Political Roundtable Part XXVI

[daoneandonly]

Answer the question or forfeit the argument.

Consequence for fathering a child? Is it a punishment of some kind, the way you phrase it is absurd

Men pay child if they dont have the balls to step up and be a dad, or if the mother is a selfish person and doesnt allow him to do so

Now I ask you, what's the consequence for a woman (and her willing partner) having an abortion?

Having her insides vacuumed out in an expensive and painful procedure. Censure and societal judgement by people who do not know her circumstances and don’t care. Shame and humiliation if she actually does care about their opinion. Worries that she may be unable to have kids later when she chooses.

Few people have an abortion without it being a serious and heavy decision. Reproductive choice though has allowed more women to participate in the workforce and add value to our country’s economy and success. This has been significant in many mostly positive ways, ensuring that fewer children are born into crushing poverty. These kids have no choice to be born poor into a society that then judges and locks them up for their poverty.

Women who choose not to carry a pregnancy to term and undergo a safe medical procedure before the developing cells can become a human being do deal with the consequences of that single decision. Women who are prevented from choosing that decision deal whether or not they voluntarily became pregnant end up with two lifetimes worth of hard consequences. It is only sensible, no matter how upsetting and hard the decision, that women do take the choice that allows them to decide what to do with the rest of their life.

Developing cells with no brainwave activity that cannot live without the full support of the womb inside someone are not yet people. The woman hosting that _potential_ life is undoubtedly a person. Only one gender bears the consequences of childbirth. They should have the greatest say in when and whether their bodies will serve this purpose.

Get pregnant yourself. Then talk about who bears what consequence.

Judgement? Did the Abortion Registry get enacted without me knowing? How would anyone know she had an abortion unless she told them? hence, she's probably not too embarrassed or grief stricken as you are making it out to be. Unable to have kids in the future? So those kids for some reason have more value than the one currently in her womb, that doesn't make sense whatsoever.

And since when are people jailed simply for being poor? That's a reach just to try and make sense of this whole pro choice argument

[dckingsfan]

And what exactly is the consequence for the woman (and her partner in crime) who have abortions? Not one iota of a thing.

What about the cases when the man wants the child but the woman aborts them, what about his rights?

Answer the question or forfeit the argument.

Consequence for fathering a child? Is it a punishment of some kind, the way you phrase it is absurd

Men pay child if they dont have the balls to step up and be a dad, or if the mother is a selfish person and doesnt allow him to do so

Now I ask you, what's the consequence for a woman (and her willing partner) having an abortion?

Two different questions.
1) If the woman DOES have the baby, what are the consequences for the man.
vs.
2) If the women DOESN'T have the baby, what are the consequences for the man and women.

And the answer to 2) would be mitigated by - is the girl a minor, was the woman raped, are there physical issues that would prevent a safe pregnancy and other tertiary issues such as, does the woman have insurance, can she afford to have the necessary prenatal care, can she afford to take time off for the pregnancy.

And if the answer your looking for is any kind of prison experience - you can completely count me out especially with our amazing failures recently with prohibition, the war on drugs and tough on crime. Taking millions out of the workforce would be absolute lunacy with unintended consequences that couldn't be remedied.

[dckingsfan]

BTW, has anyone brought up the fact that abortion rates are falling? Could we get them to fall faster? How?

[doclinkin]

Judgement? Did the Abortion Registry get enacted without me knowing? How would anyone know she had an abortion unless she told them? hence, she's probably not too embarrassed or grief stricken as you are making it out to be. Unable to have kids in the future? So those kids for some reason have more value than the one currently in her womb, that doesn't make sense whatsoever.

And since when are people jailed simply for being poor? That's a reach just to try and make sense of this whole pro choice argument

I guess you don’t have the conviction of your principles then. I commonly pass by planned parenthood and see abortion opponents waiting out front with signs and literature to confront teen girls who are even just walking past the building. Of course that has an effect. That’s the point of the protest. To make it upsetting to even contemplate the choice.

