Pascal Siakam Megathread - All Siakam-centric topics will be merged into this one

[Bknight4three]

Doubtful as of now and given he's 25 and Simmons is about to be 23, I think the youth factor likely is still giving Simmons the nod. That said nobody would think you were crazy to switch them.

How much is youth a factor here though? Siakim has shown that he can improve in strides while Simmons, who has seemingly been playing organized ball for almost his entire life, still cant shoot beyond 5 feet.

Players peak physically around 26. Doesn't matter how much better you get in terms of skills after a point on the age curve, even if you started playing later in life.

How much better does it get physically than current Siakam? He’s a long, quick, freak athlete who plays under control. He certainly could add some muscle mass, but that’s not something that you can’t do at age 27-29.

Simmons will likely improve athletically but I don’t know how much that will matter if he can’t improve his skills

[dhsilv2]

How much is youth a factor here though? Siakim has shown that he can improve in strides while Simmons, who has seemingly been playing organized ball for almost his entire life, still cant shoot beyond 5 feet.

Players peak physically around 26. Doesn't matter how much better you get in terms of skills after a point on the age curve, even if you started playing later in life.

i've seen you argue this at length before and i still don't understand what your point is. You're saying that players peak athletically at 26 (a questionable claim but let's say you're right) and so...what exactly?

As a result of this hypothetical peak you claim that it "Doesn't matter how much better you get in terms of skills after a point on the age curve". Which means according to you that your positive impact cannot increase after 26? Or you can't improve after 26? Or your improvement at a skill will always be less than your physical decline after 26? surely you don't believe any of those ridiculous statements. So what are you saying?

And moreover, what does that point supposedly indicate about the value of Siakim and Simmons going forward?

A players prime is going to be in that 25-30 range +/- 2 years perhaps. That's the range when a player is going to provide you with their absolute best play. Generally, that's the peak because even players who have played basketball their whole life, their skillset has to dramatically change and adapt for the NBA and thus we rarely see someone just surely dominate with athletic ability alone, but the decline in athletic ability in the 25-27 range is generally kept at bay and with point guards often the skill gains more than offset the athletic decline still about 30 when athletic abilities are generally going to start sharply declining.

Simmons even despite the more experience still has more time to develop before he enters those critical years and as he's already playing at a low level allstar level it increases the likely years of at least that level of impact.

If you're drafting you have to think in terms of how much total lifetime value is there in a best case/worst case/average case scenario.

You don't just want to draft the guy who at his peak is going to be the best, but you want the guy who gives you the most years at or near that peak...and you also want as many quality season as well just in general. Or trade value which is another topic.

As for the 26, this was just a quick google result using track and field as it's less skill and more just raw athletics driven.

https://www.quora.com/At-what-age-do-sprinters-generally-reach-peak-performance
https://travelingtrackster.wordpress.com/2014/09/23/track-field-peak-athletic-age/
https://www.wired.com/2011/07/athletes-peak-age/

[GreatWhiteStiff]

Ok I want to interject on this Draymond vs. Siakam talk.

This became a popular comparison because Siakam emerged this year as a dynamic switch everything defensive player who pitched in on offense and allowed Raps fans to imagine a small ball identity built around his talent. He is by NO MEANS in the same class as Draymond yet, and any Raps fans pushing this are the Raps fans that embarass all Raps fans on this board.

In reality, we haven't seen Siakam play any significant numbers at center. Draymond's beastly strength is a huge part of his game and will never be part of Siakam's. Siakam can switch onto 1's easier than 5's currently. That being said, Siakam is absolutely an elite athlete. Draymond is... not an elite athlete.

It is not hard to picture Siakam as a super elite multi-tool on both sides of the ball that you can build an identity around. Raps fans should be excited about his future. Just stop confusing his future with his present.

