Bellator 222 (Friday, 6/14): 2 titles, Chael-Machida

[AirCanadaMouse]

That is not the old Rory, c'mon. Rory used to push guys back and be relentless with long punches and a foward push. Here, he was just feinting and messing around, throwing the occasional counter. There's no reason to let a Gracie have the middle of the cage.

Boggles to think anyone thinks this is Rory still at his peak. Go watch a highlight. He used to have his teeth gritted, pushing into the pocket with his jab and landing combos. Compare the Travis Bickle Rory to the Oh Shucks, Ma Rory we saw last night.

I’ve watched all of his fights. Him and Mousasi are my two favourites, I never said this was peak Rory but he isn’t some washed up fighter that people make him out to be. This guy is still very much a top WW and we can’t discredit his resume now that he’s at Bellator either.

In fact, his worst performance was his last Ufc fight, but this is another reason why I love Rory. Master class performance and people will still find a way to hate and pull out the narrative that he’s not at his peak...

Guess what? Rory not at his peak is still a top 5 WW. He’s just no longer the best one. And yes, there was a time that he was. He’s about to be 30 after fighting since 17, natural regression is expected.

You telling me to watch his old fights yet you don’t realize this was a throwback to his performance against Maia who also had his back. Nieman is a good fighter who beat Ed Ruth, a terrific grappler in his own right. Do you realize how impressive that was that Rory was able to shut him down like that?

His post fight conference shed a lot of light on his approach too. It’s a tournament, you can’t go out there and fight like The Red King every bout, you’ll fall apart. He also re-injured his elbow from the Fitch fight.

I’m not sure why you expecting Rory to fight like that in a tourney. He couldn’t extend during gnp because Neiman was active and he didn’t want to get swept and fall into submission. Rory is still very calculated.

When you consider the context, this was a top 5 performance of his amazing career. Jesus Rory still not to be **** with


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[REDDzone]

^^ Nobody calls Rory washed up. There was a question after his last fight if his head was still in the game, mostly due to comments he himself made. You're arguing against claims that nobody is making.

[REDDzone]

I will say though, you could have serial killer Rory, caveman Rory, or Jesus Rory...it don't matter, no version of Rory ever would have beaten Mousasi LOL. Might as well give Rory McIlroy a shot for as competitive as that fight was.

[AirCanadaMouse]

^^ Nobody calls Rory washed up. There was a question after his last fight if his head was still in the game, mostly due to comments he himself made. You're arguing against claims that nobody is making.

I am talking in more general terms rather than you guys specifically, but even with that said...

I really feel like guys don’t give my man his due lol, you guys never considered him the best WW during Woodley’s reign, when he was. And now people are acting like he isn’t top 5 (not this board) when he most certainly is.

Did people expect him to steamroll Bellator fighters? These guys are legit fighters. Lima would be a contender in the UFC.


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[AirCanadaMouse]

I will say though, you could have serial killer Rory, caveman Rory, or Jesus Rory...it don't matter, no version of Rory ever would have beaten Mousasi LOL. Might as well give Rory McIlroy a shot for as competitive as that fight was.

No arguments from me on that one. Mousasi does everything that Rory excels in and is just much larger and even experienced. Also Rory doesn’t have the best head movement and given Mousasi’s Jab, always a bad recipe. Would be super interesting if Rory was a natural MW, as we know, Moose more than held his own at LHW, just a terrible matchup tbh.

I’ve always wanted to see Mousasi fight in LHW for a longer period in the UFC tbh. He admitted that he got scared of Gus’ size though and was actually relieved he dropped out of their scheduled bout lol. Love that guy


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[REDDzone]

^^ Nobody calls Rory washed up. There was a question after his last fight if his head was still in the game, mostly due to comments he himself made. You're arguing against claims that nobody is making.

I am talking in more general terms rather than you guys specifically, but even with that said...

I really feel like guys don’t give my man his due lol, you guys never considered him the best WW during Woodley’s reign, when he was. And now people are acting like he isn’t top 5 (not this board) when he most certainly is.

Did people expect him to steamroll Bellator fighters? These guys are legit fighters. Lima would be a contender in the UFC.


