What's your breaking point (in $) for resigning Vucevic?

[Xatticus]

A veiled personal attack isn't covering up that defense and making those around you better matters...Vucevic was superior at both than Towns and offensively he wasn't far behind.

As I said... preemptive. You start arguments and then play victim after a few posts. It's your modus operandi. How do you accuse someone of being xenophobic when they have no idea where you are from? Think about it.

Now, about this comment...

First, six games is absolutely meaningful. It was literally the difference between a 6/7th seed playoff team and one in the mid lottery.

Second, the season is 82 games, it DOES NOT end on March 17th. That use of that cherry picked date is absolutely hilarious. The Magic had a better record on November 26th...the Magic had better record on January 2nd...the Magic had better record on March 3d....see how that works? The record that matters is the record on April 10th.

There was nothing arbitrary about the date selected. It was the last day of the season that Minnesota had a better record than Orlando and it came 85% of the way through the season. The Western Conference playoff teams had long-since been decided and Minnesota's season was effectively over. Meanwhile, Orlando was pulling out every stop to try to dig, scrape, and claw for extra wins against diminished competition. Knightro, quite accurately, predicted how Orlando's season would play out after Clifford was hired.

Third. Touches gives insight as to how dominant or passive a player is on their specific team.

You used the wrong part of the touch stat to try to prove a point. You used Total PPT, instead of Front Court PPT. To establish what you think your are trying to say, you would use Front Court Touches for obvious reasons. That is unless you are trying to prove that Wiggins is better full court heaver than Towns .

Using the correct elements from that stat, its: Towns .544 PPT vs Wiggins .519 PPT.

Remember when you thought you were discrediting that stat, but it was really just that you were using it wrong?

Wrong. Touches are a counting stat and nothing more. They simply tell you how many distinct times a player had the ball in his possession. This includes rebounds and outlets. Beyond this, touches are dictated by the offensive scheme.

Points per touch has nothing to do with full court heaves. Vucevic and Towns both had .000 points per heave as each player attempted and missed only one over the entire season.

I wasn't trying to establish anything. I was demonstrating how absurd the statistic is. It was used precisely as you used it when you were trying to use it to prove that Fournier is better than Gordon and posted this gem:

• Points Per Touch

Gordon: (18-19) .297 PPT / (17-18) .294 PPT / (16-17) .329 PPT / (15-16) .243 PPT / (14-15) .231 PPT
Fournier: (18-19) .348 PPT / (17-18) .426 PPT / (16-17) .367 PPT / (15-16) .317 PPT / (14-15) .317 PPT

Nobody cares about touches because everything can be more neatly and accurately measured relative to possessions or field goal attempts. We can measure shooting volume with field goal attempts per 36 minutes and we can measure efficiency with TS%.

Points per touch is akin to dribbles per rebound. It's not that it says nothing. It just doesn't say anything meaningful. It tells you less than its constituent components. It doesn't tell you how often someone shoots or how efficiently they shoot.

...and now you are using injuries as excuse for Wolves? Funny how you didn't give Vucevic and the Magic that benefit last year...and they actually were ravaged by injuries to all their key players. Towns played 77 games and Wiggins played 73, their two top players were healthy.

Oh and about poor Towns not having any help...if you take away their scrub half of the roster that never played you get a totally different picture than what you are trying to sell. Their actual top 10 rotation had a .551 TS%. And that's not counting Covington (.580 TS%) who played 22 games before getting injured or Jimmy Butler (.579 TS%) who also played part of the season.

Spoiler:

I didn't mention Orlando's injuries last year for the same reason that I didn't mention that Minnesota won 47 games last year or that Orlando won only 25... because nobody was talking about last year.

I don't know why you posted the TS% of those players when the team had a .552 TS%. Again though, it was buoyed by Towns' .622 TS%. Everyone else combined for a .536 TS%. For comparison's sake, Vucevic's supporting cast combined for a .545 TS%. Vucevic elevated the team average TS% to .550.

This is all really absurd though. Vucevic had a fine season; easily the best of his career. He's just not as good as Towns. That's why Towns received 5x as many All-NBA votes. It's not the product of some bias towards the basketball Mecca that is Minnesota.

[Xatticus]

For longest time i belive that PF is easly the worst position to have star player. It's simply unimpacful position for years.

Davis, Griffin, Garnett, Towns, Malone, Barkley, Webber, Kemp... they all have same thing in common- they never won jack ***t as stand alone stars. Now ofc there are Duncan, Pau, McHale and Dirk actually did won, but Duncan played more C than PF in his career, McHale's post skills rank him among all time greats (AND he played with Bird ), and Dirk was unorthodox player, jumpshooter before it was cool. Pau also played C more than PF.

Problem with PF position and star there is how to use them. They can't take ball and simply take over, you need second player to be close to their level to get them ball in right place in first place, also their built is also problematic in most cases. They are not great ballhandlers to beat you off dribble, most of them are not really elite passers ( or shooters) so they get easly trapped, if you ship them at C, guys like Davis and KAT simply don't have strenght and muscles ( and size) to play full time C. Davis is always hurt. In 7 years he menaged to play 70 games twice.

So , in order to win with your superstar PF, your ballhandler needs to be as elite as him, and you also need one 3 and D elite wing to pair him with, and one solid C, witch defeats whole purpose of superstar , if you are forced to have 3 specific other stars around him.

Giannis and Durant make that position even less relevant, as they play with ball and can just as easly play "small wing", hell Durant can play PG,SG,SF and PF if he wants to, Giannis is stronger than some Cs.

Who has won as a standalone star though? Jordan had Pippen. Bird had McHale. Magic had stacked teams. Kobe had Shaq and then Pau. LeBron had Wade and then Kyrie.

Malone, Barkley, and Kemp all would have won titles if not for Jordan, though each of them were on stacked teams. Webber got screwed out of his shot by officiating.

I just don't think you can expect any one player to carry a team to the title. I think the 2010/11 Mavs and the 1993/94 Rockets are the closest examples I can think of in my lifetime.

Besides, you are what you defend, and both Giannis and Durant defend fours in small lineups. Golden State has used small lineups extensively in their run of dominance.

I think ideally you want someone that is capable of both forcing double teams and initiating the pick-and-roll. This gives you a really dynamic offense. It also really benefits you when you get great defense from your star, which largely precludes point guards.