[everdiso]

#1 options these playoffs

1. Durant 34.2pts, 65.5ts%
2. Harden 31.6pts, 56.7ts%
3. Kawhi 30.7pts, 62.2ts%
4. George 28.6pts, 58.3ts%
5. Lillard 26.9pts, 56.6ts%
6. Giannis 25.5pts, 57.0ts%
7. Jokic 25.9pts, 59.6ts%
8. Griffin 24.5pts, 58.2ts%
9. Demar 22.0pts, 55.7ts%
10. Williams 21.7pts, 53.3ts%
11. Mitchell 21.3pts, 42.3ts%
12. Kyrie 21.3pts, 48.8ts%
13. Embiid 20.2pts, 56.9ts%
14. Russell 19.4pts, 44.6ts%
15. Bogdanovic 18.0pts, 51.1ts%
16. Gordon 15.2pts, 54.0ts%

#2 Options

1. Curry 27.7pts, 63.4ts%
2. Mccollum 24.7pts, 52.7ts%
3. Westbrook 22.8pts, 46.6ts%
4. Murray 21.3pts, 53.4ts%
5. Levert 21.0pts, 61.2ts%
6. LMA 20.0pts, 51.7ts%
7. Galli 19.8pts, 47.4ts%
8. Siakam 19.4pts, 55.4ts%
9. Butler 19.4pts, 56.4ts%
10. Jackson 17.8pts, 52.1ts%
11. Paul 17.0pts, 55.7ts%
12. Khris 16.9pts, 56.7ts%
13. Rubio 15.4pts, 51.5ts%
14. Evans 15.3pts, 56.3ts%
15. Tatum 15.2pts, 53.0ts%
16. Ross 13.2pts, 53.7ts%


Siakam hasn't even shot well these playoffs, thanks to 2 crazy tough matchups in the 2nd and 3rd rounds, but still we can put to bed the notion that he's not a good 2nd option.

Based on those shooting percentages, I'd say he's been a top-5 second option these playoffs, without even shooting anywhere near his standards.

[mtcan]

Doubtful as of now and given he's 25 and Simmons is about to be 23, I think the youth factor likely is still giving Simmons the nod. That said nobody would think you were crazy to switch them.

How much is youth a factor here though? Siakim has shown that he can improve in strides while Simmons, who has seemingly been playing organized ball for almost his entire life, still cant shoot beyond 5 feet.

Players peak physically around 26. Doesn't matter how much better you get in terms of skills after a point on the age curve, even if you started playing later in life.

Siakam is already an athletic freak. He's got a long wing span and runs the floor effortlessly. He has strong defensive instincts (notice the chase-down block on Draymond? And remember how he D'd up on Brogdan to force Brogdan to lose the ball out of bounds off his foot in game 5?) The physical tools are as good as they can be.

The only thing lacking for a guy who's only been playing basketball for 7 years is experience and reps. Pascal already has the physical tools, the motor and mentality...he needs to develop his shooting more...and he can already shoot better than Simmons and I'd say...as good as Giannis. His shot was barely existent last season...so look at how far he has come in 1 season. One more summer of working out and he should be a pretty reliable mid range/3 point shooter.

So Siakam with the crazy motor, physical tools and defensive instincts, ability to score close to the basket...….and then a reliable jump shot???

[everdiso]

hey if the physical peak is 26 than Siakam is 2yrs away from his physical peak.

[dhsilv2]

How much is youth a factor here though? Siakim has shown that he can improve in strides while Simmons, who has seemingly been playing organized ball for almost his entire life, still cant shoot beyond 5 feet.

Players peak physically around 26. Doesn't matter how much better you get in terms of skills after a point on the age curve, even if you started playing later in life.

Siakam is already an athletic freak. He's got a long wing span and runs the floor effortlessly. He has strong defensive instincts (notice the chase-down block on Draymond? And remember how he D'd up on Brogdan to force Brogdan to lose the ball out of bounds off his foot in game 5?) The physical tools are as good as they can be.

