We really should stop calling everyone a "Two Way Player"

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binjumper
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Re: We really should stop calling everyone a "Two Way Player" 

Post#101 » by binjumper » Sat Jun 15, 2019 11:51 pm

Plain Old Josh wrote:
Dadouv47 wrote:Everyone? We don't call so many players ''two way players''.

My list :
Kawhi
Klay
PG13
Giannis
Lebron (well maybe not anymore)


I'd definitely throw Anthony Davis and Embiid on that list.


AD might get hurt if you throw him.
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Re: We really should stop calling everyone a "Two Way Player" 

Post#102 » by MrSparkle » Sat Jun 15, 2019 11:51 pm

Raptors
Warriors
Bucks
Rockets
Sixers
Celtics

Teams full of 2-way players.

And guess what? They're really good teams, even if they flake out before the conference finals.

It's basically on GMs if they load up on 1-way players and then scratch their heads when they're struggling to make playoffs, let alone round 2.

(*COUGH* GarPax)

If you've got more than 1 liability on each end (with exceptions for really exceptional 1-way players), then your team is at a constant disadvantage. 2 offensive liabilities make it really easy to clamp spacing, and 2 defensive liabilities make it really easy to exploit with PnR or switches.

That's why for the life of me, I don't get lottery picks like McDermott, Valentine or Dunn.
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Re: We really should stop calling everyone a "Two Way Player" 

Post#103 » by Plain Old Josh » Sun Jun 16, 2019 12:13 am

druggas wrote:
shza wrote:Good post OP. The praise for Kawhi’s defensive quality is purely based on past rep.

Wrong.

Can't believe there are still some people that question Kawhi's ability on D. No matter what some advanced stat says, we all seen what happened to the Greek Freak when Kawhi became his primary defender in games 3, 4, 5, and 6.
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The Bucks might be champs right now if that change doesn't happen. It was one of the most impactful coaching decisions of the playoffs.
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Re: We really should stop calling everyone a "Two Way Player" 

Post#104 » by Vayuputra » Sun Jun 16, 2019 7:01 am

I think it comes down to how it has been used in the case of Kawhi to cover up for his lack of playmaking ability. Kawhi used to have a great impact on the defensive end of the floor in 13,14,15 and even to an extent 16 when he was regularly guarding the opposing team's best players. Still there was a noticeable drop on the defensive end in 16 and especially 17 when his usage rate on offense skyrocketed and he would only be guarding the best players in clutch situations and even then he would get screened out of the play. Since getting injured he has definitely lost a step, and with the offensive load he doesn't have the energy to lock someone up or slow down a superstar like in his prime years. I have noticed multiple Harden-esque lapses from Kawhi this year. I think from now on defensively his impact will be mostly be seen in the passing lanes and occasionally on help defense owing to his length and big hands. The only place where I see him improving is in Rebounding, he can be an even better Rebounder imo going forward.
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Re: We really should stop calling everyone a "Two Way Player" 

Post#105 » by Fantastik_Goat » Sun Jun 16, 2019 7:07 am

We don’t call everyone a two way player. Nobody calls Steph Curry a two way player.
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Re: We really should stop calling everyone a "Two Way Player" 

Post#106 » by Jables » Sun Jun 16, 2019 7:10 am

Saying LeBron or Jordan aren't two way players is where you lost me, sorry that's nonsense. In Rose's MVP year he shot 6.3% guarded by LeBron in the playoffs when he was mad about being snubbed for MVP, Giannis and Embiid aren't close to as scary as LeBron or Jordan could be on D.

That's redefining two way player to being serious on D in irrelevant games so that their defensive stats look good, the best defenders don't always bring it every game they save it for the big ones.
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Re: We really should stop calling everyone a "Two Way Player" 

Post#107 » by sca » Sun Jun 16, 2019 7:32 am

SlowPaced wrote:
freethedevil wrote:
SlowPaced wrote:
What you provide as evidence for Kawhi being hid isn't "being hid". It's managing the dynamic between offensive and defensive loads with regard to his health status. Kawhi doesn't need to be hid on defense when he's 100% health-wise and never does any team make it a point of emphasis to attack Kawhi when he's 100% health-wise like they do with Curry. Kawhi is in the exact same situation LeBron was in during his second Cleveland tenure both in terms of the aforementioned dynamic and the roles they occupy on defense. The differences being that Kawhi was nowhere near being 100% health-wise, and Raptors were clearly far better and more flexible defensively.

