BOOM SMITH MARKET

[JonFromVA]

Yeah I'm starting to get the feeling they may be looking to package him with another player... with on court value as incentive instead of just the limited market for Smiths salary savings. If they are going to take back large $ to get a draft asset or two

Good point, our #1 pick's are going to cost us something like $6M to $10M, and we're already up against the luxury tax; but we do have until the end of next season to get back under the luxury tax, so, there's a lot of ways this could play out:

1) We can trade JR for less money than his salary;
2) We can include cash in a trade to offset salary;
3) We can make a trade later in the season where we move an expiring for a less expensive but bad contract;
4) We can trade an expensive positive asset like Kevin or Tristan for a cheaper positive asset;
5) We can buy a player out or stretch waive a player;
6) Or ... we can just go over the cap and not reset the luxury tax this year.

The key is someone had better make it worth our while to deal JR ... we don't need to mess up our cap situation just to snag another 26th pick in the draft.

Yeah, it's needs to be a good pick so we can justify attaching that first to another player if need be to get under the tax. If not, just cut JR.

I guess we'll see what Koby does. I didn't like the fact that we gave the Lakers a #1 to help them dump Clarkson and Nance Jr. If we'd gotten their 2019 #1, we'd be pretty happy right now. But we still had LeBron back then and Altman was under pressure to do something to clean-up the mess he'd made and give us a shot in the playoffs.

But given all his options, he'd have to be incompetent to trade JR for a pick just to trade it away later to dump salary.

[Stillwater]

I think we end up with a mid first and a semi reasonable value player under contract for 2 years

[JonFromVA]

I think we end up with a mid first and a semi reasonable value player under contract for 2 years

Heck, if this draft is really as bad past the top-3 as some people seem to think, once the lottery is done; there may be lottery teams selling their pick because they don't want to pay 10's of millions just to develop a mediocre prospect.

On the flip side ... having 3 picks in the first round of this draft isn't going to kick-start our rebuild if the talent isn't there and/or we can't find it.

[Stillwater]

I think we end up with a mid first and a semi reasonable value player under contract for 2 years

Heck, if this draft is really as bad past the top-3 as some people seem to think, once the lottery is done; there may be lottery teams selling their pick because they don't want to pay 10's of millions just to develop a mediocre prospect.

On the flip side ... having 3 picks in the first round of this draft isn't going to kick-start our rebuild if the talent isn't there and/or we can't find it.

There is plenty of high upside gems in every draft...finding them is the problem.
Overall this draft is lined up with what appears to be average ceiling role players as the majority either 2nd 3rd or 4th year college prospects with high bb iq and skills that are above average but unfortunately for the most part are prospects lacking elite measurable's and or athleticism to dominate at the next level.
Then there are what CLE should be targeting ; frosh or soph's with high level athleticism & or measurable's but have questionable upside based on a myriad of things whether it's a lack of motor, a lack of solid fundamentals on both sides of the ball , or just 1 glaring problem such as no range on shot,bad mechanics or can't play without the ball in their hands.
They can find solid role players if that is their goal pretty easily...it's finding the gem frosh or soph or intl. that others overlooked that could make having added picks highly beneficial to this roster long term.
All that being said who they take after the lottery with Houston pick and esp mid 1st if they get 1 will determine the course of next season and how patient they are willing to be and if the 2019-20 season will be one like 18-19 where development is the mantra.
You cannot build a roster drafting upperclassman role players and expect to contend with the pieces already in place so I don't think they go that route...I think they go for the boom bust picks and develop them

[JonFromVA]

I think we end up with a mid first and a semi reasonable value player under contract for 2 years

Heck, if this draft is really as bad past the top-3 as some people seem to think, once the lottery is done; there may be lottery teams selling their pick because they don't want to pay 10's of millions just to develop a mediocre prospect.

On the flip side ... having 3 picks in the first round of this draft isn't going to kick-start our rebuild if the talent isn't there and/or we can't find it.

