Celtics General Offseason Thread, 2019 – Welcome to the Party, #2

[Andrew McCeltic]

Any cap/rules experts know.

1) how much TPE could Kyrie generate
2) does that hard cap Nets
3) how much do Nets have to clear to sign both Kyrie and KD

1. Kyrie counts as last year's salary for us outgoing, ~$20M. If you only take a pick back, we get that full amount. Any players salary coming back is subtracted.
2. Yes, any team receiving an S&T player is hard capped at the apron.
3. Basically everyone on their team if they keep DLo's cap hold (less than his max). If they renounce DLo, it's pretty easy. They only need to clear another $5Mish.

This tool is super handy: http://www.shamsports.com/capulator
It lets you play with renouncing guys, seeing cap space, etc.
The trades don't "check", though, so it lets you do illegal things.

They could also just unload Joe Harris or Dinwiddie..

But if they want Tobias Harris and Kyrie outright, they lose Russell, Ed Davis, RHJ, Shabazz Napier, Treveon Graham - plus they're already renouncing Jared Dudley and DeMarre Carroll..

Crabbe played 26 minutes a game for them last year, Russell 30, Carroll 25, RHJ 20, Dudley 20, Graham 20, Davis 17 and Napier 17..

You can see what the minutes distribution would become for them, but.. Kyrie and Harris into cap space is going to significantly change the character of that team. They overachieved last year with depth and execution, and Kyrie/Levert/Joe Harris/Tobias Harris/Jarrett Allen, with Dinwiddie, Prince, Musa, Kurucs and three vet minimum players off the bench - it's not bad, but it risks the chemistry. they had last year, they may not want to lose all those players..

[bucknersrevenge]

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[KamikazeK]

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Surely rubio could find a starting spot somewhere instead of coming here to be Rozier the basketball God's backup.

[bucknersrevenge]

Read on Twitter

Surely rubio could find a starting spot somewhere instead of coming here to be Rozier the basketball God's backup.

I was just posting on another thread about your very point. I think so long as no team goes nuts and offers Rozier the whole mansion, we're going to resign him. Given the year he just had and the mix of suitable other options, I'm guessing he's capped out at 13M per and if that's the case he returns and no Rubio. Basically Rubio is insurance if some GM loses his mind.

[jfs1000d]

A lot of people undervalue or forget about Brown and Tatum when criticizing Ainge for “not doing anything” with all his assets. You know how many teams would dream to have those two guys on their team. Those two could just as easily be Kris Dunn and Markelle Fultz. We’re still sitting pretty, and Kyrie mucking things up to the degree he has is hard to put on Danny.

There are only two recent things that I think are worth questioning: his decisions to not trade Rozier and Morris either last off-season or at the trade deadline. But without knowing the market and what offers were available, we don’t really have a basis to criticize or go anywhere with that convo.

Assuming we make only minor moves and keep most/all picks, this will be the funniest C’s team to watch in a while. Things that get me excited:

a full season of Brown and Tatum as our two main options...last time they had that opportunity they got us to game 7 of ECF. They will be confident AF. Brown is also entering his restricted free agency and will be pushing himself as he tries to earn a max deal.
Brad’s system will be restored. Welcome back ball movement and defense
Better team spirit in general, less hand pointing. Guys genuinely pulling for each other
More of the offense running through Hayward/him having a large role and also being more confident
Watching Rob Williams and 2 or so rookies develop. Tracking the Grizzlies record to see if pick conveys.
Semi Ojeyle - I am hoping Morris leaves so Semi can finally get a consistent 15-20 mins a game.
Tommy and Mike - another year with them in tow. We should cherish them while we can. Some day we will tell our grandchildren that we got to be a part of their ride

In their careers so far Brown and Tatum have been below average players. A little luck one year in the playoffs against awful east teams doesn't change that. If they were anywhere near as good as you think they are we wouldn't have lost 4 games in a row to Milwaukee.

There green font on here? Lmao. One of the worst takes I have seen on this board in a long time.


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[cloverleaf]

Seems like a lot of people feel this way on Rozier but I seldom see specific reasons why. Can you explain to me the basis for that because for whatever reason it’s genuinely not clear to me. The way I see it is he’s the same player who thrived in last year’s playoffs. We might not see him as an alpha because he doesn’t have the elite abilities but he’s absolutely an alpha personality. Which is to say I think Kyrie’s effect on him puts a giant asterisk on any conclusions we may draw from this past season (assuming last year’s performance is a significant source of the criticism). I’d love him back at $14/M a year or less, especially when compared to other likely options.

