2018-19 Player of the Year Discussion Thread

[PCProductions]

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Anybody feel like we should do a "best player" thread following the trade value format we did?

This list is mostly where I'm at with the exception of AD. Feels weird to rank Lebron below him despite similar years. Homer in me loves that he has steph at #1, but it's pretty fair when you don't let the narratives drive your rankings.

[dontcalltimeout]

Some thoughts after the season


1) Curry

Legit never seen anyone guarded the way he was in that game. The Raptors took advantage of the Warrior's lacking other threats and were just about doubling him off-ball and by the end they were triple-teaming him as the ball was on its way to his hands. Curry made the right play every time and created so many looks off his attention from plays like this:

Read on Twitter

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I think we're seeing the goat offensive player in action.

2) Giannis

A beast on the defensive end. As we saw, can be challenged on offense with strategic swarming, but I think that would be tough for any player. I think now it's obvious that this Raptors defense is special and that they were able to out-maneuver Milwaukee's game plan is not an indictment on Giannis as a player. Still think he had the biggest impact on his team's winning of any player over the regular season + playoffs. If he gets any better as a passer or shooter he could be one of the scariest players of all time.

3) Kawhi

I think there is something to his calm. He kept the raptors from getting too high or too low through some stretches that could have shaken a first time finals team. His performance in the finals was good, he had his moments, but not all-time worthy or anything. I think it's clear his motor is not what it would take to be a top 5 player on offense and DPOY. He is a good defensive player, when engaged, but I think his off-ball and help abilities are low-key weaknesses. (part of the reason the strategy to put Kawhi more on Giannis worked so well is that it helped mitigate Kawhi's weakness as an off-ball/help defender).

Offensively, he's a dynamite scorer when covered one-on-one and his ability to create space for good midrange looks with his right arm is awesome. His drives are wild because he seems to have a very limited first step (how much is this health related?) but he just barrels his way to the rim with incredible strength. However, I think we saw some weaknesses when the Warriors were shading him. Iguodala, in particular, did a great job when not on-ball to make Kawhi see bodies at the spots he's trying to get to. When this happen, Kawhi really has no answers and more often than not just makes a bail out pass with no advantage gained for the offense. He needs to figure out how to take advantage of defensive attention if he wants to improve and deliver more on-target passes so that the defense doesn't have time to rotate to open shooters.


4) Harden

The hardest to evaluate. Carried the biggest load of any player and did it impressively. His step-back somehow got even better this year. I think this play style is really hard to sustain for an entire season + playoffs. I think there's a reason why RAPM (luck-adjusted or otherwise), continues to clock him outside the top 10 (and sometimes outside the top 20). Some of that is that he takes a chunk of what he brings of the table, defensively.

Overall, Harden is still so hard to evaluate because we've never seen anyone play like this before and it's hard to know who to credit or blame between Harden/D'Antoni/Morey. With the right roster, I think the Rockets can win a ring, but it's not a style that makes the most of talented teammates. I think last year's Rockets team was a strong championship-level team, but I credit a big chunk of that to Chris Paul. This year, with a lesser CP, even more fell to Harden, which i'm not sure was a good thing.

5) Jokic

For the past few years, some of us have been shouting about this savant as legitimately one of the best offensive players in the world and he finally got to show it in the playoffs. He played 14 playoff games and still has one of the best overall box-score performances of any player this playoffs (Elgee's playoff stats have him with the highest BPM, passer rating, and box creation). That's to go along with a 116 ORTG with him on the court, +1.3 higher than the regular season score! I think he got a little bit "lucky" to not have to play the Rockets or Warriors as he might have been more exposed defensively, but after making it through two playoff series it's clear that his game is more resilient than some have worried.

edit: Somehow forgot about PG here. When healthy he was playing at a two-way level that is very, very rare. I don't know what to make of his candidacy due to his injury. Simply wasn't the same player at the end of the year. Would love to read opinions on how his year should be considered.

[MapleJordan79]

I have Curry and Giannis as the clear no.1 and no.2 but after that it gets insanely close. As a Raps fan who watched probably 50 regular season games and every playoff game I can say with 100% certainty that Leonard is being wildly overrated. His defensive reputation is carrying the perception of his season when in reality he was at best the 3rd best defender (Putting Lowry and Green over him is defensible) on the team in the playoffs and not top 5 in the regular season. His iso scoring was phenomenal but his awful vision capped his impact offensively. The Raptors were much more akin to teams like the 14 Spurs or 04 Pistons than a one man carry job. Kawhi was phenomenal but there is no way in hell he deserves POY.

1. Curry
2. Giannis

3. Jokic
4. Harden
5. Kawhi

[Krodis]

I have to say I genuinely don't understand the Curry picks at all. Are people giving him a ton of credit for stomping Portland or something?