There is plenty of high upside gems in every draft...finding them is the problem.
Overall this draft is lined up with what appears to be average ceiling role players as the majority either 2nd 3rd or 4th year college prospects with high bb iq and skills that are above average but unfortunately for the most part are prospects lacking elite measurable's and or athleticism to dominate at the next level.
Then there are what CLE should be targeting ; frosh or soph's with high level athleticism & or measurable's but have questionable upside based on a myriad of things whether it's a lack of motor, a lack of solid fundamentals on both sides of the ball , or just 1 glaring problem such as no range on shot,bad mechanics or can't play without the ball in their hands.
They can find solid role players if that is their goal pretty easily...it's finding the gem frosh or soph or intl. that others overlooked that could make having added picks highly beneficial to this roster long term.
All that being said who they take after the lottery with Houston pick and esp mid 1st if they get 1 will determine the course of next season and how patient they are willing to be and if the 2019-20 season will be one like 18-19 where development is the mantra.
You cannot build a roster drafting upperclassman role players and expect to contend with the pieces already in place so I don't think they go that route...I think they go for the boom bust picks and develop them

lol, I think I can point to a draft example to make pretty much any case. There are both gems and landmines to be found among all the various types of draft picks.

It's just hard to have much faith in the Cavs ... even when they nailed the talent evaluation part, they either failed to develop prospects like Danny Green and Joe Harris or flubbed up by not offering Delly a cheap contract extension; or most infamously couldn't figure out how to keep LeBron and Kyrie happy.

[Stillwater]

Heck, if this draft is really as bad past the top-3 as some people seem to think, once the lottery is done; there may be lottery teams selling their pick because they don't want to pay 10's of millions just to develop a mediocre prospect.

On the flip side ... having 3 picks in the first round of this draft isn't going to kick-start our rebuild if the talent isn't there and/or we can't find it.

There is plenty of high upside gems in every draft...finding them is the problem.
Overall this draft is lined up with what appears to be average ceiling role players as the majority either 2nd 3rd or 4th year college prospects with high bb iq and skills that are above average but unfortunately for the most part are prospects lacking elite measurable's and or athleticism to dominate at the next level.
Then there are what CLE should be targeting ; frosh or soph's with high level athleticism & or measurable's but have questionable upside based on a myriad of things whether it's a lack of motor, a lack of solid fundamentals on both sides of the ball , or just 1 glaring problem such as no range on shot,bad mechanics or can't play without the ball in their hands.
They can find solid role players if that is their goal pretty easily...it's finding the gem frosh or soph or intl. that others overlooked that could make having added picks highly beneficial to this roster long term.
All that being said who they take after the lottery with Houston pick and esp mid 1st if they get 1 will determine the course of next season and how patient they are willing to be and if the 2019-20 season will be one like 18-19 where development is the mantra.
You cannot build a roster drafting upperclassman role players and expect to contend with the pieces already in place so I don't think they go that route...I think they go for the boom bust picks and develop them

lol, I think I can point to a draft example to make pretty much any case. There are both gems and landmines to be found among all the various types of draft picks.

It's just hard to have much faith in the Cavs ... even when they nailed the talent evaluation part, they either failed to develop prospects like Danny Green and Joe Harris or flubbed up by not offering Delly a cheap contract extension; or most infamously couldn't figure out how to keep LeBron and Kyrie happy.

Any org can be under scrutiny for the mistakes locked in files...but those failures holding weight now with different decision makers isn't reasonable to me.
Unless you think Gilbert is the issue,I don't especially after all those hard lessons.
If he's willing to stay in the tax to get a shot at Kabengele or Jalen Lecque mid 1st ,he's a better rebuild owner than most.

[JonFromVA]

There is plenty of high upside gems in every draft...finding them is the problem.
Overall this draft is lined up with what appears to be average ceiling role players as the majority either 2nd 3rd or 4th year college prospects with high bb iq and skills that are above average but unfortunately for the most part are prospects lacking elite measurable's and or athleticism to dominate at the next level.
Then there are what CLE should be targeting ; frosh or soph's with high level athleticism & or measurable's but have questionable upside based on a myriad of things whether it's a lack of motor, a lack of solid fundamentals on both sides of the ball , or just 1 glaring problem such as no range on shot,bad mechanics or can't play without the ball in their hands.
They can find solid role players if that is their goal pretty easily...it's finding the gem frosh or soph or intl. that others overlooked that could make having added picks highly beneficial to this roster long term.
All that being said who they take after the lottery with Houston pick and esp mid 1st if they get 1 will determine the course of next season and how patient they are willing to be and if the 2019-20 season will be one like 18-19 where development is the mantra.
You cannot build a roster drafting upperclassman role players and expect to contend with the pieces already in place so I don't think they go that route...I think they go for the boom bust picks and develop them

lol, I think I can point to a draft example to make pretty much any case. There are both gems and landmines to be found among all the various types of draft picks.

