Around the NBA - 2019 NBA Finals Edition

[Context]

Andre Igoudala ... haha. Dude couldn't the broad side of a barn with the Sixers.

they booed him regularly- i was there...

So was I. Were in living in Philly?

lived there for 3 years...

[G_K_F]

Pascal looked like a Knick with his back turned on D.

pascal was the best player in nba history after game 1, now he sucks, let's see how the narrative on him changes after game 3

I was ready to trade RJ for him, now I would never

The world is made up of knee jerk reactions. I do like Pascal a lot but I don't think his ceiling is super high. He's already very good but he's not explosive or super fast. Can do a lot well and has good court awareness.

I think Knox can reach his level.

Siakam is one of the better defensive players in the NBA. To even suggest that is blasphemous.

[K_ick_God]

pascal was the best player in nba history after game 1, now he sucks, let's see how the narrative on him changes after game 3

I was ready to trade RJ for him, now I would never

The world is made up of knee jerk reactions. I do like Pascal a lot but I don't think his ceiling is super high. He's already very good but he's not explosive or super fast. Can do a lot well and has good court awareness.

I think Knox can reach his level.

Siakam is one of the better defensive players in the NBA. To even suggest that is blasphemous.

I was just talking O but I'm not worried about Knox's D as much as most. I'm just not. But yeah Pascal is a very good defender.

[spree2kawhi]

kawhi coming up real small in the 4th

Yeah he bricked some and random players have taken random shots. I don't know, this team is erratic. They've always got their defense though, so it'll be close games until the end. It's what the Knicks should look at this off-season.

[SelbyCobra]

Rumors that Kawhi has bought property in Toronto, and today this:

Read on Twitter

[Knicksfan1992]

Rumors that Kawhi has bought property in Toronto, and today this:

Read on Twitter

Probably puts the idea of him teaming up with KD, Bron or Kyrie to rest... those guys are loyal to Nike.

[RHODEY]

Draymond is gonna punch the dude who practically owns the city of Toronto, has money for security, goons, etc.? Maybe outside of Canada, but even Draymond aint that stupid.

I actually love what Drake is doing, not even a fan of his but I love it for the environment it creates in Toronto. This is what homecourt advantage is all about.

It's like my granddaddy used to say....nobody is above a proper ass whipping.

Yeah sure if it's justified and warranted. That wouldn't be a time or a place or the right situation for anything like that to take place.

All this does is make me miss the days when the Knicks were good and teams had to come to MSG and really battle, not just the team but the entire city and fans

Where I'm from, you run your mouth , and you leave yourself open to being checked on the spot. If Drake wants to play all big, bad. and street then he should to be prepared to receive like and kind...on the on spot.

[HarthorneWingo]

they booed him regularly- i was there...

So was I. Were in living in Philly?

lived there for 3 years...

I was there for 30. What part of the city were you?

[dakomish23]

I hope everyone who’s been playing for GSW is healthy for game 3.

Curry Klay Iggy Dray Cousins (even at 70%) is an even matchup VS this TOR team.

[Fury]

I hope everyone who’s been playing for GSW is healthy for game 3.

Curry Klay Iggy Dray Cousins (even at 70%) is an even matchup VS this TOR team.

This serious is hilarious. The basketball gawds want to get the right combo of injuries to make it an even series. When Klay and Looney go out, Durant comes back to make sure it’s balanced.

[dakomish23]

I hope everyone who’s been playing for GSW is healthy for game 3.

Curry Klay Iggy Dray Cousins (even at 70%) is an even matchup VS this TOR team.

This serious is hilarious. The basketball gawds want to get the right combo of injuries to make it an even series. When Klay and Looney go out, Durant comes back to make sure it’s balanced.

I’m rooting for Durant to stay out b/c it tilts the balance heavily towards GSW. Plus I got this thing going with some friends who are prisoners of the moment and forgot how good everyone on GSW was before KD arrived.