And here you are busy judging and shaming them in this thread. With no understanding of what they go through. And society judges them by making it impossible to make that choice.

I’ve had good friends undergo the procedure. One was the daughter of a preacher. An abusive father who had regularly beaten her growing up. She finally was on her own and working and was supporting a child. Her birth control failed. She got pregnant. She had ehlers danloss syndrome which makes your ligaments soft under hormonal changes so during her first pregnancy she couldn’t walk up or down stairs without her hips separating or knees giving out. For the last 2 months of her first pregnancy she was on bed rest and suffered pregnancy induced diabetes and high blood pressure. She had been separated from the father who cheated then left her and could not be tracked down. But as a single mom she was working and moved up to management positions. If she stayed pregnant she would have lost her job and health insurance for herself and her child. And her apartment. And moved from the neighborhood where her kid was in school and had friends and was succeeding, to where? A shelter? Or maybe the family that she emancipated herself from at age 15 to avoid the abuse and drug addiction issues from members of that family? Where her son once actually stepped on a needle when she was visiting and had to get a hepatitis blood test.

She chose to save two paychecks and have the procedure. Her life is better for it. And safe legal access to that procedure saved her life and her sons life.

Ten years later I married her. So be careful what you say and how you judge people when you clearly have no idea what you’re talking about.

[Ruzious]

BTW, has anyone brought up the fact that abortion rates are falling? Could we get them to fall faster? How?

I have not studdied this issue - so my apologies if I have some misconceptions, but ever since my since a sibling of mine went through the "laborious" and expensive process of adopting a baby from China, I've been wondering - why is it apparently so difficult to adopt an American baby - so that adopting parents go to so much effort and expense to adopt babies on the other side of the earth? Isn't there a way to make the process much easier to adopt American babies? And shouldn't that avenue be explored more? To me, that's a question to ask regardless of whether or not a person is pro-choice.

Doc, thank you for sharing that.

[daoneandonly]

Judgement? Did the Abortion Registry get enacted without me knowing? How would anyone know she had an abortion unless she told them? hence, she's probably not too embarrassed or grief stricken as you are making it out to be. Unable to have kids in the future? So those kids for some reason have more value than the one currently in her womb, that doesn't make sense whatsoever.

And since when are people jailed simply for being poor? That's a reach just to try and make sense of this whole pro choice argument

I guess you don’t have the conviction of your principles then. I commonly pass by planned parenthood and see abortion opponents waiting out front with signs and literature to confront teen girls who are even just walking past the building. Of course that has an effect. That’s the point of the protest. To make it upsetting to even contemplate the choice.

And here you are busy judging and shaming them in this thread. With no understanding of what they go through. And society judges them by making it impossible to make that choice.

I’ve had good friends undergo the procedure. One was the daughter of a preacher. An abusive father who had regularly beaten her growing up. She finally was on her own and working and was supporting a child. Her birth control failed. She got pregnant. She had ehlers danloss syndrome which makes your ligaments soft under hormonal changes so during her first pregnancy she couldn’t walk up or down stairs without her hips separating or knees giving out. For the last 2 months of her first pregnancy she was on bed rest and suffered pregnancy induced diabetes and high blood pressure. She had been separated from the father who cheated then left her and could not be tracked down. But as a single mom she was working and moved up to management positions. If she stayed pregnant she would have lost her job and health insurance for herself and her child. And her apartment. And moved from the neighborhood where her kid was in school and had friends and was succeeding, to where? A shelter? Or maybe the family that she emancipated herself from at age 15 to avoid the abuse and drug addiction issues from members of that family? Where her son once actually stepped on a needle when she was visiting and had to get a hepatitis blood test.

She chose to save two paychecks and have the procedure. Her life is better for it. And safe legal access to that procedure saved her life and her sons life.

Ten years later I married her. So be careful what you say and how you judge people when you clearly have no idea what you’re talking about.

