority of uninformed Americans. The President would be indicted if not for the fact that he’s President. Fox News wouldn’t even be able to spin that.


It's maddening but I agree - even if all that happens is Mueller reads exerpts from his report, somehow if it isn't a talking head saying something on tv it doesn't exist. For the same reason the Dems need to have hearings and they have to call them impeachment hearings so the press will cover it.

Last xmas I watched Die Hard (1988) and they come down really hard on the press in that movie. Then I watched the Bird Cage (the US version with Robin Williams) (1996) and they do the same. We've been teaching the public to consider the press an enemy of the people for decades. But I think the press is just a mirror of us. They behave the way they do because that's what we choose to consume. We're the idiots.

Welcome back... and just to extend - the government is just a mirror of us as well...

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