All of that said, I'm not picky. If we can develop or acquire one of those elite talents, I won't really care what position they play.

[basketballRob]

If we don't resign him I might go watch some games this year. I just don't like the style of play running the offense through Vuc and I don't think winning is his number 1 priority.

Sent from my SM-G965U using RealGM mobile app

[ezzzp]

• In Town's 4 seasons, MIN's defense has ranked: 28th, 27th, 27th, and 24th

• In Vucevic's 7 seasons, ORL's defense has ranked: 25th, 24th, 17th, 16th, 22nd, 18th, and 8th

KAT has yet to prove that he can anchor anything remotely close to a halfway decent defense...and that has been with Tom Thibeadau one of best defensive coaches in NBA through most of his time there.

Vucevic will never be a great defender, but even in his limited ability he has been solid enough to be at the core of a top 8 defense and three mid tier defenses.

To me, that has to be added into the equation.

Towns is a better scorer, but the primary difference is that he's a way better 3PT shooter and gets to the FT line more. If Vucevic's 3PT shooting continues to trend up, we could see another significant jump in both his PPG and his TS%.

Starting next year KAT starts his max 5 year extension (starting at $27.3m). My hopes are that the Magic can get Vucevic on a <$23m deal.

What is your purpose for this comparison? KAT will always be more valuable because of his potential for where he is now in his career. However, neither players are remotely attractive as primary options, unless they are surrounded by extremely solid talent, for the reasons you mentioned.

AD, Embiid, and Jokic all make about $25m give or take 1m. So, you are saying Vuc is deserving of slightly less money and KAT will get more than those players listed because of the market. Gobert makes $23m for reference. Again, none of these players have done anything significant in the postseason without having a system and team built around highlighting their abilities. Do you believe Vuc will ever be surrounded by a team that compliments his game if he resigns? Doubtful IMO, same as KAT.

Do you mean why am I showing stats and evidence that disprove your claim that Towns is so much superior than Vucevic that it can't even be questioned? Defense matters; as does having the capacity to make teammates better. The goal is winning basketball, not who can put up most PPG and have most followers on social media.

Saying KAT will "always" be more valuable is a MASSIVE assumption. Health is always a factor in sports, and the glossy shine of high draft picks starts to fade real fast once their price tag jumps. For KAT, that's next season. If that team misses playoffs again and have yet another bottom feeder defense...then the same criticism of one-way franchise players that don't make their team better will begin. KAT could easily go from shiny new toy to overpaid one-way player that you can't build a decent defense around. Meanwhile, this summer's supply/demand situation for C's could easily create a scenario were Vucevic signs a very good contract for the Magic...making him a better value than KAT.

You are looking at those max contracts all wrong. All those players got 25% of cap contracts, this summer that would be a $27.3m contract. In the past decade or so, the average salary for starters has been between 16%-17% of cap. That would be around $18m this upcoming season. Vucevic's production through his prime plateaux should remain at least slightly above the average starter. A 20% of cap contract this summer is going to be around $22m.

Why would Vucevic and KAT not ever be able to be surrounded by a team that complements them? You keep making these absolute statements as if there is only one template. Go look at history and you will see that there NEVER is. Trends come and go fast, they get pushed out by the next one. Look at the NBA now compared to 2 years ago...Capella was "ideal" C, now teams want a big to be more skilled with ability to create and capacity to shoot 3's...that could flip on a dime just like every NBA trend has.

[BadMofoPimp]

For longest time i belive that PF is easly the worst position to have star player. It's simply unimpacful position for years.

Davis, Griffin, Garnett, Towns, Malone, Barkley, Webber, Kemp... they all have same thing in common- they never won jack ***t as stand alone stars. Now ofc there are Duncan, Pau, McHale and Dirk actually did won, but Duncan played more C than PF in his career, McHale's post skills rank him among all time greats (AND he played with Bird ), and Dirk was unorthodox player, jumpshooter before it was cool. Pau also played C more than PF.

Problem with PF position and star there is how to use them. They can't take ball and simply take over, you need second player to be close to their level to get them ball in right place in first place, also their built is also problematic in most cases. They are not great ballhandlers to beat you off dribble, most of them are not really elite passers ( or shooters) so they get easly trapped, if you ship them at C, guys like Davis and KAT simply don't have strenght and muscles ( and size) to play full time C. Davis is always hurt. In 7 years he menaged to play 70 games twice.

So , in order to win with your superstar PF, your ballhandler needs to be as elite as him, and you also need one 3 and D elite wing to pair him with, and one solid C, witch defeats whole purpose of superstar , if you are forced to have 3 specific other stars around him.

Giannis and Durant make that position even less relevant, as they play with ball and can just as easly play "small wing", hell Durant can play PG,SG,SF and PF if he wants to, Giannis is stronger than some Cs.

Who has won as a standalone star though? Jordan had Pippen. Bird had McHale. Magic had stacked teams. Kobe had Shaq and then Pau. LeBron had Wade and then Kyrie.

Malone, Barkley, and Kemp all would have won titles if not for Jordan, though each of them were on stacked teams. Webber got screwed out of his shot by officiating.

I just don't think you can expect any one player to carry a team to the title. I think the 2010/11 Mavs and the 1993/94 Rockets are the closest examples I can think of in my lifetime.

Besides, you are what you defend, and both Giannis and Durant defend fours in small lineups. Golden State has used small lineups extensively in their run of dominance.

I think ideally you want someone that is capable of both forcing double teams and initiating the pick-and-roll. This gives you a really dynamic offense. It also really benefits you when you get great defense from your star, which largely precludes point guards.

All of that said, I'm not picky. If we can develop or acquire one of those elite talents, I won't really care what position they play.

Plenty of teams won Ships with only 1 superstar aka Spurs, Mavs, Pistons and hopefully Raptors this year.

[ezzzp]

As I said... preemptive. You start arguments and then play victim after a few posts. It's your modus operandi. How do you accuse someone of being xenophobic when they have no idea where you are from? Think about it.

Let me preemptively apologize if you are incorrectly perceiving that right now I'm thinking you are a pompous blowhard with a low bbIQ. I don't even know you, so how could I possibly arrive at that. Think about it.