You're talking about a situation where a pregnancy can endanger the life of the mother, I'm familiar with ehlers danloss, someone I care for dearly has it, it's a terrible disease to have to live with and my heart goes out to anyone who has it. I'm talking about the vast majority of abortions, the whoops didn't get pregnant but there are no issues with my health or the baby's to warrant an abortion, just i dont want the responsibility and have to sacrifice any part of my life. The folks on this board (not you by the way, your cool peeps doc) dismiss anecdotal posts and only cling to majority arguments when it suits them (like the electoral college vs popular vote), but the population you are speaking of having abortions is a very small, minuscule minority (health or rape)

As for PP protests and impact, so a one time comment scars them for life? That's a harsh punishment for ending a baby's life? If they care more about what a stranger thinks or says to them in some passing exchange than the life of their child, then that says more about them than anything else.

[Zonkerbl]

And what exactly is the consequence for the woman (and her partner in crime) who have abortions? Not one iota of a thing.

What about the cases when the man wants the child but the woman aborts them, what about his rights?

Answer the question or forfeit the argument.

Consequence for fathering a child? Is it a punishment of some kind, the way you phrase it is absurd

Men pay child if they dont have the balls to step up and be a dad, or if the mother is a selfish person and doesnt allow him to do so

Now I ask you, what's the consequence for a woman (and her willing partner) having an abortion?

Here now before the court of realgm/political discussion stands the defendant, daoneandonly, accused by the plaintiff, zonkerbl, of specious reasoning, claiming to apply accepted rules of common sense and basic humanity to argue for an arbitrary rule that effectively treats women as second class citizens.

Presiding in this court is zonkerbl. Motion by defendent to dismiss on the basis of conflict of interest is denied, on the grounds that the court promises to be as unbiased as Brett Kavanaugh would be.

Plaintiff argues rules of basic humanity force court to consider fetuses persons only when they can survive childbirth. Defendant counters that rules of basic humanity mean whatever he wants them to mean. Court rules in favor of the plaintiff.

On appeal, defendant restates position that rules of basic humanity support ruling in favor of the fetus regardless of its viability. Plaintiff challenges this argument on the grounds of basic humanity, that such an arbitrary decision would effectively treat women as second class citizens and violate the rules of basic humanity. Plaintiff offers defendant opportunity to explain how consequences of arbitrary ruling in favor of fetus regardless of viability would not disproportionately impact women negatively. Defendant pretends not to understand the question.

Court rules in favor of plaintiff. Defendant's attempt to convince plaintiff has FAILED. The court further notes that defendant has exhausted all opportunities for appeal. Court's final ruling is that daoneandonly employed specious argument to support the patriarchy.

Noted this day, the 18th of June, the year 2019 and entered into the record.

[dobrojim]

As it relates to your point, I did read them, I can appreciate your thoroughness and knowledge on the subject, I think it's just a matter of respectfully disagreeing. I believe a zygote fetus whatever folks want to call them, deserve a chance at life. The majority of abortions are due to nothing more than a consensual sex unplanned pregnancy, and that is not reason enough to terminate an abortion. if you are talking the mother or baby's life being in danger, or rape, then sure, those circumstances should be discussed accordingly, but not the whoops. Abortion shouldn't be treated as a birth control option.

And what you mentioned about McConnell, while you have a point regarding him as a person, same can be said for AOC, Warren, and Sanders.

re a zygote...I guess the thing we're not seeing eye to eye on is that most here would
say it's fine for you to hold that belief as a personal matter but that you are crossing
a huge line to impose, what you admit is simply a personal belief, on everyone whether
they happen to hold the same personal belief or not. If you don't agree with abortion,
then don't have one or behave in a way that would cause one.

In another post you claimed that most abortions are caused by irresponsible sex.
You failed to provide a citation. That sounds a lot like a personal belief as well...

as does your equating Sanders/AOC/Warren with the likes of Senator Yertle (the turtle)
who has yet to meet a principle he's not willing to toss overboard in the interests of
exerting his power.

