Here were the last few posts from the Part 1:
Netaman wrote:Prokorov wrote:
KAT is an empty stats player who gets his at everyone elses expense, plays 0 defense, and has a terrible work ethic, Kyrie is roughly infinity plus 1 times better
What exactly has Kyrie done to prove he's not an empty stats player himself? There are only about 10 guys in the NBA who have proven they impact the game way beyond their stats. Those guys are in the MVP convo year after year and carried teams to the playoffs or taken their teams to a new level not previously attained. I'm not saying Kyrie can't do that, just that he hasn't. And that he's also routinely missed games - twice requiring knee surgeries that forced him to miss the postseason in last 5 years.
The question isn't whether he's got great ability or worth a max - he's a bonafide all star and he is worth a max. It's about where he ranks among the subset of max players who aren't in that top tier. That second tier is full of stat stuffers but with rare abilities that in the right team environment can be championship caliber. They are projections on the hope that they will take that step up to the elite tier in the right situation the way Harden and the Greek freak did.
If this offseason was just add kyrie or don't add him, I'd imagine everyone would be thrilled to add him because he'd instantly be the best player on the team. But it's not. The question this offseason is similarly how to rank him in relation to the other max options available, as well as how much more value he'll produce over the next several years compared to DLo. I'm less bullish on him than you are. I see some shades of both Marbury + DWill.
Prokorov wrote:Netaman wrote:What exactly has Kyrie done to prove he's not an empty stats player himself?
1) won a title as a top 2 player on his team, hitting the biggest shot of the series, beating a 73-win team
2) Lead a team to 55+ wins as its best player, and a top 2 seed in the conference
KAT has done neither. or come even close.The question isn't whether he's got great ability or worth a max - he's a bonafide all star and he is worth a max. It's about where he ranks among the subset of max players who aren't in that top tier. That second tier is full of stat stuffers but with rare abilities that in the right team environment can be championship caliber. They are projections on the hope that they will take that step up to the elite tier in the right situation the way Harden and the Greek freak did.
he is a top 12 player. period. some years he has been top 8.If this offseason was just add kyrie or don't add him, I'd imagine everyone would be thrilled to add him because he'd instantly be the best player on the team. But it's not. The question this offseason is similarly how to rank him in relation to the other max options available, as well as how much more value he'll produce over the next several years compared to DLo. I'm less bullish on him than you are. I see some shades of both Marbury + DWill.
Kyrie is clearly behind durant and kawhi. but thats the only 2 FA's he is behind. if you factor age then no one below him is even close. he is signifcantly better then Russell, who i love and want to stay.
vincecarter4pres wrote:Prokorov wrote:Netaman wrote:What exactly has Kyrie done to prove he's not an empty stats player himself?
1) won a title as a top 2 player on his team, hitting the biggest shot of the series, beating a 73-win team
2) Lead a team to 55+ wins as its best player, and a top 2 seed in the conference
KAT has done neither. or come even close.The question isn't whether he's got great ability or worth a max - he's a bonafide all star and he is worth a max. It's about where he ranks among the subset of max players who aren't in that top tier. That second tier is full of stat stuffers but with rare abilities that in the right team environment can be championship caliber. They are projections on the hope that they will take that step up to the elite tier in the right situation the way Harden and the Greek freak did.
he is a top 12 player. period. some years he has been top 8.If this offseason was just add kyrie or don't add him, I'd imagine everyone would be thrilled to add him because he'd instantly be the best player on the team. But it's not. The question this offseason is similarly how to rank him in relation to the other max options available, as well as how much more value he'll produce over the next several years compared to DLo. I'm less bullish on him than you are. I see some shades of both Marbury + DWill.
Kyrie is clearly behind durant and kawhi. but thats the only 2 FA's he is behind. if you factor age then no one below him is even close. he is signifcantly better then Russell, who i love and want to stay.
Yeah I struggle to name more than 10 players better than him. There are another 3 or 4 who have a completely legitimate argument because they're basically his equal, but 10 or 11 better than him is about right.
LeBron
Kawhi
Durant
Curry
Harden
Giannis
Embiid
AD
PG
All definitely better.
Jokic is probably better.
Lillard, Westbrook and Jimmy Butler all have legit arguments for sure.
But after that you drop an entire tier. He is clearly in the above grouping.