There was nothing arbitrary about the date selected. It was the last day of the season that Minnesota had a better record than Orlando and it came 85% of the way through the season. The Western Conference playoff teams had long-since been decided and Minnesota's season was effectively over. Meanwhile, Orlando was pulling out every stop to try to dig, scrape, and claw for extra wins against diminished competition. Knightro, quite accurately, predicted how Orlando's season would play out after Clifford was hired.

Oh its absolutely arbitrary. You cherry picked it to manipulate the data to imply that up until March 17th Minnesota had been a better team with the better record. That is absolutely wrong. As I showed before, the Magic had better record at different parts of the season...LMAO the Magic literally had a better record 6 games before your ridiculously arbitrary date - that was at 80% of the way through the season.

AND the record that matters is the record on April 10th...when 100% of the season is complete.

Wrong. Touches are a counting stat and nothing more. They simply tell you how many distinct times a player had the ball in his possession. This includes rebounds and outlets. Beyond this, touches are dictated by the offensive scheme.

Wrong. Touches gives insight as to how dominant or passive a player is within their specific team scheme. Schemes dictate how dominant or passive a player is on a team. The two are interwoven so looking at effectiveness within that role has value.

Points per touch has nothing to do with full court heaves. Vucevic and Towns both had .000 points per heave as each player attempted and missed only one over the entire season.

That was obviously a joke, showing you that the portion of the stat that was relevant was the front court touches.

I wasn't trying to establish anything. I was demonstrating how absurd the statistic is.

Oh yea you were...you just used it wrong. Front court PPT absolutely matters...its an efficiency number that reveals how that player is used and how effective within role given.

Nobody cares about touches because everything can be more neatly and accurately measured relative to possessions or field goal attempts. We can measure shooting volume with field goal attempts per 36 minutes and we can measure efficiency with TS%. Points per touch is akin to dribbles per rebound. It's not that it says nothing. It just doesn't say anything meaningful. It tells you less than its constituent components. It doesn't tell you how often someone shoots or how efficiently they shoot.

Wrong again. In fact I learned about the stat because Dean Oliver and the Nylon Calculus guys often use it. Oliver is a pioneer in sports analytics and NC are some of most respected stat guys in industry.

FYI, per36 FGA and TS% only isolate shooting and volume. USG which you didn't mention helps show play ending volume. Touches reveals how a player is used within the system, in particular how much of the ball handling and ball movement they are entrusted with. When you mix in PPT, it reveals what level of scoring effectiveness they are within that context.

I didn't mention Orlando's injuries last year for the same reason that I didn't mention that Minnesota won 47 games last year or that Orlando won only 25... because nobody was talking about last year.

You didn't mention it for the same reason that you just now didn't mention that Jimmy Butler was on that 47 win Minnesota team, and that the year before his arrival they were a 31 win team and now free fell right back after his departure.

I don't know why you posted the TS% of those players when the team had a .552 TS%. Again though, it was buoyed by Towns' .622 TS%. Everyone else combined for a .536 TS%. For comparison's sake, Vucevic's supporting cast combined for a .545 TS%. Vucevic elevated the team average TS% to .550.

I posted it to show Towns has players around him, unlike the spin that he's there alone with Josh Okogie. On top of that he has players who have offensive gravity and can score at volume, Rose and Wiggins. TS% matters, but so does volume and ability to manufacture buckets.

This is all really absurd though. Vucevic had a fine season; easily the best of his career. He's just not as good as Towns. That's why Towns received 5x as many All-NBA votes. It's not the product of some bias towards the basketball Mecca that is Minnesota.

...and Towns also received 5x as many votes as Donavon Mitchell, Ben Simmons, Demar DeRozan, Myles Turner, D'Angelo Russell etc etc etc...key players on playoff squads and decent quality defenses. So what if he received more votes from mainstream national media.

That doesn't negate that he's only been anchor to bottom feeder defenses...meanwhile Vucevic has been part of a top 8 defense + 3 mid tier defenses.

My argument has been based around establishing what the level of difference is between the two, to help discuss and establish a contract value for Vucevic. You know, the subject being discussed in a thread titled: What's your breaking point (in $) for resigning Vucevic

[MoMM]

For longest time i belive that PF is easly the worst position to have star player. It's simply unimpacful position for years.

Davis, Griffin, Garnett, Towns, Malone, Barkley, Webber, Kemp... they all have same thing in common- they never won jack ***t as stand alone stars. Now ofc there are Duncan, Pau, McHale and Dirk actually did won, but Duncan played more C than PF in his career, McHale's post skills rank him among all time greats (AND he played with Bird ), and Dirk was unorthodox player, jumpshooter before it was cool. Pau also played C more than PF.

Problem with PF position and star there is how to use them. They can't take ball and simply take over, you need second player to be close to their level to get them ball in right place in first place, also their built is also problematic in most cases. They are not great ballhandlers to beat you off dribble, most of them are not really elite passers ( or shooters) so they get easly trapped, if you ship them at C, guys like Davis and KAT simply don't have strenght and muscles ( and size) to play full time C. Davis is always hurt. In 7 years he menaged to play 70 games twice.

So , in order to win with your superstar PF, your ballhandler needs to be as elite as him, and you also need one 3 and D elite wing to pair him with, and one solid C, witch defeats whole purpose of superstar , if you are forced to have 3 specific other stars around him.

Giannis and Durant make that position even less relevant, as they play with ball and can just as easly play "small wing", hell Durant can play PG,SG,SF and PF if he wants to, Giannis is stronger than some Cs.

Who has won as a standalone star though? Jordan had Pippen. Bird had McHale. Magic had stacked teams. Kobe had Shaq and then Pau. LeBron had Wade and then Kyrie.

Malone, Barkley, and Kemp all would have won titles if not for Jordan, though each of them were on stacked teams. Webber got screwed out of his shot by officiating.

I just don't think you can expect any one player to carry a team to the title. I think the 2010/11 Mavs and the 1993/94 Rockets are the closest examples I can think of in my lifetime.

Besides, you are what you defend, and both Giannis and Durant defend fours in small lineups. Golden State has used small lineups extensively in their run of dominance.

I think ideally you want someone that is capable of both forcing double teams and initiating the pick-and-roll. This gives you a really dynamic offense. It also really benefits you when you get great defense from your star, which largely precludes point guards.

