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GM Philosophies and Theory - general offseason discussion

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Re: GM Philosophies and Theory - general offseason discussion 

Post#161 » by MagicFan101 » Mon Jun 3, 2019 9:11 pm

ezzzp wrote:
basketballRob wrote:
MagicFan101 wrote:
Question: Are the Bobcats happy today that they gave Batum that contract to keep him in town?


If Sacramento or whoever else throws a major offer at Vuc we have to think long term.
I remember Toronto going to the conference finals and giving the Cavs a great series with Biz.

When his price tag was too high they let him walk and it was better in the long term.

If Vuc walks we just have to replace him. Once you have a way to play you just replace players you lose.

Sent from my SM-G965U using RealGM mobile app


Biyombo was a bench player, not the reason Toronto were in the playoffs. That's not even remotely close to same situation. Letting DeRozan or Lowry walk for zero return would be the similar comparison.

You also don't just "replace" a 20/10 guy at peak prime, one who just finished putting up elite advanced metric numbers and was the focal point of your system and anchored a top 10 defense. The way the Magic played was highly reliant on Vucevic's unique and very difficult to replace skill set.

Free agents don't usually flock to small market teams that just lost their best player. They know where that team is headed - only people in denial think that a top free agent will sign to a projected lottery team without the cap space to even offer max money.



The best player on fringe playoff team isn’t necessarily a great player to build around ...

Why is that the case for you?

In an earlier post you claimed your philosophies were shared by the best basketball franchises and minds in the NBA ...

The best teams build around franchise altering TALENT ... Vuc is not that.
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Re: GM Philosophies and Theory - general offseason discussion 

Post#162 » by Skin » Mon Jun 3, 2019 9:53 pm

ezzzp wrote:
Skin wrote:
MagicFan101 wrote:
Question: Are the Bobcats happy today that they gave Batum that contract to keep him in town?


If Sacramento or whoever else throws a major offer at Vuc we have to think long term.

I'd rather have Batum than Fournier, but that is just another classic example in a long line of examples where teams get screwed overpaying for a player. ezzzp doesn't want to hear it because it destroys his reality. No surprise to me that he wants another example of a hot mess in Mike Conley's contract. The guy literally cannot stay healthy. Let me guess, he wants John Wall as a backup?


That's BS. My reality is same philosophy of the best NBA franchises and best minds in BB...your reality is based on failed tank gimmicks and chasing bb trends pushed by bloggers and mainstream media chasing clicks.

No you're still in denial. Your philosophy is being a Vuc fanboy because he's your only solution to being competitive.
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Re: GM Philosophies and Theory - general offseason discussion 

Post#163 » by ezzzp » Mon Jun 3, 2019 9:57 pm

MagicFan101 wrote:
ezzzp wrote:
Biyombo was a bench player, not the reason Toronto were in the playoffs. That's not even remotely close to same situation. Letting DeRozan or Lowry walk for zero return would be the similar comparison.

You also don't just "replace" a 20/10 guy at peak prime, one who just finished putting up elite advanced metric numbers and was the focal point of your system and anchored a top 10 defense. The way the Magic played was highly reliant on Vucevic's unique and very difficult to replace skill set.

Free agents don't usually flock to small market teams that just lost their best player. They know where that team is headed - only people in denial think that a top free agent will sign to a projected lottery team without the cap space to even offer max money.



The best player on fringe playoff team isn’t necessarily a great player to build around ...

Why is that the case for you?

In an earlier post you claimed your philosophies were shared by the best basketball franchises and minds in the NBA ...

The best teams build around franchise altering TALENT ... Vuc is not that.


Retaining a player is not always about building around him. There are different contexts and reasons for retention.

For the Magic, their success is reliant on how the young players develop and how they accumulate and manage assets to maximize ALL their vehicles for improvement. The philosophy of the best teams for that is to maintain a competitive context with a stable infrastructure. In fact that setting is how they often acquire or develop that TALENT. Vucevic is a big factor in maintaining that context, and that is absolutely not easily replaceable.

There is an endless list of squandered TALENT on bad teams.
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Re: GM Philosophies and Theory - general offseason discussion 

Post#164 » by MagicMatic » Mon Jun 3, 2019 9:59 pm

ezzzp wrote:
Skin wrote:The denial is pure. Of course you are Vuc fan boy. That's the reason why you keep ignoring what is being told to you over and over again.

If you were solely about staying competitive, then you would at least be open to the option that the cap savings from not spending money on Vuc over the term of his next contract could be used in other ways that could still keep the Magic competitive. Resigning Vuc is NOT the only option.

Of course your rebuttle is "How will you spend it? How do you know that person will help? Do you have clairvoyant powers?" Yet, you bring up Conley and can't take what you dish.