[Zonkerbl]

Court further notes that it is not plaintiff's job to educate defendant about how women would be negatively impacted. Defendant's claim of no negative impact is prima facie evidence of zero knowledge and therefore inability to argue persuasively on subject.

[doclinkin]

but the population you are speaking of having abortions is a very small, minuscule minority (health or rape)

Incorrect. According to the CDC Perinatal conditions are the #9 killer of women under age 44.

Any pregnancy is a seriously harsh medical condition, putting the woman at risk for injury and death.

[JWizmentality]

but the population you are speaking of having abortions is a very small, minuscule minority (health or rape)

Incorrect. According to the CDC Perinatal conditions are the #9 killer of women under age 44.

Any pregnancy is a seriously harsh medical condition, putting the woman at risk for injury and death.

As per my point a while ago. He is either woefully misinformed or willfully ignorant. Neither a good place to be.

And you know what the sad thing is, it's people like him that run and end up in office making political decisions. The govt is rife with people like him. The kind of people that toss snowballs in the senate.

[daoneandonly]

but the population you are speaking of having abortions is a very small, minuscule minority (health or rape)

Incorrect. According to the CDC Perinatal conditions are the #9 killer of women under age 44.

Any pregnancy is a seriously harsh medical condition, putting the woman at risk for injury and death.

As per my point a while ago. He is either woefully misinformed or willfully ignorant. Neither a good place to be.

And you know what the sad thing is, it's people like him that run and end up in office making political decisions. The govt is rife with people like him. The kind of people that toss snowballs in the senate.

Yet you never responded to your false claim that NO Democrat has supported giving mass murderers the rigth to vote, when clearly Sanders did. What happened there?

And better politicians like this than the likes of AOC who just seeks attention, adulation, and loves the sound of her own voice. She's essentially a female Donald Trump that supports baby murder and handouts

[dobrojim]

Tired of being polite so I'm incined to just ignore you (again).
Baby killer is a real conversation stopper. Completely inflamatory
and just your personal extreme position. As for AOC, you better
get used to having her around. To call her a female DJT is laughable
if it weren't so misguided. Unlike AOC, Trump won't read anything and can't string
2 coherent or truthful sentences together. This is what the GOP has
evolved into, a cult following for a malignant narcissist who is also a
criminal who would be under indictment if not in jail (edit to add/correct)
if not for being POTUS.

As Gerson (former Republican) put it-

So: This is blasphemy, in service to ideology, leading to idolatry, justified by heresy.
All in a Sunday’s work.

[I_Like_Dirt]

You're talking about a situation where a pregnancy can endanger the life of the mother, I'm familiar with ehlers danloss, someone I care for dearly has it, it's a terrible disease to have to live with and my heart goes out to anyone who has it. I'm talking about the vast majority of abortions

News flash! There are always major complicating factors in every abortion. This is how these kinds of discussion always go. "Oh, I wasn't talking about your abortion or their abortion, or their abortion, I just want to ban it because other abortions in hypothetical cases that make up the majority even though I have no evidence to support it because that's what I believe it to be." Nobody is just deciding to abort for no reason. There are always valid reasons - some more valid than others depending on the beholder. And there is always a serious risk of death to the birth mother.

I have not studdied this issue - so my apologies if I have some misconceptions, but ever since my since a sibling of mine went through the "laborious" and expensive process of adopting a baby from China, I've been wondering - why is it apparently so difficult to adopt an American baby - so that adopting parents go to so much effort and expense to adopt babies on the other side of the earth? Isn't there a way to make the process much easier to adopt American babies? And shouldn't that avenue be explored more? To me, that's a question to ask regardless of whether or not a person is pro-choice.

Doc, thank you for sharing that.

There are a few factors. For one, there are fewer American born children because of birth control and more people with disposable income without children.

For two, and this is the crucial one, American adoptions involve a significantly greater degree of supports for the birth mother, and honestly, that's as it should be. There is an old-school imagery of adoption where someone who wants a baby/child but doesn't have one just sort of picks one up. Reality is way more complicated. That child is eventually going to want to search for their birth parents at some point and if they're only 3 towns over, that's entirely different than if they have to travel to China to find look. There is a much greater degree of control there.