The only thing lacking for a guy who's only been playing basketball for 7 years is experience and reps. Pascal already has the physical tools, the motor and mentality...he needs to develop his shooting more...and he can already shoot better than Simmons and I'd say...as good as Giannis. His shot was barely existent last season...so look at how far he has come in 1 season. One more summer of working out and he should be a pretty reliable mid range/3 point shooter.

So Siakam with the crazy motor, physical tools and defensive instincts, ability to score close to the basket...….and then a reliable jump shot???

He's a top 20 player...

[cupcakesnake]

Ok I want to interject on this Draymond vs. Siakam talk.

This became a popular comparison because Siakam emerged this year as a dynamic switch everything defensive player who pitched in on offense and allowed Raps fans to imagine a small ball identity built around his talent. He is by NO MEANS in the same class as Draymond yet, and any Raps fans pushing this are the Raps fans that embarass all Raps fans on this board.

In reality, we haven't seen Siakam play any significant numbers at center. Draymond's beastly strength is a huge part of his game and will never be part of Siakam's. Siakam can switch onto 1's easier than 5's currently. That being said, Siakam is absolutely an elite athlete. Draymond is... not an elite athlete.

It is not hard to picture Siakam as a super elite multi-tool on both sides of the ball that you can build an identity around. Raps fans should be excited about his future. Just stop confusing his future with his present.

lol dude this post by me is from a while ago (I can't see how long ago) but I'm going to guess it was earlier this season before he blew up or last season/offseason. At that time he wasn't in the same class as Draymond. Pascal's explosion on offense this year was ahead of schedule, even for most die hard raptors fans. The new question with Siakam is merely: is this guy going to be a star or a superstar?

That being said, some of my points still hold true:
- We haven't seen much Pascal at center (He has played zero center minutes in the playoffs and only 9% of his regular season minutes there).
- Draymond is stronger than Pascal.
- Draymond is better at guarding the 5 than Pascal.
- Pascal is a way better athlete than Draymond.

Siakam dusted Draymond last night and is clearly a star on the rise that has probably already eclipsed Draymond. The same was not true when I wrote that post.

[-G-]

TOO SPICY FOR DRAYMOND

[Chandan]

U guys forgot that he injured his calf against Philly?

[Drygon]

I see a lot of people saying that Siakam won't perform again like he did in G1, but the Warriors doesn’t have an answer for him.

The only person who can guard him on the Warriors is Durant (who's injured currently).

Siakam was quiet in the last two series, but that’s because he had to go to through Embiid & Giannis in the paint.

Warrriors doesn’t have anybody with the length and quickness to cover Siakam.

[Potential]

All I know is he's better than Draymond and a lot of people are gonna say the same this season especially when he improves his 3 pt shot

YESSSSSS I DID IT!!!!!

[Waylanderz]

A lot of doubting about if Siakam can repeat that performance. I hope he proves them wrong.

[Ballings7]

Comparison-sake...

A mentally-right Darius Miles/Lamar Odom hybrid but with a better 3PT shot than them both career-wise.

Really like Siakam's game since I always enjoyed watching both Miles/Odom when they were "on", which was mainly about focus and mentality to games.

People who are surprised (ESPN talking heads outside of J Rose.. Fox Sports talkers actually have been aware of him) about his play, AND don't think he can do it again? He's done it several times before this, and Golden State's lack of size and their pace, favors his strong, blistering play to continue!

WATCH SOME GAMES OF OTHER TEAMS OUTSIDE OF NY, HOU, LA AND GS. Good christ.

[bootsythornton]

Golden St has literally no one to defend the rim against Siakam. Embiid and Giannis could eliminate this drive. X factor of the series forsure. If Golden St continues to double Kawhi, this could. be a short series. If they done, Kawhi still drives and gets his shot off.

[Waylanderz]

Game day. Expecting Siakam to feast again especially with words the Warriors will continue to double up on Kawhi.

[lordjeff05]

A couple of observations from a neutral observer;

Spicy P is a dumb nickname, and also kinda gross

I thought he looked a little cared at first, boy was I wrong.

