Celtics General Offseason Thread, 2019 – Welcome to the Party, #2

[Edug27]

Hayward wasn't better later in the year. He was lousy in the playoffs. If I could trade Hayward to the Knicks for Mitchell Robinson, I'd do it in a second. I would then renounce the trade exception and go after Kemba.

Nobody wants to trade for Hayward.

[Darth Celtic]

My opinion: Smart is not an NBA starting PG. He's a defensive specialist off the bench. He's Iggy. Rozier fits that role better. He can pass within the offense, and he can score the ball. Not perfect by any means though, but no one on the roster is.

I'm also tired of Marcus Morris. I say we rebuild the bench. Add 3 solid veteran pieces around Smart and Baynes. Particularly dudes who can put..the..ball..in..the..hole...

Rozier / Smart
Brown / **veteran**
Hayward / **veteran**
Tatum / **veteran**
Horford / Baynes / Williams

Then, if Beal comes available... You start those convo's.

Beal is looking like an AD type deal for the Wizards. All news is he's not available unless it's some stupid deal. And he doesn't move the needle enough as a player.

If Morris leaves, and we have the full MLE, how do we sign 3 vets worth playing better than Morris?

Well, heres my take.... It's time to adjust expectations completely. I think we need to understand the problems we had last season, to better avoid duplicating them. No more talking about needle moving players.

It's extremely hard to develop young players while having vets with strong personalities who want to win at all costs (see Lakers as well). The focus next season HAS to be on..

1. Developing Tatum, Jaylen and Rozier
2. Having Gordon slowly improve, week by week, game by game

........ everything else comes after that, including winning games and the wants/needs of our other vet players. Horford ONLY comes back because he loves Boston and wants to help the young dudes grow. Otherwise, he should move on. Morris is a personality that I feel won't fit with this roster. He likes his minutes, touches, and he has a strong personality. That's not what we need off our bench. Veterans who understand their role.. Because none of Tatum, Brown, Rozier, Hayward should worry about their minutes next season.. whether they are excelling or having a tough stretch. Same goes for Smart.. who I feel is only kept on this roster for a potential trade due to his salary #.

So we are in 100% agreement on what to do moving forward, except instead of 3 vets, I say 3 rookies and 1 vet MLE who is younger than 27.

Helps us in salary for trade ballast and has not tax issues as we won't be close to it. If the goal is to develop the kids as starters, the goal should also be to develop rookies on the bench too since winning isn't the biggest goal this year.

[jfs1000d]

Hayward wasn't better later in the year. He was lousy in the playoffs. If I could trade Hayward to the Knicks for Mitchell Robinson, I'd do it in a second. I would then renounce the trade exception and go after Kemba.

He was much better late in the year. Everyone sucked in the playoffs against Milwaukee. Irving never gave the rest of the roster a chance.

Car couldn’t play the game in November. He was at least good in March and April.

His body is the issue. I think he can get that explosiveness and strength back.


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[Edug27]

Beal is looking like an AD type deal for the Wizards. All news is he's not available unless it's some stupid deal. And he doesn't move the needle enough as a player.

If Morris leaves, and we have the full MLE, how do we sign 3 vets worth playing better than Morris?

Well, heres my take.... It's time to adjust expectations completely. I think we need to understand the problems we had last season, to better avoid duplicating them. No more talking about needle moving players.

It's extremely hard to develop young players while having vets with strong personalities who want to win at all costs (see Lakers as well). The focus next season HAS to be on..

1. Developing Tatum, Jaylen and Rozier
2. Having Gordon slowly improve, week by week, game by game

........ everything else comes after that, including winning games and the wants/needs of our other vet players. Horford ONLY comes back because he loves Boston and wants to help the young dudes grow. Otherwise, he should move on. Morris is a personality that I feel won't fit with this roster. He likes his minutes, touches, and he has a strong personality. That's not what we need off our bench. Veterans who understand their role.. Because none of Tatum, Brown, Rozier, Hayward should worry about their minutes next season.. whether they are excelling or having a tough stretch. Same goes for Smart.. who I feel is only kept on this roster for a potential trade due to his salary #.

So we are in 100% agreement on what to do moving forward, except instead of 3 vets, I say 3 rookies and 1 vet MLE who is younger than 27.

Helps us in salary for trade ballast and has not tax issues as we won't be close to it. If the goal is to develop the kids as starters, the goal should also be to develop rookies on the bench too since winning isn't the biggest goal this year.

I can roll with that. I just look at the Nets team last year.. and having the right veterans on the bench that know their role, are consistent, and are there to support the young guys.