This may be the most unnecessary thing to expressly say on a sports message board but: tell me why I’m wrong or what I’m missing

His decidedly uneven D this year and mouthing off at the end of the season would be two reasons. Also, his inefficiency shooting in the role he was in most of the year would be the third thing driving people crazy, as well as just not seeming to have that much smarts or vision on the court for a PG.

All that said, I think his TO% makes up for a lot of the inefficiency and his performance in a starting PG role over the last two years, including deep into the playoffs, suggests that he likely will be better when he gets that role regularly. I'm really okay if he either stays or goes at this point, depending on the price and whatever else Danny comes up with at that position. For all his bluster he has been a relatively low usage player which is what we want out there complementing the J's and Gordo next season. Also, he can defend the faster PGs that Smart can't keep up with, which is valuable. Finally, he's always been high in Doc's favorite form of ability: avail-ability!

[bucknersrevenge]

A lot of people undervalue or forget about Brown and Tatum when criticizing Ainge for “not doing anything” with all his assets. You know how many teams would dream to have those two guys on their team. Those two could just as easily be Kris Dunn and Markelle Fultz. We’re still sitting pretty, and Kyrie mucking things up to the degree he has is hard to put on Danny.

There are only two recent things that I think are worth questioning: his decisions to not trade Rozier and Morris either last off-season or at the trade deadline. But without knowing the market and what offers were available, we don’t really have a basis to criticize or go anywhere with that convo.

Assuming we make only minor moves and keep most/all picks, this will be the funniest C’s team to watch in a while. Things that get me excited:

a full season of Brown and Tatum as our two main options...last time they had that opportunity they got us to game 7 of ECF. They will be confident AF. Brown is also entering his restricted free agency and will be pushing himself as he tries to earn a max deal.
Brad’s system will be restored. Welcome back ball movement and defense
Better team spirit in general, less hand pointing. Guys genuinely pulling for each other
More of the offense running through Hayward/him having a large role and also being more confident
Watching Rob Williams and 2 or so rookies develop. Tracking the Grizzlies record to see if pick conveys.
Semi Ojeyle - I am hoping Morris leaves so Semi can finally get a consistent 15-20 mins a game.
Tommy and Mike - another year with them in tow. We should cherish them while we can. Some day we will tell our grandchildren that we got to be a part of their ride

In their careers so far Brown and Tatum have been below average players. A little luck one year in the playoffs against awful east teams doesn't change that. If they were anywhere near as good as you think they are we wouldn't have lost 4 games in a row to Milwaukee.

There green font on here? Lmao. One of the worst takes I have seen on this board in a long time.


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Is it though?? Tatum's raw numbers scream mediocrity and that's before you take into account in penchant for going missing during crunch times of games often. He'd have a great 1st quarter only to allow himself to be taken out of the game completely in the 2nd half. After saying that he wanted to work on getting stronger and getting to the line more last offseason, he proceeded to take more long 2's this year, get to the line less and then complain after blowing layups. His numbers for this season are prime-level Trevor Ariza.

Jaylen Brown actually lost his starting spot to a guy who couldn't even shoot league average in any year leading up to this one. He was often reckless, turnover prone, and after 2 dribbles the likelihood of him bouncing the ball off of his own foot went up to 90% In addition, despite all of the physical tools he has to become an elite defender, he was one of the more uncommunicative team defenders on the team last year. He got baked on switches routinely and that's when he wasn't pouting about losing his spot or touches to guy who polished off an All-NBA 2nd team season while setting career highs in multiple offensive and defensive categories.

If they weren't below average, they were average at best. Mediocre at most. They regressed last season in almost every sense. I will give some credit to Brown for righting the ship later on but what I'm most surprised about on this forum (and maybe I shouldn't be) is how quickly posters come to their defense with excuses for their performance. You'd think with players that people portend are to be the cornerstones of this franchise and linchpins of the next Celtic dynasty, there would not be such an alarming lack of accountability sent their way.

[claycarver]

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This makes a ton of sense. I don't get why so many here think it's in his best interest to leave.

