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What's your breaking point (in $) for resigning Vucevic?

Moderators: Def Swami, Howard Mass, UCFJayBird, UCF, ChosenSavior, Knightro, SOUL

I wouldn't pay Vuc anything more than $ ___ Million per year on his next 4 year contract.

$30M
3
4%
$29M
0
No votes
$28M
1
1%
$27M
4
6%
$26M
1
1%
$25M
18
25%
$24M
10
14%
$23M
5
7%
$22M
11
15%
$21M
19
26%
 
Total votes: 72

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Re: What's your breaking point (in $) for resigning Vucevic? 

Post#261 » by BadMofoPimp » Sun Jun 9, 2019 10:52 pm

Xatticus wrote:
MoMM wrote:
ezzzp wrote:
You do know that the voters are a panel of writers and journalists mostly composed of mainstream guys that aren't paid to pay attention to small markets unless they are in contention or have a superstar drawing national attention...I bet most who voted didn't watch the Magic for first time this year until playoffs.

...and even with that, this was the Center Voting:

1 Jokic
2 Embiid
3 Gobert
4 Towns
5 Vucevic
6 Drummond
7 Davis
8 Turner

I'd say he had a better season than Towns, so he should be #4, however we all not that AD is better than him, so #5 seems right.


If anything, Towns is underappreciated due to Minnesota's struggles in the Western Conference.


To give KAT credit, he did post 24.4ppg 12.4rpg 3.4apg 1.6bpg .9spg while also shooting 40% from 3 point taking 4.6 per game.
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Re: What's your breaking point (in $) for resigning Vucevic? 

Post#262 » by ezzzp » Sun Jun 9, 2019 11:29 pm

Xatticus wrote:
MoMM wrote:
ezzzp wrote:
You do know that the voters are a panel of writers and journalists mostly composed of mainstream guys that aren't paid to pay attention to small markets unless they are in contention or have a superstar drawing national attention...I bet most who voted didn't watch the Magic for first time this year until playoffs.

...and even with that, this was the Center Voting:

1 Jokic
2 Embiid
3 Gobert
4 Towns
5 Vucevic
6 Drummond
7 Davis
8 Turner

I'd say he had a better season than Towns, so he should be #4, however we all not that AD is better than him, so #5 seems right.


If anything, Towns is underappreciated due to Minnesota's struggles in the Western Conference.


Minnesota's struggles were on the defensive end. That is main reason they lost a lot.

They were the 24th worst defense in the NBA last season. Prior to the Butler trade they were ranked 20th, after the Butler trade they were 29th worst defense in NBA. Somewhere in there the C position - which is position that anchors defenses - has to have some level of responsibility no?

Shouldn't he be held most accountable for Minnesota's struggles since he's their franchise player? Playing in the west doesn't excuse that futile of a defense...and its not like they were good vs the "weak" East (14-16)...vs West they were 22-30.
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Re: What's your breaking point (in $) for resigning Vucevic? 

Post#263 » by Xatticus » Mon Jun 10, 2019 12:48 am

ezzzp wrote:
Xatticus wrote:
MoMM wrote:I'd say he had a better season than Towns, so he should be #4, however we all not that AD is better than him, so #5 seems right.


If anything, Towns is underappreciated due to Minnesota's struggles in the Western Conference.


Minnesota's struggles were on the defensive end. That is main reason they lost a lot.

They were the 24th worst defense in the NBA last season. Prior to the Butler trade they were ranked 20th, after the Butler trade they were 29th worst defense in NBA. Somewhere in there the C position - which is position that anchors defenses - has to have some level of responsibility no?

Shouldn't he be held most accountable for Minnesota's struggles since he's their franchise player? Playing in the west doesn't excuse that futile of a defense...and its not like they were good vs the "weak" East (14-16)...vs West they were 22-30.


They lost a lot? Minnesota lost 46 games. We lost 40. My statement was in reference to the fact that they finished 12 games adrift from the playoffs; not a statement to the quality of that team. If they were in the East, they would've been in the playoff race up until the final week of the season.

Minnesota's problem is that their "franchise player" (Wiggins - the guy with the worst contract in the NBA) does more damage to his team than any other player in the NBA. KAT is clearly their best player, but he was actually still on his rookie deal last season.

And when did Vucevic become a good defender? The guy has "anchored" more than his share of bad defenses. Vucevic is a lumbering big that camped in the paint in Clifford's scheme. He was easy to exploit in the pick-and-roll all season because he simply sagged into the paint. He can't switch. He can't hedge and recover. Toronto scorched our defense when he was on the floor in the playoffs because immobile bigs are very easy to exploit if you game plan for them.

Towns has higher career block and rebound rates. He could easily step into Vucevic's defensive role without doing significant damage to our defense because Clifford asks so little from Vucevic at that end. The difference between the two at the offensive end is vast. KAT is one of the best offensive players on the planet and we would be a better team right now if we had him on our roster in place of Vucevic.
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Re: What's your breaking point (in $) for resigning Vucevic? 

