2019-2020 Roster Composition Wishlist (Non-Kyrie/ No-AD Edition)

[Afam]

Terry Rozier is not coming back. If he is kyrie is gone. Their relationship or lack of one can't be fixed. Terrt Rozier is also envious of kyrie and wants his position as the starting point guard, he sees himself as a starter in this league. He is gone.

When it comes to Marcus Smart he is not a Point guard but instead a combo guard. The celtics tried him at point guard earlier in his career and quickly realized that is not who he is. I don't even think he is a combo guard. He is not a true point guard that can run the offense effectively, i just don't think he has the skills to be a point guard, that is required for that position. Furthermore, he is not a good enough shooter to be a shooting guard. What he is a undersized small forward who plays good defense.

[bucknersrevenge]

Terry Rozier is not coming back. If he is kyrie is gone. Their relationship or lack of one can't be fixed. Terrt Rozier is also envious of kyrie and wants his position as the starting point guard, he sees himself as a starter in this league. He is gone.

When it comes to Marcus Smart he is not a Point guard but instead a combo guard. The celtics tried him at point guard earlier in his career and quickly realized that is not who he is. I don't even think he is a combo guard. He is not a true point guard that can run the offense effectively, i just don't think he has the skills to be a point guard, that is required for that position. Furthermore, he is not a good enough shooter to be a shooting guard. What he is a undersized small forward who plays good defense.

What's a "point guard" anymore? The moniker has become fairly irrelevant. Marcus Smart is an excellent passer, capable ballhandler, and solid floor general. Early in his career, he was just not ready to lead a team but over the last 2 years he's demonstrated increased Bball IQ and better finishing ability in the paint in addition to the obvious uptick in his 3-point shot. Plus, Stevens allows for facilitation from multiple positions and that would most certainly be the case here. Most "point guards" are really "scoring guards" now anyway. He'd be more than fine at the "guard" spot.

[Parliament10]

What is the resistance to seeing Marcus Smart as a starting-caliber point guard? That's what we drafted him for, originally.. Rozier would be a back-up combo guard getting 30-odd minutes a night..

I think that Smart was always our Mr Fix-it guy. He's also effective coming off Bench or Starting.

[Darth Celtic]

Non Kyrie/AD/KD, then it doesn't matter. We'll be a treadmilling 5 seed no matter what we do in the draft or free agency.

[bucknersrevenge]

Non Kyrie/AD/KD, then it doesn't matter. We'll be a treadmilling 5 seed no matter what we do in the draft or free agency.

Touche. If we wanted to we could probably end this thread right now then.

[Andrew McCeltic]

Right, but Danny is usually able to spin gold from straw, like.. Horford for Adams and Schroeder, Adams for Drummond, Schroeder/Morris for Kevin Love..

[BostonCouchGM]

Non Kyrie/AD/KD, then it doesn't matter. We'll be a treadmilling 5 seed no matter what we do in the draft or free agency.

5 seed is optimistic. Teams on the bottom (ATL, NY, CHI) could be drastically different due to FA and young players developing. Teams that were right under us (ORL, IND, BK) can also improve where we'd get worse. Only a 100% healthy Hayward and Horford coming back even gets us into the playoffs. For the #5 seed we'd need Tatum to take a big step up and for Danny to hit on his draft picks, the latter, which is almost definitely not happening going by his track record on draft night.

[zoyathedestroya]

Non Kyrie/AD/KD, then it doesn't matter. We'll be a treadmilling 5 seed no matter what we do in the draft or free agency.

Touche. If we wanted to we could probably end this thread right now then.

Just in case it was missed in the OP. Sorry I couldn't fit the note in the title.

P.S.
If your only comment would be "that team won't win anything blah blah blah," 'cos we won't have a top-5 talent anyway, this might not be the thread for you.

[Darth Celtic]

just because you say it's not the thread for us, doesn't mean we still can't point out that fact.