It's just hard to have much faith in the Cavs ... even when they nailed the talent evaluation part, they either failed to develop prospects like Danny Green and Joe Harris or flubbed up by not offering Delly a cheap contract extension; or most infamously couldn't figure out how to keep LeBron and Kyrie happy.

Any org can be under scrutiny for the mistakes locked in files...but those failures holding weight now with different decision makers isn't reasonable to me.
Unless you think Gilbert is the issue,I don't especially after all those hard lessons.
If he's willing to stay in the tax to get a shot at Kabengele or Jalen Lecque mid 1st ,he's a better rebuild owner than most.

Gilbert does meddle plus he's hired and promoted those decision makers. We can only hope they're learning on the fly ....

[Stillwater]

SO I'm thinking about a couple of different trade possibilities some of whom have the Cavs giving up a good rotation player with the Smith contract to get multiple draft assets for a long rebuild... not sure and really not sold they would or should give up JC for example given how well he played in the 6th man role for us, but I think it is a very possible avenue to consider to get multiple firsts.
here's one that makes some sense if they want to eat salaries that expires in 2020:
https://basketball.realgm.com/tradechecker/saved_trade/7192274
The parameters are as follows;
first off Narlens Noel takes his PO before the draft...
Cavs send Smith and Clarkson to OKC, and the Rockets pick at 26th to ORL.
OKC sends Noel,Roberson ,their 2019 1st(21st pick) & a future 2nd to CLE & OKC sends Schroeder to ORL.
ORL sends Mozgov to CLE with their 2019 1st (16th) & a future 2nd to OKC.
----------------
Another option :
The more simple rumored Nets trade:
https://basketball.realgm.com/tradechecker/saved_trade/7192276
Crabbe is already exercising his PO to make this possible:
CLE sends Smith to BKN
BKN sends Crabbe,and Nets 2019 1st(17th)[ or maybe Cavs settle for Nets rights to Denver pick @ 27th and the NY 2nd at 31 if offers are no better across the league]
-------------------
I'm not sold CLE will have interest in eating any more contracts of Centers unless they have offers for Thompson or Henson in play. but very well could be expecting to at the dl
-
The only other possibilities I can think of are not optimal enough to justify unless a late lottery pick is in play for CLE.
Hopefully they come up with something to get some value

[Revenged25]

So with the change to the FA start time being 6 PM on the 30th, that means JR's contract is even more valuable. If a team can get immediate commitments from FAs and need to clear space, JR can be shipped off and waived right away.

[afarmenian]

Good point, our #1 pick's are going to cost us something like $6M to $10M, and we're already up against the luxury tax; but we do have until the end of next season to get back under the luxury tax, so, there's a lot of ways this could play out:

1) We can trade JR for less money than his salary;
2) We can include cash in a trade to offset salary;
3) We can make a trade later in the season where we move an expiring for a less expensive but bad contract;
4) We can trade an expensive positive asset like Kevin or Tristan for a cheaper positive asset;
5) We can buy a player out or stretch waive a player;
6) Or ... we can just go over the cap and not reset the luxury tax this year.

The key is someone had better make it worth our while to deal JR ... we don't need to mess up our cap situation just to snag another 26th pick in the draft.

Yeah, it's needs to be a good pick so we can justify attaching that first to another player if need be to get under the tax. If not, just cut JR.

I guess we'll see what Koby does. I didn't like the fact that we gave the Lakers a #1 to help them dump Clarkson and Nance Jr. If we'd gotten their 2019 #1, we'd be pretty happy right now. But we still had LeBron back then and Altman was under pressure to do something to clean-up the mess he'd made and give us a shot in the playoffs.

