We really should stop calling everyone a "Two Way Player"

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Re: We really should stop calling everyone a "Two Way Player" 

Post#81 » by Raps in 4 » Sat Jun 15, 2019 8:43 pm

1. PIPM is a flawed stat
2. Kawhi's defence according to +/- stats is down this year, but he was absolutely an elite defender in past seasons (he had a 4.59 DRPM in 2014-15, which Giannis and Embiid have never even come close to)
3. His effort wasn't consistent this year, but it was there when it needed to be (see Bucks series)
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Re: We really should stop calling everyone a "Two Way Player" 

Post#82 » by bisme37 » Sat Jun 15, 2019 8:49 pm

Yeah I don't get the need to make a distinction. The game is played two ways, everyone is a two way player. It's like saying I'm a two way breather.
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Re: We really should stop calling everyone a 

Post#83 » by freethedevil » Sat Jun 15, 2019 9:05 pm

CobyWhiteDaGoat wrote:
clyde21 wrote:
CobyWhiteDaGoat wrote:To be a two-way player you have to be a good defender, Harden and Steph aren't good defenders so they aren't two-way players

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Steph is a great help defender

:lol: :lol:

The "don't use stats' crowd really doesn't watch the game much do they? Curry had plenty of stretches where he forced harden into help, he's been effective lebron and sg's shoot worse than average vs him. He was the warriors best answer vs lou williams, their best weapon against chris paul and their best weapon vs kyle lowry. He's able to positioning himself well enough so that he can exploit help vs the likesof lebron vs harden. Even in the finals we've seen him have strecthes where he's nuetrailized transition o. Currys' graded out as a positve defensively on every metric because of the value of his help d, is effectiveness vs smalls, and his quick hands which have made him a perrenial steal leader. Harden on the other hand grades out as a neagtive because for all his strength he's slow and largely in active on defence.

Curry's a positive because you can use him strengths and he understands his limiations. Off course you wont' see these ifyou're judging defences by highlight blocks on youtube
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Re: We really should stop calling everyone a 

Post#84 » by freethedevil » Sat Jun 15, 2019 9:06 pm

Raps in 4 wrote:1. PIPM is a flawed stat

PIPM is the best at predicting future team success. Data contradicting you doesn't make it wrong.

2014-2015 isn't relevant to now and Kawhi's stndout performance was a result of a unique scheme.
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Re: We really should stop calling everyone a "Two Way Player" 

Post#85 » by freethedevil » Sat Jun 15, 2019 9:12 pm

RealityIsDemar wrote:You don't need to be a superstar to be a player that's fluid and a net positive on both ends of the court. If you're bringing it on Offence, and on Defence then you impact the game both ways, and, in my mind are a Two Way Player.

In that case, literally every superstar not named harden plays two ways. :lol:
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Re: We really should stop calling everyone a "Two Way Player" 

Post#86 » by freethedevil » Sat Jun 15, 2019 9:27 pm

SlowPaced wrote:Two-way player is a legitimate term, it's just being used in an incorrect manner by many. Some act like it's supposed to be something that trumps elite one-way play, which is inaccurate, it's all about aggregate impact. Khris Middleton is a better "two-way player" than James Harden, but it's pretty obvious who is the better player.

I have to disagree about the points you made with regard to Kawhi and Steph's defense, however. Steph is hid on defense by the Warriors' excellent defensive personnel, it is very apparent in their schemes. As for Kawhi, while he isn't the defender he used to be on a consistent basis, he is still one of the better ones when required. He clearly played while injured this postseason and had a ton of weight on his shoulders on offense, not fair to expect him to be what he could be on defense.

Kawhi is also hid defensively. Why do you think he guards green and iggy? Even vs the bucks his defence on giannis was only possible due to the help of 4 man walls preventing him from getting blitzed. All but the very best defenders get their weaknesses hidden and their strengths amplified. Curry is fast and has great hands positioning, so he's used as the first line of defence with help he can force attackers to and is used as the primary defender vs the quick. Curry can't protect the rim so he's kept at the perimeter. Kawhi is slower, so he's kept away from smalls or quick three point shooters like klay and curry. He's strong so they put players to each of his side and let him be the focal point of a wall for stronger but slower players. His awareness isn't great but he has a long reach so they let him roam while the others switch as an x factor in defensive possesions.

Being "hid" doesn't make you a bad defender.
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Re: We really should stop calling everyone a 

Post#87 » by freethedevil » Sat Jun 15, 2019 9:31 pm

CobyWhiteDaGoat wrote:
clyde21 wrote:
CobyWhiteDaGoat wrote:If the only qualification to be a two-way player is to be an average defender then most of the league would be two-way players

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yes, that's why it's a stupid designation.
Which is why the qualification to be a two-way player should be to be a good defender.