[zoyathedestroya]

Terry Rozier is not coming back. If he is kyrie is gone. Their relationship or lack of one can't be fixed. Terrt Rozier is also envious of kyrie and wants his position as the starting point guard, he sees himself as a starter in this league. He is gone.

When it comes to Marcus Smart he is not a Point guard but instead a combo guard. The celtics tried him at point guard earlier in his career and quickly realized that is not who he is. I don't even think he is a combo guard. He is not a true point guard that can run the offense effectively, i just don't think he has the skills to be a point guard, that is required for that position. Furthermore, he is not a good enough shooter to be a shooting guard. What he is a undersized small forward who plays good defense.

What's a "point guard" anymore? The moniker has become fairly irrelevant. Marcus Smart is an excellent passer, capable ballhandler, and solid floor general. Early in his career, he was just not ready to lead a team but over the last 2 years he's demonstrated increased Bball IQ and better finishing ability in the paint in addition to the obvious uptick in his 3-point shot. Plus, Stevens allows for facilitation from multiple positions and that would most certainly be the case here. Most "point guards" are really "scoring guards" now anyway. He'd be more than fine at the "guard" spot.

In case Kyrie is not back in the fold (which this thread is about), I'm all for Smart being the so-called point guard. You just need someone to set up the offense and call out plays, tell people where they need to be, know when to push, and when to run a half-court set, etc. No better guy to do it than the longest-tenured Celtic who knows Brad's entire playbook by now. I would prefer the "other guard" to be in the Ray Allen/Klay/Korver mold. Someone who doesn't need the ball in his hands at all times and who is very good at freeing himself via screens, cuts, and reading the defense. We'll also have Hayward who can initiate the offense from the top of the key and Horford from the post. No real need for a traditional point guard in an offensive system where you want the ball being sprayed around and everyone is involved.

It's different for everyone. Golden State doesn't really play Curry as the "point guard" for most of the game. Draymond can do that for them. Harden is more of the point guard in Houston with CP as their secondary playmaker. Simmons does most of the PG duties for Philly. And so on.

[zoyathedestroya]

just because you say it's not the thread for us, doesn't mean we still can't point out that fact.

It doesn't add anything to the pertinent discussion and only derails the thread like we're doing now.

[Ring7Banner18]

I've seen a lot of coverage and discussion about Kyrie and possible trades for AD, but not nearly as much regarding what the Celtics might do if Kyrie bolts. Main exception that I've come across would be the great series of articles that Smitty recently published on CelticsBlog. His final article includes links to all articles in the series: https://www.celticsblog.com/2019/5/23/18637145/how-the-celtics-summer-could-go-the-dreaming-big-option-nba-free-agency-kyrie-irving-kevin-durant

So, what contingency plans would you be looking into if you're Danny? Some of my thoughts and considerations:

1. Towards the top of the list is what to do with Hayward and Horford? My gut instinct is that Hayward would stay and Horford would end up elsewhere on a contender. For Hayward, it seems the safest option is to bring him back and rehab his trade value. It's difficult to see how his value could get lower 12 months from now (barring another injury). It's still worth dreaming up some creative trades, but I haven't come across any I'd love. Hayward + pics 20 and 22 to HOU for Capela and Eric Gordon? Then try and flip Gordon to contender at or before trade deadline to recoup a mid to late first (in sum essentially trading Gordon and a late first for Capela). Hayward to MIN for Wiggins and a future protected 1st? We try to get some more upside out of a similarly awful contract, and risk taking on the few extra years in his deal. Hayward to CHA for Biyombo, Williams, and one of Malik Monk, Miles Bridges, or a future protected 1st? Straight salary dump to move on from his deal a year early. Horford is trickier. He's about to be 33 y/o. If Kyrie bolts, I'm not sure it makes much sense to resign him to an extended deal. I could see him opting out if there's a contender willing to give him something like 4 years $80M, or opting in if there's no such market and then we trade him. Horford to HOU for Capela and Eric Gordon? Horford to OKC for Steven Adams and a 2nd round pick? Horford to POR for Evan Turner and Nurkic?
Horford to PHO for TJ Warren, Tyler Johnson, and Deanthony Melton?