All of that said, I'm not picky. If we can develop or acquire one of those elite talents, I won't really care what position they play.

Plenty of teams won Ships with only 1 superstar aka Spurs, Mavs, Pistons and hopefully Raptors this year.

I agree about Mavs and Pistons, but let's check Spurs championships:
1st one: They had Duncan and David Robinson;
2nd: Duncan and their all-around team;
3rd: Duncan + Parker averaging 20+ in Playoffs;
4th: Duncan + Manu averaging 20+ in the Playoffs;
5th: Duncan, their core and Leonard as Finals MVP.

Except 2nd title, all of the other rosters had a 2nd star that wasn't a superstar because Spurs has a different bball culture. Manu and Parker could have been superstars in other teams if they had that desire, IMO.

[BadMofoPimp]

Who has won as a standalone star though? Jordan had Pippen. Bird had McHale. Magic had stacked teams. Kobe had Shaq and then Pau. LeBron had Wade and then Kyrie.

Malone, Barkley, and Kemp all would have won titles if not for Jordan, though each of them were on stacked teams. Webber got screwed out of his shot by officiating.

I just don't think you can expect any one player to carry a team to the title. I think the 2010/11 Mavs and the 1993/94 Rockets are the closest examples I can think of in my lifetime.

Besides, you are what you defend, and both Giannis and Durant defend fours in small lineups. Golden State has used small lineups extensively in their run of dominance.

I think ideally you want someone that is capable of both forcing double teams and initiating the pick-and-roll. This gives you a really dynamic offense. It also really benefits you when you get great defense from your star, which largely precludes point guards.

All of that said, I'm not picky. If we can develop or acquire one of those elite talents, I won't really care what position they play.

Plenty of teams won Ships with only 1 superstar aka Spurs, Mavs, Pistons and hopefully Raptors this year.

I agree about Mavs and Pistons, but let's check Spurs championships:
1st one: They had Duncan and David Robinson;
2nd: Duncan and their all-around team;
3rd: Duncan + Parker averaging 20+ in Playoffs;
4th: Duncan + Manu averaging 20+ in the Playoffs;
5th: Duncan, their core and Leonard as Finals MVP.

Except 2nd title, all of the other rosters had a 2nd star that wasn't a superstar because Spurs has a different bball culture. Manu and Parker could have been superstars in other teams if they had that desire, IMO.

Duncan was the only superstar on those teams. I am not entirely sure Manu and Parker would have been as good without Duncan or Popovich as well. Those guys were very good, but Spurs players tend to not do so well on other teams.

[MoMM]

Plenty of teams won Ships with only 1 superstar aka Spurs, Mavs, Pistons and hopefully Raptors this year.

I agree about Mavs and Pistons, but let's check Spurs championships:
1st one: They had Duncan and David Robinson;
2nd: Duncan and their all-around team;
3rd: Duncan + Parker averaging 20+ in Playoffs;
4th: Duncan + Manu averaging 20+ in the Playoffs;
5th: Duncan, their core and Leonard as Finals MVP.

Except 2nd title, all of the other rosters had a 2nd star that wasn't a superstar because Spurs has a different bball culture. Manu and Parker could have been superstars in other teams if they had that desire, IMO.

Duncan was the only superstar on those teams. I am not entirely sure Manu and Parker would have been as good without Duncan or Popovich as well. Those guys were very good, but Spurs players tend to not do so well on other teams.

Perhaps Parker wouldn't, but Manu would be a superstar and it's a Brazilian saying that. Just check all of his accomplishments when playing for Argentina and in Europe. Guy is amazing.

Also, I forgot to say that maybe their 2nd (or 3rd) superstar wasn't playing, he was at bench in all of their titles (Popovich).

[MagicMatic]

• In Town's 4 seasons, MIN's defense has ranked: 28th, 27th, 27th, and 24th

• In Vucevic's 7 seasons, ORL's defense has ranked: 25th, 24th, 17th, 16th, 22nd, 18th, and 8th

KAT has yet to prove that he can anchor anything remotely close to a halfway decent defense...and that has been with Tom Thibeadau one of best defensive coaches in NBA through most of his time there.

Vucevic will never be a great defender, but even in his limited ability he has been solid enough to be at the core of a top 8 defense and three mid tier defenses.

To me, that has to be added into the equation.

Towns is a better scorer, but the primary difference is that he's a way better 3PT shooter and gets to the FT line more. If Vucevic's 3PT shooting continues to trend up, we could see another significant jump in both his PPG and his TS%.

Starting next year KAT starts his max 5 year extension (starting at $27.3m). My hopes are that the Magic can get Vucevic on a <$23m deal.

What is your purpose for this comparison? KAT will always be more valuable because of his potential for where he is now in his career. However, neither players are remotely attractive as primary options, unless they are surrounded by extremely solid talent, for the reasons you mentioned.

AD, Embiid, and Jokic all make about $25m give or take 1m. So, you are saying Vuc is deserving of slightly less money and KAT will get more than those players listed because of the market. Gobert makes $23m for reference. Again, none of these players have done anything significant in the postseason without having a system and team built around highlighting their abilities. Do you believe Vuc will ever be surrounded by a team that compliments his game if he resigns? Doubtful IMO, same as KAT.

Do you mean why am I showing stats and evidence that disprove your claim that Towns is so much superior than Vucevic that it can't even be questioned? Defense matters; as does having the capacity to make teammates better. The goal is winning basketball, not who can put up most PPG and have most followers on social media.

Saying KAT will "always" be more valuable is a MASSIVE assumption. Health is always a factor in sports, and the glossy shine of high draft picks starts to fade real fast once their price tag jumps. For KAT, that's next season. If that team misses playoffs again and have yet another bottom feeder defense...then the same criticism of one-way franchise players that don't make their team better will begin. KAT could easily go from shiny new toy to overpaid one-way player that you can't build a decent defense around. Meanwhile, this summer's supply/demand situation for C's could easily create a scenario were Vucevic signs a very good contract for the Magic...making him a better value than KAT.

You are looking at those max contracts all wrong. All those players got 25% of cap contracts, this summer that would be a $27.3m contract. In the past decade or so, the average salary for starters has been between 16%-17% of cap. That would be around $18m this upcoming season. Vucevic's production through his prime plateaux should remain at least slightly above the average starter. A 20% of cap contract this summer is going to be around $22m.