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It was just hard to ever really call Rory the best WW when he was brutally finished by Robbie and then soundly beaten by Wonderboy. What were the judges scorecards for Rory/Wonderboy? He wasn't styled on by Wonderboy but I don't remember that fight being particularly competitive either. 50-45s all the way around.

[cowboyronnie]

^^ Nobody calls Rory washed up. There was a question after his last fight if his head was still in the game, mostly due to comments he himself made. You're arguing against claims that nobody is making.

I am talking in more general terms rather than you guys specifically, but even with that said...

I really feel like guys don’t give my man his due lol, you guys never considered him the best WW during Woodley’s reign, when he was. And now people are acting like he isn’t top 5 (not this board) when he most certainly is.

Did people expect him to steamroll Bellator fighters? These guys are legit fighters. Lima would be a contender in the UFC.


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Neiman Gracie? Yeah, I did. With 5 rounds where the fight starts standing?

I think he was top 2-3 in the world at one point, no question. But he's nowhere near that same dude right now. He's still a very good fighter but he's not the guy who used to fight with a crazy blood lust 5-6 years ago.

Of any fighter even, he put huge importance on his fighting identity. That's why there was all that shark eyed staring, spear hunting, and serial killer talk. He was way into casting a reflection of himself. How could he possibly be the same fighter now that he's heard the Good News and questions whether he should hurt people at all?

Watch that highlight of him against BJ. He's fighting to inflict pain, going after BJ's body, putting together combinations.

It actually looked like he was just spamming kicks last night, in fact. That question mark kick he used to throw was nowhere to be seen. I wondered whether he wasn't throwing it because he actually didn't want it to land, he didn't have the heart to crack Gracie, he just wanted it as an idle threat.

[REDDzone]

^^ Nobody calls Rory washed up. There was a question after his last fight if his head was still in the game, mostly due to comments he himself made. You're arguing against claims that nobody is making.

I am talking in more general terms rather than you guys specifically, but even with that said...

I really feel like guys don’t give my man his due lol, you guys never considered him the best WW during Woodley’s reign, when he was. And now people are acting like he isn’t top 5 (not this board) when he most certainly is.

Did people expect him to steamroll Bellator fighters? These guys are legit fighters. Lima would be a contender in the UFC.


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Neiman Gracie? Yeah, I did. With 5 rounds where the fight starts standing?

I think he was top 2-3 in the world at one point, no question. But he's nowhere near that same dude right now. He's still a very good fighter but he's not the guy who used to fight with a crazy blood lust 5-6 years ago.

Of any fighter even, he put huge importance on his fighting identity. That's why there was all that shark eyed staring, spear hunting, and serial killer talk. He was way into casting a reflection of himself. How could he possibly be the same fighter now that he's heard the Good News and questions whether he should hurt people at all?

Watch that highlight of him against BJ. He's fighting to inflict pain, going after BJ's body, putting together combinations.

It actually looked like he was just spamming kicks last night, in fact. That question mark kick he used to throw was nowhere to be seen. I wondered whether he wasn't throwing it because he actually didn't want it to land, he didn't have the heart to crack Gracie, he just wanted it as an idle threat.

I can't recall if it was Firas or Rory himself, but after the Fitch fight one of them told Ariel that Rory was more content than usual to participate in grappling exchanges with Fitch because he didn't want to hurt him standing.

[cowboyronnie]

Fighters have taken that philosophy. Maia used to explicitly say his goal was to win fights while hurting his opponent the most minimally.

[cowboyronnie]

It gives pause to think that Aaron Pico, in a career so young, has already lost 3 times while Chael Sonnen retires undefeated.

[REDDzone]

I'd like to see Horiguchi/Mouse ran back.

Nice overhand by Archuleta,

Mix! Wow, what a throwback performance, old school Gracie jiu jitsu. Maia-esque. Shuck under the whizzer, take the back, choke tf out your opponent. Not a punch taken/thrown.

Good to see Danis back and fighting. Not a fan, but he was over punished for the Khabib fiasco. Still can't tell much about him due to competition level IMO.

Machida/Chael...whatevs. Although I'm down for Machida/Bader II. Terrible stylistic matchup for Bader.