[darylbe]

I want him to leave to get out of his disaster max contract.

Read on Twitter

This makes a ton of sense. I don't get why so many here think it's in his best interest to leave.

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[darylbe]

Gunna complain to get it out of my system

I have 2019 - 20 Celtics as the 8th or worst seed in the east.

And enough already with Gordon hayward improving and facilitating the offense.

We will have smart that thinks he's Chris Paul, tatum who thinks he's kobe, and brown who thinks he's magic. Then Gordon stumbling around or standing in the corner. Not even Gunna get a good pick after this disaster.

I have:
Toronto
76ers
Bucks
Pacers
Nets
Wizards
Pistons
Knicks??
Celtics

And that's fine. I really think GH injury set us back 4 years. Hopefully JB, JT rw3 and MS grow the hell up. I am looking forward to them playing more, despite how ugly I think it will be, even if we were *soooo close***. It seems like Philly and Milwaukee slid in and took our spot.

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[claycarver]

lots of good stuff

You're a good addition to the board.

[ajones9219]

Gunna complain to get it out of my system

I have 2019 - 20 Celtics as the 8th or worst seed in the east.

And enough already with Gordon hayward improving and facilitating the offense.

We will have smart that thinks he's Chris Paul, tatum who thinks he's kobe, and brown who thinks he's magic. Then Gordon stumbling around or standing in the corner. Not even Gunna get a good pick after this disaster.

I have:
Toronto
76ers
Bucks
Pacers
Nets
Wizards
Pistons
Knicks??
Celtics

And that's fine. I really think GH injury set us back 4 years. Hopefully JB, JT rw3 and MS grow the hell up. I am looking forward to them playing more, despite how ugly I think it will be, even if we were *soooo close***. It seems like Philly and Milwaukee slid in and took our spot.

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lol k

[celtxman]

The thing that has been drummed into our heads for years is the treasure trove of assets the Celtics had would be able to go in multiple successful directions. By trading Tatum essentially for AD you would accomplish. Eliminating the logjam at the wing positions with the option of a capped team resigning Morris. Meanwhile you are exponentially improving your big man situation.
There was also the ability to trade Kyrie by the trade deadline with known suitors like the Clippers. So assuming we don't sign Kyrie, are we trying to get Russell for it or in reality gstting absolutely nothing?
So to me the shell game is about the assets and their use. When we put a dollar in quarters under a shell, move. It around and its 50 cents when you pick up the shell, then things were botched. If Morris, Rozier and Irving are gone for nothing, combined with the Sacramento pick fiasco, it will have the feel of a stock that was going great and then nosedived out of control.
Again to me it is about the assets. You can't talk about how brilliant Ainge is to get a likely inconsequential draft pick, and miss this aspect of the whole last season's moves or lack thereof.

Trading Tatum for Davis would have been a horrible use of that asset it would have essentially pissed away the entire Nets trade. Dude did not want to be here there is no pissing away of assets that can change that.

Losing Irving at the cost of the pick that became Sexton is a loss.

Morris has already served his purpose he was here to provide salary cap space and be a useful depth piece he exceeded those expectations.

Rozier is a story yet to be told. He could have been traded for a lottery protected first most likely and was kept as insurance against the situation that is likely about to play out. I don't think he is likely to get an offer sheet to his liking nor one Boston won't match so this should be easy.

Boston still has 3 first round picks and Memphis '20 pick to work with the only asset lost at this point is Irving assuming he is gone.

I will hold off on my choicest Kyrie Irving thoughts until his decision is final which has a lot to do with how I feel about this (hope I'm wrong.) I also agree with Ainge passing on AD now, with the thought that he could walk at the end of the year. After last year's debacle with all of the Celtics talent, I could see them losing everything too with another dysfunctional season.
My point with Morris has always been the same going back to the trade deadline when I wanted to keep him instead of getting another late first round pick. If you were to get rid of Tatum, Brown or both, you now have the right number of wings, including Hayward, without expending any assets. So even if the Celtics traded say Brown for a different big player now, you still have Bird rights with Morris, with three quality wing players.
To me it is about the Celtics lack of cap flexibility to be able to reshape the roster. As always, I am willing to see this through the process.
We agree there is story left to be told overall and I'm not giving up on a happy ending - just very skeptical of it

[chrisab123]

Gunna complain to get it out of my system

I have 2019 - 20 Celtics as the 8th or worst seed in the east.