[Timmyyy]

I would go

1. Harden
2. Giannis
3. Jokic
4. Kawhi
5. Curry
6. Draymond (HM)

Made some posts why I am not as high on Kawhi as some this season, although I have to say that I think 1.-4. are pretty much interchangeable. I would be ok with any ranking of these four, this is just my gut feeling. So I could actually see Kawhi as 1st this season. Curry a little behind the top4 for me. I know he has a high floor impact because of his gravity but he was still too inconsistent for me and pretty invisible for nearly the entire first two rounds. I think overall he took too much of a backseat to Durant this season in general. Draymond for me was tied for the 2nd best playoff performance along with Jokic until he had some stinkers in the finals (still great playoffs overall), that made up for a lot of ground (considering I had him in the 10-20 range for RS).

[Gibson22]

Extremely overrated season by curry and I'm feeling like his fans came here to save him after this FAILURE in game 6.
He was balling in the first part of the season, then he went down and missed 13 games, he had a months long bad stretch and played bad until 2/3 of the rockets series, extremely bad against them. He stomped the not so good blazers, and then he had an odd series against the rockets, great average numbers but bad in the most important games, put up an historic 47 when the game was impossible to win (without kd and klay), played bad in game 4 when, with klay, the had the chance to tie the series, played bad in game 6, with 6/17 (3 hail mary shots, but still 6/14), bad defense etc. played pretty bad in game 2. I don't understand the appreciation for this season, I have this as the worst or second worst season of him since 2015. Leonard didn't play a great final and coasted in the regular season but he was absolutely historic against phila and played a great series against milwaukee, and still played better than steph in the finals.
Antetokounmpo failed in the playoffs (didn't even dominate as he was supposed to against boston if not for one game) but he had a huge rs, harden was better than steph in both rs and playoffs.
Jokic wasn't far, too.

1) Leonard
2) Harden
3) Curry
4) Durant (played a full standard mvp level rs and he was pretty much sensational for 11 games and 11 minutes in the playoffs)
5) Giannis
6) Jokic

[MapleJordan79]

Extremely overrated season by curry and I'm feeling like his fans came here to save him after this FAILURE in game 6.
He was balling in the first part of the season, then he went down and missed 13 games, he had a months long bad stretch and played bad until 2/3 of the rockets series, extremely bad against them. He stomped the not so good blazers, and then he had an odd series against the rockets, great average numbers but bad in the most important games, put up an historic 47 when the game was impossible to win (without kd and klay), played bad in game 4 when, with klay, the had the chance to tie the series, played bad in game 6, with 6/17 (3 hail mary shots, but still 6/14), bad defense etc. played pretty bad in game 2. I don't understand the appreciation for this season, I have this as the worst or second worst season of him since 2015. Leonard didn't play a great final and coasted in the regular season but he was absolutely historic against phila and played a great series against milwaukee, and still played better than steph in the finals.
Antetokounmpo failed in the playoffs (didn't even dominate as he was supposed to against boston if not for one game) but he had a huge rs, harden was better than steph in both rs and playoffs.
Jokic wasn't far, too.

1) Leonard
2) Harden
3) Curry
4) Durant (played a full standard mvp level rs and he was pretty much sensational for 11 games and 11 minutes in the playoffs)
5) Giannis
6) Jokic

Durant shouldn't sniff anyone's list. He was hurt for the playoffs end of story. I'd have Durant 3 probably if he was healthy but this isn't a hypothetical endeavor. It's picking the players who gave their teams the best chance to win a chip. You can't do that missing the last 2 and a half rounds.

[Jaivl]

I have to say I genuinely don't understand the Curry picks at all. Are people giving him a ton of credit for stomping Portland or something?

If you rate "best player" instead of "best year" I guess he has the best case.

[Gibson22]

Extremely overrated season by curry and I'm feeling like his fans came here to save him after this FAILURE in game 6.
He was balling in the first part of the season, then he went down and missed 13 games, he had a months long bad stretch and played bad until 2/3 of the rockets series, extremely bad against them. He stomped the not so good blazers, and then he had an odd series against the rockets, great average numbers but bad in the most important games, put up an historic 47 when the game was impossible to win (without kd and klay), played bad in game 4 when, with klay, the had the chance to tie the series, played bad in game 6, with 6/17 (3 hail mary shots, but still 6/14), bad defense etc. played pretty bad in game 2. I don't understand the appreciation for this season, I have this as the worst or second worst season of him since 2015. Leonard didn't play a great final and coasted in the regular season but he was absolutely historic against phila and played a great series against milwaukee, and still played better than steph in the finals.
Antetokounmpo failed in the playoffs (didn't even dominate as he was supposed to against boston if not for one game) but he had a huge rs, harden was better than steph in both rs and playoffs.
Jokic wasn't far, too.