2. PG position - In spite of Rozier's recent comments, I think the Celtics take the same exact approach as they did with Smart, i.e. wait and see what the market for him is like. If someone overpays (something like 5 years/$75M) he's gone. If not, I could see him coming back on a deal similar to Smart's. If no Kyrie or Rozier, it would seem clear we would have to make a move for some type of PG. I love the idea of a Kyrie sign and trade to the Nets for D'Angelo Russell, but I am not familiar enough with the CBA to know what would be possible. Darius Garland and/or Coby White could become targets for trading up in the draft. Perhaps there's a deal to be had with the Spurs who may look to move one of Bryn Forbes/Derrick White/Dejounte Murray.

3. Morris, Baynes, and Theis - Just like Rozier, I think the Celtics will let market dictate the fate of these players. If Baynes can get a multi year averaging around $5M per, he's probably gone. If he's looking at veteran min or biannual exceptions, he may opt in. Theis is probably the most likely to stay and get a multi year extension. I am very curious to see how Morris's free agency goes. We do have his Bird Rights so it's certainly possible he could be back. If more than $14M a year and/or longer than 3 years, he's probably gone. Would love to see him back on something like 2 years $28M but that may not be realistic.

4. Draft - They aren't staying at 14, 20 and 22 so something will happen. I see them either including most of these in a trade or moving up to the 4-10 range to target players like Darius Garland, Coby White, and Rui Hachimura.

[cloverleaf]

I've seen a lot of coverage and discussion about Kyrie and possible trades for AD, but not nearly as much regarding what the Celtics might do if Kyrie bolts. Main exception that I've come across would be the great series of articles that Smitty recently published on CelticsBlog. His final article includes links to all articles in the series: https://www.celticsblog.com/2019/5/23/18637145/how-the-celtics-summer-could-go-the-dreaming-big-option-nba-free-agency-kyrie-irving-kevin-durant

So, what contingency plans would you be looking into if you're Danny? Some of my thoughts and considerations:

1. Towards the top of the list is what to do with Hayward and Horford? My gut instinct is that Hayward would stay and Horford would end up elsewhere on a contender. For Hayward, it seems the safest option is to bring him back and rehab his trade value. It's difficult to see how his value could get lower 12 months from now (barring another injury). It's still worth dreaming up some creative trades, but I haven't come across any I'd love. Hayward + pics 20 and 22 to HOU for Capela and Eric Gordon? Then try and flip Gordon to contender at or before trade deadline to recoup a mid to late first (in sum essentially trading Gordon and a late first for Capela). Hayward to MIN for Wiggins and a future protected 1st? We try to get some more upside out of a similarly awful contract, and risk taking on the few extra years in his deal. Hayward to CHA for Biyombo, Williams, and one of Malik Monk, Miles Bridges, or a future protected 1st? Straight salary dump to move on from his deal a year early. Horford is trickier. He's about to be 33 y/o. If Kyrie bolts, I'm not sure it makes much sense to resign him to an extended deal. I could see him opting out if there's a contender willing to give him something like 4 years $80M, or opting in if there's no such market and then we trade him. Horford to HOU for Capela and Eric Gordon? Horford to OKC for Steven Adams and a 2nd round pick? Horford to POR for Evan Turner and Nurkic?
Horford to PHO for TJ Warren, Tyler Johnson, and Deanthony Melton?

2. PG position - In spite of Rozier's recent comments, I think the Celtics take the same exact approach as they did with Smart, i.e. wait and see what the market for him is like. If someone overpays (something like 5 years/$75M) he's gone. If not, I could see him coming back on a deal similar to Smart's. If no Kyrie or Rozier, it would seem clear we would have to make a move for some type of PG. I love the idea of a Kyrie sign and trade to the Nets for D'Angelo Russell, but I am not familiar enough with the CBA to know what would be possible. Darius Garland and/or Coby White could become targets for trading up in the draft. Perhaps there's a deal to be had with the Spurs who may look to move one of Bryn Forbes/Derrick White/Dejounte Murray.