And enough already with Gordon hayward improving and facilitating the offense.

We will have smart that thinks he's Chris Paul, tatum who thinks he's kobe, and brown who thinks he's magic. Then Gordon stumbling around or standing in the corner. Not even Gunna get a good pick after this disaster.

I have:
Toronto
76ers
Bucks
Pacers
Nets
Wizards
Pistons
Knicks??
Celtics

And that's fine. I really think GH injury set us back 4 years. Hopefully JB, JT rw3 and MS grow the hell up. I am looking forward to them playing more, despite how ugly I think it will be, even if we were *soooo close***. It seems like Philly and Milwaukee slid in and took our spot.

Sent from my SM-G960U using RealGM mobile app

lol k

The Knicks and the effin Wizards? Really? Lol. I do have the Celtics as a 6th seed as is. But those two teams are awful.

[Darth Celtic]

Gunna complain to get it out of my system

I have 2019 - 20 Celtics as the 8th or worst seed in the east.

And enough already with Gordon hayward improving and facilitating the offense.

We will have smart that thinks he's Chris Paul, tatum who thinks he's kobe, and brown who thinks he's magic. Then Gordon stumbling around or standing in the corner. Not even Gunna get a good pick after this disaster.

I have:
Toronto
76ers
Bucks
Pacers
Nets
Wizards
Pistons
Knicks??
Celtics

And that's fine. I really think GH injury set us back 4 years. Hopefully JB, JT rw3 and MS grow the hell up. I am looking forward to them playing more, despite how ugly I think it will be, even if we were *soooo close***. It seems like Philly and Milwaukee slid in and took our spot.

Sent from my SM-G960U using RealGM mobile app

lol k

The Knicks and the effin Wizards? Really? Lol. I do have the Celtics as a 6th seed as is. But those two teams are awful.

Yeah. Knicks wizards? Lol. Even the nets with Kyrie over dlo is questionable. I can see 7 the seed all the way to 10.

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[Andrew McCeltic]

Steve Kyler has claimed the Celtics and Nets are both pursuing Capela.. Brooklyn could do something like Dinwiddie/Jarrett Allen, or just absorb Capela into unused cap space. Wonder if Morey would be looking for Smart + Rob Williams.. a point guard and a young, cheap Capela replacement to develop. Houston would win both those trades.. but if there's a reason to trade Smart, it would be for an equally or more impactful player at a different position.

[StojkoVrankovic]

The Wizards are going to be better than us next season. How can you not be a troll?

[darylbe]

The Knicks potentially as people actually have a reason to play in New York, with 2 max contract openings. And yes, John wall and Bradley Beal is significantly better than the brown tatum combo.

Gunna complain to get it out of my system

I have 2019 - 20 Celtics as the 8th or worst seed in the east.

And enough already with Gordon hayward improving and facilitating the offense.

We will have smart that thinks he's Chris Paul, tatum who thinks he's kobe, and brown who thinks he's magic. Then Gordon stumbling around or standing in the corner. Not even Gunna get a good pick after this disaster.

I have:
Toronto
76ers
Bucks
Pacers
Nets
Wizards
Pistons
Knicks??
Celtics

And that's fine. I really think GH injury set us back 4 years. Hopefully JB, JT rw3 and MS grow the hell up. I am looking forward to them playing more, despite how ugly I think it will be, even if we were *soooo close***. It seems like Philly and Milwaukee slid in and took our spot.

Sent from my SM-G960U using RealGM mobile app

lol k

The Knicks and the effin Wizards? Really? Lol. I do have the Celtics as a 6th seed as is. But those two teams are awful.

Sent from my SM-G960U using RealGM mobile app

[The Corey's]

Could of had porzingis for chump change

[ajones9219]

The Knicks potentially as people actually have a reason to play in New York, with 2 max contract openings. And yes, John wall and Bradley Beal is significantly better than the brown tatum combo.

lol k

The Knicks and the effin Wizards? Really? Lol. I do have the Celtics as a 6th seed as is. But those two teams are awful.

Sent from my SM-G960U using RealGM mobile app

except John Wall is possibly missing the entire season per John Wall lol