Kawhi vs LeBron

[Woody Allen]

So let me understand...
LeBron needed to build a superteam in Miami to win a championship and then needed to build a superteam in Cleveland to win a championship, while Kawhi can just win a championship in any team you put him in?
And some people still think LeBron is better than Kawhi?

raptors have more talent than than any of lebron's cavs teams

That's such tired BS. The Raptors just play better as a team. In terms of 'talent' they have been quite comparable. Stop making pathetic excuses for Lebron.

2016 Cavs had less talent? The narrative keeps getting twisted to fit a certain agenda here.

[Amares]

LeBron had 6-8 better playoff runs than current Kawhi. People just ignore that today, because it was so normal for years that LeBron played on GOAT level, that they didn't talk about it even. LeBron is GOAT, if Kawhi keep his current PO level for 5-7 years we will discuss this topic again.

[Hobo4President]

Kawhi will have more win shares than any Michael Jordan playoff run ever, he also beats 3peat Jordan in just about everything statistically. This playoff run and finals series in particular has made Kawhi pass up 96-98 Jordan and move comparable to 1991-1993 Jordan and 2012-2016 LeBron.

This is laughable and stupid. Please don't use stats like WS when you clearly don't even understand how they work.

MJ has 6 playoff runs with a higher WS/48 compared to Kawhi this year (actually Kawhi had a much better WS/48 in the playoffs his last year in SA). In any case WS isn't a great stat in general

Kawhi's passing / playmaking is nowhere near the level of first 3 peat MJ (who also scored quite a bit more than Kawhi)

He's much closer to 2nd threepeat MJ... but even then MJ scored more and was a better passer. The closest year is probably 1998 given MJ's reduced passing that year....Kawhi probably has some efficiency advantages (very hard to adjust for era/rules), but MJ scored at much higher rate. (44.5 / 100 vs 39.8 /100). Defense might be a wash (Kawhi plays great defense in spurts now.. but (understandably) his defense has fallen off quite a bit with his higher offensive responsibilities)


I really, really like Kawhi as a player...but your ridiculous over the top stanning is getting really dumb

Higher win shares because kawhi is carrying bigger loads and playing more games while doing it. Leonard's win shares are higher because he was carrying a bigger load than jordan ever did and had to play more games as well. Its also maybe because kawhi doesn't have any player who can even hold scottie pippens jockstrap in terms of overall impact.

Kawhi gets marc gasol lookin like sabonis after 10 surgeries on the rebounds, while jordan gets the greatest rebounder to ever play in nba history I see how that's fair. Kawhi will still have game winning offensive rebounds games 4 2nd round and games 5/6 ECF. I'm not going to ignore the facts just because you were a kid hugging your teddy bear when Jordan was playing and it gives you nostalgia, kawhi is comparable whether you like it or not.

This is why casual fans shouldn't use advanced stats

[C3H6N6O6]

So let me understand...
LeBron needed to build a superteam in Miami to win a championship and then needed to build a superteam in Cleveland to win a championship, while Kawhi can just win a championship in any team you put him in?
And some people still think LeBron is better than Kawhi?

raptors have more talent than than any of lebron's cavs teams

That's such BS. The Raptors just play better as a team. In terms of 'talent' they have been quite comparable. Stop making pathetic excuses for Lebron.

I would take 2016 Cavs over the 2019 Raptors in 6 games.

[Infinite Llamas]

So let me understand...
LeBron needed to build a superteam in Miami to win a championship and then needed to build a superteam in Cleveland to win a championship, while Kawhi can just win a championship in any team you put him in?
And some people still think LeBron is better than Kawhi?

raptors have more talent than than any of lebron's cavs teams

That's such tired BS. The Raptors just play better as a team. In terms of 'talent' they have been quite comparable. Stop making pathetic excuses for Lebron.

2016 Cavs had less talent? The narrative keeps getting twisted to fit a certain agenda here.

I agree...replace Love and Irving with Siakam and Lowry do the Cavs still win in 2016? My guess is probably not.

[C3H6N6O6]

So let me understand...
LeBron needed to build a superteam in Miami to win a championship and then needed to build a superteam in Cleveland to win a championship, while Kawhi can just win a championship in any team you put him in?
And some people still think LeBron is better than Kawhi?

raptors have more talent than than any of lebron's cavs teams

That's such tired BS. The Raptors just play better as a team. In terms of 'talent' they have been quite comparable. Stop making pathetic excuses for Lebron.

2016 Cavs had less talent? The narrative keeps getting twisted to fit a certain agenda here.

I agree with you that 2016 Cavs had more talent but you are also using a bad narrative that Cavs didn't play well as a team.
Both 2016 Cavs and 2016 Warriors were better teams than 2019 Raptors on paper and on court.
Cavs made the best of what they had. Their team was created to beat teams like Spurs and upcoming teams like the Warriors. No one accounted for KD going to the Warriors.

By the Way, KD is not playing in these finals.

