Woj: AD to LA for 3 1sts, Ingram, Ball, Hart

[Crives]

Yes we went from 4+Ingram+Ball as a weak package to saying you guys got killed due to including most of your youth as well as involving most of your 1sts moving forward. I don't understand why it is hard to see why our stance on the overall package changed while our valuation of the individual parts did not. Though maybe an overpay, it still sets LAL for a potential title run so I'm not saying it won't be worth it. Those picks could end up being late and the swaps not exercised so only time will tell who won this deal (likely both teams).

Most of our youth? The only other young guy we threw in was Josh Hart. I mean, the only other young guys the Lakers had were Kyle Kuzma, Mo Wagner, and Isaac Bonga. The latter two have no value at all. If Ingram/Ball/4 is a weak package, I'm not sure how adding Hart really changes that unless you think Hart is more than a good 3&D wing. The picks are the biggest question mark, which is why I think it's asinine to say the Lakers got killed until we see how the Lakers use their cap space this offseason. IF the Lakers are able to land a premier FA to pair with LeBron and Anthony Davis, those picks are borderline worthless. And one title is worth futility for the next decade. You think Toronto has any regrets about making the Kawhi Leonard trade?

Toronto didn't really give up a ton for Kawhi.

And going from Ingram/Ball/4 to a package that also includes Hart, two additional 1sts, and two pick swaps with some coming after LBJ's contract ends is a pretty size-able jump.

Definitely. Those future picks might have more value then Lonzo/4/BI.

[Karmaloop]

Sure. But you're probably not in a position to call people out for undervaluing a [completely different] trade package then, are you? My view is that this is a mild overpay for the Lakers; I like Lebron and I hate the Lakers, so it's perfect for me personally. They go all in to land Lebron an extra title or two, and then try to keep things afloat without draft picks after he's retired.

Because I'm not afraid to find it amusing to call people out on their ridiculous hypocrisy? We're talking about picks 3-6 years in the future, yet some on this board (and other forums) are ready to claim the Pelicans the big winners based on what? Some preconceived notion that the Lakers just handed future #1 overall picks that are the next LeBron James or Zion Williamson? The fact is we still have a TON of offseason left to go. For all that we know, Kawhi Leonard (or another max FA) could sign with the Lakers and how much of that value from those draft picks disappear? That's my biggest knock on the T&T forum. Draft picks are wildly overvalued here.

[Prospect Dong]

Josh Hart might be the most intriguing baby Laker. From Feb when he finally started getting starter minutes to the end of the season, he averaged 15 points 8 rebounds (in about 33 minutes). It's the right value to move up to 5 but I don't love weirdo Doncic more than the weirdo PG we already have. Hart has the makings of Jrue Holiday. For the classic folks he reminds me a little of Mitch Richmond. A good two player that can guard 1-3. A championship piece. Wouldn't trade him for an unknown commodity.

https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1710651&hilit=hart

That's not Karmaloop, to be fair, but it sure hasn't aged well.

[Karmaloop]

Toronto didn't really give up a ton for Kawhi.

And going from Ingram/Ball/4 to a package that also includes Hart, two additional 1sts, and two pick swaps with some coming after LBJ's contract ends is a pretty size-able jump.

What were the offers for Kawhi again? I believe the Lakers' package didn't include Brandon Ingram, and Pop wanted nothing to do with Lonzo Ball and LaVar Ball. I believe the C's offer a pick-based package that didn't include Jaylen Brown or Jayson Tatum. I can't imagine that any other team offered anything decent if the Raptors' package won out.

It only seems like a sizeable jump if you believe both franchises' fortune flip. If the Lakers become a dumpster fire and the Pelicans manage to blossom, yes that's setting up the Pelicans forever. If the Lakers manage to convey their cap space into a 3rd star and the Pelicans' young guys flounder, the Lakers are the big winners here. The reality is probably somewhere in the middle.

[Prospect Dong]

Sure. But you're probably not in a position to call people out for undervaluing a [completely different] trade package then, are you? My view is that this is a mild overpay for the Lakers; I like Lebron and I hate the Lakers, so it's perfect for me personally. They go all in to land Lebron an extra title or two, and then try to keep things afloat without draft picks after he's retired.

Because I'm not afraid to find it amusing to call people out on their ridiculous hypocrisy? We're talking about picks 3-6 years in the future, yet some on this board (and other forums) are ready to claim the Pelicans the big winners based on what? Some preconceived notion that the Lakers just handed future #1 overall picks that are the next LeBron James or Zion Williamson? The fact is we still have a TON of offseason left to go. For all that we know, Kawhi Leonard (or another max FA) could sign with the Lakers and how much of that value from those draft picks disappear? That's my biggest knock on the T&T forum. Draft picks are wildly overvalued here.