Rory has such amazing bjj, man. Those stepovers to transition from what would have been bottom mount to top half guard...just awesome. People forget he went head-to-head with current 77 kg ADCC champion JT Torres for 20 minutes in metamores and yeah, he was a step behind but he still fought hard and was NOT outclassed. I agree he's not the same killer of old but his jiu jitsu is just beautiful and the most underrated part of his game IMO.

[Bernman]

Geez, the interest in the GOAT really fell off the cliff. I thought people would still wonder if he bounced back or would fail.

As far as the one comment about being glad the hype train derailed, that's a bit harsh, don't you think? He's a young kid, from all indicators not a dick, talented and exciting but hasn't put it all together, Bellator or his team wildly mismanaged him, and he hasn't been subbed or ko'ed once but three times now in a short span. Let's not lose sight of those things. I get rooting for people who are over-hyped to get knocked down a peg before they may climb back up, but there has to be a limit to that motive.

[REDDzone]

I'm indifferent to Pico tbh. I don't really blame bellator the way that most seem to. It recall an interview with Coker where someone asked him why they were giving Pico such difficult opponents and Coker said something to the effect of "you should see who he's asking to fight, we have been meeting him in the middle". Iirc Javier Mendes said something similar, idk how treigning lab or whoever he's with now felt about it. So yeah, his own ego failed him.

Hopefully he hasn't already sustained long term damage.

[cowboyronnie]

I'm indifferent to Pico tbh. I don't really blame bellator the way that most seem to. It recall an interview with Coker where someone asked him why they were giving Pico such difficult opponents and Coker said something to the effect of "you should see who he's asking to fight, we have been meeting him in the middle". Iirc Javier Mendes said something similar, idk how treigning lab or whoever he's with now felt about it. So yeah, his own ego failed him.

Hopefully he hasn't already sustained long term damage.

He's with Jackson and Gibson! They were in his corner. You'd think these dudes would be very cerebral and strategic.

[AirCanadaMouse]

^^ Nobody calls Rory washed up. There was a question after his last fight if his head was still in the game, mostly due to comments he himself made. You're arguing against claims that nobody is making.

I am talking in more general terms rather than you guys specifically, but even with that said...

I really feel like guys don’t give my man his due lol, you guys never considered him the best WW during Woodley’s reign, when he was. And now people are acting like he isn’t top 5 (not this board) when he most certainly is.

Did people expect him to steamroll Bellator fighters? These guys are legit fighters. Lima would be a contender in the UFC.


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Neiman Gracie? Yeah, I did. With 5 rounds where the fight starts standing?

I think he was top 2-3 in the world at one point, no question. But he's nowhere near that same dude right now. He's still a very good fighter but he's not the guy who used to fight with a crazy blood lust 5-6 years ago.

Of any fighter even, he put huge importance on his fighting identity. That's why there was all that shark eyed staring, spear hunting, and serial killer talk. He was way into casting a reflection of himself. How could he possibly be the same fighter now that he's heard the Good News and questions whether he should hurt people at all?

Watch that highlight of him against BJ. He's fighting to inflict pain, going after BJ's body, putting together combinations.

It actually looked like he was just spamming kicks last night, in fact. That question mark kick he used to throw was nowhere to be seen. I wondered whether he wasn't throwing it because he actually didn't want it to land, he didn't have the heart to crack Gracie, he just wanted it as an idle threat.

I referenced the Ed Ruth fight just so you realize that Neiman is good, and the fact that Rory was able to beat him In the fashion that he did was far more impressive than a quick, flash ko.

You using that to compare a fight to BJ who was well in his decline even against Rory. And why would you throw those kicks when Neiman is going for the takedowns ? You are complaining that he isn’t fighting like he used to and ignoring all my points regarding this ...

Why are you expecting him to fight this type of style in a tournament format? Why are you expecting him to be overly aggressive on the ground against Neiman? Your complaints are absurd and you ignored my last response regarding you because you probably realize it too.

You keep saying he’s not the same fighter but why are you expecting him to be the same all things considered?