And if you're asking a birth mother to risk pregnancy and then not have any sort of connection to their child, that's not necessarily the most wondrous of ideas but can bring in a whole host of complications. This gets even more complicated if you think of certain women who might consider abortions. Addiction-related birth illnesses/defects. Contact with a mother who might have addictions issues of her own. This is a messy subject no matter how you choose to look at it. Why would anyone who wants to adopt want to deal with any of that? They have a clean cut idea of what a baby means in their head and that's what they want. Far easier to simply take that baby from a poor woman an ocean or two away. And I don't fault people who adopt. That takes hard work, a major investment and they clearly want children and are frequently amazing parents who are highly devoted to their children. But then you need some sort of protections here against human trafficking, etc., too, and just because other countries don't always have high standards there doesn't mean the US should eschew them entirely.

The catch here is that with adoption, as with abortion, the best solution is probably very similar and maybe even the same: supports for would-be mothers/parents. It would also involve redefining adoption a bit to include an ongoing relationship with the birth parents which is a significant challenge and quite different from having your own child, but that's really a part of it. If we aren't willing to support women at the most challenging of times, we are going to cause problems and costs for society down the road. We're already doing that.

[Ruzious]

I have not studdied this issue - so my apologies if I have some misconceptions, but ever since my since a sibling of mine went through the "laborious" and expensive process of adopting a baby from China, I've been wondering - why is it apparently so difficult to adopt an American baby - so that adopting parents go to so much effort and expense to adopt babies on the other side of the earth? Isn't there a way to make the process much easier to adopt American babies? And shouldn't that avenue be explored more? To me, that's a question to ask regardless of whether or not a person is pro-choice.

Doc, thank you for sharing that.

There are a few factors. For one, there are fewer American born children because of birth control and more people with disposable income without children.

For two, and this is the crucial one, American adoptions involve a significantly greater degree of supports for the birth mother, and honestly, that's as it should be. There is an old-school imagery of adoption where someone who wants a baby/child but doesn't have one just sort of picks one up. Reality is way more complicated. That child is eventually going to want to search for their birth parents at some point and if they're only 3 towns over, that's entirely different than if they have to travel to China to find look. There is a much greater degree of control there.

And if you're asking a birth mother to risk pregnancy and then not have any sort of connection to their child, that's not necessarily the most wondrous of ideas but can bring in a whole host of complications. This gets even more complicated if you think of certain women who might consider abortions. Addiction-related birth illnesses/defects. Contact with a mother who might have addictions issues of her own. This is a messy subject no matter how you choose to look at it. Why would anyone who wants to adopt want to deal with any of that? They have a clean cut idea of what a baby means in their head and that's what they want. Far easier to simply take that baby from a poor woman an ocean or two away. And I don't fault people who adopt. That takes hard work, a major investment and they clearly want children and are frequently amazing parents who are highly devoted to their children. But then you need some sort of protections here against human trafficking, etc., too, and just because other countries don't always have high standards there doesn't mean the US should eschew them entirely.

The catch here is that with adoption, as with abortion, the best solution is probably very similar and maybe even the same: supports for would-be mothers/parents. It would also involve redefining adoption a bit to include an ongoing relationship with the birth parents which is a significant challenge and quite different from having your own child, but that's really a part of it. If we aren't willing to support women at the most challenging of times, we are going to cause problems and costs for society down the road. We're already doing that.

But point being - in general we should want to decrease the abortions I'd hope - obviously without making it a crime to have abortions. There are always going to be problems, but some of them pale in comparison to the ultimate decision. I agree that more support has to be given to the mother. I think where we differ is that I'd give more support to those willing to put their baby up for adoption - as long as there are so many people willing to adopt.