[JBreezeNY]

KD is either gonna pull a Willis Reed or he’s done for the series cuz he’s out for Game 3.

[Knicksfan1992]

It's like my granddaddy used to say....nobody is above a proper ass whipping.

Yeah sure if it's justified and warranted. That wouldn't be a time or a place or the right situation for anything like that to take place.

All this does is make me miss the days when the Knicks were good and teams had to come to MSG and really battle, not just the team but the entire city and fans

Where I'm from, you run your mouth , and you leave yourself open to being checked on the spot. If Drake wants to play all big, bad. and street then he should to be prepared to receive like and kind...on the on spot.

And when at any point during this playoff series has Drake threatened anyone physically or verbally? It's all playful trash talk. A lot of people could actually learn a lot from how Drake/The Warriors are not taking things too far in this "conflict"

[SelbyCobra]

This series is set up wonderfully for Steph to enter the GOATS conversation. He's already rightfully known as the greatest shooter, but a lot of people like to use that as a backhanded way to discredit him ("he's the greatest SHOOTER ever, but he's not one of the greatest players ever")

If Steph (with Draymond's nitty gritty work) can put up big numbers and lead this squad to a chip with no KD, no Klay, a hobbled Iguoudala, and no Looney, it'd be a giant, inarguable point in Curry's favor.

[Chanel Bomber]

This series is set up wonderfully for Steph to enter the GOATS conversation. He's already rightfully known as the greatest shooter, but a lot of people like to use that as a backhanded way to discredit him ("he's the greatest SHOOTER ever, but he's not one of the greatest players ever")

If Steph (with Draymond's nitty gritty work) can put up big numbers and lead this squad to a chip with no KD, no Klay, a hobbled Iguoudala, and no Looney, it'd be a giant, inarguable point in Curry's favor.

I agree wholeheartedly and I personally feel he's there already but the way he's being defended in the Finals will always prevent him to put up these huge numbers.

It doesn't diminish his impact - and that's what his skeptics or haters fail to see - because when he gets trapped at halfcourt it creates 4 on 3 opportunities for his team, which doesn't show up on the boxscore. The way the Raptors are defending him, or the Cavs before them, is a testament to how great he is. But it's very convenient for some people who already have their mind made up to ignore that.

[DOT]

This series is set up wonderfully for Steph to enter the GOATS conversation. He's already rightfully known as the greatest shooter, but a lot of people like to use that as a backhanded way to discredit him ("he's the greatest SHOOTER ever, but he's not one of the greatest players ever")

If Steph (with Draymond's nitty gritty work) can put up big numbers and lead this squad to a chip with no KD, no Klay, a hobbled Iguoudala, and no Looney, it'd be a giant, inarguable point in Curry's favor.

I agree wholeheartedly and I personally feel he's there already but the way he's being defended in the Finals will always prevent him to put up these huge numbers.

It doesn't diminish his impact - and that's what his skeptics or haters fail to see - because when he gets trapped at halfcourt it creates 4 on 3 opportunities for his team, which doesn't show up on the boxscore. The way the Raptors are defending him, or the Cavs before them, is a testament to how great he is. But it's very convenient for some people who already have their mind made up to ignore that.

That's not really all there is to it though, or else Wilt and Shaq would be hands down GOATs for being unguardable and forcing double and triple teams, creating similar opportunities for their teammates

Plenty of players have had a similar effect on offense while being game changers on defense as well, which Steph is not. Even if he were the greatest offensive player of all time (which he may actually be, you can make the argument for him), his defense is further behind the other GOAT candidates than his offense is ahead of them

[Chanel Bomber]

This series is set up wonderfully for Steph to enter the GOATS conversation. He's already rightfully known as the greatest shooter, but a lot of people like to use that as a backhanded way to discredit him ("he's the greatest SHOOTER ever, but he's not one of the greatest players ever")

If Steph (with Draymond's nitty gritty work) can put up big numbers and lead this squad to a chip with no KD, no Klay, a hobbled Iguoudala, and no Looney, it'd be a giant, inarguable point in Curry's favor.