Post#264 » by PrimeThyme » Mon Jun 10, 2019 1:31 am

MoMM wrote:
ezzzp wrote:
MagicMatic wrote:
Obviously the voters didn’t think so. Too bad.


You do know that the voters are a panel of writers and journalists mostly composed of mainstream guys that aren't paid to pay attention to small markets unless they are in contention or have a superstar drawing national attention...I bet most who voted didn't watch the Magic for first time this year until playoffs.

...and even with that, this was the Center Voting:

1 Jokic
2 Embiid
3 Gobert
4 Towns
5 Vucevic
6 Drummond
7 Davis
8 Turner

I'd say he had a better season than Towns, so he should be #4, however we all not that AD is better than him, so #5 seems right.

No, he didn't actually. Towns numbers are significantly better across the board and he played in the better conference. 24 ppg, 12.4 rpg, 3.4 apg, 1.6 bpg, 51 fg%, 40 3pt fg%, 26.3 PER, and had a 6.8 BPM compared to Vucs 20 ppg, 12 rpg, 3.8 apg, 1.1 bpg, 51.8 fg%, 36.4 3pt fg%, 25.5 PER, and had a 6.4 BPM. Towns also had the better efg%.

Towns is one of the most underrated players in the league. Its really a shame that Wiggins sucks up so much of that teams cap and that Towns plays in a market that doesn't get much national spotlight because he is a fantastic young player.
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Re: What's your breaking point (in $) for resigning Vucevic? 

Post#265 » by ezzzp » Mon Jun 10, 2019 11:39 pm

PrimeThyme wrote:No, he didn't actually. Towns numbers are significantly better across the board and he played in the better conference. 24 ppg, 12.4 rpg, 3.4 apg, 1.6 bpg, 51 fg%, 40 3pt fg%, 26.3 PER, and had a 6.8 BPM compared to Vucs 20 ppg, 12 rpg, 3.8 apg, 1.1 bpg, 51.8 fg%, 36.4 3pt fg%, 25.5 PER, and had a 6.4 BPM. Towns also had the better efg%.

Towns is one of the most underrated players in the league. Its really a shame that Wiggins sucks up so much of that teams cap and that Towns plays in a market that doesn't get much national spotlight because he is a fantastic young player.


...on the defensive end of the equation, Vucevic and the Magic were the 8th ranked defense in the NBA, Towns and Wolves were the 24th ranked defense.

DEFENSIVE FG%

< 6ft
Towns: 55.7 DFG% / -6.9 impact on opponents FG%
Vucevic: 54.8 DFG% / -7.4 impact on opponents FG%
< 10ft
Towns: 51.4 DFG% / -6.0 impact on opponents FG%
Vucevic: 52.2 DFG% / -5.1 impact on opponents FG%
> 15ft
Towns: 40.9 DFG% / +4.8 impact on opponents FG%
Vucevic: 40.9 DFG% / +4.3 impact on opponents FG%
< 3PT
Towns: 40.2 DFG% / +5.4 impact on opponents FG%
Vucevic: 38.5 DFG% / +3.7 impact on opponents FG%

DEFENSIVE RPM / NBA RANK
Towns: 0.83 / 148TH
Vucevic: 3.59 / 8TH

DEFENSIVE REBOUNDING
Towns: 25.7 DREB%
Vucevic: 28.6 DREB%

DEFLECTIONS
Towns: 121
Vucevic: 127

STEALS
Towns: 67
Vucevic: 81

BLOCKS
Towns: 125
Vucevic: 89

...another set of skills to compare are creation, screening, and box outs...the making teammates better part of the equation:

ASSIST %
Towns: 16.9
Vucevic: 20.8

AST PTS CREATED / ADJUSTED ASSISTS
Towns: 628 / 305
Vucevic: 759 / 336

SCREEN ASSISTS
Towns: 185
Vucevic: 350

BOX OUTS/DEF BOX OUTS
Towns: 423 / 370
Vucevic: 719 / 662
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Re: What's your breaking point (in $) for resigning Vucevic? 

Post#266 » by yoyojw17 » Tue Jun 11, 2019 12:16 am

PrimeThyme wrote:
MoMM wrote:
ezzzp wrote:
You do know that the voters are a panel of writers and journalists mostly composed of mainstream guys that aren't paid to pay attention to small markets unless they are in contention or have a superstar drawing national attention...I bet most who voted didn't watch the Magic for first time this year until playoffs.

...and even with that, this was the Center Voting:

1 Jokic
2 Embiid
3 Gobert
4 Towns
5 Vucevic
6 Drummond
7 Davis
8 Turner

I'd say he had a better season than Towns, so he should be #4, however we all not that AD is better than him, so #5 seems right.