Nobody has argued that we should start tanking again. Just because you think that will happen if we let Vuc go (clairvoyance btw) doesn't it make it the only possible outcome. Don't get confused... Yes, some people have said we should've tanked harder in the past 5-7 years of this era of Magic basketball... but that is a different argument than the talks related to us going forward.

My stance has been that we should try to be competitive, but in a way that supports WeHam's vision and timeline of the players that they already invested highly in. Isaac and Bamba are far and away their 2 strongest core pieces. In only his second year, Isaac is already a starter providing an impact. If Jonathon Simmons were here, Isaac would've been unnecessarily sharing minutes with him. Bamba may only need another year or two to start being a heavily impactful player.

I'm open to Vuc on a 2-3 year deal, but I think the reality is he will be looking for a 4-5 year deal and that is simply a roadblock. AG has been WeHam's biggest and longest contract signing. I would suggest bringing in players similar to AG's age range that can grow together with him... Or if our options at 16 are not entirely desirable, trade up in this year's draft to secure another strong core player... Or draft players who have more years in college and are more ready to help right away... Or trade our vets for other vets that fit better along WeHam's vision for the make up of their team. None of those suggestions are pro-tank (which is the belief you think I have at this point).


Stop trying to change the topic to hide that you (and MagicMatic and Martinzisfraud) keep getting pulverized by people with actual bbIQ. LMAO and now you are trying to paint me as a Vucevic fanboy? :lol: Wow, you really are getting desperate. That's almost as hilarious as this closeted-tanker nonsense...nobody believes you.

Your stance has never been to stay competitive, LMAO. You and MagicMatic/Martinzisfraud have complained endlessly about the FO's patient approach...and now you are trying to pass off "their vision and timeline?" smh. Westman and Hammond's past history and their actions with the Magic are ABSOLUTELY not in line with yours. If it was they would have traded Vucevic and Ross, not had an evaluation year, not pushed for the playoffs etc. But nice try to spin that LMAO.


You are in straight up fantasy land with homer levels of delusion son. “Pulverized by people with BbIQ?” LMAO. Ok so you are a child and a troll ? Add it to the list I guess. Also, saying **** like this is making it personal when nobody targeted you.

You have an opinion and we have ours. Just because you can’t accept it doesn’t mean you are “pulverizing” arguments or others have “low BBIQ”. You’re a dork for even saying such nonsense.
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Re: GM Philosophies and Theory - general offseason discussion 

Post#165 » by MagicFan101 » Mon Jun 3, 2019 10:01 pm

ezzzp wrote:
MagicFan101 wrote:
ezzzp wrote:
Biyombo was a bench player, not the reason Toronto were in the playoffs. That's not even remotely close to same situation. Letting DeRozan or Lowry walk for zero return would be the similar comparison.

You also don't just "replace" a 20/10 guy at peak prime, one who just finished putting up elite advanced metric numbers and was the focal point of your system and anchored a top 10 defense. The way the Magic played was highly reliant on Vucevic's unique and very difficult to replace skill set.

Free agents don't usually flock to small market teams that just lost their best player. They know where that team is headed - only people in denial think that a top free agent will sign to a projected lottery team without the cap space to even offer max money.



The best player on fringe playoff team isn’t necessarily a great player to build around ...

Why is that the case for you?

In an earlier post you claimed your philosophies were shared by the best basketball franchises and minds in the NBA ...

The best teams build around franchise altering TALENT ... Vuc is not that.


Retaining a player is not always about building around him. There are different contexts and reasons for retention.

For the Magic, their success is reliant on how the young players develop and how they accumulate and manage assets to maximize ALL their assets. The philosophy of the best teams for that is to maintain a competitive context with a stable infrastructure. In fact that setting is how they often acquire or develop that TALENT. Vucevic is a big factor in maintaining that context, and that is absolutely not easily replaceable.

There is an endless list of squandered TALENT on bad teams.



There has been talk of multiple teams having interest in the full max 4 year / $141M offer to Vuc. That is over $35M per year.

I’m sorry, call it what you will but that is a playing you are now financially forced to build around.

If such an offer comes and that is what it takes ... do you still support keeping him?
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Re: GM Philosophies and Theory - general offseason discussion 

Post#166 » by ezzzp » Mon Jun 3, 2019 10:04 pm

MagicMatic wrote:You are in straight up fantasy land homer levels of delusion son. “Pulverized by people with BbIQ?” LMAO. Ok so you are a child and a troll ? Add it to the list I guess.