3. Morris, Baynes, and Theis - Just like Rozier, I think the Celtics will let market dictate the fate of these players. If Baynes can get a multi year averaging around $5M per, he's probably gone. If he's looking at veteran min or biannual exceptions, he may opt in. Theis is probably the most likely to stay and get a multi year extension. I am very curious to see how Morris's free agency goes. We do have his Bird Rights so it's certainly possible he could be back. If more than $14M a year and/or longer than 3 years, he's probably gone. Would love to see him back on something like 2 years $28M but that may not be realistic.

4. Draft - They aren't staying at 14, 20 and 22 so something will happen. I see them either including most of these in a trade or moving up to the 4-10 range to target players like Darius Garland, Coby White, and Rui Hachimura.

Hayward is going to return to health and rather than being some sort of albatross that like his contract you seem set on trading, will likely be the C's best player, in that scenario, next season. And Rozier has widely been speculated as a returnee if Kyrie isn't here. I agree that White is intriguing as a pick, but he's not ready to go into the rotation as a major player right off.

[celticfan42487]

Trade for AD.

Anytime the answer isn't trading a non MVP for the mid twenties MVP level player, the answer is wrong.

[chrisab123]

There's no "IF" he's 120 percent gone short of getting KD somehow. You either trade for AD or you end up losing Horford in FA which will trigger a rebuild since Big Al wants to win a title and a Rozier Brown Tatum Hayward Horford team is not even close to that.

You could always see if OKC is willing to trade George or Houston is willing to deal Harden but not likely.

[CelticFaninLBC]

Horford for Capela, with others thrown in to make contracts work seems plausible.

Maybe something like Horford, Morris S&T, and a pick or 2 for Capela and Gordon??

[djFan71]

I've seen a lot of coverage and discussion about Kyrie and possible trades for AD, but not nearly as much regarding what the Celtics might do if Kyrie bolts...

Sorry to do it to one of your first posts, and welcome, but I'm merging this into the existing thread on the topic. Lots of good posts in here already if you want to see what people have been thinking.

[GoGreen]

I honestly wouldn't mind keeping Jaylen and Tatum around. Rozy, too. Let them grow together, and down the line, hope we can fetch a star on FA? Maybe draft one?

Not sure Danny would go for that though. He wants to win now. Me thinks he takes a gamble on AD

[Andrew McCeltic]

No idea what’s happening behind the scenes, but there is a possibility Horford decides to opt out and sign somewhere else.. except Indiana is the only team I can see having cap space and a role - they’ll probably spend the money on a point guard, if they don’t use it just to re-up the players they have.

Best case is that he’s either opting in to his last year or signing a longer deal, maybe with a trade veto - so that if we do have to move in a different direction, we send him to a contender like OKC or a re-tooled Houston.

[zoyathedestroya]

Works in the trade checker.

POR gets Hayward
BOS gets Holiday, Harkless (expiring)
NOP gets Turner (expiring), 2019 BOS #14, 2020 POR 2nd

Assumption here: Both Rozier and Irving are gone.

I don't think NOLA can get two 1sts for Holiday so that might be as good as it gets, return-wise. Portland banks on Hayward's continued improvement. If not, it's still a solid gamble with just expirings and a 2nd going out.

I personally wouldn't do it since I'm fine with Smart as a starting PG but if Cs aren't that confident in him and they want to free up the wing position for Brown/Tatum, the move is palatable. Harkless is a nice bonus swing depth.

Holiday / Brown / Tatum / Horford / Baynes
Smart / shooter-scorer FA* / Ojeleye / Harkless / Williams
Wanamaker / Theis / #20 / #22

* might not take MLE: Matthews, Redick, Danny Green, Ross
might take MLE: Curry, Bullock, Lamb

At some point next season, I want Williams starting but that might be wishful thinking.