No, he didn't actually. Towns numbers are significantly better across the board and he played in the better conference. 24 ppg, 12.4 rpg, 3.4 apg, 1.6 bpg, 51 fg%, 40 3pt fg%, 26.3 PER, and had a 6.8 BPM compared to Vucs 20 ppg, 12 rpg, 3.8 apg, 1.1 bpg, 51.8 fg%, 36.4 3pt fg%, 25.5 PER, and had a 6.4 BPM. Towns also had the better efg%.

Towns is one of the most underrated players in the league. Its really a shame that Wiggins sucks up so much of that teams cap and that Towns plays in a market that doesn't get much national spotlight because he is a fantastic young player.

Won't say signiiiiiificantly.... especially since some of those numbers will either get closer or even Vuc takes the lead if it is done per 36 min. needless to say... both are great talents... but yes... Towns is special player for sure.
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Re: What's your breaking point (in $) for resigning Vucevic? 

Post#267 » by drsd » Tue Jun 11, 2019 1:40 pm

If Vučević gets a 4-year Max deal, I wonder what it would take from Orlando get him to resign.
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Re: What's your breaking point (in $) for resigning Vucevic? 

Post#268 » by MartinsIzAfraud » Tue Jun 11, 2019 1:50 pm

drsd wrote:If Vučević gets a 4-year Max deal, I wonder what it would take from Orlando get him to resign.

don't think it would matter as I don't see this FO going above 22M starting declining contract
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Re: What's your breaking point (in $) for resigning Vucevic? 

Post#269 » by ezzzp » Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:31 pm

Xatticus wrote:They lost a lot? Minnesota lost 46 games. We lost 40. My statement was in reference to the fact that they finished 12 games adrift from the playoffs; not a statement to the quality of that team. If they were in the East, they would've been in the playoff race up until the final week of the season.

Minnesota's problem is that their "franchise player" (Wiggins - the guy with the worst contract in the NBA) does more damage to his team than any other player in the NBA. KAT is clearly their best player, but he was actually still on his rookie deal last season.

And when did Vucevic become a good defender? The guy has "anchored" more than his share of bad defenses. Vucevic is a lumbering big that camped in the paint in Clifford's scheme. He was easy to exploit in the pick-and-roll all season because he simply sagged into the paint. He can't switch. He can't hedge and recover. Toronto scorched our defense when he was on the floor in the playoffs because immobile bigs are very easy to exploit if you game plan for them.

Towns has higher career block and rebound rates. He could easily step into Vucevic's defensive role without doing significant damage to our defense because Clifford asks so little from Vucevic at that end. The difference between the two at the offensive end is vast. KAT is one of the best offensive players on the planet and we would be a better team right now if we had him on our roster in place of Vucevic.



6 games is a substantial amount in an 82 game context. 6 more wins makes Orlando a 48 win team.

36-46 is an 11th seed in the East. Their SRS was -1.02 in the bottom third of the NBA (20th). The Magic's SRS was +0.28 ranked 14 in NBA. Simple Rating System accounts for strength of schedule and point differential.

Minnesota's problem is that they play an undisciplined stat padding style of basketball on both ends. Towns isn't exempt from that, he IS their franchise player. He had highest USG on the team (27.9) the next closest player was at considerably lower 23.9 USG...that was Wiggins. Towns got the vast amount of touches as well: 73.3 Touches per game...Wiggins isn't even remotely close with 48.0 touches.

AND on the defensive end of the equation, Vucevic and the Magic were the 8th ranked defense in the NBA, Towns and Wolves were the 24th ranked defense. Vucevic is a major factor for that difference:

Spoiler:
DEFENSIVE FG%

< 6ft
Towns: 55.7 DFG% / -6.9 impact on opponents FG%
Vucevic: 54.8 DFG% / -7.4 impact on opponents FG%
< 10ft
Towns: 51.4 DFG% / -6.0 impact on opponents FG%
Vucevic: 52.2 DFG% / -5.1 impact on opponents FG%
> 15ft
Towns: 40.9 DFG% / +4.8 impact on opponents FG%
Vucevic: 40.9 DFG% / +4.3 impact on opponents FG%
< 3PT
Towns: 40.2 DFG% / +5.4 impact on opponents FG%
Vucevic: 38.5 DFG% / +3.7 impact on opponents FG%

DEFENSIVE RPM / NBA RANK
Towns: 0.83 / 148TH
Vucevic: 3.59 / 8TH

DEFENSIVE REBOUNDING
Towns: 25.7 DREB%
Vucevic: 28.6 DREB%

DEFLECTIONS
Towns: 121
Vucevic: 127

STEALS
Towns: 67
Vucevic: 81

BLOCKS
Towns: 125
Vucevic: 89

...another set of skills to compare are creation, screening, and box outs...the making teammates better part of the equation:

ASSIST %
Towns: 16.9
Vucevic: 20.8

AST PTS CREATED / ADJUSTED ASSISTS
Towns: 628 / 305
Vucevic: 759 / 336

SCREEN ASSISTS
Towns: 185
Vucevic: 350

BOX OUTS/DEF BOX OUTS
Towns: 423 / 370
Vucevic: 719 / 662

Also, FYI blocks aren't an indicator of good defense
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Re: What's your breaking point (in $) for resigning Vucevic? 