You can't face the reality that you keep getting proved wrong...its probably why you are addicted to tanking - makes you feel right at home in all that losing
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Re: GM Philosophies and Theory - general offseason discussion 

Post#167 » by Skin » Mon Jun 3, 2019 10:27 pm

ezzzp wrote:
Skin wrote:The denial is pure. Of course you are Vuc fan boy. That's the reason why you keep ignoring what is being told to you over and over again.

If you were solely about staying competitive, then you would at least be open to the option that the cap savings from not spending money on Vuc over the term of his next contract could be used in other ways that could still keep the Magic competitive. Resigning Vuc is NOT the only option.

Of course your rebuttle is "How will you spend it? How do you know that person will help? Do you have clairvoyant powers?" Yet, you bring up Conley and can't take what you dish.

Nobody has argued that we should start tanking again. Just because you think that will happen if we let Vuc go (clairvoyance btw) doesn't it make it the only possible outcome. Don't get confused... Yes, some people have said we should've tanked harder in the past 5-7 years of this era of Magic basketball... but that is a different argument than the talks related to us going forward.

My stance has been that we should try to be competitive, but in a way that supports WeHam's vision and timeline of the players that they already invested highly in. Isaac and Bamba are far and away their 2 strongest core pieces. In only his second year, Isaac is already a starter providing an impact. If Jonathon Simmons were here, Isaac would've been unnecessarily sharing minutes with him. Bamba may only need another year or two to start being a heavily impactful player.

I'm open to Vuc on a 2-3 year deal, but I think the reality is he will be looking for a 4-5 year deal and that is simply a roadblock. AG has been WeHam's biggest and longest contract signing. I would suggest bringing in players similar to AG's age range that can grow together with him... Or if our options at 16 are not entirely desirable, trade up in this year's draft to secure another strong core player... Or draft players who have more years in college and are more ready to help right away... Or trade our vets for other vets that fit better along WeHam's vision for the make up of their team. None of those suggestions are pro-tank (which is the belief you think I have at this point).


Stop trying to change the topic to hide that you (and MagicMatic and Martinzisfraud) keep getting pulverized by people with actual bbIQ. LMAO and now you are trying to paint me as a Vucevic fanboy? :lol: Wow, you really are getting desperate. That's almost as hilarious as this closeted-tanker nonsense...nobody believes you.

I will NEVER agree with your obsession for a treadmill bottom feeder composed only of <23 year olds that learn to play for honor of "best at losing."

There is no confusion, you and handful of closet-tankers aren't fooling anyone with what you want. In 32 games, Isaac and Bamba had a comical -20.5 NETRtg when on floor together. When they shared floor with Gordon that NETRtg plummeted even further into the abyss to a -32.5 NETRtg. If WeHam handed keys to them last season that would have meant a tanking season, its not that difficult to see what it is you want team to do.

Isaac is only a starter because his poor offense was being scaffolded primarily by Vucevic. An inexperienced poor 3P%-D player, that can't create for himself, is only a starter if 2-3 of the other starters (aka the vets) are the focus of the offensive system...at least if winning games is the goal.

Your stance has never been to stay competitive, LMAO. You and MagicMatic/Martinzisfraud have complained endlessly about the FO's patient approach...and now you are trying to pass off "their vision and timeline?" smh. Westman and Hammond's past history and their actions with the Magic are ABSOLUTELY not in line with yours. If it was they would have traded Vucevic and Ross, not had an evaluation year, not pushed for the playoffs etc. But nice try to spin that LMAO.

You are constantly complaining that there is no "centerpiece," yet you use gimmick word like timeline as backbone of your pov. The term timeline is even more irrelevant without a franchise player in place. Before that its only a word uttered by PR departments and beginners who don't understand actual contract cycles and player movement in the NBA.

Once the franchise player is set, that's when you start to discuss timeline. But its not about matching age of that franchise player. Its about aligning contract cycles/peak performance sweet spots. Those rarely align with the age of franchise player, in fact its usually the opposite where proven vet talent is added to augment the inexperience to maximize that franchise players time with the team.

Lol you're getting so frustrated now that you're making up my beliefs for me in order to please your own crazy misunderstandings.

Complaining about tanking in the past is not what I'm denying. But what I've been saying about our offseason is that we need to take the next step in DEVELOPMENT and building a team for the next era. Hopefully the softevuc fanboy era is over. That doesn't necessarily have to equate to tanking like you want to believe.