If there's one thing we've learned, it's that a trade sending out unprotected picks years in the future is exactly as valuable as a trade not sending them out. Personally, I just stop reading when I see the words "future 1sts".

This trade might work out great for the lakers. It might well be a reasonable gamble. What's not really on the table, though, is "you all got the value so wrong because you said a package that excluded half the actual trade package wasn't enough for Davis!". We now have pretty good evidence that #4, Ball+Ingram wasn't enough, you seem to be arguing as if you just proved the reverse.

[VCfor3]

If you had proposed the final package, everyone would have jumped to point out how teams have learned from Brooklyn's previous gamble and don't give up a bunch of unprotected future 1sts and pick swaps anymore.

Ingram, Kuzma, Ball, 4, 2020 or 2021 1st was what I thought the package was going to end up being.

And those Nets' picks turned out to be what exactly? James Young (2014), Jaylen Brown (2016), Markelle Fultz (2017), and Colin Sexton (2018). I keep hearing about how big of a mistake the Lakers made giving up those picks, but I keep coming back to the conclusion that some are operating under the assumption that the Lakers are handing the Pelicans a future franchise player. Odds are the exact opposite is more likely to happen. Take out the pick swaps and one of the future FRPs, and that is what I thought he deal would end up being as well.

Brown, Tatum, Sexton, 14 this draft. That's a ton depending on how you view those players. I think the odds of the Lakers pick package being anyone close to that even including #4 this draft is pretty unlikely, but it still comes at a time when the Lakers could very well be wanting to rebuild. It helps give NOP a lot of extra chances at finding themselves a franchise player.

Again, I don't hate the gamble by LAL and think that this creates the best chance they have at a title over the next decade relative to any other alternatives. You can still say they overpaid though. Part of the overpayment is likely to wait to do the deal at the end of July. That was probably a pick swap in and of itself.

[jazzfan1971]

I voted Both (or even trade), then I read page 7? where it says all those picks are unprotected and the two unprotected swaps. Holy Moley.

I think the Pels won. I also think the league won. If there was one spot I wanted Davis to land it was LA. Lebron is too old to build a dynasty with, so, the Lakers will at best have a 2-3 year window. And that first year is probably pretty closed as they won't be able to fill in with much depth the first year. So, you've got 1-2 real years of contention. And that's if injuries stay away.

Even if they get another guy like a Kyrie I'm not too worried. That's worse, obviously, but they'll still be quite thin with all the pieces they moved. Now if they get something like a KG or Kawhi things do get scary, but I'm not worried about that just yet.

Long story short, I think the Lakers just went all in for a 1-2 year window and they'll be back into rebuild mode soon after.

[Prospect Dong]

If you had proposed the final package, everyone would have jumped to point out how teams have learned from Brooklyn's previous gamble and don't give up a bunch of unprotected future 1sts and pick swaps anymore.

Ingram, Kuzma, Ball, 4, 2020 or 2021 1st was what I thought the package was going to end up being.

And those Nets' picks turned out to be what exactly? James Young (2014), Jaylen Brown (2016), Markelle Fultz (2017), and Colin Sexton (2018). I keep hearing about how big of a mistake the Lakers made giving up those picks, but I keep coming back to the conclusion that some are operating under the assumption that the Lakers are handing the Pelicans a future franchise player. Odds are the exact opposite is more likely to happen. Take out the pick swaps and one of the future FRPs, and that is what I thought he deal would end up being as well.

That sounds like the sort of thing you might have said previously, if you enjoy discussing Anthony Davis trades on realgm. Did you say it before?

[Karmaloop]

If there's one thing we've learned, it's that a trade sending out unprotected picks years in the future is exactly as valuable as a trade not sending them out. Personally, I just stop reading when I see the words "future 1sts".

This trade might work out great for the lakers. It might well be a reasonable gamble. What's not really on the table, though, is "you all got the value so wrong because you said a package that excluded half the actual trade package wasn't enough for Davis!". We now have pretty good evidence that #4, Ball+Ingram wasn't enough, you seem to be arguing as if you just proved the reverse.

Picks are only as valuable as long as the franchise they're coming from is in jeopardy of being really bad. We still have an ENTIRE offseason to go in which the Lakers have max cap space to play with. If the Lakers sign Kyrie Irving or Kawhi Leonard, does anyone think the Lakers give a damn about a pick in 2025? Hell no. Especially if that ends up with the Lakers winning a championship. LIS, this board (as a whole) ridiculously overrates draft picks. There's a handful of players in the NBA that can alter the landscape in the NBA.

[Crives]

Sure. But you're probably not in a position to call people out for undervaluing a [completely different] trade package then, are you? My view is that this is a mild overpay for the Lakers; I like Lebron and I hate the Lakers, so it's perfect for me personally. They go all in to land Lebron an extra title or two, and then try to keep things afloat without draft picks after he's retired.