Why would Vucevic and KAT not ever be able to be surrounded by a team that complements them? You keep making these absolute statements as if there is only one template. Go look at history and you will see that there NEVER is. Trends come and go fast, they get pushed out by the next one. Look at the NBA now compared to 2 years ago...Capella was "ideal" C, now teams want a big to be more skilled with ability to create and capacity to shoot 3's...that could flip on a dime just like every NBA trend has.

Lol what? I never said that Towns was better defensively than Vuc. If Vucevic was putting up the numbers Towns was in year 2 or 3, and stretching the floor at a similar level, the case for Vucevic would be similar offensively. So now you are insinuating that Towns is only perceived as such because of his social media following and ppg. What a hot take. Saying that Vuc is impacting the game so much defensively compared to Towns is such an overblown statement. He’s definitely better, but you aren’t looking at either situation in context at all making such claims.

KAT will always have more value than Vuc considering he’s younger, has more potential, and was heralded coming out of college. If we are talking about “value” from a team perspective that is going to change based on roster and situation. You don’t need to add the caveat that injury plays a role. Thanks captain obvious.

If we are really getting into what is required and ideal of Centers for playoff basketball Al Horford is the prototype. Multi positional defender, stretches the floor, facilitates, great pick and roll operator, etc. You can put many variations of roster configurations around a player like that without being extremely limited on either end of the floor. The same can’t be said of KAT and Vuc regardless of this pointless debate.

Contracts matter. Handing over a large % of cap space to players that need specific systems or rosters to facilitate their capabilities isn’t ideal. Not only that, but you are going to have a limited window to operate from if you shell out those kinds of deals without the requisite roster composition.

It’s not about what is considered “ideal” positionally. It’s considered what is ideal within the context of a roster. I’m not saying they “will never” as much as I’m saying that given their current situations a lot has to change for them to be as effective on playoff caliber rosters, especially when you end up paying them relative to other elite bigs.

[ezzzp]

Lol what? I never said that Towns was better defensively than Vuc. If Vucevic was putting up the numbers Towns was in year 2 or 3, and stretching the floor at a similar level, the case for Vucevic would be similar offensively. So now you are insinuating that Towns is only perceived as such because of his social media following and ppg. What a hot take. Saying that Vuc is impacting the game so much defensively compared to Towns is such an overblown statement. He’s definitely better, but you aren’t looking at either situation in context at all making such claims.

KAT will always have more value than Vuc considering he’s younger, has more potential, and was heralded coming out of college. If we are talking about “value” from a team perspective that is going to change based on roster and situation. You don’t need to add the caveat that injury plays a role. Thanks captain obvious.

If we are really getting into what is required and ideal of Centers for playoff basketball Al Horford is the prototype. Multi positional defender, stretches the floor, facilitates, great pick and roll operator, etc. You can put many variations of roster configurations around a player like that without being extremely limited on either end of the floor. The same can’t be said of KAT and Vuc regardless of this pointless debate.

Contracts matter. Handing over a large % of cap space to players that need specific systems or rosters to facilitate their capabilities isn’t ideal. Not only that, but you are going to have a limited window to operate from if you shell out those kinds of deals without the requisite roster composition.

It’s not about what is considered “ideal” positionally. It’s considered what is ideal within the context of a roster. I’m not saying they “will never” as much as I’m saying that given their current situations a lot has to change for them to be as effective on playoff caliber rosters, especially when you end up paying them relative to other elite bigs.

Lol that's not what I said you said.

My words were: "Do you mean why am I showing stats and evidence that disprove your claim that Towns is so much superior than Vucevic that it can't even be questioned?"

...and you have absolutely made that statement. Here are a couple quotes from you in this exchange:

"Anyone outside of Orlando, that knows anything about the NBA, would tell you that Towns is the better player with a straight face and not think twice."

"KAT will always be more valuable because of his potential for where he is now in his career"

My rebuttal to that sentiment was that defense matters. I just showed you evidence that Vucevic is a superior defender and that he has proven that you can build a good defense with him at C...something Towns hasn't even come remotely close to. That's not an overblown statement, its real.

KAT doesn't automatically have more value because he is younger and more hyped. All that disappears if his contract size doesn't match his win count...and later on, even wins get more scrutinized if they don't lead to playoff success.

You are again making absolute statements about what is required and ideal. You do not know what will be required in future from a playoff center. What was ideal for a playoff C has changed over and over and over. Right now its trending away from bigs that can't shoot, two years ago it was trending towards unskilled rim runners, etc. Good teams emerge in a wide variety of roster constructions, always have, always will. There is no "prototypical" center for what has worked or will work in future...that is a constantly shifting terrain.

Your cap space opinion is wrong. The Magic can easily pay Vucevic and have flexibility. I have shown you the numbers in the past.

I have also shown you that contract cycles and NBA player movement ensures that what you are using as reason for not signing Vucevic - that "window" is actually totally irrelevant because in 2-4 years team will be totally different anyhow. That's just how the NBA is now and until there is a new CBA that tries to change that, its going to continue to be the NBA.

[MagicMatic]

Lol what? I never said that Towns was better defensively than Vuc. If Vucevic was putting up the numbers Towns was in year 2 or 3, and stretching the floor at a similar level, the case for Vucevic would be similar offensively. So now you are insinuating that Towns is only perceived as such because of his social media following and ppg. What a hot take. Saying that Vuc is impacting the game so much defensively compared to Towns is such an overblown statement. He’s definitely better, but you aren’t looking at either situation in context at all making such claims.

KAT will always have more value than Vuc considering he’s younger, has more potential, and was heralded coming out of college. If we are talking about “value” from a team perspective that is going to change based on roster and situation. You don’t need to add the caveat that injury plays a role. Thanks captain obvious.

If we are really getting into what is required and ideal of Centers for playoff basketball Al Horford is the prototype. Multi positional defender, stretches the floor, facilitates, great pick and roll operator, etc. You can put many variations of roster configurations around a player like that without being extremely limited on either end of the floor. The same can’t be said of KAT and Vuc regardless of this pointless debate.