That's why I'm not against bringing back TRoss. I think he and Birch are both more important than bringing back Vuc. I hope the Magic chase Kelly Oubre. I've said we should move up in the draft. These are not protanking suggestions. The ball is rolling and we've got some nice pieces to work with if we're can build the right chemistry and environment.
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Re: GM Philosophies and Theory - general offseason discussion 

Post#168 » by MagicMatic » Mon Jun 3, 2019 10:33 pm

Skin wrote:
ezzzp wrote:
Skin wrote:I'd rather have Batum than Fournier, but that is just another classic example in a long line of examples where teams get screwed overpaying for a player. ezzzp doesn't want to hear it because it destroys his reality. No surprise to me that he wants another example of a hot mess in Mike Conley's contract. The guy literally cannot stay healthy. Let me guess, he wants John Wall as a backup?


That's BS. My reality is same philosophy of the best NBA franchises and best minds in BB...your reality is based on failed tank gimmicks and chasing bb trends pushed by bloggers and mainstream media chasing clicks.

No you're still in denial. Your philosophy is being a Vuc fanboy because he's your only solution to being competitive.


It’s just people being absolutely terrified of going back to the drawing board and conceding that he should have been traded before the season started and we could have gotten better return. Shaking in their boots that they might have to endure a season of watching players develop and take their lumps after being drafted near the top of the lottery.

Some of these posters would rather Orlando be a fringe playoff or first round exit team for 4-5 years, rather than address any of the other issues and questions moving into the future. And no, Conley isn’t a “future” move. Trades can be made. Players can be drafted without giving up assets. Nah, let’s just resign Vuc and Ross and ride out the rest of the decade long rebuild with more mediocre, plodding, and boring basketball while none of those issues are solved.

They want to be competitive, keep all the young guys, relinquish the fact free agency isn’t an option, think drafting 16-20 is fine, and everything will work itself out.... Delusion.
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Re: GM Philosophies and Theory - general offseason discussion 

Post#169 » by ezzzp » Mon Jun 3, 2019 10:34 pm

MagicFan101 wrote:There has been talk of multiple teams having interest in the full max 4 year / $141M offer to Vuc. That is over $35M per year.

I’m sorry, call it what you will but that is a playing you are now financially forced to build around.

If such an offer comes and that is what it takes ... so you still support keeping him?


You really think that teams are leaking information about who their free agency targets are? What's the strategy there, to call dibs on the player and pretend they didn't just show their cards?

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that those leaks are coming from his agent and Vucevic's camp.

I've read rumors about Dallas and Sacramento having interest, imagine that - two teams with close ties to Billy Duffy.

Am I really supposed to believe that Dallas, who is in bad need of backcourt shooting; and have just acquired Porzingiz + already have Dwight Powell for cheap (who btw Tim McMahon Dallas most informed media called a perfect fit) - is going to max a C?

How credible is the notion that Sacramento, one of fastest teams in NBA wants to max Vuc and change their system away from their two prized players: Fox/Bagley to him?

Maybe they make him an offer; but call me crazy but neither of those situations look like a max contract or anything remotely near it is on the table.

It doesn't take much to explore team needs, the amount of C's on FA and trade market and the cap situation around the NBA to know that there are VERY limited scenarios.

If some team does offer him a ridiculous amount, then I have no problem with the Magic FO passing on it. I just don't believe that offer is really out there.
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Re: GM Philosophies and Theory - general offseason discussion 

Post#170 » by MagicFan101 » Mon Jun 3, 2019 10:44 pm

ezzzp wrote:
MagicFan101 wrote:There has been talk of multiple teams having interest in the full max 4 year / $141M offer to Vuc. That is over $35M per year.

I’m sorry, call it what you will but that is a playing you are now financially forced to build around.

If such an offer comes and that is what it takes ... so you still support keeping him?


You really think that teams are leaking information about who they're free agency targets are? What's the strategy there, to call dibs on the player and pretend they didn't just show their cards?

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that those leaks are coming from his agent and Vucevic's camp.

I've read rumors about Dallas and Sacramento having interest, imagine that - two teams with close ties to Billy Duffy.

Am I really supposed to believe that Dallas, who is in bad need of backcourt shooting; and have just acquired Porzingiz + already have Dwight Powell for cheap (who btw Tim McMahon Dallas most informed media called a perfect fit) - is going to max a C?

How credible is the notion that Sacramento, one of fastest teams in NBA wants to max Vuc and change their system away from their two prized players: Fox/Bagley to him?

Maybe they make him an offer; but call me crazy but neither of those situations look like a max contract or anything remotely near it is on the table.

It doesn't take much to explore team needs, the amount of C's on FA and trade market and the cap situation around the NBA to know that there are VERY limited scenarios.

If some team does offer him a ridiculous amount, then I have no problem with the Magic FO passing on it. I just don't believe that offer is really out there.


I’m not interested in rumors. It doesn’t matter what I believe. We are discussing what fans here feel fair value is.

So we agree that he is not worth a max.

