Doctor MJ wrote:Dr Spaceman wrote:Doctor MJ wrote:
Well, I have a tough time putting Harden ahead of Curry at this point. Maybe I will with the right arguments, but the essence of it for me:
I just think Curry's better than Harden. I think Curry was better in that beta role behind Durant's alpha than Harden would be, and I think Curry's a better alpha than Harden too.
I understand that if you believe Curry's beta role is less impressive than Harden's alpha and you weight that part of the year as an advantage over Curry you probably end up with Harden still ahead, but I don't really think such distinctions are all that meaningful when the reason for the primacy difference was about personal sacrifice for the good of the team.
If I voted right this moment it'd be:
1. Giannis
2. Kawhi
3. Curry
4. Harden
5. somebody (I'll think more about that if people want to have that conversation)
I remain unconvinced of this. Houston last year had some jaw-dropping offensive results. Harden/Paul lineups were about equal to the best we’ve ever seen from GSW with or without Durant (125 ORTG) and those lineups with Gordon were well into the stratosphere (130 with Capela at C, 135 with Tucker at C). Realistically if you put 2018 Paul on the 2019 Rockets squad I think they coast to a title and that 2018 team has a legit argument for best non-title winning team ever. If Paul doesn’t get hurt I think we view these guys very different,y.
Also worth noting Houston has never paid the luxury tax in the D’Antoni era while GSW has the most expensive roster in NBA history. We’re basically seeing the mid-00’s Suns crashing into the Spurs every year all over again. That Houston is one of the very best teams with Harden as an alpha while spending pennies compared to every other elite team is a rather big feather in his cap. Harden is able to bootstrap a team of 0s offensively to a +7 offense with a ceiling much, ugh higher with some actual talent alongside him.
I respect your opinon in general and don't think this one is crazy either.
First thing: When you say you "remain" unconvinced, this implies that you never thought Curry was better, and I doubt that. As of '15-16, pretty sure everyone on the planet thought Curry was better. So what you're really saying is that some combination of things since Durant arrived had allowed Harden to move past Curry in your mind.
It hasn't for me, and that's despite the fact that I had no issue at all rating Harden ahead of Curry last year for POY. I don't think Curry when he's in beta or semi-beta mode is doing something as special as Harden, and thus when that's all Curry does, I give Harden the nod. But what I've seen in the playoffs just leaves me feeling like broadly speaking, Curry's higher ceiling remains in effect.
A key thing for me is that I think there are issues with running the Houston offense through Harden like they do. I think it renders others passive, and I think that Harden tends to rely on tactics that refs actively try to combat harder in the playoffs. Curry on the other hand galvanizes others, has shown continued flexibility on & off ball, and still burns more nuclear at his best than anyone else in the game. I also think Curry is one of the best leaders in the game, and I don't think this about Harden.
Thanks for the kind words Doc, and I absolutely respect your take here as well. Just a couple things:
- I did rate Curry higher (much higher) after that 16 season. The difference to me is that Harden has improved leaps and bounds each of the last three years while Curry has largely stagnated. Harden’s year over year improvements, from improving his passing to pushing his step back behind the arc to developing a killer floater to pushing his iso game to beyond normal human limits to bulking up to the size of a linebacker is something we’ve basically only seen from LeBron in recent memory. Curry just hasn’t had the same trajectory, and in fact he’s never recaptured his 2016 magic, which leads to...
-Harden is the guy with the reputation for playoff failures, while Curry is the one I see actually consistently get schemed out of his game. Harden seems to mostly fail because of fatigue or conditioning issues while Curry really struggles against teams with mobile big men and aggressive point of attack defenders that heavily utilize switching. Granted, that’s very few teams, but that teams that can do that also happen to be the teams that go deep in the playoffs. I don’t think a team can scheme against Harden the way we’ve seen Houston themselves, OKC, Cleveland make Curry hesitate and go passive.
-to whit, Harden’s low scoring game this postseason is 22, and his high is 41. Curry’s low is 12, his high is 47. So while his ability to “go nuclear” is certainly superior to Harden’s, his ability to go Chernobyl is also much higher. Harden is simply the more consistent player; matter of fact he’s one of the most consistent scorers we’ve ever seen. Curry was bad against LAC and was bad for 75% of the Houston series as well. Harden’s team can’t even afford him to have a bad quarter, let alone a single game. Houston’s offense managed a pathetic .95 ppp against Utah with him sitting and it was barely better against Golden State, for an overall offensive rating of 114 with Harden and 101 without. Harden was also #2 in offensive playoff RAPM after only LeBron in the spreadsheet posted here earlier.
-Curry is Born on third base in a lot of ways. His team has Draymond and Durant who can do the heavy lifting which means Ucrry can bide his time and play lacksadaisical and then turn on his “nuclear” self when the time is right. But that nuclear style requires energy, and that’s maybe why we don’t see Harden do it. The Rockets rely on hIm to initiate every possession, he can’t just take quarters off and then explode like Curry does. He needs to score 8 points every quarter or his team will fail, while Curry can score 0 in one half and then 25 in the other.
-If the 2019 playoffs have convinced you Curry’s still “got it”, and thus he’s still better than Harden, id ask you to take a long look at the quality of competition and the schemes they run. Curry demolished Portland in a truly embarrassing way. But you know who else did that? New Orleans, and I don’t think anyone is calling them something GOAT-level. And NOP faced Portland with Nurkic healthy. He’s played well against Toronto, but his team has managed 108 points per 100 while the Raptors held all teams to 107 in the regular season. And this is despite Toronto choosing sub-optimal strategies like keeping Gasol out there and refusing to switch because the threat of Curry individually going off doesn’t seem that scary to them. Against a similar caliber of defense in Utah, Harden’s Rockets managed 1.1 points per possession (+5 compared to regular season) and this is with perhaps the most aggressive defensive scheme we’ve ever seen attempted against a star player.