Contracts matter. Handing over a large % of cap space to players that need specific systems or rosters to facilitate their capabilities isn’t ideal. Not only that, but you are going to have a limited window to operate from if you shell out those kinds of deals without the requisite roster composition.

It’s not about what is considered “ideal” positionally. It’s considered what is ideal within the context of a roster. I’m not saying they “will never” as much as I’m saying that given their current situations a lot has to change for them to be as effective on playoff caliber rosters, especially when you end up paying them relative to other elite bigs.

Lol that's not what I said you said.

My words were: "Do you mean why am I showing stats and evidence that disprove your claim that Towns is so much superior than Vucevic that it can't even be questioned?"

...and you have absolutely made that statement. Here are a couple quotes from you in this exchange:

"Anyone outside of Orlando, that knows anything about the NBA, would tell you that Towns is the better player with a straight face and not think twice."

"KAT will always be more valuable because of his potential for where he is now in his career"

My rebuttal to that sentiment was that defense matters. I just showed you evidence that Vucevic is a superior defender and that he has proven that you can build a good defense with him at C...something Towns hasn't even come remotely close to. That's not an overblown statement, its real.

KAT doesn't automatically have more value because he is younger and more hyped. All that disappears if his contract size doesn't match his win count...and later on, even wins get more scrutinized if they don't lead to playoff success.

You are again making absolute statements about what is required and ideal. You do not know what will be required in future from a playoff center. What was ideal for a playoff C has changed over and over and over. Right now its trending away from bigs that can't shoot, two years ago it was trending towards unskilled rim runners, etc. Good teams emerge in a wide variety of roster constructions, always have, always will. There is no "prototypical" center for what has worked or will work in future...that is a constantly shifting terrain.

Your cap space opinion is wrong. The Magic can easily pay Vucevic and have flexibility. I have shown you the numbers in the past.

I have also shown you that contract cycles and NBA player movement ensures that what you are using as reason for not signing Vucevic - that "window" is actually totally irrelevant because in 2-4 years team will be totally different anyhow. That's just how the NBA is now and until there is a new CBA that tries to change that, its going to continue to be the NBA.

Yep, and like I said, anyone outside of Orlando without blue tinted glasses would take Towns over Vuc. Vuc hasn’t signed a contract so what you are crying about doesn’t matter or make much sense in the context of “value”. You will die on this hill of continuing to make this comparison because you are trying to justify that your boy is more deserving because his “defense” is better out of two Centers with poor to sub par defense in the first place. Cool.

As far as roster construction changing and “ideal” versions of players goes, I said specifically that there are no “ideal players positionally” only rosters that compliment and emphasize a players productivity. Neither Orlando or Minnesota currently have rosters that compliment Vuc or Towns that well. That’s not saying that we are missing the “ideal Center” as much as it’s saying the identity of the roster/ personnel has to adjust to their strengths if they require a % of that cap space further limiting the available possible configurations. That’s not an absolute statement to say that a 42-40 and a 36-46 team aren’t massively effective given their rosters.

[ezzzp]

Lol that's not what I said you said.

My words were: "Do you mean why am I showing stats and evidence that disprove your claim that Towns is so much superior than Vucevic that it can't even be questioned?"

...and you have absolutely made that statement. Here are a couple quotes from you in this exchange:

"Anyone outside of Orlando, that knows anything about the NBA, would tell you that Towns is the better player with a straight face and not think twice."

"KAT will always be more valuable because of his potential for where he is now in his career"

My rebuttal to that sentiment was that defense matters. I just showed you evidence that Vucevic is a superior defender and that he has proven that you can build a good defense with him at C...something Towns hasn't even come remotely close to. That's not an overblown statement, its real.

KAT doesn't automatically have more value because he is younger and more hyped. All that disappears if his contract size doesn't match his win count...and later on, even wins get more scrutinized if they don't lead to playoff success.

You are again making absolute statements about what is required and ideal. You do not know what will be required in future from a playoff center. What was ideal for a playoff C has changed over and over and over. Right now its trending away from bigs that can't shoot, two years ago it was trending towards unskilled rim runners, etc. Good teams emerge in a wide variety of roster constructions, always have, always will. There is no "prototypical" center for what has worked or will work in future...that is a constantly shifting terrain.

Your cap space opinion is wrong. The Magic can easily pay Vucevic and have flexibility. I have shown you the numbers in the past.

I have also shown you that contract cycles and NBA player movement ensures that what you are using as reason for not signing Vucevic - that "window" is actually totally irrelevant because in 2-4 years team will be totally different anyhow. That's just how the NBA is now and until there is a new CBA that tries to change that, its going to continue to be the NBA.

Yep, and like I said, anyone outside of Orlando without blue tinted glasses would take Towns over Vuc. Neither have signed their contracts so what you are crying about doesn’t matter or make much sense in the context of “value”. You will die on this hill of continuing to make this comparison because you are trying to justify that your boy is more deserving because his “defense” is better out of two Centers with poor to sub par defense in the first place. Cool.

As far as roster construction changing and “ideal” versions of players goes, I said specifically that there are no “ideal players positionally” only rosters that that compliment and emphasize a players productivity. Neither Orlando or Minnesota currently have rosters that compliment Vuc or Towns that well. That’s not saying that we are missing the “ideal Center” as much as it’s saying the identity of the roster/ personnel has to adjust to their strengths if they require a % of that cap space further limiting the available possible configurations. That’s not an absolute statement to say that a 42-40 and a 36-46 team aren’t massively effective given their rosters.

Yep and that doesn't mean anything. Once you wipe the tears from your eyes, you'll be able to see that Towns isn't an option for Orlando, but Vucevic is. I won't die on any hill, Vucevic has shown his ability to be part of a top 8 defense, and 3 mid tier defenses...Towns has not, in fact he's been anchor to bottom scraping defenses his entire career. That matters wether your anti-Vucevic bias allows you to see it or not.

...and yes you absolutely did say there are ideals, these are your words:

"if we are really getting into what is required and ideal of Centers for playoff basketball Al Horford is the prototype."

You even went into details as to why:

"Multi positional defender, stretches the floor, facilitates, great pick and roll operator, etc. You can put many variations of roster configurations around a player like that without being extremely limited on either end of the floor. The same can’t be said of KAT and Vuc regardless of this pointless debate."