[Darth Celtic]

Well, heres my take.... It's time to adjust expectations completely. I think we need to understand the problems we had last season, to better avoid duplicating them. No more talking about needle moving players.

It's extremely hard to develop young players while having vets with strong personalities who want to win at all costs (see Lakers as well). The focus next season HAS to be on..

1. Developing Tatum, Jaylen and Rozier
2. Having Gordon slowly improve, week by week, game by game

........ everything else comes after that, including winning games and the wants/needs of our other vet players. Horford ONLY comes back because he loves Boston and wants to help the young dudes grow. Otherwise, he should move on. Morris is a personality that I feel won't fit with this roster. He likes his minutes, touches, and he has a strong personality. That's not what we need off our bench. Veterans who understand their role.. Because none of Tatum, Brown, Rozier, Hayward should worry about their minutes next season.. whether they are excelling or having a tough stretch. Same goes for Smart.. who I feel is only kept on this roster for a potential trade due to his salary #.

So we are in 100% agreement on what to do moving forward, except instead of 3 vets, I say 3 rookies and 1 vet MLE who is younger than 27.

Helps us in salary for trade ballast and has not tax issues as we won't be close to it. If the goal is to develop the kids as starters, the goal should also be to develop rookies on the bench too since winning isn't the biggest goal this year.

I can roll with that. I just look at the Nets team last year.. and having the right veterans on the bench that know their role, are consistent, and are there to support the young guys.

If your goal is to be the 6th seed and lose in the 1st round, the nets strat worked perfectly. We shouldn't have that goal.

[TheOGJabroni]

That's a deal you do with AD on your team. He makes no sense for our current team.

Then again, neither does Horford.

Something centered around Hayward for Conley does a lot to balance the roster, but Id bet hayward has more life and productive basketball left in him comparedbto Conley despite his celtics career to date indicating otherwise.

He was much better late in the season than the beginning. This summer, he is obviously a workout fiend, he gets his explosion back because he worked at it. I think he’s in for a rebirth.

The talent was always there with this guy.

I don’t want to give up Hayward for an older player. We haven’t had the gordo we bought. We owe it to our franchise to see how he plays this year.


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I hope you are both right. To be clear, I am very much pro-Hayward. I just like Conley & his fit on the team & he's the easiest player to move in a deal for him in terms of salary. But if we can get Hayward at close to 100%, that would be terrific. I still think a move eventually would need to be made to clear out one of him, Brown or Tatum though.

[Edug27]

So we are in 100% agreement on what to do moving forward, except instead of 3 vets, I say 3 rookies and 1 vet MLE who is younger than 27.

Helps us in salary for trade ballast and has not tax issues as we won't be close to it. If the goal is to develop the kids as starters, the goal should also be to develop rookies on the bench too since winning isn't the biggest goal this year.

I can roll with that. I just look at the Nets team last year.. and having the right veterans on the bench that know their role, are consistent, and are there to support the young guys.

If your goal is to be the 6th seed and lose in the 1st round, the nets strat worked perfectly. We shouldn't have that goal.

..... so whats you're goal? You're either tanking, contending, developing, or treadmilling with vets.

[Darth Celtic]

I can roll with that. I just look at the Nets team last year.. and having the right veterans on the bench that know their role, are consistent, and are there to support the young guys.

If your goal is to be the 6th seed and lose in the 1st round, the nets strat worked perfectly. We shouldn't have that goal.

..... so whats you're goal? You're either tanking, contending, developing, or treadmilling with vets.

Developing with the youth. I don't want Morris or Horford back as they don't fit our timeline to compete again. But getting Horford on a cheap 20m a year deal could help us later in the year trade for somebody who does fit the timeline I guess.

tanking? We are too good to tank as long as Horford is here and without injuries to JB/JT who both seem to be pretty healthy overall.

Just remember, with the flattened odds, the Lakers got the 4th pick and only missed the playoffs in the west by a few games.

[Edug27]

If your goal is to be the 6th seed and lose in the 1st round, the nets strat worked perfectly. We shouldn't have that goal.

..... so whats you're goal? You're either tanking, contending, developing, or treadmilling with vets.

Developing with the youth. I don't want Morris or Horford back as they don't fit our timeline to compete again. But getting Horford on a cheap 20m a year deal could help us later in the year trade for somebody who does fit the timeline I guess.

tanking? We are too good to tank as long as Horford is here and without injuries to JB/JT who both seem to be pretty healthy overall.

Just remember, with the flattened odds, the Lakers got the 4th pick and only missed the playoffs in the west by a few games.

Agree.. I think we just disagree on how to "develop the youth".