Post#270 » by Xatticus » Tue Jun 11, 2019 8:34 pm

ezzzp wrote:
Xatticus wrote:They lost a lot? Minnesota lost 46 games. We lost 40. My statement was in reference to the fact that they finished 12 games adrift from the playoffs; not a statement to the quality of that team. If they were in the East, they would've been in the playoff race up until the final week of the season.

Minnesota's problem is that their "franchise player" (Wiggins - the guy with the worst contract in the NBA) does more damage to his team than any other player in the NBA. KAT is clearly their best player, but he was actually still on his rookie deal last season.

And when did Vucevic become a good defender? The guy has "anchored" more than his share of bad defenses. Vucevic is a lumbering big that camped in the paint in Clifford's scheme. He was easy to exploit in the pick-and-roll all season because he simply sagged into the paint. He can't switch. He can't hedge and recover. Toronto scorched our defense when he was on the floor in the playoffs because immobile bigs are very easy to exploit if you game plan for them.

Towns has higher career block and rebound rates. He could easily step into Vucevic's defensive role without doing significant damage to our defense because Clifford asks so little from Vucevic at that end. The difference between the two at the offensive end is vast. KAT is one of the best offensive players on the planet and we would be a better team right now if we had him on our roster in place of Vucevic.



6 games is a substantial amount in an 82 game context. 6 more wins makes Orlando a 48 win team...see how that spin works?

36-46 is an 11th seed in the East. Their SRS was -1.02 in the bottom third of the NBA (20th). The Magic's SRS was +0.28 ranked 14 in NBA. Simple Rating System accounts for strength of schedule and point differential.

Minnesota's problem is that they play an undisciplined stat padding style of basketball on both ends. Towns isn't exempt from that, he IS their franchise player. He had highest USG on the team (27.9) the next closest player was at considerably lower 23.9 USG...that was Wiggins. Towns got the vast amount of touches as well: 73.3 Touches per game...Wiggins isn't even remotely close with 48.0 touches.

AND on the defensive end of the equation, Vucevic and the Magic were the 8th ranked defense in the NBA, Towns and Wolves were the 24th ranked defense. Vucevic is a major factor for that difference:

Spoiler:
DEFENSIVE FG%

< 6ft
Towns: 55.7 DFG% / -6.9 impact on opponents FG%
Vucevic: 54.8 DFG% / -7.4 impact on opponents FG%
< 10ft
Towns: 51.4 DFG% / -6.0 impact on opponents FG%
Vucevic: 52.2 DFG% / -5.1 impact on opponents FG%
> 15ft
Towns: 40.9 DFG% / +4.8 impact on opponents FG%
Vucevic: 40.9 DFG% / +4.3 impact on opponents FG%
< 3PT
Towns: 40.2 DFG% / +5.4 impact on opponents FG%
Vucevic: 38.5 DFG% / +3.7 impact on opponents FG%

DEFENSIVE RPM / NBA RANK
Towns: 0.83 / 148TH
Vucevic: 3.59 / 8TH

DEFENSIVE REBOUNDING
Towns: 25.7 DREB%
Vucevic: 28.6 DREB%

DEFLECTIONS
Towns: 121
Vucevic: 127

STEALS
Towns: 67
Vucevic: 81

BLOCKS
Towns: 125
Vucevic: 89

...another set of skills to compare are creation, screening, and box outs...the making teammates better part of the equation:

ASSIST %
Towns: 16.9
Vucevic: 20.8

AST PTS CREATED / ADJUSTED ASSISTS
Towns: 628 / 305
Vucevic: 759 / 336

SCREEN ASSISTS
Towns: 185
Vucevic: 350

BOX OUTS/DEF BOX OUTS
Towns: 423 / 370
Vucevic: 719 / 662

Also, FYI blocks aren't an indicator of good defense


Firstly, I want to preemptively apologize for all of the xenophobia in this post.

No. Six games is rather meaningless.

Minnesota had a better record as recently as March 17. At that point, Orlando was one game behind Miami for the 8th seed, while Minnesota had already been effectively eliminated with 13 games left in the season.

Assuming conference win percentages hold, Orlando is a 38-win team with a Western Conference schedule.

I get it. Orlando won 42 games because of Vucevic. Minnesota lost 46 games because of Towns. Hooray for analytics!