He routinely used his athleticism to overmatch good positional defense. This performance was kind of fluky, but if he can do anything like that again it could break Golden State’s defense because it would require them to load up on multiple people, which is heart impossible given the rest of the personnel. Toronto has two guys that can beat you on switches (Gasol and Lowry) and one guy that is difficult to guard one on one (Kawhi). Another player that requires help to guard would short wire their defensive schemes, especially if FVV and Danny can hit open looks.

I’m all for excitement about a young guy, and who knows how high is ceiling is, but Simmons has been a better player and if he had a system around him that catered to his strengths, he’d be much better. Pascal could become Giannis or Ibaka, who also made a huge leap after a few years in the league and limited amateur ball, but who also leveled off after the initial growth in his game.

This series is fun, but one game does not a narrative make.

But Siakam grew while not having a system built for him. The system was built for Kawhi, not Siakam. I'm not claiming Simmons is not as good as Siakam, or could not be better. I'm saying that a player should not need a system built for his strengths, to show his strengths.

Simmons was absolutely shy in some of the Philly/Toronto games. He had to be embarrassed into action by sports commentators.

Man that’s a really interesting argument, because on one hand, a player who has a system built around him should be a in a comfort zone but the defense keys in on him, and on the other hand, a player forced to play a complimentary role has to shift their game to fit the system BUT gets the benefit of not being the focus of the defense. I can’t say that there is a clear argument about which makes you better but in some ways Simmons had the worst of both worlds as defenses keyed in on him but he didn’t have a system that catered to his strengths.

My only push back is that I don’t think media coverage had anything to do with his improvement during the series.

[Dennis 37]

A couple of observations from a neutral observer;

Spicy P is a dumb nickname, and also kinda gross

I thought he looked a little cared at first, boy was I wrong.

He routinely used his athleticism to overmatch good positional defense. This performance was kind of fluky, but if he can do anything like that again it could break Golden State’s defense because it would require them to load up on multiple people, which is heart impossible given the rest of the personnel. Toronto has two guys that can beat you on switches (Gasol and Lowry) and one guy that is difficult to guard one on one (Kawhi). Another player that requires help to guard would short wire their defensive schemes, especially if FVV and Danny can hit open looks.

I’m all for excitement about a young guy, and who knows how high is ceiling is, but Simmons has been a better player and if he had a system around him that catered to his strengths, he’d be much better. Pascal could become Giannis or Ibaka, who also made a huge leap after a few years in the league and limited amateur ball, but who also leveled off after the initial growth in his game.

This series is fun, but one game does not a narrative make.

But Siakam grew while not having a system built for him. The system was built for Kawhi, not Siakam. I'm not claiming Simmons is not as good as Siakam, or could not be better. I'm saying that a player should not need a system built for his strengths, to show his strengths.

Simmons was absolutely shy in some of the Philly/Toronto games. He had to be embarrassed into action by sports commentators.

Man that’s a really interesting argument, because on one hand, a player who has a system built around him should be a in a comfort zone but the defense keys in on him, and on the other hand, a player forced to play a complimentary role has to shift their game to fit the system BUT gets the benefit of not being the focus of the defense. I can’t say that there is a clear argument about which makes you better but in some ways Simmons had the worst of both worlds as defenses keyed in on him but he didn’t have a system that catered to his strengths.

My only push back is that I don’t think media coverage had anything to do with his improvement during the series.

It could be coincidense, but he did play better after he got a lot of criticism.

[SweetTouch]

Don’t expect to win a finals when your second best player scores 12 points

[HotelVitale]

Don’t expect to win a finals when your second best player scores 12 points

Meh, teams good enough to win a championship have to be resourceful enough to score in lots of ways. Every player has up and down games and Siakam was sort of due for a weak game after a ridiculous game one, and Raptors still could've won if Lowry or Gasol stepped up a little more. I'd guess that many times teams have won games in the Finals when their usual 2nd highest scorer only scores 12.