But what is the breaking point for you? How high are you willing to go? If your numbers are reasonable then I’m on your side. I’m just trying to measure what that is for you.
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Re: GM Philosophies and Theory - general offseason discussion 

Post#171 » by ezzzp » Mon Jun 3, 2019 10:46 pm

Skin wrote:Lol you're getting so frustrated now that you're making up my beliefs for me in order to please your own crazy misunderstandings.

Complaining about tanking in the past is not what I'm denying. But what I've been saying about our offseason is that we need to take the next step in DEVELOPMENT and building a team for the next era. Hopefully the softevuc fanboy era is over. That doesn't necessarily have to equate to tanking like you want to believe.

That's why I'm not against bringing back TRoss. I think he and Birch are both more important than bringing back Vuc. I hope the Magic chase Kelly Oubre. I've said we should move up in the draft. These are not protanking suggestions. The ball is rolling and we've got some nice pieces to work with if we're can build the right chemistry and environment.


Frustrated?...keep telling yourself that :lol:

Building a team for the next ERA? LMAO, you have no grasp of what NBA reality is with its contract cycles and rapidly increasing player movement. That you can't see what happens to a team minus its best two players and very little capacity to replace that shows how disconnected to reality you are. Kelly Oubre is your plan :lol: ...wow. Yea and getting younger is a surefire way of remaining competitive?! LMAO.
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Re: GM Philosophies and Theory - general offseason discussion 

Post#172 » by ezzzp » Mon Jun 3, 2019 11:04 pm

MagicFan101 wrote:
ezzzp wrote:
MagicFan101 wrote:There has been talk of multiple teams having interest in the full max 4 year / $141M offer to Vuc. That is over $35M per year.

I’m sorry, call it what you will but that is a playing you are now financially forced to build around.

If such an offer comes and that is what it takes ... so you still support keeping him?


You really think that teams are leaking information about who their free agency targets are? What's the strategy there, to call dibs on the player and pretend they didn't just show their cards?

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that those leaks are coming from his agent and Vucevic's camp.

I've read rumors about Dallas and Sacramento having interest, imagine that - two teams with close ties to Billy Duffy.

Am I really supposed to believe that Dallas, who is in bad need of backcourt shooting; and have just acquired Porzingiz + already have Dwight Powell for cheap (who btw Tim McMahon Dallas most informed media called a perfect fit) - is going to max a C?

How credible is the notion that Sacramento, one of fastest teams in NBA wants to max Vuc and change their system away from their two prized players: Fox/Bagley to him?

Maybe they make him an offer; but call me crazy but neither of those situations look like a max contract or anything remotely near it is on the table.

It doesn't take much to explore team needs, the amount of C's on FA and trade market and the cap situation around the NBA to know that there are VERY limited scenarios.

If some team does offer him a ridiculous amount, then I have no problem with the Magic FO passing on it. I just don't believe that offer is really out there.


I’m not interested in rumors. It doesn’t matter what I believe. We are discussing what fans here feel fair value is.

So we agree that he is not worth a max.

But what is the breaking point for you? How high are you willing to go? If your numbers are reasonable then I’m on your side. I’m just trying to measure what that is for you.


I definitely do not believe he is worth max or anything remotely close to it. I have said many times, that its in both parties best interest to come to reasonable terms. From what I can see, both need each other more than any other context in the market.

There are numerous polls and threads about what is a reasonable $ for Vucevic. The most popular amount and the average (a couple weeks ago) was between $20m-$23m. I think that's the range he and FO would be content with.

I'm fine with that range. Maybe even stretch to $25m per if it really came down to it - but definitely not keeping Ross in that scenario. Above that I wouldn't do it unless the contract structure changed, like a 2 year deal - but that seems far fetched.

I did a projection of how that $20-23m range impacts the longterm cap and its totally doable, if Ross isn't re-signed there is little to no impact at all.
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Re: GM Philosophies and Theory - general offseason discussion 

Post#173 » by MagicFan101 » Mon Jun 3, 2019 11:07 pm

ezzzp wrote:
MagicFan101 wrote:
ezzzp wrote:
You really think that teams are leaking information about who their free agency targets are? What's the strategy there, to call dibs on the player and pretend they didn't just show their cards?

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that those leaks are coming from his agent and Vucevic's camp.

I've read rumors about Dallas and Sacramento having interest, imagine that - two teams with close ties to Billy Duffy.

Am I really supposed to believe that Dallas, who is in bad need of backcourt shooting; and have just acquired Porzingiz + already have Dwight Powell for cheap (who btw Tim McMahon Dallas most informed media called a perfect fit) - is going to max a C?

How credible is the notion that Sacramento, one of fastest teams in NBA wants to max Vuc and change their system away from their two prized players: Fox/Bagley to him?