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[AirCanadaMouse]

In fact, Rory threw a lot of kicks as he’s moving back, so hard to do comfortably. It’s so subtle how great he is.


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[Bernman]

Jackson was strategic enough in the fight. But it led to Pico fixating on wrestling, instead of transitioning from one area of the game to the other. So he becomes predictable and his defense fails him.

There can be plenty of blame to go around as far as the opposition choice, i.e.: his ego, management, camps, Bellator, etc. Bellator could have insisted he fight lesser comp than he was certainly. And the execution sucks. I was fine with the Corrales match. But coming off the loss to him, how do they have him facing a guy who might be better than Corrales and is known for capitalizing on mistakes to finish in an instant which has been Pico's bugaboo? Would he have turned down a fight with Noad Lahat?

[Bernman]

Rory looked pretty vicious against Fitch to me at times throughout that fight. But Fitch is a sticky grappler. You over-commit and he's going to grab a hold for a while. It's somewhat playing into his hands. And it did cost him to where he got laid and prayed enough to result in a draw.

The same concern existed with Gracie, who obviously is known for being one of the best grapplers in his weight class worldwide (he's inferior to Danis, but then again aren't we all in every way). Rory neutralized fairly well when they did hit the ground. But he doesn't want to wind up on bottom. That's how he gave up the 5th rd. And that goes to show that Gracie had stamina for Rory to not just tee off later in the fight like he did against Maia who was known for gassing hard.

I think he came up with an excuse after the Fitch fight to avoid criticism and some grabbed on. This fight I thought he looked good. Gracie is being underrated. He was on a roll before this fight, albeit against worse fighters than Rory. Ruth was a strong prospect. Not for nothing, Gracie beat him on the feet, and then worked the 3-time national champion wrestler from bottom and top on the ground before ultimately subbing him.

[cowboyronnie]

I am talking in more general terms rather than you guys specifically, but even with that said...

I really feel like guys don’t give my man his due lol, you guys never considered him the best WW during Woodley’s reign, when he was. And now people are acting like he isn’t top 5 (not this board) when he most certainly is.

Did people expect him to steamroll Bellator fighters? These guys are legit fighters. Lima would be a contender in the UFC.


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Neiman Gracie? Yeah, I did. With 5 rounds where the fight starts standing?

I think he was top 2-3 in the world at one point, no question. But he's nowhere near that same dude right now. He's still a very good fighter but he's not the guy who used to fight with a crazy blood lust 5-6 years ago.

Of any fighter even, he put huge importance on his fighting identity. That's why there was all that shark eyed staring, spear hunting, and serial killer talk. He was way into casting a reflection of himself. How could he possibly be the same fighter now that he's heard the Good News and questions whether he should hurt people at all?

Watch that highlight of him against BJ. He's fighting to inflict pain, going after BJ's body, putting together combinations.

It actually looked like he was just spamming kicks last night, in fact. That question mark kick he used to throw was nowhere to be seen. I wondered whether he wasn't throwing it because he actually didn't want it to land, he didn't have the heart to crack Gracie, he just wanted it as an idle threat.

I referenced the Ed Ruth fight just so you realize that Neiman is good, and the fact that Rory was able to beat him In the fashion that he did was far more impressive than a quick, flash ko.

Meaning he has one win against a guy who: was a f/t wrestler three years ago, learned to punch sometime in 2016, and had 6 fights?

That barely even counts as an MMA fight. They may as well have been at Abu Dhabi. One win against a grappling specialist is an impressive grappling feat, not a full-scale MMA resume.

A top MMA fighter needs to stop Neiman within 25 minutes. This isn't UFC 4.

[Bernman]

Ruth was ko'ing multiple respectable MMA fighters on the feet, made a run in the bjj Pan Ams, was a 3-time d1 wrestling champ, and is a special athlete for even the modern era. Neiman Gracie beat him both standing and ground. He was also 9-0.

You're right, this isn't UFC 4. Neiman Gracie isn't Royce Gracie and Ed Ruth isn't Ron Van Clief. You can't confidently say how Rory should have beat this Gracie with what he has done otherwise, especially if Rory's employing a "smart" gameplan instead of gambling to finish while risking giving up his back or ending up on bottom.