But given all his options, he'd have to be incompetent to trade JR for a pick just to trade it away later to dump salary.

lol what the hell do you guys care if we are under or over the tax at this point? This rebuild will be at least two more years so I doubt we are getting a max FA anytime soon.

[jbk1234]

Yeah, it's needs to be a good pick so we can justify attaching that first to another player if need be to get under the tax. If not, just cut JR.

I guess we'll see what Koby does. I didn't like the fact that we gave the Lakers a #1 to help them dump Clarkson and Nance Jr. If we'd gotten their 2019 #1, we'd be pretty happy right now. But we still had LeBron back then and Altman was under pressure to do something to clean-up the mess he'd made and give us a shot in the playoffs.

But given all his options, he'd have to be incompetent to trade JR for a pick just to trade it away later to dump salary.

lol what the hell do you guys care if we are under or over the tax at this point? This rebuild will be at least two more years so I doubt we are getting a max FA anytime soon.

Because you have to stay out of the tax for two consecutive years to get out of the repeater tax. If we go back in this year, then the summer of 2022 is the earliest we can get out of it.

[dean456]

Yeah, it's needs to be a good pick so we can justify attaching that first to another player if need be to get under the tax. If not, just cut JR.

I guess we'll see what Koby does. I didn't like the fact that we gave the Lakers a #1 to help them dump Clarkson and Nance Jr. If we'd gotten their 2019 #1, we'd be pretty happy right now. But we still had LeBron back then and Altman was under pressure to do something to clean-up the mess he'd made and give us a shot in the playoffs.

But given all his options, he'd have to be incompetent to trade JR for a pick just to trade it away later to dump salary.

lol what the hell do you guys care if we are under or over the tax at this point? This rebuild will be at least two more years so I doubt we are getting a max FA anytime soon.

I was thinking the same thing. Looking at your cap situation I would think you would be looking at moves that will get you off of Love's contract now for two main reasons he doesn't match the time frame of the other younger prospects on your team and your 1st rounder next season goes to the Hawks unless you are in the top 10. So unless you plan on sitting Love again all next season (reducing his value further) then there's a chance you may not have a 1st rounder next season.

Also on the Miami trading our 13th pick and needing win now players. We are pretty much the opposite of that. We are ready to move on from our post Lebron team, James Johnson, Waiters, Whiteside and Dragic. We are trying to get more draft assets so we can build on our young core. Also after trading away all our future picks the last few years our picks have become really valuable to us at the moment. I don't see us trading our pick unless we move up the draft.

[Stillwater]

Yeah, it's needs to be a good pick so we can justify attaching that first to another player if need be to get under the tax. If not, just cut JR.

I guess we'll see what Koby does. I didn't like the fact that we gave the Lakers a #1 to help them dump Clarkson and Nance Jr. If we'd gotten their 2019 #1, we'd be pretty happy right now. But we still had LeBron back then and Altman was under pressure to do something to clean-up the mess he'd made and give us a shot in the playoffs.

But given all his options, he'd have to be incompetent to trade JR for a pick just to trade it away later to dump salary.

lol what the hell do you guys care if we are under or over the tax at this point? This rebuild will be at least two more years so I doubt we are getting a max FA anytime soon.

Nobody cares about the tax...just trying to project the outcome from the mindset of those who foot the bill for it.
I am under the impression from my perception of the situation that Gilbert has so much capitol it is unlikely he would balk at the idea of staying in the repeater if the pitch was something substantial and those with the means to follow through on a trade would not be settling for something less than advantageous long term in the rebuilding process esp if that rebuild was expedited by said deal making the positives of any trade outweigh the positives of just cutting J.R.
I believe the org is not of the mindset that the positives of losing Smith for nothing potentially outweigh the cons of staying in the tax when young cheap talent could be added by taking on a veteran or 2 for a yr or 2.
So the only question is; do the minority owners and org under Gilbert have his best interest in mind based on their own interests or the betterment of the roster if he is unable to resume his chairman duty before the draft.