Maybe they make him an offer; but call me crazy but neither of those situations look like a max contract or anything remotely near it is on the table.

It doesn't take much to explore team needs, the amount of C's on FA and trade market and the cap situation around the NBA to know that there are VERY limited scenarios.

If some team does offer him a ridiculous amount, then I have no problem with the Magic FO passing on it. I just don't believe that offer is really out there.


I’m not interested in rumors. It doesn’t matter what I believe. We are discussing what fans here feel fair value is.

So we agree that he is not worth a max.

But what is the breaking point for you? How high are you willing to go? If your numbers are reasonable then I’m on your side. I’m just trying to measure what that is for you.


I definitely do not believe he is worth max or anything remotely close to it. I have said many times, that its in both parties best interest to come to reasonable terms. From what I can see, both need each other more than any other context in the market.

There are numerous polls and threads about what is a reasonable $ for Vucevic. The most popular amount and the average (a couple weeks ago) was between $20m-$23m. I think that's the range he and FO would be content with.

I'm fine with that range. Maybe even stretch to $25m per if it really came down to it - but definitely not keeping Ross in that scenario. Above that I wouldn't do it unless the contract structure changed, like a 2 year deal - but that seems far fetched.

I did a projection of how that $20-23m range impacts the longterm cap and its totally doable, if Ross isn't resigned there is little to no impact at all.


A long term deal for Vuc which averages $23M per gets no hate from me.
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Re: GM Philosophies and Theory - general offseason discussion 

Post#174 » by Skin » Mon Jun 3, 2019 11:17 pm

MagicFan101 wrote:
ezzzp wrote:
MagicFan101 wrote:

The best player on fringe playoff team isn’t necessarily a great player to build around ...

Why is that the case for you?

In an earlier post you claimed your philosophies were shared by the best basketball franchises and minds in the NBA ...

The best teams build around franchise altering TALENT ... Vuc is not that.


Retaining a player is not always about building around him. There are different contexts and reasons for retention.

For the Magic, their success is reliant on how the young players develop and how they accumulate and manage assets to maximize ALL their assets. The philosophy of the best teams for that is to maintain a competitive context with a stable infrastructure. In fact that setting is how they often acquire or develop that TALENT. Vucevic is a big factor in maintaining that context, and that is absolutely not easily replaceable.

There is an endless list of squandered TALENT on bad teams.



There has been talk of multiple teams having interest in the full max 4 year / $141M offer to Vuc. That is over $35M per year.

I’m sorry, call it what you will but that is a playing you are now financially forced to build around.

If such an offer comes and that is what it takes ... do you still support keeping him?

Rather give him 2 years $141M than 4 years $141M. Lol.
In 2 years Bamba should be ready.
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Re: GM Philosophies and Theory - general offseason discussion 

Post#175 » by Skin » Mon Jun 3, 2019 11:24 pm

ezzzp wrote:
MagicFan101 wrote:There has been talk of multiple teams having interest in the full max 4 year / $141M offer to Vuc. That is over $35M per year.

I’m sorry, call it what you will but that is a playing you are now financially forced to build around.

If such an offer comes and that is what it takes ... so you still support keeping him?


You really think that teams are leaking information about who their free agency targets are? What's the strategy there, to call dibs on the player and pretend they didn't just show their cards?

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that those leaks are coming from his agent and Vucevic's camp.

I've read rumors about Dallas and Sacramento having interest, imagine that - two teams with close ties to Billy Duffy.

Am I really supposed to believe that Dallas, who is in bad need of backcourt shooting; and have just acquired Porzingiz + already have Dwight Powell for cheap (who btw Tim McMahon Dallas most informed media called a perfect fit) - is going to max a C?

How credible is the notion that Sacramento, one of fastest teams in NBA wants to max Vuc and change their system away from their two prized players: Fox/Bagley to him?

Maybe they make him an offer; but call me crazy but neither of those situations look like a max contract or anything remotely near it is on the table.

It doesn't take much to explore team needs, the amount of C's on FA and trade market and the cap situation around the NBA to know that there are VERY limited scenarios.

If some team does offer him a ridiculous amount, then I have no problem with the Magic FO passing on it. I just don't believe that offer is really out there.

Pure denial at every angle. How does a Vuc fanboy come to the conclusion that he's soooooooo good that we have to keep him, but at the same time tell us that no other teams want him and on top of that tell us that he shouldn't cost that much? :lol:
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Re: GM Philosophies and Theory - general offseason discussion 

Post#176 » by MartinsIzAfraud » Mon Jun 3, 2019 11:36 pm

ezzzp wrote:
MagicFan101 wrote:
ezzzp wrote:
You really think that teams are leaking information about who their free agency targets are? What's the strategy there, to call dibs on the player and pretend they didn't just show their cards?