But this is all a distraction from the debate at hand. The tried-and-true stuff doesn't work here, so the crux of your argument is that Vucevic was better than Towns because Orlando won more games? What does this sort of logic tell us about the D'Angelo Russell versus Nikola Vucevic debate?

As an aside, I don't know what your fascination is with touches.

points per touch:
Wiggins - .377
Towns - .333

Remember when you were trying to convince me how important that particular statistic is?

Minnesota was really banged up this year. The rest of the team (sans Towns) had a combined TS% of .536 (only the Knicks were worse). Wiggins and Okogie played the 2nd and 3rd most minutes for them this season and combined for a .493 TS%. And yet Minnesota finished T-11th in the league in offensive efficiency. This is because Towns is REALLY good.
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Re: What's your breaking point (in $) for resigning Vucevic? 

Post#271 » by MagicMatic » Tue Jun 11, 2019 9:46 pm

Xatticus wrote:
ezzzp wrote:
Xatticus wrote:They lost a lot? Minnesota lost 46 games. We lost 40. My statement was in reference to the fact that they finished 12 games adrift from the playoffs; not a statement to the quality of that team. If they were in the East, they would've been in the playoff race up until the final week of the season.

Minnesota's problem is that their "franchise player" (Wiggins - the guy with the worst contract in the NBA) does more damage to his team than any other player in the NBA. KAT is clearly their best player, but he was actually still on his rookie deal last season.

And when did Vucevic become a good defender? The guy has "anchored" more than his share of bad defenses. Vucevic is a lumbering big that camped in the paint in Clifford's scheme. He was easy to exploit in the pick-and-roll all season because he simply sagged into the paint. He can't switch. He can't hedge and recover. Toronto scorched our defense when he was on the floor in the playoffs because immobile bigs are very easy to exploit if you game plan for them.

Towns has higher career block and rebound rates. He could easily step into Vucevic's defensive role without doing significant damage to our defense because Clifford asks so little from Vucevic at that end. The difference between the two at the offensive end is vast. KAT is one of the best offensive players on the planet and we would be a better team right now if we had him on our roster in place of Vucevic.



6 games is a substantial amount in an 82 game context. 6 more wins makes Orlando a 48 win team...see how that spin works?

36-46 is an 11th seed in the East. Their SRS was -1.02 in the bottom third of the NBA (20th). The Magic's SRS was +0.28 ranked 14 in NBA. Simple Rating System accounts for strength of schedule and point differential.

Minnesota's problem is that they play an undisciplined stat padding style of basketball on both ends. Towns isn't exempt from that, he IS their franchise player. He had highest USG on the team (27.9) the next closest player was at considerably lower 23.9 USG...that was Wiggins. Towns got the vast amount of touches as well: 73.3 Touches per game...Wiggins isn't even remotely close with 48.0 touches.

AND on the defensive end of the equation, Vucevic and the Magic were the 8th ranked defense in the NBA, Towns and Wolves were the 24th ranked defense. Vucevic is a major factor for that difference:

Spoiler:
DEFENSIVE FG%

< 6ft
Towns: 55.7 DFG% / -6.9 impact on opponents FG%
Vucevic: 54.8 DFG% / -7.4 impact on opponents FG%
< 10ft
Towns: 51.4 DFG% / -6.0 impact on opponents FG%
Vucevic: 52.2 DFG% / -5.1 impact on opponents FG%
> 15ft
Towns: 40.9 DFG% / +4.8 impact on opponents FG%
Vucevic: 40.9 DFG% / +4.3 impact on opponents FG%
< 3PT
Towns: 40.2 DFG% / +5.4 impact on opponents FG%
Vucevic: 38.5 DFG% / +3.7 impact on opponents FG%

DEFENSIVE RPM / NBA RANK
Towns: 0.83 / 148TH
Vucevic: 3.59 / 8TH

DEFENSIVE REBOUNDING
Towns: 25.7 DREB%
Vucevic: 28.6 DREB%

DEFLECTIONS
Towns: 121
Vucevic: 127

STEALS
Towns: 67
Vucevic: 81

BLOCKS
Towns: 125
Vucevic: 89

...another set of skills to compare are creation, screening, and box outs...the making teammates better part of the equation:

ASSIST %
Towns: 16.9
Vucevic: 20.8

AST PTS CREATED / ADJUSTED ASSISTS
Towns: 628 / 305
Vucevic: 759 / 336

SCREEN ASSISTS
Towns: 185
Vucevic: 350

BOX OUTS/DEF BOX OUTS
Towns: 423 / 370
Vucevic: 719 / 662

Also, FYI blocks aren't an indicator of good defense


Firstly, I want to preemptively apologize for all of the xenophobia in this post.

No. Six games is rather meaningless.

Minnesota had a better record as recently as March 17. At that point, Orlando was one game behind Miami for the 8th seed, while Minnesota had already been effectively eliminated with 13 games left in the season.

Assuming conference win percentages hold, Orlando is a 38-win team with a Western Conference schedule.