Because I'm not afraid to find it amusing to call people out on their ridiculous hypocrisy? We're talking about picks 3-6 years in the future, yet some on this board (and other forums) are ready to claim the Pelicans the big winners based on what? Some preconceived notion that the Lakers just handed future #1 overall picks that are the next LeBron James or Zion Williamson? The fact is we still have a TON of offseason left to go. For all that we know, Kawhi Leonard (or another max FA) could sign with the Lakers and how much of that value from those draft picks disappear? That's my biggest knock on the T&T forum. Draft picks are wildly overvalued here.

I’m not sure anyone is calling the pelicans the clear winners. Now it’s a gutsy move that could definitely work out for them instead of the highway robbery offer of just Kuz/4/Ball, which was pissing off fans from the other 29 other teams. Lakers are in big trouble if AD or Lebron get injured.

I’m really interested to see what the Lakers do in FA. Lakers shouldn’t plan on Lebron being a regular season mvp and should try to follow what Kawhi did last season (resting many many games) Which means Lakers could have a hard time making the playoffs next year if they don’t maximize that 32m. AD/Lebron will be good in the playoffs... but they need to get to the playoffs with a healthy Lebron as he ages.

[VCfor3]

Maybe you have some quotes where you suggested you would be happy paying something like this price for Davis?

I don't. But I'm more than willing to admit there's a TON of inherent risk involved in this transaction. If they can't find that 3rd star or put the right combination of role players around LBJ/AD, this could blow up in the Lakers face. Would I have liked the Lakers to give up less? Absolutely, but I'm also not stupid enough to think the Lakers were better off without Anthony Davis.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't see people really saying that the Lakers shouldn't have done the trade. They should have and they did. They needed more than LBJ to have a shot at attracting other players and making a true run at the title. AD was their best option and they did what was necessary to get him. It still was a big package to give up for him and a good bit more than most expected. I voted both teams won for that it's worth prior to know the additional details about the picks. I'd vote NOP won this by a little if I had to vote again. LAL still won, NOP just won more. It was a good trade for both teams.

[TGW]

Oh please. No one was proposing Ball + Ingram + Hart + three firsts. NO ONE.

This was a gross overpay.

If this same package was offered prior to the deal breaking, we wouldn't have heard about how great the Pelicans did. We'd be hearing about how the Lakers' young players were garbage and the future picks were worthless.

Link to this supposed nonsense?

[Karmaloop]

Link to this supposed nonsense?

To the Lakers' young guys being garbage? Take your head out of the sand.

[kobe_vs_jordan]

Read on Twitter

[bleeds_purple]

It really amuses me when people take such hyperbolic positions on things. How hard is it to accept that its a sensible deal for both teams. The Lakers get their guy and obviously they were all in the moment they signed LeBron. If they win a title do you think the franchise or the fans will give two **** if they miss out on a few picks in the middle of next decade? The Pelicans set themselves up for the future. Both teams are better off than before.

[zimpy27]

If we learned anything from the nets situation, losing picks isn't a death sentence. You can still come out on top of the market you're in is attractive.

[Cappy_Smurf]

I've seen 3 different reports as to the details of the picks involved, so I'd have a hard time saying for sure without knowing exactly what was involved.

However, my first reaction is that the Lakers just traded a handful of mediocrity for a legit star who really isn't even a gamble to re-sign there. Pels should have insisted on Kuzma replacing Hart, and even then I'd still be meh.

As for the picks, they got a #4 in a draft where they are absolutely looking to move it because they aren't excited about anyone available there. As for the rest of the picks, they will likely all be late firsts and the pick swaps won't matter at all most likely.

Basically, the pels have to cross their fingers and hope for multiple injuries if they have any hope of getting any real value out of any of those picks. Even with Lebron aging, they are still likely to have AD and another big name. I just don't like the odds of any of these assets panning out tbh.

Maybe I'll change my mind when the exact details come out and depending on what they do with that #4 pick, but right now it looks like a couple of dimes and a handful of nickels and pennies for a dollar.

[Dr Positivity]

How much of a lose lose is the Deng stretch? He gave up 7.5 million (WHOOPS), and Lakers now have to eat crucial 5 million the next two years instead of dumping the expiring on Pelicans.

[Pillendreher]

The fact is the Lakers have a trio of LeBron/Kuzma/AD

Did you seriously just include lightskin Channing Frye with those two guys?

There's a reason why the Lakers are the NBA favorites.

Who declared them "favorites"? Do you know how betting odds work?

[WizardsWorld]

Now watch AD leave as a free agent next summer

I would go from hating him to loving him instantly if he did that.... however his agent lebron won't allow it.