[Revenged25]

I guess we'll see what Koby does. I didn't like the fact that we gave the Lakers a #1 to help them dump Clarkson and Nance Jr. If we'd gotten their 2019 #1, we'd be pretty happy right now. But we still had LeBron back then and Altman was under pressure to do something to clean-up the mess he'd made and give us a shot in the playoffs.

But given all his options, he'd have to be incompetent to trade JR for a pick just to trade it away later to dump salary.

lol what the hell do you guys care if we are under or over the tax at this point? This rebuild will be at least two more years so I doubt we are getting a max FA anytime soon.

I was thinking the same thing. Looking at your cap situation I would think you would be looking at moves that will get you off of Love's contract now for two main reasons he doesn't match the time frame of the other younger prospects on your team and your 1st rounder next season goes to the Hawks unless you are in the top 10. So unless you plan on sitting Love again all next season (reducing his value further) then there's a chance you may not have a 1st rounder next season.

Also on the Miami trading our 13th pick and needing win now players. We are pretty much the opposite of that. We are ready to move on from our post Lebron team, James Johnson, Waiters, Whiteside and Dragic. We are trying to get more draft assets so we can build on our young core. Also after trading away all our future picks the last few years our picks have become really valuable to us at the moment. I don't see us trading our pick unless we move up the draft.

I know I'm in the minority, but I think if the Cavs are healthy, they are a darkhorse for a 7th or 8th seed next season. They'll finally be playing in an actual system and won't be running around with their heads cut off with no real direction due to injuries pushing the team into an early tank mode. I think if the Cavs had decided that they weren't going to tank after Love initially got hurt, that Love would've been back a lot sooner than he was.

Now do I think that the Cavs team would be ready to be anything other than a perpetual 5-8 seed in the playoffs at that point going forward. Absolutely not unless they got a massive FA signing, hit big on a mid 1st, like San Antonio with Kawhi, or Sexton/Cedi/Nance all stepping up their games drastically. Sucks to be in that position as a franchise, but it's also better than being in perpetual tank mode going forward, especially as we've seen with the new lottery odds finishing 11-14 isn't as bad since you have more chances to jump into the top 4.

[JonFromVA]

I guess we'll see what Koby does. I didn't like the fact that we gave the Lakers a #1 to help them dump Clarkson and Nance Jr. If we'd gotten their 2019 #1, we'd be pretty happy right now. But we still had LeBron back then and Altman was under pressure to do something to clean-up the mess he'd made and give us a shot in the playoffs.

But given all his options, he'd have to be incompetent to trade JR for a pick just to trade it away later to dump salary.

lol what the hell do you guys care if we are under or over the tax at this point? This rebuild will be at least two more years so I doubt we are getting a max FA anytime soon.

Because you have to stay out of the tax for two consecutive years to get out of the repeater tax. If we go back in this year, then the summer of 2022 is the earliest we can get out of it.

According to the Larry Coon FAQ: you're a repeat offender if you've been in the tax for 3 out of the last 4 seasons.

[JonFromVA]

I guess we'll see what Koby does. I didn't like the fact that we gave the Lakers a #1 to help them dump Clarkson and Nance Jr. If we'd gotten their 2019 #1, we'd be pretty happy right now. But we still had LeBron back then and Altman was under pressure to do something to clean-up the mess he'd made and give us a shot in the playoffs.

But given all his options, he'd have to be incompetent to trade JR for a pick just to trade it away later to dump salary.

lol what the hell do you guys care if we are under or over the tax at this point? This rebuild will be at least two more years so I doubt we are getting a max FA anytime soon.

Nobody cares about the tax...just trying to project the outcome from the mindset of those who foot the bill for it.
I am under the impression from my perception of the situation that Gilbert has so much capitol it is unlikely he would balk at the idea of staying in the repeater if the pitch was something substantial and those with the means to follow through on a trade would not be settling for something less than advantageous long term in the rebuilding process esp if that rebuild was expedited by said deal making the positives of any trade outweigh the positives of just cutting J.R.
I believe the org is not of the mindset that the positives of losing Smith for nothing potentially outweigh the cons of staying in the tax when young cheap talent could be added by taking on a veteran or 2 for a yr or 2.
So the only question is; do the minority owners and org under Gilbert have his best interest in mind based on their own interests or the betterment of the roster if he is unable to resume his chairman duty before the draft.