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Your definition of "good", doesn't have weaknesses that need to be hid, doesn't apply to either of kd, kawhi, curry, or lebron(now that he's old). therefore none of them should be called two way players.
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Re: We really should stop calling everyone a "Two Way Player" 

Post#88 » by clyde21 » Sat Jun 15, 2019 9:33 pm

Andre Roberson is arguably the best pound for pound defender in the entire league

James Harden is arguably the best pound for pound offensive player int he entire league

both are probably the opposite of each other

which is getting the max contracts?

exactly, that's why this whole 'two-way player' thing is a farce. it assumes it's 50/50.
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Re: We really should stop calling everyone a "Two Way Player" 

Post#89 » by SlowPaced » Sat Jun 15, 2019 9:36 pm

freethedevil wrote:
SlowPaced wrote:Two-way player is a legitimate term, it's just being used in an incorrect manner by many. Some act like it's supposed to be something that trumps elite one-way play, which is inaccurate, it's all about aggregate impact. Khris Middleton is a better "two-way player" than James Harden, but it's pretty obvious who is the better player.

I have to disagree about the points you made with regard to Kawhi and Steph's defense, however. Steph is hid on defense by the Warriors' excellent defensive personnel, it is very apparent in their schemes. As for Kawhi, while he isn't the defender he used to be on a consistent basis, he is still one of the better ones when required. He clearly played while injured this postseason and had a ton of weight on his shoulders on offense, not fair to expect him to be what he could be on defense.

Kawhi is also hid defensively. Why do you think he guards green and iggy? Even vs the bucks his defence on giannis was only possible due to the help of 4 man walls preventing him from getting blitzed. All but the very best defenders get their weaknesses hidden and their strengths amplified. Curry is fast and has great hands positioning, so he's used as the first line of defence with help he can force attackers to and is used as the primary defender vs the quick. Curry can't protect the rim so he's kept at the perimeter. Kawhi is slower, so he's kept away from smalls or quick three point shooters like klay and curry. He's strong so they put players to each of his side and let him be the focal point of a wall for stronger but slower players. His awareness isn't great but he has a long reach so they let him roam while the others switch as an x factor in defensive possesions.

Being "hid" doesn't make you a bad defender.


What you provide as evidence for Kawhi being hid isn't "being hid". It's managing the dynamic between offensive and defensive loads with regard to his health status. Kawhi doesn't need to be hid on defense when he's 100% health-wise and never does any team make it a point of emphasis to attack Kawhi when he's 100% health-wise like they do with Curry. Kawhi is in the exact same situation LeBron was in during his second Cleveland tenure both in terms of the aforementioned dynamic and the roles they occupy on defense. The differences being that Kawhi was nowhere near being 100% health-wise, and Raptors were clearly far better and more flexible defensively.

You are grossly overstating the impact of what Curry does as a defender by the way. It's stuff practically every single quick point guard who is willing to compete on defense and doesn't have terrible awareness does. It's a far cry from compensating for his weaknesses, especially within the context of the best player in the league conversation.
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Re: We really should stop calling everyone a "Two Way Player" 

Post#90 » by freethedevil » Sat Jun 15, 2019 9:40 pm

SlowPaced wrote:
freethedevil wrote:
SlowPaced wrote:Two-way player is a legitimate term, it's just being used in an incorrect manner by many. Some act like it's supposed to be something that trumps elite one-way play, which is inaccurate, it's all about aggregate impact. Khris Middleton is a better "two-way player" than James Harden, but it's pretty obvious who is the better player.

I have to disagree about the points you made with regard to Kawhi and Steph's defense, however. Steph is hid on defense by the Warriors' excellent defensive personnel, it is very apparent in their schemes. As for Kawhi, while he isn't the defender he used to be on a consistent basis, he is still one of the better ones when required. He clearly played while injured this postseason and had a ton of weight on his shoulders on offense, not fair to expect him to be what he could be on defense.

Kawhi is also hid defensively. Why do you think he guards green and iggy? Even vs the bucks his defence on giannis was only possible due to the help of 4 man walls preventing him from getting blitzed. All but the very best defenders get their weaknesses hidden and their strengths amplified. Curry is fast and has great hands positioning, so he's used as the first line of defence with help he can force attackers to and is used as the primary defender vs the quick. Curry can't protect the rim so he's kept at the perimeter. Kawhi is slower, so he's kept away from smalls or quick three point shooters like klay and curry. He's strong so they put players to each of his side and let him be the focal point of a wall for stronger but slower players. His awareness isn't great but he has a long reach so they let him roam while the others switch as an x factor in defensive possesions.

Being "hid" doesn't make you a bad defender.