1) Leonard
2) Harden
3) Curry
4) Durant (played a full standard mvp level rs and he was pretty much sensational for 11 games and 11 minutes in the playoffs)
5) Giannis
6) Jokic

Durant shouldn't sniff anyone's list. He was hurt for the playoffs end of story. I'd have Durant 3 probably if he was healthy but this isn't a hypothetical endeavor. It's picking the players who gave their teams the best chance to win a chip. You can't do that missing the last 2 and a half rounds.

Wrong, he was healthy enough to bring his team pretty much 1 game shy of the finals, given the difference between the rockets and the weak blazers. He missed the finals and that's huge, but he pretty much couldn't play just one real game in the west. Giannis was there but wasn't good enough to bring them to the finals, other players who can make the list were eliminated before the conference finals

[NinjaSheppard]

ElGee's list

1. Curry
2. Giannis
3. Durant
4. Davis
5. Kawhi
6. LeBron
7. Harden
8. Embiid
9. George
10. Jokic

thoughts?

[NinjaSheppard]

Anyways, I haven't participated to have a ballot but I'd go

1. Harden
2. Giannis
3. Kawhi
4. Curry
5. Jokic

[Krodis]

ElGee's list

1. Curry
2. Giannis
3. Durant
4. Davis
5. Kawhi
6. LeBron
7. Harden
8. Embiid
9. George
10. Jokic

thoughts?

I respect ElGee a lot but LeBron and Davis' placements are just mystifying.

[LKN]

My argument for Giannis would be... is there a player in the league you could put on the Bucks that would make them a better team by replacing Giannis?

I can't think of one. He's way better on defense (other than maybe Embiid) compared to the other guys people are mentioning.

[Gibson22]

ElGee's list

1. Curry
2. Giannis
3. Durant
4. Davis
5. Kawhi
6. LeBron
7. Harden
8. Embiid
9. George
10. Jokic

thoughts?

whack, he probalby used some formula to elaborate instead of thinking

[Joey Wheeler]

I have to say I genuinely don't understand the Curry picks at all. Are people giving him a ton of credit for stomping Portland or something?

Curry is just insanely overrated on this board. I'm pretty sure if GSW had won the title he'd win this POY vote. He somehow finished #2 in 2017, which is just mind-boggling.

You have people claiming he's better than Jordan and Lebron offensively although you can contain him and disrupt his entire team's offense (except when he has Durant next to him of course) with simple traps.

It's interesting how most people here thought the Raps were going to get routined by the Bucks and then lose to GSW even with Durant out, while GSW were touted as likely champions and even though Kawhi is the main reason those expectations were completely subverted Curry somehow still seems to have got more credit out of this situation than him.

[Dr Spaceman]

ElGee's list

1. Curry
2. Giannis
3. Durant
4. Davis
5. Kawhi
6. LeBron
7. Harden
8. Embiid
9. George
10. Jokic

thoughts?

Some of this seems well beyond justification. 56 games of Davis puts him ahead of Kawhi? Harden all the way down at #7 behind Durant (who played the same number of playoff games) and LeBron who missed a month and a half?

[cpower]

I have to say I genuinely don't understand the Curry picks at all. Are people giving him a ton of credit for stomping Portland or something?

for beating the rockets most likely. It's understandable, if you think about it. Curry had the better RS and better PS than Kawhi. Only Giannis/Harden has a better case.

[Joey Wheeler]

ElGee's list

1. Curry
2. Giannis
3. Durant
4. Davis
5. Kawhi
6. LeBron
7. Harden
8. Embiid
9. George
10. Jokic

thoughts?

Very weird list, don't even know what to make of it. Davis's placement clearly stands out there. I actually think AD is the best player in the league ability-wise, but can't see how you'd rate him top 4 for a season where he played like 50 games or less and didn't make the playoffs.

[yoyoboy]

ElGee's list

1. Curry
2. Giannis
3. Durant
4. Davis
5. Kawhi
6. LeBron
7. Harden
8. Embiid
9. George
10. Jokic

thoughts?

I respect ElGee a lot but LeBron and Davis' placements are just mystifying.

I also just can't get behind placing Harden that low.

[Joey Wheeler]

I have to say I genuinely don't understand the Curry picks at all. Are people giving him a ton of credit for stomping Portland or something?

for beating the rockets most likely. It's understandable, if you think about it. Curry had the better RS and better PS than Kawhi. Only Giannis/Harden has a better case.

He averaged 24 on 54% TS in that series vs the Rockets, shot 28% from 3.

Yeah, I can totally see how this series proves he's the best player.