If it was looking like Dan wasn't going to be able to continue running the team, I imagine the FO would be instructed to focus on increasing the value of the team to prepare for selling it. In the past, that would mean making cost cutting moves, but hard to say in this environment. An aggressive rebuild plan might be a lot easier to sell to an owner plunking down $1B+ in this day and age.

[jbk1234]

lol what the hell do you guys care if we are under or over the tax at this point? This rebuild will be at least two more years so I doubt we are getting a max FA anytime soon.

Because you have to stay out of the tax for two consecutive years to get out of the repeater tax. If we go back in this year, then the summer of 2022 is the earliest we can get out of it.

According to the Larry Coon FAQ: you're a repeat offender if you've been in the tax for 3 out of the last 4 seasons.

So the Cavs would be subject to the repeater tax this year, and if they re-enter the tax in 2021, they'd have to dump in 2022 get out

[JonFromVA]

Because you have to stay out of the tax for two consecutive years to get out of the repeater tax. If we go back in this year, then the summer of 2022 is the earliest we can get out of it.

According to the Larry Coon FAQ: you're a repeat offender if you've been in the tax for 3 out of the last 4 seasons.

So the Cavs would be subject to the repeater tax this year, and if they re-enter the tax in 2021, they'd have to dump in 2022 get out

2018 - tax
2019 - no tax
2020 - tax (deal JR)
2021 - no tax (lots of contracts coming off the books)
2022 - we can re-enter the tax
2023 - if we pay tax, we're back in the repeater

But keep in mind, even if we trade JR and enter the luxury tax, we have until the end of the season to get back under via trade, buyout, stretch waive, etc.

Anyway, the point is we just need to get a fantastic deal if we're going to deal JR. With a team of mostly young players it really shouldn't be that hard to either stay out of the tax, or pay very little of it.

[Stillwater]

SO Miami is supposedly looking to clear some salary by trading for Smith https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2839432-jr-smith-trade-rumors-heat-eyeing-salary-designed-deal-for-cavaliers-sg

Here are some trades I would think the Cavs might do:
1. James Johnson G'd 15.5mil 19-20 with 16+mil PO 2020 + 13th pick for Smith https://basketball.realgm.com/tradechecker/saved_trade/7202921
2. ridiculous 4 team monster: https://basketball.realgm.com/tradechecker/saved_trade/7202950
Cavs trade Smith to Miami along with a future 2nd. Cavs get Solomon Hill 1 yr 13.3mil unrestricted in 2020 from the Pels,the #22 pick from Boston for taking on Hill,
Semi Ojeleye for providing the salary saving to Miami and Bostons 2019 2nd.

Miami trades Olynyk to the Pels, Jones to Boston. Miami receives Smith and Boston's 2020 2nd from Atlanta, and 2023 2nd from CLE via Portland. 2nds for giving up Olynyk.


Pels trade Davis to Boston , Hill to CLE. Pels get #14,Memphis 2020, Tatum,Smart,Yabusele from Boston , Olynyk from Pels.

Boston trades #14,Memphis 2020,Tatum,Smart,Yabusele to Pels,trades Ojeleye 20, and 2019 2nd to CLE, 2020 2nd from ATL to Miami .Bostons gets AD from Pels and Jones from Miami.

Cavs walk away with 1 yr of Hill who is serviceable, Ojeleye, the 22nd which can be combined with 26 to move up in the draft and #51.

[Richfield]

I enjoy taking in the creativity in your proposals.

In this one, does Miami have to think twice about what they're enabling?

Yes maybe they get Butler and maybe another this summer. But do they want to help facilitate AD going to Boston, and then have to face them every year in the playoffs?

Or do they assume Boston can attain AD either way, and jump in on the action to benefit themselves?

And I'd ask the same question for Boston, but maybe breaking up the Sixers by increasing the chance of Butler's departure is something that would appeal to them. Maybe that's a point Riley could sell to Ainge and other EC contenders in any deal.