What you provide as evidence for Kawhi being hid isn't "being hid". It's managing the dynamic between offensive and defensive loads with regard to his health status. Kawhi doesn't need to be hid on defense when he's 100% health-wise and never does any team make it a point of emphasis to attack Kawhi when he's 100% health-wise like they do with Curry. Kawhi is in the exact same situation LeBron was in during his second Cleveland tenure both in terms of the aforementioned dynamic and the roles they occupy on defense. The differences being that Kawhi was nowhere near being 100% health-wise, and Raptors were clearly far better and more flexible defensively.

Absolutely absurd claim. Lebron in his second stint was cleveland's primary rim protector as well as a deterrent to drives. Kawhi grades out as the raptors 6th most impactful defender, and was left on the warriors weakest shooters. Lowry and Vanvleet were for more crucuial for the raptors d. And yes, he carries an extrme offensive load. Curry carried a bigger one. And I don't know why you're mentioning that kawhi was injured. Health effects your value to a team.
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Re: We really should stop calling everyone a "Two Way Player" 

Post#91 » by Dadouv47 » Sat Jun 15, 2019 9:41 pm

Everyone? We don't call so many players ''two way players''.

My list :
Kawhi
Klay
PG13
Giannis
Lebron (well maybe not anymore)
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Re: We really should stop calling everyone a "Two Way Player" 

Post#92 » by SlowPaced » Sat Jun 15, 2019 9:42 pm

freethedevil wrote:
SlowPaced wrote:
freethedevil wrote:Kawhi is also hid defensively. Why do you think he guards green and iggy? Even vs the bucks his defence on giannis was only possible due to the help of 4 man walls preventing him from getting blitzed. All but the very best defenders get their weaknesses hidden and their strengths amplified. Curry is fast and has great hands positioning, so he's used as the first line of defence with help he can force attackers to and is used as the primary defender vs the quick. Curry can't protect the rim so he's kept at the perimeter. Kawhi is slower, so he's kept away from smalls or quick three point shooters like klay and curry. He's strong so they put players to each of his side and let him be the focal point of a wall for stronger but slower players. His awareness isn't great but he has a long reach so they let him roam while the others switch as an x factor in defensive possesions.

Being "hid" doesn't make you a bad defender.


What you provide as evidence for Kawhi being hid isn't "being hid". It's managing the dynamic between offensive and defensive loads with regard to his health status. Kawhi doesn't need to be hid on defense when he's 100% health-wise and never does any team make it a point of emphasis to attack Kawhi when he's 100% health-wise like they do with Curry. Kawhi is in the exact same situation LeBron was in during his second Cleveland tenure both in terms of the aforementioned dynamic and the roles they occupy on defense. The differences being that Kawhi was nowhere near being 100% health-wise, and Raptors were clearly far better and more flexible defensively.

Absolutely absurd claim. Lebron in his second stint was cleveland's primary rim protector as well as a deterrent to drives. Kawhi grades out as the raptors 6th most impactful defender. He carries an extrme offensive load? Curry carried a bigger one. And I don't know why you're mentioning that kawhi was injured. Health effects your value to a team.


Did you bother to read the sentence that followed the LeBron comparison?

Health also effects your judgement of a player's capabilities, clearly, and makes you completely forget what they are capable of doing when healthy. If you are discussing a player's performance for a specific time frame, then such evaluation becomes valid, but in vacuum? You have to take pre-injury evidence into account (unless it's a career altering injury).
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Re: We really should stop calling everyone a "Two Way Player" 

Post#93 » by freethedevil » Sat Jun 15, 2019 9:44 pm

SlowPaced wrote:
freethedevil wrote:
SlowPaced wrote:
What you provide as evidence for Kawhi being hid isn't "being hid". It's managing the dynamic between offensive and defensive loads with regard to his health status. Kawhi doesn't need to be hid on defense when he's 100% health-wise and never does any team make it a point of emphasis to attack Kawhi when he's 100% health-wise like they do with Curry. Kawhi is in the exact same situation LeBron was in during his second Cleveland tenure both in terms of the aforementioned dynamic and the roles they occupy on defense. The differences being that Kawhi was nowhere near being 100% health-wise, and Raptors were clearly far better and more flexible defensively.

Absolutely absurd claim. Lebron in his second stint was cleveland's primary rim protector as well as a deterrent to drives. Kawhi grades out as the raptors 6th most impactful defender. He carries an extrme offensive load? Curry carried a bigger one. And I don't know why you're mentioning that kawhi was injured. Health effects your value to a team.


Did you bother to read the sentence that followed the LeBron comparison?

Health also effects your judgement of a player's capabilities, clearly, and makes you completely forget what they are capable of doing when healthy.