I get it. Orlando won 42 games because of Vucevic. Minnesota lost 46 games because of Towns. Hooray for analytics!

But this is all a distraction from the debate at hand. The tried-and-true stuff doesn't work here, so the crux of your argument is that Vucevic was better than Towns because Orlando won more games? What does this sort of logic tell us about the D'Angelo Russell versus Nikola Vucevic debate?

As an aside, I don't know what your fascination is with touches.

points per touch:
Wiggins - .377
Towns - .333

Remember when you were trying to convince me how important that particular statistic is?

Minnesota was really banged up this year. The rest of the team (sans Towns) had a combined TS% of .536 (only the Knicks were worse). Wiggins and Okogie played the 2nd and 3rd most minutes for them this season and combined for a .493 TS%. And yet Minnesota finished T-11th in the league in offensive efficiency. This is because Towns is REALLY good.


Anyone outside of Orlando, that knows anything about the NBA, would tell you that Towns is the better player with a straight face and not think twice.

That being said, I doubt you can build a legitimate contender around either unless you have some other star players next to them.
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Re: What's your breaking point (in $) for resigning Vucevic? 

Post#272 » by ezzzp » Tue Jun 11, 2019 9:53 pm

Xatticus wrote: Firstly, I want to preemptively apologize for all of the xenophobia in this post.

No. Six games is rather meaningless.

Minnesota had a better record as recently as March 17. At that point, Orlando was one game behind Miami for the 8th seed, while Minnesota had already been effectively eliminated with 13 games left in the season.

Assuming conference win percentages hold, Orlando is a 38-win team with a Western Conference schedule.

I get it. Orlando won 42 games because of Vucevic. Minnesota lost 46 games because of Towns. Hooray for analytics!

But this is all a distraction from the debate at hand. The tried-and-true stuff doesn't work here, so the crux of your argument is that Vucevic was better than Towns because Orlando won more games? What does this sort of logic tell us about the D'Angelo Russell versus Nikola Vucevic debate?

As an aside, I don't know what your fascination is with touches.

points per touch:
Wiggins - .377
Towns - .333

Remember when you were trying to convince me how important that particular statistic is?

Minnesota was really banged up this year. The rest of the team (sans Towns) had a combined TS% of .536 (only the Knicks were worse). Wiggins and Okogie played the 2nd and 3rd most minutes for them this season and combined for a .493 TS%. And yet Minnesota finished T-11th in the league in offensive efficiency. This is because Towns is REALLY good.


A veiled personal attack isn't covering up that defense and making those around you better matters...Vucevic was superior at both than Towns and offensively he wasn't far behind.

Now, about this comment...

First, six games is absolutely meaningful. It was literally the difference between a 6/7th seed playoff team and one in the mid lottery.

Second, the season is 82 games, it DOES NOT end on March 17th. That use of that cherry picked date is absolutely hilarious. The Magic had a better record on November 26th...the Magic had better record on January 2nd...the Magic had better record on March 3d....see how that works? The record that matters is the record on April 10th.

Third. Touches gives insight as to how dominant or passive a player is on their specific team.

You used the wrong part of the touch stat to try to prove a point. You used Total PPT, instead of Front Court PPT. To establish what you think your are trying to say, you would use Front Court Touches for obvious reasons. That is unless you are trying to prove that Wiggins is better full court heaver than Towns :lol:.

Using the correct elements from that stat, its: Towns .544 PPT vs Wiggins .519 PPT.

Remember when you thought you were discrediting that stat, but it was really just that you were using it wrong?

...and now you are using injuries as excuse for Wolves? Funny how you didn't give Vucevic and the Magic that benefit last year...and they actually were ravaged by injuries to all their key players. Towns played 77 games and Wiggins played 73, their two top players were healthy.

Oh and about poor Towns not having any help...if you take away their scrub half of the roster that never played you get a totally different picture than what you are trying to sell. Their actual top 10 rotation had a .551 TS%. And that's not counting Covington (.580 TS%) who played 22 games before getting injured or Jimmy Butler (.579 TS%) who also played part of the season.

Spoiler:
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Re: What's your breaking point (in $) for resigning Vucevic? 

Post#273 » by ezzzp » Tue Jun 11, 2019 10:49 pm

MagicMatic wrote:
Anyone outside of Orlando, that knows anything about the NBA, would tell you that Towns is the better player with a straight face and not think twice.

That being said, I doubt you can build a legitimate contender around either unless you have some other star players next to them.



Offensively, Towns is slightly better right now. Defensively Vucevic is better + he is a much better creator and at doing a lot of things that make his teammates better.

Towns extension kicks in next year, he'll be making $27m.
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Re: What's your breaking point (in $) for resigning Vucevic? 