[TrustFundBaby]

raptors have more talent than than any of lebron's cavs teams

I disagree with this. They just use the talent better. Their offense is nearer GSW offense, which means better ball movement. Better ball movement creates more wide open shots and easier basket's. Problem with ball moving offense is that everyone have to sacrifice in the offense. Lebron's teams were iso team's. Miami teams players were hand picked to fit very well in that idea. Cavs team's players not as much, specially the last year. But it doesn't mean players had less talent. Last years Cavs in the beginning of the year had more MVP's than any other team in NBA, so they had talent, but no will or skill to use it.

It's almost as if defense is also part of the equation...

LeBron’s 2018 run is better than this run.

That being said, Kawhi is **** awesome! And I love the dude.

Not buying that... the east was absolute trash last year. Raptors/Bucks/Sixers would all destroy every 2018 east team.

Heck - it's pretty obvious at this point that Kawhi will have gone through the top 3 teams in the playoffs on his way to a title if they close it out.

GS, Philly, Bucks are all true championship level contenders

LeBron ran an overall better gauntlet of defenses than what Kawhi faced this season. Boston was neck and neck with Utah for #1, Raptors was top 5, and Indiana was playing like one of the best defensive teams in the league heading into those playoffs under Nate McMillan.

The Magic were ok, and Embiid was injured in the playoffs. Bucks were still the Bucks however. Overall, LeBron faced tougher Defensive matchups in 2018 with a worse supporting cast and put up better numbers.

Those Raptors had a fraudulent defense. In the RS it was cooked by top offenses while it was good for snuffing out weak offenses.

Post ASB ORL are a better defensive team than any of LBJs opponents last yr

[-G-]

Kawhi has had 2 seasons, including this one, where he's been at a superstar level. He's awesome, but come on.

[Vibranium]

Bull fans and Raptor fans working overtime on this thread.

[Jakay]

Okay honestly, put current old LeBron on this Raps team and they're just as good. Maybe not much better, but this is a team game, and this is a great Raptors team, anyone is gonna look good as the superstar.

Kawhi has been nothing short of (the most visually unspectacular version of) spectacular, but he's got a long way to go to put together the kind of resume LeBron boasts. Like you can make arguments for top 5 a million different ways, but anyone who doesn't have Bron somewhere in there is just mental. Kawhi? Give him some years to see if he can crack top 10.

[XxIronChainzxX]

So let me understand...
LeBron needed to build a superteam in Miami to win a championship and then needed to build a superteam in Cleveland to win a championship, while Kawhi can just win a championship in any team you put him in?
And some people still think LeBron is better than Kawhi?

Cleveland was not a super team. Kyrie was the only guy there who was worthwhile, and even after his championship most of realgm picked him as a being around 15-20. Love barely counts.

The difference is that Toronto has an insane defense. Putting aside Kawhi, the roleplayers from Gasol, Green, Siakam and Lowry are exceptional defensively. LeBron didn't have that in Cleveland.

Kevin Love coming off back to back All NBA 2nd Team was the Cavs 3rd best player.

It must be nice when your 3rd best player averaged 26pts 13reb 4ast shooting 42% from 3 the year before , but you’re not a super team.

According to Bron stans Bosh and Love were overpaid role players. God you Bron stans are insufferable. Every player Bron played with is trash but at the same time you believe Bron makes his teammates better...

It has nothing to do with being a LeBron Stan - saying that Bosh is a top 20 player is not somehow excusing LeBron for his cupcake move. Having your 3rd best player be the 20th best guy in the NBA is absurd. Just because I don't think Bosh was a superstar - because he wasn't - doesn't mean I don't think he was a great player or that LeBron wasn't a huge cupcake who cheesed his way to 2 rings.

But Cleveland round 2 is different. Love got his 2nd teams as a stat stuffer on teams he couldn't even carry to .500. They were 26-40 in his 1st season, and 40-42 in his second. They weren't consecutive berths on the 2nd team. No one will ever convince me that Kevin Love was actually a deserving 2nd team player anymore than you'll convince me DeMar DeRozan deserved it last year. Despite the lack of accolades, Bosh was far superior and proved it. Kyrie is a player who has elite (if streaky) offense and that's it. He's nowhere near Wade's level.

It's not stanning to point out the truth, and it doesn't mean that LeBron isn't as big of a cupcake as KD - he was just worse at it.

[freestyler34]

Lebron was being praised like crazy and almost announced GOAT for making finals in the East with other 2 All Stars, Kawhi did it in his first season with no other 2 all stars and in a harder East while Lebron couldnt even make playoffs in the West.

[yoyoboy]

This thread has so many dumb takes I don’t even know where to start. Like I said earlier in the playoffs when everyone was mistakenly calling Harden a choker despite how they well he performed individually, or when they were saying that the Warriors were better without Durant, very very few people on this site have any ability to keep things in perspective. It actually amazes me how frequently most posters as of late are employing lazy narratives and ignoring context, stats, etc. I definitely think the age range of posters here is getting younger because it seems like most of the good posters have flocked to the PC board and the General Board is starting to get filled with Inside Hoops castoffs.

Kawhi has been amazing but no, he hasn’t been playing at a top 5 all-time peak level. If you’ve been watching this series and you can’t tell what an amazing all-around team Toronto is, your basketball analysis skills are flawed. It’s especially confusing to watch all these Raptors fans suddenly trashing all the other players on their team in an attempt to prop Kawhi up, as if Lowry, Siakam, Ibaka, Gasol, and the rest haven’t been HUGE contributors.