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that those leaks are coming from his agent and Vucevic's camp.

I've read rumors about Dallas and Sacramento having interest, imagine that - two teams with close ties to Billy Duffy.


Am I really supposed to believe that Dallas, who is in bad need of backcourt shooting; and have just acquired Porzingiz + already have Dwight Powell for cheap (who btw Tim McMahon Dallas most informed media called a perfect fit) - is going to max a C?

How credible is the notion that Sacramento, one of fastest teams in NBA wants to max Vuc and change their system away from their two prized players: Fox/Bagley to him?

Maybe they make him an offer; but call me crazy but neither of those situations look like a max contract or anything remotely near it is on the table.

It doesn't take much to explore team needs, the amount of C's on FA and trade market and the cap situation around the NBA to know that there are VERY limited scenarios.

If some team does offer him a ridiculous amount, then I have no problem with the Magic FO passing on it. I just don't believe that offer is really out there.


I’m not interested in rumors. It doesn’t matter what I believe. We are discussing what fans here feel fair value is.

So we agree that he is not worth a max.

But what is the breaking point for you? How high are you willing to go? If your numbers are reasonable then I’m on your side. I’m just trying to measure what that is for you.


I definitely do not believe he is worth max or anything remotely close to it. I have said many times, that its in both parties best interest to come to reasonable terms. From what I can see, both need each other more than any other context in the market.

There are numerous polls and threads about what is a reasonable $ for Vucevic. The most popular amount and the average (a couple weeks ago) was between $20m-$23m. I think that's the range he and FO would be content with.

I'm fine with that range. Maybe even stretch to $25m per if it really came down to it - but definitely not keeping Ross in that scenario. Above that I wouldn't do it unless the contract structure changed, like a 2 year deal - but that seems far fetched.

I did a projection of how that $20-23m range impacts the longterm cap and its totally doable, if Ross isn't re-signed there is little to no impact at all.



Powell declined his player option so Dallas could be a landing spot. I think a Dallas will try to go after bigger FA target then could swing back. Porzingis is the starting 4 and Vuc would slide it at 5.


Sacramento has been mentioned by 2 extremely tight media people that cover the team as wanting Vuc. They need a stretching C who can take pressure of Fox & Bagley who need space down low to work. It’d actually be the perfect spot for Vuc. Fox Bagley can deal down low, Hield can be the shooter then you’ve got Vuc at 5 Barnes at 4. Kings also changed coaches and got Luke Walton so I would expect a change of systems.

Those 2 teams wouldn’t be changing the way they play/build a system around Vuc. He’d have to come in and find his role. However as I explained above don’t think he’d have a hard time playing PnR game in either spot shooting mid range or 3’s.

If you bring back Vuc and don’t bring back TRoss then ROFL. That would be about as dumb of move as winning meaningless games previous 2-seasons to kill ping pong balls.
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Re: GM Philosophies and Theory - general offseason discussion 

Post#177 » by Skin » Tue Jun 4, 2019 12:24 am

ezzzp wrote:
Skin wrote:Lol you're getting so frustrated now that you're making up my beliefs for me in order to please your own crazy misunderstandings.

Complaining about tanking in the past is not what I'm denying. But what I've been saying about our offseason is that we need to take the next step in DEVELOPMENT and building a team for the next era. Hopefully the softevuc fanboy era is over. That doesn't necessarily have to equate to tanking like you want to believe.

That's why I'm not against bringing back TRoss. I think he and Birch are both more important than bringing back Vuc. I hope the Magic chase Kelly Oubre. I've said we should move up in the draft. These are not protanking suggestions. The ball is rolling and we've got some nice pieces to work with if we're can build the right chemistry and environment.


Frustrated?...keep telling yourself that :lol:

Building a team for the next ERA? LMAO, you have no grasp of what NBA reality is with its contract cycles and rapidly increasing player movement. That you can't see what happens to a team minus its best two players and very little capacity to replace that shows how disconnected to reality you are. Kelly Oubre is your plan :lol: ...wow. Yea and getting younger is a surefire way of remaining competitive?! LMAO.

Again frustration is getting the best of you. I'm fine bringing back TRoss. I repeatedly said throughout the season that he was more deserving to start over Fournier... but I understood that he had the right attitude about coming off the bench.... something I think Fournier would've made waves about.

I also don't see a clear upgrade over Ross at pick 16. I know that goes against your smear ad trying to say that I only want young players.

Also notice that you missed the point I made about not bringing in another young and expensive PG that would mess with our Fultz project. I often talk about how too many young players at the same position can cannibalize each other to the detriment of both of them. Again, that goes against your young players only smear campaign.