Post#274 » by MagicMatic » Tue Jun 11, 2019 11:25 pm

ezzzp wrote:
MagicMatic wrote:
Anyone outside of Orlando, that knows anything about the NBA, would tell you that Towns is the better player with a straight face and not think twice.

That being said, I doubt you can build a legitimate contender around either unless you have some other star players next to them.



Offensively, Towns is slightly better right now. Defensively Vucevic is better + he is a much better creator and at doing a lot of things that make his teammates better.

Towns extension kicks in next year, he'll be making $27m.


Thats debatable and a pretty blanketed statement. Comparing two offensive oriented Centers, that are both in ineffective systems, is a pointless case. Towns is younger, more valuable, and was an allstar in his third season in the league. Jokic and Embiid were the only centers on the list that were playing legitimate playoff basketball.
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Re: What's your breaking point (in $) for resigning Vucevic? 

Post#275 » by ezzzp » Wed Jun 12, 2019 12:30 am

MagicMatic wrote:
ezzzp wrote:
MagicMatic wrote:
Anyone outside of Orlando, that knows anything about the NBA, would tell you that Towns is the better player with a straight face and not think twice.

That being said, I doubt you can build a legitimate contender around either unless you have some other star players next to them.



Offensively, Towns is slightly better right now. Defensively Vucevic is better + he is a much better creator and at doing a lot of things that make his teammates better.

Towns extension kicks in next year, he'll be making $27m.


Thats debatable and a pretty blanketed statement. Comparing two offensive oriented Centers, that are both in ineffective systems, is a pointless case. Towns is younger, more valuable, and was an allstar in his third season in the league.


Actually the stats and overall team performance indicate that Vucevic was better defender, defensive rebounder + also was superior in the categories that make his team mates better:

Spoiler:
Vucevic and the Magic were the 8th ranked defense in the NBA, Towns and Wolves were the 24th ranked defense.

DEFENSIVE FG%

< 6ft
Towns: 55.7 DFG% / -6.9 impact on opponents FG%
Vucevic: 54.8 DFG% / -7.4 impact on opponents FG%
< 10ft
Towns: 51.4 DFG% / -6.0 impact on opponents FG%
Vucevic: 52.2 DFG% / -5.1 impact on opponents FG%
> 15ft
Towns: 40.9 DFG% / +4.8 impact on opponents FG%
Vucevic: 40.9 DFG% / +4.3 impact on opponents FG%
< 3PT
Towns: 40.2 DFG% / +5.4 impact on opponents FG%
Vucevic: 38.5 DFG% / +3.7 impact on opponents FG%

DEFENSIVE RPM / NBA RANK
Towns: 0.83 / 148TH
Vucevic: 3.59 / 8TH

DEFENSIVE REBOUNDING
Towns: 25.7 DREB%
Vucevic: 28.6 DREB%

DEFLECTIONS
Towns: 121
Vucevic: 127

STEALS
Towns: 67
Vucevic: 81

BLOCKS
Towns: 125
Vucevic: 89

...another set of skills to compare are creation, screening, and box outs...the making teammates better part of the equation:

ASSIST %
Towns: 16.9
Vucevic: 20.8

AST PTS CREATED / ADJUSTED ASSISTS
Towns: 628 / 305
Vucevic: 759 / 336

SCREEN ASSISTS
Towns: 185
Vucevic: 350

BOX OUTS/DEF BOX OUTS
Towns: 423 / 370
Vucevic: 719 / 662


Offensively, where Towns really separates himself is in his 3pt shooting and free throws, its the biggest differences in their scoring.

PULL UP 3PT
Towns: 100 / 31.1 3P%
Vucevic: 2 / 0.0 FG%

CATCH and SHOOT 3PT
Towns: 309 / 41.1 3P%
Vucevic: 218 / 36.2 3P%

FREE THROWS
Towns: 5.9 / 83.6 FT%
Vucevic: 2.8 / 78.9 FT%

The rest is fairly similar:

DRIVES
Towns: 3.6 pg / 54.5 FG% / 5.7 AST%
Vucevic: 2.3 pg / 54.3 FG% / 6.1 AST%

POST UP
Towns: 12.9 pg / 52.1 FG% / 8.4 AST%
Vucevic: 9.2 pg / 48.1 FG% / 9.5 AST%

ISOLATION
Towns: 1.9 pg / 0.88 PPP / 42.2 eFG%
Vucevic: 0.4 pg / 1.18 PPP / 55.2 eFG%

ROLL MAN
Towns: 3.2 pg / 1.19 PPP / 62.3 eFG%
Vucevic: 4.1 / 1.13 PPP / 58.5 eFG%

Making a statement that neither can translate to a contender roster is a tremendously flawed opinion. You don't know how their skill sets would translate with other roster compositions. Nobody does until it happens.
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Re: What's your breaking point (in $) for resigning Vucevic? 