I think Golden State fans have been the most level headed fanbase on this site lately. They’ve been to the Finals and done this dance enough times to not get caught up in the moment and maintain some objectivity.

[nbafan77]

Lol I’m not even a big LBJ fan but come on now!!
How many MVP does KL have?
I like KL but he isn’t even a top 20 all time. LBJ is easily top 5!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Hobo4President]

This thread has so many dumb takes I don’t even know where to start. Like I said earlier in the playoffs when everyone was mistakenly calling Harden a choker despite how they well he performed individually, or when they were saying that the Warriors were better without Durant, very very few people on this site have any ability to keep things in perspective. It actually amazes me how frequently most posters as of late are employing lazy narratives and ignoring context, stats, etc. I definitely think the age range of posters here is getting younger because it seems like most of the good posters have flocked to the PC board and the General Board is starting to get filled with Inside Hoops castoffs.

Kawhi has been amazing but no, he hasn’t been playing at a top 5 all-time peak level. If you’ve been watching this series and you can’t tell what an amazing all-around team Toronto is, your basketball analysis skills are flawed. It’s especially confusing to watch all these Raptors fans suddenly trashing all the other players on their team in an attempt to prop Kawhi up, as if Lowry, Siakam, Ibaka, Gasol, and the rest haven’t been HUGE contributors.

I think Golden State fans have been the most level headed fanbase on this site lately. They’ve been to the Finals and done this dance enough times to not get caught up in the moment and maintain some objectivity.

Yeah dude the General Board is a **** show now. PC board is where it's at but even that's getting flooded with kids because of threads being moved from the GB. It's a sad day when notoriously bad GB posters seem moderate.

[TG81]

Lol I’m not even a big LBJ fan but come on now!!
How many MVP does KL have?
I like KL but he isn’t even a top 20 all time. LBJ is easily top 5!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

what is your criteria for top 20 and who would make your top 20?...asking for my friend paul pierce..

[nikster]

So let me understand...
LeBron needed to build a superteam in Miami to win a championship and then needed to build a superteam in Cleveland to win a championship, while Kawhi can just win a championship in any team you put him in?
And some people still think LeBron is better than Kawhi?

raptors have more talent than than any of lebron's cavs teams

That's such tired BS. The Raptors just play better as a team. In terms of 'talent' they have been quite comparable. Stop making pathetic excuses for Lebron.

2016 Cavs had less talent? The narrative keeps getting twisted to fit a certain agenda here.

It’s not that twisted. Pascal/Lowry and Love/Irving are comparable. Love was **** offensively that year so Pascal was better on both ends, Irving was a better scorer but Lowry better as playmaker and defender. Even if you give the edge to the Cavs there the rest of the roster is way better for the Raps.

Green is a far better defender and less dumb version of JR, he’s been cold early rounds so you can argue JR had a better post season overall but Green has had a great finals.
Front court is a massive edge for the raps, Gasol/Ibaka >>> TT/Frye
And the Powell/FVV are way better on both ends than the corpse of Richard Jefferson and the extremely flawed PG combo of Delly and Shump.

[GusFring]

if kahwai was beating a healthy warriors team it'd be much more impressive, sorry

[yoyoboy]

This thread has so many dumb takes I don’t even know where to start. Like I said earlier in the playoffs when everyone was mistakenly calling Harden a choker despite how they well he performed individually, or when they were saying that the Warriors were better without Durant, very very few people on this site have any ability to keep things in perspective. It actually amazes me how frequently most posters as of late are employing lazy narratives and ignoring context, stats, etc. I definitely think the age range of posters here is getting younger because it seems like most of the good posters have flocked to the PC board and the General Board is starting to get filled with Inside Hoops castoffs.

Kawhi has been amazing but no, he hasn’t been playing at a top 5 all-time peak level. If you’ve been watching this series and you can’t tell what an amazing all-around team Toronto is, your basketball analysis skills are flawed. It’s especially confusing to watch all these Raptors fans suddenly trashing all the other players on their team in an attempt to prop Kawhi up, as if Lowry, Siakam, Ibaka, Gasol, and the rest haven’t been HUGE contributors.

I think Golden State fans have been the most level headed fanbase on this site lately. They’ve been to the Finals and done this dance enough times to not get caught up in the moment and maintain some objectivity.

Yeah dude the General Board is a **** show now. PC board is where it's at but even that's getting flooded with kids because of threads being moved from the GB. It's a sad day when notoriously bad GB posters seem moderate.

The PC board has always been significantly better and possessed a different culture, but it's pretty noticeable to me how much worse the GB has gotten in the last year or so. So reactionary, so hostile, so whiny, so lacking in objectivity, and always painting everything as black or white with no middle ground. It's getting harder to bear.

[tdotrep2]

lebron has been at this for ages c'mon. I will say tho this kawhi run might be the most impressive thing either has done, its ridiculous but at the same time its not the same as doing something kinda similar for 10 years.