Kawhi's "health" is a constant issue that will always affect his career.

And yes, I read your response and i edited to address it. Penalizing curry when he carried a larger offensive load than kawhi and then excusing kawhi because "he's needed for offense" is ridiculous.
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Re: We really should stop calling everyone a "Two Way Player" 

Post#94 » by SlowPaced » Sat Jun 15, 2019 9:50 pm

freethedevil wrote:
SlowPaced wrote:
freethedevil wrote:Absolutely absurd claim. Lebron in his second stint was cleveland's primary rim protector as well as a deterrent to drives. Kawhi grades out as the raptors 6th most impactful defender. He carries an extrme offensive load? Curry carried a bigger one. And I don't know why you're mentioning that kawhi was injured. Health effects your value to a team.


Did you bother to read the sentence that followed the LeBron comparison?

Health also effects your judgement of a player's capabilities, clearly, and makes you completely forget what they are capable of doing when healthy.

Kawhi's "health" is a constant issue that will always affect his career.

And yes, I read your response and i edited to address it. Penalizing curry when he carried a larger offensive load than kawhi and then excusing kawhi because "he's needed for offense" is ridiculous.


Kawhi's health is a matter of speculation, next year will be more telling in that regard in my opinion.

I didn't excuse Kawhi because of a heavier offense load. It's the combined effect of playing through injuries AND having such a heavy offensive load. I was very clear about this, or so I thought.

You didn't really address it with your edit either. You are judging Kawhi's defensive capabilities based on what he was able to do playing through injuries and carrying a heavy load on offense at the same time. It was very clear from the Raptors' schemes that they'd rather use Kawhi as a catch-all free-roaming defender like LeBron was used with the Cavs, because they kept going at it when they needed increased defensive intensity. Kawhi doesn't protect the rim like LeBron, but he's very much a deterrence for drives and does his job on the floor as opposed to the air, the same way Andre Iguodala does.
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Re: We really should stop calling everyone a "Two Way Player" 

Post#95 » by Sane » Sat Jun 15, 2019 9:56 pm

You argument is interesting and informative OP, but a few years late. Anchors are dropping dramatically in importance, and the ability of a player to guard positions 1 through 5 is rising dramatically in parallel. The anchor still exists and is still helpful, but it's no longer the epicenter of the defensive solar system.

What I don't like about the 2-way player thing: it's a totally stupid categorization. Everyone is a two way player. I don't care about the balance between the two ways. I don't care if you're a 50 on defense and a 50 on offense vs a player who is a 0 on defense a 100 on offense. It's the same impact on the court. Give me total impact. James Harden is a better two way player than Jimmy Butler because although Butler is a better defender, Harden's offensive advantage is so much bigger, and that's why it shows up in wins, advanced and simple stats to a staggering degree.

The best 2-way player in the game is the one with the highest impact, why anyone would care about the balance is beyond me. You can always hide a bad defender (see: Curry, Harden, Lebron, etc.)
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Re: We really should stop calling everyone a 

Post#96 » by CobyWhiteDaGoat » Sat Jun 15, 2019 10:25 pm

freethedevil wrote:
CobyWhiteDaGoat wrote:
clyde21 wrote:
yes, that's why it's a stupid designation.
Which is why the qualification to be a two-way player should be to be a good defender.

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Your definition of "good", doesn't have weaknesses that need to be hid, doesn't apply to either of kd, kawhi, curry, or lebron(now that he's old). therefore none of them should be called two way players.
That's not my definition of good

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Re: We really should stop calling everyone a "Two Way Player" 

Post#97 » by old skool » Sat Jun 15, 2019 10:57 pm

This is great. Next we can debate whatever means to be "long". Then what makes a "savvy defender".

"Game changer".

"Players coach".

"Role player".

"Court vision"


Can't wait.

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Re: We really should stop calling everyone a "Two Way Player" 

Post#98 » by NZB2323 » Sat Jun 15, 2019 11:04 pm

Richard Miller wrote:Good point. How many 2-way players would anyone take before Harden or Curry?


Lebron
Durant
Kawhi
Giannis
Anthony Davis
Embiid
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Re: We really should stop calling everyone a "Two Way Player" 

Post#99 » by druggas » Sat Jun 15, 2019 11:23 pm

Boy, if people here think that Curry is being slighted, they go nuts.

Get used to it.
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Re: We really should stop calling everyone a "Two Way Player" 

Post#100 » by Plain Old Josh » Sat Jun 15, 2019 11:47 pm

Dadouv47 wrote:Everyone? We don't call so many players ''two way players''.

My list :
Kawhi
Klay
PG13
Giannis
Lebron (well maybe not anymore)


I'd definitely throw Anthony Davis and Embiid on that list.

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