Post#276 » by PrimeThyme » Wed Jun 12, 2019 1:25 am

Ask any GM or fanbase who is the better player, Vuc or Towns and I think you will pretty much unanimously get the same answer. It's Towns.
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Re: What's your breaking point (in $) for resigning Vucevic? 

Post#277 » by SOUL » Wed Jun 12, 2019 1:50 am

Vucevic had a very comparable year this year, but this was obviously far and away his best year. KAT's 2nd year in the league was better than Vuc this year, when he was 21, and I think he still has a lot of room to grow as a player since he's 5 years younger than Vuc. It's a no brainer that KAT is still a better player, but yeah, Vuc can obviously hold his own against him.
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Re: What's your breaking point (in $) for resigning Vucevic? 

Post#278 » by ezzzp » Wed Jun 12, 2019 3:55 am

• In Town's 4 seasons, MIN's defense has ranked: 28th, 27th, 27th, and 24th

• In Vucevic's 7 seasons, ORL's defense has ranked: 25th, 24th, 17th, 16th, 22nd, 18th, and 8th

KAT has yet to prove that he can anchor anything remotely close to a halfway decent defense...and that has been with Tom Thibeadau one of best defensive coaches in NBA through most of his time there.

Vucevic will never be a great defender, but even in his limited ability he has been solid enough to be at the core of a top 8 defense and three mid tier defenses.

To me, that has to be added into the equation.

Towns is a better scorer, but the primary difference is that he's a way better 3PT shooter and gets to the FT line more. If Vucevic's 3PT shooting continues to trend up, we could see another significant jump in both his PPG and his TS%.

Starting next year KAT starts his max 5 year extension (starting at $27.3m). My hopes are that the Magic can get Vucevic on a <$23m deal.
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Re: What's your breaking point (in $) for resigning Vucevic? 

Post#279 » by MagicMatic » Wed Jun 12, 2019 4:49 am

ezzzp wrote:• In Town's 4 seasons, MIN's defense has ranked: 28th, 27th, 27th, and 24th

• In Vucevic's 7 seasons, ORL's defense has ranked: 25th, 24th, 17th, 16th, 22nd, 18th, and 8th

KAT has yet to prove that he can anchor anything remotely close to a halfway decent defense...and that has been with Tom Thibeadau one of best defensive coaches in NBA through most of his time there.

Vucevic will never be a great defender, but even in his limited ability he has been solid enough to be at the core of a top 8 defense and three mid tier defenses.

To me, that has to be added into the equation.

Towns is a better scorer, but the primary difference is that he's a way better 3PT shooter and gets to the FT line more. If Vucevic's 3PT shooting continues to trend up, we could see another significant jump in both his PPG and his TS%.

Starting next year KAT starts his max 5 year extension (starting at $27.3m). My hopes are that the Magic can get Vucevic on a <$23m deal.


What is your purpose for this comparison? KAT will always be more valuable because of his potential for where he is now in his career. However, neither players are remotely attractive as primary options, unless they are surrounded by extremely solid talent, for the reasons you mentioned.

AD, Embiid, and Jokic all make about $25m give or take 1m. So, you are saying Vuc is deserving of slightly less money and KAT will get more than those players listed because of the market. Gobert makes $23m for reference. Again, none of these players have done anything significant in the postseason without having a system and team built around highlighting their abilities. Do you believe Vuc will ever be surrounded by a team that compliments his game if he resigns? Doubtful IMO, same as KAT.
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Re: What's your breaking point (in $) for resigning Vucevic? 

Post#280 » by pepe1991 » Wed Jun 12, 2019 7:31 am

For longest time i belive that PF is easly the worst position to have star player. It's simply unimpacful position for years.

Davis, Griffin, Garnett, Towns, Malone, Barkley, Webber, Kemp... they all have same thing in common- they never won jack ***t as stand alone stars. Now ofc there are Duncan, Pau, McHale and Dirk actually did won, but Duncan played more C than PF in his career, McHale's post skills rank him among all time greats (AND he played with Bird ), and Dirk was unorthodox player, jumpshooter before it was cool. Pau also played C more than PF.

Problem with PF position and star there is how to use them. They can't take ball and simply take over, you need second player to be close to their level to get them ball in right place in first place, also their built is also problematic in most cases. They are not great ballhandlers to beat you off dribble, most of them are not really elite passers ( or shooters) so they get easly trapped, if you ship them at C, guys like Davis and KAT simply don't have strenght and muscles ( and size) to play full time C. Davis is always hurt. In 7 years he menaged to play 70 games twice.

So , in order to win with your superstar PF, your ballhandler needs to be as elite as him, and you also need one 3 and D elite wing to pair him with, and one solid C, witch defeats whole purpose of superstar , if you are forced to have 3 specific other stars around him.

Giannis and Durant make that position even less relevant, as they play with ball and can just as easly play "small wing", hell Durant can play PG,SG,SF and PF if he wants to, Giannis is stronger than some Cs.
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