I agree wholeheartedly and I personally feel he's there already but the way he's being defended in the Finals will always prevent him to put up these huge numbers.

It doesn't diminish his impact - and that's what his skeptics or haters fail to see - because when he gets trapped at halfcourt it creates 4 on 3 opportunities for his team, which doesn't show up on the boxscore. The way the Raptors are defending him, or the Cavs before them, is a testament to how great he is. But it's very convenient for some people who already have their mind made up to ignore that.

That's not really all there is to it though, or else Wilt and Shaq would be hands down GOATs for being unguardable and forcing double and triple teams, creating similar opportunities for their teammates

Plenty of players have had a similar effect on offense while being game changers on defense as well, which Steph is not. Even if he were the greatest offensive player of all time (which he may actually be, you can make the argument for him), his defense is further behind the other GOAT candidates than his offense is ahead of them

Fair point but I disagree with your offense/defense argument in this regard:

You can make up for an individual players defensive deficiencies by surrounding him with the right players and win a championship, unless he's an absolute sieve for his position, which Curry is not. The Dallas Mavericks proved it in 2011.

However, at this ultimate championship level, you just can't replace the gravity of players like Curry, LeBron, Dirk in 2011 or Shaq back in the early 2000s. No matter how many players you add to the team, this is not something that can be replicated unless you have one of those rare guys.

When judging individual careers, offense matters for than defense to me for this specific reason. Please correct me if I didn't get what you were trying to say but the offense/defense argument is a false equivalence in my opinion.

[DOT]

I agree wholeheartedly and I personally feel he's there already but the way he's being defended in the Finals will always prevent him to put up these huge numbers.

It doesn't diminish his impact - and that's what his skeptics or haters fail to see - because when he gets trapped at halfcourt it creates 4 on 3 opportunities for his team, which doesn't show up on the boxscore. The way the Raptors are defending him, or the Cavs before them, is a testament to how great he is. But it's very convenient for some people who already have their mind made up to ignore that.

That's not really all there is to it though, or else Wilt and Shaq would be hands down GOATs for being unguardable and forcing double and triple teams, creating similar opportunities for their teammates

Plenty of players have had a similar effect on offense while being game changers on defense as well, which Steph is not. Even if he were the greatest offensive player of all time (which he may actually be, you can make the argument for him), his defense is further behind the other GOAT candidates than his offense is ahead of them

Fair point but I disagree with your offense/defense argument in this regard:

You can make up for an individual players defensive deficiencies by surrounding him with the right players and win a championship, unless he's an absolute sieve for his position, which Curry is not. The Dallas Mavericks proved it in 2011.

However, at this ultimate championship level, you just can't replace the gravity of players like Curry, LeBron, Dirk in 2011 or Shaq back in the early 2000s. No matter how many players you add to the team, this is not something that can be replicated unless you have one of those rare guys.

When judging individual careers, offense matters for than defense to me for this specific reason. Please correct me if I didn't get what you were trying to say but the offense/defense argument is a false equivalence in my opinion.

Nah, I get that, and I agree with if you're building a championship team, you choose a great offensive player with mediocre defense over a great defensive player with mediocre offense to build around any day of the week

I just don't think you can be the goat if you're not great on both sides of the ball, which Curry is not. I think in order to be the goat and be bad defensively (like, in a historical sense, Curry may be an okay defender relative to his contemporaries, but compared to the goats, he's bad), you have to be insane on offense, like, Wilt numbers on Curry efficiency insane

[Chanel Bomber]

That's not really all there is to it though, or else Wilt and Shaq would be hands down GOATs for being unguardable and forcing double and triple teams, creating similar opportunities for their teammates

Plenty of players have had a similar effect on offense while being game changers on defense as well, which Steph is not. Even if he were the greatest offensive player of all time (which he may actually be, you can make the argument for him), his defense is further behind the other GOAT candidates than his offense is ahead of them

Fair point but I disagree with your offense/defense argument in this regard:

You can make up for an individual players defensive deficiencies by surrounding him with the right players and win a championship, unless he's an absolute sieve for his position, which Curry is not. The Dallas Mavericks proved it in 2011.

