2018-19 Player of the Year Discussion Thread

Dupp · Post #761 » by **Dupp** » Sat Jun 1, 2019 4:11 am

So 4 guys were guarding curry most of the time? No wonder they got so many open threes

Post #762 » by **PaulieWal** » Sat Jun 1, 2019 4:45 am

MapleJordan79 wrote:I also was watching a game where the only time Kawhi got more than one defender thrown his way was off of drives or when he isod on the wing but didn't post up

Yeah, no. They were literally doubling and shading Kawhi as soon as he got the ball. And Toronto was actually just guarding Curry straight up a lot but doing a damn good job of sticking with him off the ball. Help defense came at the right times but Warriors were tactically definitely trying to get Kawhi to pass the ball and take it out of his hands unlike the Raps who were playing Curry more straight up and not giving Green those 4 on 3s.

PCProductions · Post #763 » by **PCProductions** » Sat Jun 1, 2019 6:06 am

PaulieWal wrote:
MapleJordan79 wrote:I also was watching a game where the only time Kawhi got more than one defender thrown his way was off of drives or when he isod on the wing but didn't post up

Yeah, no. They were literally doubling and shading Kawhi as soon as he got the ball. And Toronto was actually just guarding Curry straight up a lot but doing a damn good job of sticking with him off the ball. Help defense came at the right times but Warriors were tactically definitely trying to get Kawhi to pass the ball and take it out of his hands unlike the Raps who were playing Curry more straight up and not giving Green those 4 on 3s.

That doesn't mean Kawhi was the better player, though.

MisterHibachi · Post #764 » by **MisterHibachi** » Sat Jun 1, 2019 3:01 pm

I always see doubles as a sign the defense doesn't trust your playmaking skills or your willingness to pass. That's why Kawhi was being doubled so much - he's not a great playmaker and misses a lot of reads.

MapleJordan79 · Post #765 » by **MapleJordan79** » Sat Jun 1, 2019 4:11 pm

Dupp wrote:So 4 guys were guarding curry most of the time? No wonder they got so many open threes

Yeah good thing there's usually only 2 guys on the court who can shoot them.

Baski · Post #766 » by **Baski** » Sun Jun 2, 2019 12:39 pm

dontcalltimeout wrote:Does anyone else think Kawhi is getting a bit overrated now? He's clearly an elite player but he gets discussed like he's doing all this on offense and is still 2016 Kawhi on defense, which is plainly not the case IMO. Obviously, he's been able to ramp up somewhat in the playoffs, particularly on-ball.

I remember in 2017 when he emerged as an MVP candidate in the popular discourse there was a lot of debate about whether his deteriorating defensive numbers were due to a change in priorities or just "noise." Looking back at 2019 and 2017 it's clear he just doesn't have the same motor on that end when he's carrying the load offensively. This is completely understandable, and he's still beasting out there. It just seems to me that people have mentally "added" his offensive game to their perception of Kawhi as DPOY, and i don't think that's the case....

Happens all the time, albeit usually with retired players. With Kawhi I get the feeling it's being done prematurely because of the vacancy at the top spot. People feel they have to build the strongest case possible for why he's the best player in the world. An offensive superstar who has all time defensive impact looks more convincing than an offensive superstar with merely good defensive impact, or a good offensive player with all time defensive impact.

Triples333 · Post #767 » by **Triples333** » Mon Jun 3, 2019 2:45 pm

I do think it's notable that Kawhi does not rate in the top 10 in multi year RPM/PIPM. He is incredibly valuable when fully engaged, but I don't see a Curry or even Durant level impact from him. I see KD as a tier just above Kawhi, and Curry a tier just above KD from a team impact stand point. And while his D is fantastic against the right matchup (Giannis for example), I'm not sure it has been game altering in this series. Siakim's and VanVleet's have actually both been more disruptive thus far for Toronto.

clyde21 · Post #768 » by **clyde21** » Mon Jun 3, 2019 3:51 pm

Triples333 wrote:I do think it's notable that Kawhi does not rate in the top 10 in multi year RPM/PIPM. He is incredibly valuable when fully engaged, but I don't see a Curry or even Durant level impact from him. I see KD as a tier just above Kawhi, and Curry a tier just above KD from a team impact stand point. And while his D is fantastic against the right matchup (Giannis for example), I'm not sure it has been game altering in this series. Siakim's and VanVleet's have actually both been more disruptive thus far for Toronto.

that's because he's not a very good creator for other players nor an orchestrator of offense...that's his biggest drawback as an offensive player and why I just can't put him as the best player in the league. it caps his impact overall.

he can drive and kick but that's really the extent of his playmaking.