Your assumption is that the current trends last forever. Except that's now how the NBA works, it is a league constantly changing. When the current wave of really good young bigs hits their prime that could just as easily change the league dramatically, just like when the wave of elite PG's entered the NBA a decade ago.

You don't know what the identity of the roster is now, much less what it will be in 2-4 years. You are assuming that the strength of the roster is what your bias wants it to be...its not.

What we do know is the FO has a history of building with length and value players with high bbIQ on both ends and play the right way - making each other better. Weltman and Hammond have both stated that over and over and over. Vucevic has a 7'6" wingspan, has excellent bbIQ and does all the little things that make his teammates better. There is no reason to assume that he can't be part of what they want to put on the floor over his next 4 year contract cycle. In my opinion, it will boil down to $, not this biased notion that you have that he can't ever be part of a good team.

[basketballRob]

Lol that's not what I said you said.

My words were: "Do you mean why am I showing stats and evidence that disprove your claim that Towns is so much superior than Vucevic that it can't even be questioned?"

...and you have absolutely made that statement. Here are a couple quotes from you in this exchange:

"Anyone outside of Orlando, that knows anything about the NBA, would tell you that Towns is the better player with a straight face and not think twice."

"KAT will always be more valuable because of his potential for where he is now in his career"

My rebuttal to that sentiment was that defense matters. I just showed you evidence that Vucevic is a superior defender and that he has proven that you can build a good defense with him at C...something Towns hasn't even come remotely close to. That's not an overblown statement, its real.

KAT doesn't automatically have more value because he is younger and more hyped. All that disappears if his contract size doesn't match his win count...and later on, even wins get more scrutinized if they don't lead to playoff success.

You are again making absolute statements about what is required and ideal. You do not know what will be required in future from a playoff center. What was ideal for a playoff C has changed over and over and over. Right now its trending away from bigs that can't shoot, two years ago it was trending towards unskilled rim runners, etc. Good teams emerge in a wide variety of roster constructions, always have, always will. There is no "prototypical" center for what has worked or will work in future...that is a constantly shifting terrain.

Your cap space opinion is wrong. The Magic can easily pay Vucevic and have flexibility. I have shown you the numbers in the past.

I have also shown you that contract cycles and NBA player movement ensures that what you are using as reason for not signing Vucevic - that "window" is actually totally irrelevant because in 2-4 years team will be totally different anyhow. That's just how the NBA is now and until there is a new CBA that tries to change that, its going to continue to be the NBA.

Yep, and like I said, anyone outside of Orlando without blue tinted glasses would take Towns over Vuc. Neither have signed their contracts so what you are crying about doesn’t matter or make much sense in the context of “value”. You will die on this hill of continuing to make this comparison because you are trying to justify that your boy is more deserving because his “defense” is better out of two Centers with poor to sub par defense in the first place. Cool.

As far as roster construction changing and “ideal” versions of players goes, I said specifically that there are no “ideal players positionally” only rosters that that compliment and emphasize a players productivity. Neither Orlando or Minnesota currently have rosters that compliment Vuc or Towns that well. That’s not saying that we are missing the “ideal Center” as much as it’s saying the identity of the roster/ personnel has to adjust to their strengths if they require a % of that cap space further limiting the available possible configurations. That’s not an absolute statement to say that a 42-40 and a 36-46 team aren’t massively effective given their rosters.

Yep and that doesn't mean anything. Once you wipe the tears from your eyes, you'll be able to see that Towns isn't an option for Orlando, but Vucevic is. I won't die on any hill, Vucevic has shown his ability to be part of a top 8 defense, and 3 mid tier defenses...Towns has not, in fact he's been anchor to bottom scraping defenses his entire career. That matters wether your anti-Vucevic bias allows you to see it or not.

...and yes you absolutely did say there are ideals, these are your words:

"if we are really getting into what is required and ideal of Centers for playoff basketball Al Horford is the prototype."

You even went into details as to why:

"Multi positional defender, stretches the floor, facilitates, great pick and roll operator, etc. You can put many variations of roster configurations around a player like that without being extremely limited on either end of the floor. The same can’t be said of KAT and Vuc regardless of this pointless debate."

Your assumption is that the current trends last forever. Except that's now how the NBA works, it is a league constantly changing. When the current wave of really good young bigs hits their prime that could just as easily change the league dramatically, just like when the wave of elite PG's entered the NBA a decade ago.

You don't know what the identity of the roster is now, much less what it will be in 2-4 years. You are assuming that the strength of the roster is what your bias wants it to be...its not.

What we do know is the FO has a history of building with length and value players with high bbIQ on both ends and play the right way - making each other better. Weltman and Hammond have both stated that over and over and over. Vucevic has a 7'6" wingspan, has excellent bbIQ and does all the little things that make his teammates better. There is no reason to assume that he can't be part of what they want to put on the floor over his next 4 year contract cycle. In my opinion, it will boil down to $, not this biased notion that you have that he can't ever be part of a good team.

Off the top of my head Vuc doesn't have a 7'6" wingspan, it's like 7'4.

Sent from my SM-G965U using RealGM mobile app

[MagicMatic]

Lol that's not what I said you said.

My words were: "Do you mean why am I showing stats and evidence that disprove your claim that Towns is so much superior than Vucevic that it can't even be questioned?"

...and you have absolutely made that statement. Here are a couple quotes from you in this exchange:

"Anyone outside of Orlando, that knows anything about the NBA, would tell you that Towns is the better player with a straight face and not think twice."

"KAT will always be more valuable because of his potential for where he is now in his career"

My rebuttal to that sentiment was that defense matters. I just showed you evidence that Vucevic is a superior defender and that he has proven that you can build a good defense with him at C...something Towns hasn't even come remotely close to. That's not an overblown statement, its real.

KAT doesn't automatically have more value because he is younger and more hyped. All that disappears if his contract size doesn't match his win count...and later on, even wins get more scrutinized if they don't lead to playoff success.

You are again making absolute statements about what is required and ideal. You do not know what will be required in future from a playoff center. What was ideal for a playoff C has changed over and over and over. Right now its trending away from bigs that can't shoot, two years ago it was trending towards unskilled rim runners, etc. Good teams emerge in a wide variety of roster constructions, always have, always will. There is no "prototypical" center for what has worked or will work in future...that is a constantly shifting terrain.