However, at this ultimate championship level, you just can't replace the gravity of players like Curry, LeBron, Dirk in 2011 or Shaq back in the early 2000s. No matter how many players you add to the team, this is not something that can be replicated unless you have one of those rare guys.

When judging individual careers, offense matters for than defense to me for this specific reason. Please correct me if I didn't get what you were trying to say but the offense/defense argument is a false equivalence in my opinion.

Nah, I get that, and I agree with if you're building a championship team, you choose a great offensive player with mediocre defense over a great defensive player with mediocre offense to build around any day of the week

I just don't think you can be the goat if you're not great on both sides of the ball, which Curry is not. I think in order to be the goat and be bad defensively (like, in a historical sense, Curry may be an okay defender relative to his contemporaries, but compared to the goats, he's bad), you have to be insane on offense, like, Wilt numbers on Curry efficiency insane

Fair enough, I definitely respect that.

I personally feel like the GOAT conversation becomes too noisy and too complicated when you (not you) start including guys from the 60s and 70s. The game was just too different. The rules were different, the overall skill level was considerably lower than it is now and the tactical/analytical understanding of the game was lacking compared to today's NBA. And it's not a slight against the older generations, it's just the natural evolution of the game.

I'm making this point to say that Wilt would never average his raw numbers in today's NBA, because good defenses adjust and find ways to put a ceiling on your statistical output if you're in the zone. Toronto's box-and-one in game 2 is a prime example of that. That's why I care more about efficiency X volume above a certain volume threshold.

The parameters of the GOAT debate are rarely defined but they are crucial to this conversation. Depending on which approach we're taking, I might give you different answers. It's a tricky debate. For instance, are we comparing their achievements within the context of their respective eras or are we artificially placing them in one era where they would be competing against each other? If so, in which era are we placing these players? Or are we comparing their ability to succeed across different eras and under different rules? Also, should we assume that they would adapt to the modern NBA, if we arbitrarily decide to use it as some sort of standard (ie MJ's 3-point shooting)?

I don't pretend to know, I just feel like these questions matter.

[spree2kawhi]

This series is set up wonderfully for Steph to enter the GOATS conversation. He's already rightfully known as the greatest shooter, but a lot of people like to use that as a backhanded way to discredit him ("he's the greatest SHOOTER ever, but he's not one of the greatest players ever")

If Steph (with Draymond's nitty gritty work) can put up big numbers and lead this squad to a chip with no KD, no Klay, a hobbled Iguoudala, and no Looney, it'd be a giant, inarguable point in Curry's favor.

I agree wholeheartedly and I personally feel he's there already but the way he's being defended in the Finals will always prevent him to put up these huge numbers.

It doesn't diminish his impact - and that's what his skeptics or haters fail to see - because when he gets trapped at halfcourt it creates 4 on 3 opportunities for his team, which doesn't show up on the boxscore. The way the Raptors are defending him, or the Cavs before them, is a testament to how great he is. But it's very convenient for some people who already have their mind made up to ignore that.

It is true. I also made the point that this group was beyond just great even without KD. Now Klay and Draymond are obviously very good. But what about Wade+Bosh / Pippen/Rodman in comparison. Steph is clearly an all time great. What he does especially using his brain and movement is unparalleled. He brings in the category of top 5 all time, but there's no rush. We might as well talk about it after his career. Sane with LeBron, who'll probably sit on 3 championships - not 5, not 6, not 7...