Dr Spaceman · Post #769 » by **Dr Spaceman** » Tue Jun 4, 2019 10:24 am

I am seriously considering Draymond Green for POY. If the Warriors actually pull this off with all the injuries they’ve sustained... to me he becomes the clear most valuable player on the best team in the league. The run he’s on this postseason is **** out of this world. I know he went all fat Thor in the RS, and if that puts him out of contention for #1 for some so be it... but I think he’s neck and neck with Kawhi for best overall player in the playoffs.

Jaivl · Post #770 » by **Jaivl** » Tue Jun 4, 2019 12:09 pm

Dr Spaceman wrote:I am seriously considering Draymond Green for POY. If the Warriors actually pull this off with all the injuries they’ve sustained... to me he becomes the clear most valuable player on the best team in the league. The run he’s on this postseason is **** out of this world. I know he went all fat Thor in the RS, and if that puts him out of contention for #1 for some so be it... but I think he’s neck and neck with Kawhi for best overall player in the playoffs.

Phew, good, now he's officially jinxed.

HeartBreakKid · Post #771 » by **HeartBreakKid** » Tue Jun 4, 2019 12:57 pm

Jaivl wrote:
Dr Spaceman wrote:I am seriously considering Draymond Green for POY. If the Warriors actually pull this off with all the injuries they’ve sustained... to me he becomes the clear most valuable player on the best team in the league. The run he’s on this postseason is **** out of this world. I know he went all fat Thor in the RS, and if that puts him out of contention for #1 for some so be it... but I think he’s neck and neck with Kawhi for best overall player in the playoffs.

Phew, good, now he's officially jinxed.

how did you become a fan of ucla and the spurs? are you from an anglo country originally?

Jaivl · Post #772 » by **Jaivl** » Tue Jun 4, 2019 2:57 pm

HeartBreakKid wrote:
Jaivl wrote:
Dr Spaceman wrote:I am seriously considering Draymond Green for POY. If the Warriors actually pull this off with all the injuries they’ve sustained... to me he becomes the clear most valuable player on the best team in the league. The run he’s on this postseason is **** out of this world. I know he went all fat Thor in the RS, and if that puts him out of contention for #1 for some so be it... but I think he’s neck and neck with Kawhi for best overall player in the playoffs.

Phew, good, now he's officially jinxed.

how did you become a fan of ucla and the spurs? are you from an anglo country originally?

Spurs - My fav football team is the Deportivo, but it's not in the options so I just put my fav from the UK. Fix it, mods (?).
UCLA - idk, I like the colours or something. Haven't really followed NCAA for a couple of years, though.

Post #773 » by **Doctor MJ** » Wed Jun 5, 2019 3:39 am

ElGee's analysis here is eye-opening to me. "Wall of the North" indeed.

Watch on YouTube

Dr Spaceman · Post #774 » by **Dr Spaceman** » Wed Jun 5, 2019 8:26 am

Doctor MJ wrote:ElGee's analysis here is eye-opening to me. "Wall of the North" indeed.

Watch on YouTube

I didn’t realize how bad the Bledsoe thing was in real time and it’s genuinely shocking that 1 subpar shooter can torpedo things so badly. Of course Giannis’ lack of a midrange game compounds things pretty hugely.

Post #775 » by **Doctor MJ** » Wed Jun 5, 2019 1:58 pm

Dr Spaceman wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:ElGee's analysis here is eye-opening to me. "Wall of the North" indeed.

Watch on YouTube

I didn’t realize how bad the Bledsoe thing was in real time and it’s genuinely shocking that 1 subpar shooter can torpedo things so badly. Of course Giannis’ lack of a midrange game compounds things pretty hugely.

As bad as Bledsoe is, I think we really saw what a forced fit it is to have Giannis as your point. He's just not that high BBIQ, and while he'll hopefully keep getting better, clearly playmaking ability is not what has driven building around Giannis like they've done. He's got talents that make him most effective when the ball is in his hand but isn't a scary shooting threat, and thus it makes sense to consider playing him the same way you would LeBron...but it's going to hurt you that he can't see the game like LeBron.