Your cap space opinion is wrong. The Magic can easily pay Vucevic and have flexibility. I have shown you the numbers in the past.

I have also shown you that contract cycles and NBA player movement ensures that what you are using as reason for not signing Vucevic - that "window" is actually totally irrelevant because in 2-4 years team will be totally different anyhow. That's just how the NBA is now and until there is a new CBA that tries to change that, its going to continue to be the NBA.

Yep, and like I said, anyone outside of Orlando without blue tinted glasses would take Towns over Vuc. Neither have signed their contracts so what you are crying about doesn’t matter or make much sense in the context of “value”. You will die on this hill of continuing to make this comparison because you are trying to justify that your boy is more deserving because his “defense” is better out of two Centers with poor to sub par defense in the first place. Cool.

As far as roster construction changing and “ideal” versions of players goes, I said specifically that there are no “ideal players positionally” only rosters that that compliment and emphasize a players productivity. Neither Orlando or Minnesota currently have rosters that compliment Vuc or Towns that well. That’s not saying that we are missing the “ideal Center” as much as it’s saying the identity of the roster/ personnel has to adjust to their strengths if they require a % of that cap space further limiting the available possible configurations. That’s not an absolute statement to say that a 42-40 and a 36-46 team aren’t massively effective given their rosters.

Yep and that doesn't mean anything. Once you wipe the tears from your eyes, you'll be able to see that Towns isn't an option for Orlando, but Vucevic is. I won't die on any hill, Vucevic has shown his ability to be part of a top 8 defense, and 3 mid tier defenses...Towns has not, in fact he's been anchor to bottom scraping defenses his entire career. That matters wether your anti-Vucevic bias allows you to see it or not.

...and yes you absolutely did say there are ideals, these are your words:

"if we are really getting into what is required and ideal of Centers for playoff basketball Al Horford is the prototype."

You even went into details as to why:

"Multi positional defender, stretches the floor, facilitates, great pick and roll operator, etc. You can put many variations of roster configurations around a player like that without being extremely limited on either end of the floor. The same can’t be said of KAT and Vuc regardless of this pointless debate."

Your assumption is that the current trends last forever. Except that's now how the NBA works, it is a league constantly changing. When the current wave of really good young bigs hits their prime that could just as easily change the league dramatically, just like when the wave of elite PG's entered the NBA a decade ago.

You don't know what the identity of the roster is now, much less what it will be in 2-4 years. You are assuming that the strength of the roster is what your bias wants it to be...its not.

What we do know is the FO has a history of building with length and value players with high bbIQ on both ends and play the right way - making each other better. Weltman and Hammond have both stated that over and over and over. Vucevic has a 7'6" wingspan, has excellent bbIQ and does all the little things that make his teammates better. There is no reason to assume that he can't be part of what they want to put on the floor over his next 4 year contract cycle. In my opinion, it will boil down to $, not this biased notion that you have that he can't ever be part of a good team.

When did I say he was? I’m not the one crying. I also don’t view Towns as a good use of cap space if we are playing the hypothetical game of “who is better out of two players that aren’t ideal to build around”. You are arguing about nothing per usual.

Yes I said it’s easier to have a Center like Horford because of what he brings to the table as a player. That’s not based on trends. That’s based on being multi-faceted with few glaring holes needing to compliment his game on a roster basis. Your failure to distinguish the two is on you. You disagree with my assessment? Cool. You want to cry about disagreeing with me? (again) go for it.

You could list all of the reasons you love Vucevic and protect him like he’s your son. It’s not going to change the fact that he’s considered less valuable than Towns, Jokic, AD, etc. by the majority of the population that actually watch nba basketball.

[basketballRob]

Vuc wingspan is 7'4.5". His standing reach is 9'4 5".

Sent from my SM-G965U using RealGM mobile app

[ezzzp]

Off the top of my head Vuc doesn't have a 7'6" wingspan, it's like 7'4.

Just looked it up at NBA.com draft anthro page...it was 7-4.5 which is still good

but he had a ridiculous 9-4.5 reach which is abnormal...most guys in 7-4 wingspan range like Steven Adams, Dedmon, WCS, Myles Turner and many others have reach below 9-1...Brook Lopez and Demarcus Cousins had similar proportions with 7-5 wingspan and 9-5 reach

I wish NBA made anthro required from all combine players

[basketballRob]

Off the top of my head Vuc doesn't have a 7'6" wingspan, it's like 7'4.

Just looked it up at NBA.com draft anthro page...it was 7-4.5

but he had a ridiculous 9-4.5 reach which is abnormal...most guys in 7-4 wingspan range like Steven Adams, Dedmon, WCS, Myles Turner and many others have reach below 9-1...Brook Lopez and Demarcus Cousins had similar proportions with 7-5 wingspan and 9-5 reach

I wish NBA made anthro required from all combine players

Mo's is 9'7 5".

Sent from my SM-G965U using RealGM mobile app

[ezzzp]

Off the top of my head Vuc doesn't have a 7'6" wingspan, it's like 7'4.

Just looked it up at NBA.com draft anthro page...it was 7-4.5

but he had a ridiculous 9-4.5 reach which is abnormal...most guys in 7-4 wingspan range like Steven Adams, Dedmon, WCS, Myles Turner and many others have reach below 9-1...Brook Lopez and Demarcus Cousins had similar proportions with 7-5 wingspan and 9-5 reach

I wish NBA made anthro required from all combine players

Mo's is 9'7 5".

Sent from my SM-G965U using RealGM mobile app

and 225 lbs dude needs to eat

[basketballRob]

Just looked it up at NBA.com draft anthro page...it was 7-4.5

but he had a ridiculous 9-4.5 reach which is abnormal...most guys in 7-4 wingspan range like Steven Adams, Dedmon, WCS, Myles Turner and many others have reach below 9-1...Brook Lopez and Demarcus Cousins had similar proportions with 7-5 wingspan and 9-5 reach

I wish NBA made anthro required from all combine players

Mo's is 9'7 5".

Sent from my SM-G965U using RealGM mobile app

and 225 lbs dude needs to eat

True, I think Kareem was close to Mo's size and wingspan.

Kareem was 225 to 240. Wilt's standing reach was identical to Bamba's. 9'7.5"

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