Absolutely absurd claim. Lebron in his second stint was cleveland's primary rim protector as well as a deterrent to drives. Kawhi grades out as the raptors 6th most impactful defender. He carries an extrme offensive load? Curry carried a bigger one. And I don't know why you're mentioning that kawhi was injured. Health effects your value to a team.


Did you bother to read the sentence that followed the LeBron comparison?

Health also effects your judgement of a player's capabilities, clearly, and makes you completely forget what they are capable of doing when healthy. If you are discussing a player's performance for a specific time frame, then such evaluation becomes valid, but in vacuum? You have to take pre-injury evidence into account (unless it's a career altering injury).

Don’t bother arguing with him. He’s basically a mouthpiece for PIPM. He’s just parroting whatever PIPM tells him, because it’s the ultimate stat that everyone should bow down to and worship. If you’re questioning any conclusion that’s drawn from PIPM, then you’re a filthy casual who lacks the knowledge of deeper basketball.

All hail PIPM! :bowdown:
RaptorsLife on Mon Jun 11, 2018 7:45 pm wrote:
nabbs wrote:
RaptorsLife wrote:Nurse can’t be our head coach

Why not? Who is your choice?

Def Messina

RaptorsLife on Tue Jun 12, 2018 6:31 pm wrote:Messina sucks
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Re: We really should stop calling everyone a "Two Way Player" 

Post#108 » by freethedevil » Sun Jun 16, 2019 8:09 pm

Plain Old Josh wrote:
druggas wrote:
shza wrote:Good post OP. The praise for Kawhi’s defensive quality is purely based on past rep.

Wrong.

Can't believe there are still some people that question Kawhi's ability on D. No matter what some advanced stat says, we all seen what happened to the Greek Freak when Kawhi became his primary defender in games 3, 4, 5, and 6.
[

We saw Kahwi successfully force giannis into help with a 4 man wall assisting him for three games. If that proves he's one of the best d's in the league, then you'd have to concede that fro curry being able to force lebron into draymond green in 2016, or forcing harden into klay in 2019.

As usual the crowd who lols at the use of advance stats also has an lol worthy use of the eye test.
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Re: We really should stop calling everyone a "Two Way Player" 

Post#109 » by freethedevil » Sun Jun 16, 2019 8:12 pm

sca wrote:
SlowPaced wrote:
freethedevil wrote: If you’re questioning any conclusion that’s drawn from PIPM, then you’re a filthy casual who lacks the knowledge of deeper basketball.

All hail PIPM! :bowdown:

I question conclusions which don't have supporting evidence.

PIPM is a highly predictive measurement of impact. A x/x/x stat line doesn't measure anything. :lol:
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Re: We really should stop calling everyone a "Two Way Player" 

Post#110 » by freethedevil » Sun Jun 16, 2019 8:15 pm

Jables wrote:Saying LeBron or Jordan aren't two way players is where you lost me, sorry that's nonsense. In Rose's MVP year he shot 6.3% guarded by LeBron in the playoffs when he was mad about being snubbed for MVP, Giannis and Embiid aren't close to as scary as LeBron or Jordan could be on D.

That's redefining two way player to being serious on D in irrelevant games so that their defensive stats look good, the best defenders don't always bring it every game they save it for the big ones.

:lol: :lol:

Cherrypicking the man defence on a single player is not how you measure impact. I also never said lebron and mj "weren't" two players, I said their defensive impact as all time great perimeter defenders wasn't close to the impact of the best defenders ever. If you think mj or lebron were close to the likes of garnett and duncan defensively, you're a clown. :lol:
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Re: We really should stop calling everyone a "Two Way Player" 

Post#111 » by Dnt hate » Sun Jun 16, 2019 8:27 pm

Ughhh another delusional curry fan
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Re: We really should stop calling everyone a "Two Way Player" 

Post#112 » by freethedevil » Sun Jun 16, 2019 10:58 pm

Dnt hate wrote:Ughhh another delusional curry fan

plz explain

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