[gtn130]

While I was waiting in line at the abortion clinic (line was out the door here in deep blue Northern Virginia), I saw this on Twitter:

Read on Twitter

Remember how deeply concerned conservatives were about the Clinton Foundation? Pay-to-play!!!

[pancakes3]

if you want to decrease abortions, the solution is to increase access to birth control. that's all there is to it. not more streamlined adoption processes, not slut-shaming, not anything else. even the criminalization of abortions will do anything to decrease abortions.

that's where the defunding of planned parenthood, and the lobbying against providing plan B, or RU 486, or birth control in general is completely antithetical to the cause of limiting abortion.

and of course, the entire underlying root problem of poverty.

having long paragraphs devoted to calling abortions child murder but demonizing planned parenthood, ignoring birth control, and turning a blind eye to poverty is really a complete under-thinking of the issue.

[I_Like_Dirt]

But point being - in general we should want to decrease the abortions I'd hope - obviously without making it a crime to have abortions. There are always going to be problems, but some of them pale in comparison to the ultimate decision. I agree that more support has to be given to the mother. I think where we differ is that I'd give more support to those willing to put their baby up for adoption - as long as there are so many people willing to adopt.

I agree with the idea that we should want to decrease abortions. We should also want to decrease maternal mortality and other health related issues there. Making abortion illegal doesn't necessarily help either of those issues any more than prohibition prevented alcohol abuse/addiction or others from being the victim of crime related to alcohol.

The point here is that supporting would-be mothers through societal supports to maintain careers, provide for the children, health care, etc. IS that solution. It doesn't eliminate abortion entirely but it changes the decision making process to point where abortion no longer seems like a better option in more cases. A lot of people arguing for making abortion illegal (including daoneandonly, for example) aren't really interested in supporting those would-be mothers, feeling as though they should face the consequences of their actions as though it's some form of external punishment, which beyond simply placing all that punishment on the women for actions that were definitely not just of their own making also turns the concept of children into punishment, which is flat out backwards.

Create better health care for women. Better availability of birth control. Better supports in terms of not sacrificing their careers by having to put things on hold for any part of the pregnancy or afterwards. Better access to child care. Those kinds of things would go a long way towards ending abortion. If you look at either party, the candidate who's platform probably prevents the most abortions is Elizabeth Warren but those striving to prevent abortion aren't flocking to her cause because they're more interested in banning it. Whether you like her or not (and there are valid reasons for both opinions), her policies on abortion would easily be the most effective and she doesn't even appear to see it as an abortion issue but rather a human one.

And yes, adoptions can play a role, but it's a woefully misunderstood role and it's a role that is slowly closing as other countries close their doors over abuses of wealthy human traffickers - though they do create revenue that way. This is a situation where society is effectively saying that it has no interest in holding men accountable for their actions because it's too hard or something to that effect, and so the women need to deal with the health risks, the children, and all of the fallout but they aren't interested in supporting the women at all - which as a result inherently and directly creates a society that leans more towards men who don't suffer those same consequences. Think about it for a second. If we've created a country where, given all the options, women are choosing abortion because they're concerned about the other alternatives, and it isn't a life or death case on their part (all too frequently it is), then perhaps we need to do a bit better on the kind of country we've created.

[dckingsfan]

Court further notes that it is not plaintiff's job to educate defendant about how women would be negatively impacted. Defendant's claim of no negative impact is prima facie evidence of zero knowledge and therefore inability to argue persuasively on subject.

Zonk switching careers to legal council. Actually, what is the intersection of law and economics?

[Zonkerbl]

Court further notes that it is not plaintiff's job to educate defendant about how women would be negatively impacted. Defendant's claim of no negative impact is prima facie evidence of zero knowledge and therefore inability to argue persuasively on subject.

Zonk switching careers to legal council. Actually, what is the intersection of law and economics?

Regulation. Government interventions to correct market failures. I did that for six years at Commerce, had to fight a lot with lawyers, read a lot of court decisions. That and lawyers are very mathematical in thinking so it wouldn't be that tough a switch for me. I've thought about it.