[scootch]

I don't know. I think we have a tremendous opportunity to deploy some very unique lineups next year centered around Hayward as the primary ball-handler, Tatum as our leading offensive option, and Jaylen as our second. Yes, it relies on Hayward rebounding, but I like to have faith. Smart is the 6th man who plays 30+ minutes a game and starts in matchups we need to lock down a lead guard. In others, we can even go super wing heavy and put a LOT of agile size on the floor.

That doesn't sound like a treadmill to me.

[CelticFaninLBC]

Hayward wasn't better later in the year. He was lousy in the playoffs. If I could trade Hayward to the Knicks for Mitchell Robinson, I'd do it in a second. I would then renounce the trade exception and go after Kemba.

Nobody wants to trade for Hayward.

Yep, best thing to do is keep Hayward and hope he's a lot better this year.

[MagicBagley18]

I'd resign Al, 3/70, match Rozier on anything under 12 million. Similar offer for Morris.

Bring back nearly the same team + draft picks and laugh once it wins more games than the Lakers and whatever team Kyrie picks.

I'd also keep an eye out for Blake Griffin at the deadline. Brown + Rozier at around 12-14 million a year, Yabu and the 14th pick after we sign him should get us close ish salary wise.

Smart, Hayward, Tatum, Griffin and Horford would be nice.

You know the Celtics are in a bad spot when the denial of such fans is causing them to make such statements as implying that we will be better than the Lakers with LeBron and Anthony Davis

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It’s just the denial phase. Acceptance is the next phase and once we do that everything will get better. Celtics fans 2 most hated things 1) lakers 2) Lebron and now they are combined but not the clown show we thought but legit contenders and it pisses everyone off (including myself). Sucks to watch our rivals become contenders and better than us by almost doing virtually everything wrong.

Long term the Celtics will be fine. I’ve rooted for them in much darker days like we all have and we will all do again but there’s no doubt this is just the nightmare scenario for us. We have no defined path, lost our best asset for nothing and our best free agent signing ever has been decimated by injury and we are hoping and praying he comes back CLOSE to pre-Injury form and no real flexibility moving forward.

We have tatum Which is a better start to a rebuild than most rebuilds begin with (which is the way I’d lean but don’t think management will) and the Memphis pick so in The end I have confidence in ownership and management to get it right but IMO the next few years will be tough if we don’t pick a defined path and try to stray the middle.

still trust in ainge but I can understand those tho are doubting him now and I understand the anger some have here.

[Curmudgeon]

Hayward wasn't better later in the year. He was lousy in the playoffs. If I could trade Hayward to the Knicks for Mitchell Robinson, I'd do it in a second. I would then renounce the trade exception and go after Kemba.

He was much better late in the year. Everyone sucked in the playoffs against Milwaukee. Irving never gave the rest of the roster a chance.

Car couldn’t play the game in November. He was at least good in March and April.

His body is the issue. I think he can get that explosiveness and strength back.


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Certainly Kyrie's departure will help him, just as it will help everyone else. But Kemba and Mitchell Robinson could help them too.
The chance that Hayward will be traded is small, and if he stays I'm rooting for him. But if I could move him and unload that salary to an under-the-cap team, I would.

I bet you could get CP3 for Hayward. Any takers on that? I say no because CP3's deal is outrageous. But Ainge has always loved the guy.

[bucknersrevenge]

And I'd strongly have to disagree with both of you. I feel Rozier has much more room to grow as a player than Smart does.

If Rozier is resigned, he will be with expectations that he's the starting PG next season.

This part is definitely where we do agree. I don't think you can bring Rozier back unless you tell him that he is the starter. In my mind though he doesn't fit with Brown and Tatum. It'll be the Terry Rozier show out there if he comes back next to those two. And Smart did nothing last year to deserve a benching.

Smart has always been on the bench. He was thrown into the starting lineup when crap got messy last year. He came off the bench during our long playoff run last season.

During that run.. Jaylen, Brown and Rozier all played 32-36 mpg, got up 13-14 shots a game, scoring 16-18 ppg in a fairly efficient manner. Small sample size, but not sure how you feel they don't "fit together". I'm intrigued with seeing that tandem (with Gordon) over the course of a season. Terry as a starter is different than Terry off the bench. Jaylen as a starter is different than Jaylen off the bench. I'm sure the same would be said about Jayson as well. Smart is Smart.. Starter or bench player.

Last season was a mess all around. Throw that tape away. Players weren't playing to their strengths.

A friend of mine was just reminding me how RFAs have been treated lately. With DAR, Conley, Rubio, Rondo, Collison, etc all available in the secondary market Terry may not actually get many offers. Especially because it ties up a team's money for up to 72 hours. This is what happened with Smart. If Danny doesn't want to let the asset go, he could again as with Smart, sign Rozier to a similar deal that could later be moved.