More than anything else though I'm struck by how much of this is about Nurse rather than Kawhi. The Raptors built walls which prevented Giannis' euro step, and he really wasn't able to recover from that...but when it really was just Giannis vs Kawhi, Kawhi really wasn't doing that well.

I've previously said that while I'm cautious about moving players up or down based on a playoff series upset, if the guy on the winning team outplayed his rival I'd tend to give him the nod. Hence, Kawhi's been ahead of Giannis on my list since the end of that series. But of course, if what we're really talking about is Nurse outcoaching Bud, and Giannis was glaringly the more accomplished player all year long prior to Kawhi's coach coming up with the winning counterstrategy, does it really make sense to treat the series like it trumps everything else?

Honestly at this moment, makes me feel like I was too reactionary and I should still have Giannis ahead of Kawhi on my list.

Post #776 » by **Outside** » Wed Jun 5, 2019 2:54 pm

Doctor MJ wrote:ElGee's analysis here is eye-opening to me. "Wall of the North" indeed.

Watch on YouTube

Another great breakdown. After those losses in games 1 and 2, Nurse went all in on packing the paint / building the wall to force Giannis' playmaking and others' shooting to beat them, and they didn't.

Even if he isn't naturally gifted as a playmaker like LeBron, Giannis will get better at it. Being able to recognize the pass to the backside is something players can learn.

The problem is the Bucks roster. They have lots of free agents this summer, but Bledsoe isn't one of them. His contract runs four more years -- yikes. Meanwhile, Brogdon, Lopez, and Mirotic are free agents. They built their model around Giannis' ability to get to the hoop and surrounding him with shooters to kick to when the defense collapses, and it led them to the best record in the league, but those shooters weren't playoff quality, and add in Giannis' limited playmaking ability and a top defense, and they got beat.

Mirotic should've been an asset but instead shot 28.9 3PT% in the PS. Tony Snell was productive from three during the RS but was apparently unplayable in the PS. Ilysova shot only 30.0 and Lopez 29.3 3PT% in the PS. Middleton, Brogdon, Hill, and Connaughton were good but not enough.

This is a big offseason for the Bucks. We'll see what they do now that their limitations have been exposed.

As far as POY goes, I this is where I'm at:

Giannis
Harden
Kawhi
Curry
Jokic

I expect Harden to fall to fourth by the time the finals are over, but I don't know if Kawhi or Curry will overtake Giannis.

Eskobar13 · Post #777 » by **Eskobar13** » Wed Jun 5, 2019 2:59 pm

Let's just get one thing clear here: if they feel like they need to trade Bledsoe for a PG who can shoot, they shouldn't have any problems doing so. And although he absolutely isn't a great fit on offense next to Giannis, I really think how good this Raptors D was and the strategy they used completely exacerbated his issues.

iggymcfrack · Post #778 » by **iggymcfrack** » Thu Jun 6, 2019 5:01 am

Curry moves clearly into my Top 5 with another nice performance tonight.

1. Kawhi
2. Giannis
3. Harden
4. Jokic
5. Curry

Been seeing people diminish Kawhi a little bit in this thread, and bring up guys like Draymond as a possibility, but Draymond also took the entire regular season off and Kawhi has a better NetRtg and on/off despite not playing with another starter that’s anywhere close to Steph in terms of those two metrics.

Basileus777 · Post #779 » by **Basileus777** » Thu Jun 6, 2019 5:17 am

What's keeping Kawhi lower on my list is that I think a large portion of the credit he gets on defense is still a product of the reputation he built up in his younger years. And I just don't think he has anywhere near the offensive impact of a Curry or Harden. Combine that with an unspectacular regular season, and I don't see his case for being POTY as being especially convincing.

Jaivl · Post #780 » by **Jaivl** » Thu Jun 6, 2019 9:32 am

Jaivl wrote:
Dr Spaceman wrote:I am seriously considering Draymond Green for POY. If the Warriors actually pull this off with all the injuries they’ve sustained... to me he becomes the clear most valuable player on the best team in the league. The run he’s on this postseason is **** out of this world. I know he went all fat Thor in the RS, and if that puts him out of contention for #1 for some so be it... but I think he’s neck and neck with Kawhi for best overall player in the playoffs.

Phew, good, now he's officially jinxed.

Undo it, it's not interesting like this.