Let me talk for myself. You don't need to put words in my mouth that you can't even translate correctly. It's obvious you can't handle anything that goes against your bias... so sad.
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Re: GM Philosophies and Theory - general offseason discussion 

Post#178 » by ezzzp » Tue Jun 4, 2019 1:01 am

Skin wrote:
ezzzp wrote:
MagicFan101 wrote:There has been talk of multiple teams having interest in the full max 4 year / $141M offer to Vuc. That is over $35M per year.

I’m sorry, call it what you will but that is a playing you are now financially forced to build around.

If such an offer comes and that is what it takes ... so you still support keeping him?


You really think that teams are leaking information about who their free agency targets are? What's the strategy there, to call dibs on the player and pretend they didn't just show their cards?

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that those leaks are coming from his agent and Vucevic's camp.

I've read rumors about Dallas and Sacramento having interest, imagine that - two teams with close ties to Billy Duffy.

Am I really supposed to believe that Dallas, who is in bad need of backcourt shooting; and have just acquired Porzingiz + already have Dwight Powell for cheap (who btw Tim McMahon Dallas most informed media called a perfect fit) - is going to max a C?

How credible is the notion that Sacramento, one of fastest teams in NBA wants to max Vuc and change their system away from their two prized players: Fox/Bagley to him?

Maybe they make him an offer; but call me crazy but neither of those situations look like a max contract or anything remotely near it is on the table.

It doesn't take much to explore team needs, the amount of C's on FA and trade market and the cap situation around the NBA to know that there are VERY limited scenarios.

If some team does offer him a ridiculous amount, then I have no problem with the Magic FO passing on it. I just don't believe that offer is really out there.

Pure denial at every angle. How does a Vuc fanboy come to the conclusion that he's soooooooo good that we have to keep him, but at the same time tell us that no other teams want him and on top of that tell us that he shouldn't cost that much? :lol:


uh there is thing call supply and demand...educate yourself
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Re: GM Philosophies and Theory - general offseason discussion 

Post#179 » by MasterGMer » Tue Jun 4, 2019 1:27 am

I agree with ezzzy that we need continuity on this team and Magic should try its best to resign Vuc and Ross.

However, if Vuc is being offered 30 million plus. We need to let him go and we could try to replace him with cheaper options like Deandre Jordan or such.

I personally hope we are done with tanking for a very very long time
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Re: GM Philosophies and Theory - general offseason discussion 

Post#180 » by ezzzp » Tue Jun 4, 2019 1:43 am

MartinsIzAfraud wrote:Powell declined his player option so Dallas could be a landing spot. I think a Dallas will try to go after bigger FA target then could swing back. Porzingis is the starting 4 and Vuc would slide it at 5.

Sacramento has been mentioned by 2 extremely tight media people that cover the team as wanting Vuc. They need a stretching C who can take pressure of Fox & Bagley who need space down low to work. It’d actually be the perfect spot for Vuc. Fox Bagley can deal down low, Hield can be the shooter then you’ve got Vuc at 5 Barnes at 4. Kings also changed coaches and got Luke Walton so I would expect a change of systems.

Those 2 teams wouldn’t be changing the way they play/build a system around Vuc. He’d have to come in and find his role. However as I explained above don’t think he’d have a hard time playing PnR game in either spot shooting mid range or 3’s.

If you bring back Vuc and don’t bring back TRoss then ROFL. That would be about as dumb of move as winning meaningless games previous 2-seasons to kill ping pong balls.


Mavs free agents and Cuban have done this regularly to clear cap space and then he resigns them for long term. In fact that's exactly what Tim MacMahon said DP would do two weeks ago.

Media people get their info from player agents (aka Vucevic's agent), doesn't matter how tight media person is with FO. No FO is interested in broadcasting who their free agent target is as it can only hurt their position.

Those two teams would ABSOLUTELY be changing the way they play and build LMAO what a joke. You'd be relegating KP to PF longterm. In Sac, Luke Walton is known for fast systems that consistently play small ball. If anything, Walton hurts the already weak argument that Kings will offer a big contract. They might want Vucevic for his 3pt shooting and make him an offer, but I doubt they are offering crazy $ amount for a big just for his 3pt shooting knowing that with Fox/Bagley he won't be used anywhere near to how he is most effective. From the other pov, why does Vucevic want to play in a system that's going to take him away from his best skills.

FYI bench scoring can be replaced. Its one of the things that the Magic can actually do with their MLE, so if Ross wants starter money they'll have options. Bench scoring can usually be found in free agency, overseas, draft, or in G-L ...its actually a spot where the Magic can strengthen without committing long term salary.

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