As for Smart he was originally drafted and began his career as a starter. He was INSERTED into the starting lineup to stabilize the BS that was going on which he did. He's a much better passer than Rozier. He has a better understanding of how to run an offense. He's definitely better defensively. And he's not a gunner. I'd rather Tatum, Brown and Hayward take most of the shots as opposed to the Terry Rozier show. Smart was overall a more efficient player last season and I'd prefer efficient guys around them but I'm thinking he'll probably be back anyway. However, since he may not have a choice, they definitely shouldn't promise him a starting job.

[Banks2Pierce]

Hayward wasn't better later in the year. He was lousy in the playoffs. If I could trade Hayward to the Knicks for Mitchell Robinson, I'd do it in a second. I would then renounce the trade exception and go after Kemba.

He was much better late in the year.

Yeah, there's a difference between late in the regular season and the playoffs. He was better at the end of the year, but nowhere near where we'll need him to be going forward.

I still need at least a day or two to even process how we should proceed from this point in the wake of Davis moving and Kyrie walking. Getting Horford for more years seems like an obvious path assets wise if we go young or talent wise if we're trying to win, but I'm sure the number he's asking for is uncomfortably high.

[CeltsfanSinceBirth]

I bet you could get CP3 for Hayward. Any takers on that? I say no because CP3's deal is outrageous. But Ainge has always loved the guy.

CP3 and John Wall are the only guys who I think we could flip Hayward straight up for, just because their deals are worse and longer than Hayward's. Maybe Blake too, since he's being held together by duct tape and hope.

We might as well keep Hayward. Just 2 years left.

[Celtics_Champs]

Watch on YouTube

[Curmudgeon]

I bet you could get CP3 for Hayward. Any takers on that? I say no because CP3's deal is outrageous. But Ainge has always loved the guy.

CP3 and John Wall are the only guys who I think we could flip Hayward straight up for, just because their deals are worse and longer than Hayward's. Maybe Blake too, since he's being held together by duct tape and hope.

We might as well keep Hayward. Just 2 years left.

Well, you could also flip him for a project on an under-the-cap team like the Knicks, whose chances of getting a "name" player this offseason do not appear bright. I expect you could also get Mike Conley, another older guy with a bad contract.

[bucknersrevenge]

Smart increased his finishing at the rim last season by 100 points. He increased his 3pt % by 6 points. He was a better ballhandler last year. If he starts I look to finally get to see more of the post up/bully ball on opposing PGs that I was expecting out of him when he came into the league. Smart can now finally be the point of attack at BOTH ends of the floor against PGs. He won't ever be Damien Lillard but this narrative where Marcus cannot be an effective offensive contributor is going to be rendered extinct by the end of this next season. We need the right complementary pieces around Tatum, Brown, and Hayward who really should be relied on to do most of the scoring on this team. Smart has another gear as well I think. His gear though is just more democratic.

There is no age difference, they're both basically young veterans at this point, they've gotten similar minutes the last couple years. Id argue to say that Rozier is more of a finished product than Smart. He can be a good scorer off the bench, but when he gets a bigger role on offense he becomes a liability on defense. Smart was by far the more efficient player last year, is a much better passer, and is multiple levels ahead on defense.

Smart with a somewhat reliable outside shot is a far better option to start next to Jaylen and Tatum, and Terry can bring offense off the bench, if back. I will say this though, a small part of me in nervous he may try to take too much on and start chucking again this year and drop back down to the low 30s from 3.

And I'd strongly have to disagree with both of you. I feel Rozier has much more room to grow as a player than Smart does.

If Rozier is resigned, he will be with expectations that he's the starting PG next season.

This part is definitely where we do agree. I don't think you can bring Rozier back unless you tell him that he is the starter. In my mind though he doesn't fit with Brown and Tatum. It'll be the Terry Rozier show out there if he comes back next to those two. And Smart did nothing last year to deserve a benching.

So I guess I'm changing my mind here on this point. It may not go over well with Terry but Danny doesn't have to promise him a damn thing. If it's about not losing the asset, Danny could match an offer in a good salary slot or make one up if Terry doesn't get an offer from anyone. And truth be told if he doesn't get an offer of 15 + I think we match. Which means if no teams have that much space to offer or don't believe him to be worth that, he won't get an offer that ties up their books for 72 hours. Either way, I just think they value what Smart brings on so many levels he will always win out over Terry if/when it comes down to a choice.

[The Corey's]

Rozier and the 14 for pick 4? Then pelicans can swing ball for whatever.