Shams: Jazz trade for Conley...

[sipclip]

Neither of those teams are our biggest hump to get over. That hump has been replaced by the nuggets, lakers, blazers and soon to be the clippers after free agency hits. Also the mavs could make a massive rise with the addition of KP and a key free agent. Overall the west is going to look a hell of a lot scarier in 3 weeks after free agency hits.

I forgot about the Mavs. We'll see on them.

But surely the Warriors and Rockets have been the top 2 teams in the league the last two seasons, no? I think they've had a pretty big gap on the competition.

After that, we have a bunch of teams super close to each other with us in the mix. And besides Clippers and Indy, I don't think anyone has anywhere to turn to make big improvements. Some will take small steps back. Conley might be the difference there for us.

They had been the biggest hump and they are still dangerous but those other teams flat out scare me. The nugs were really good last year and young as hell. They were also killed by injuries. They still have so much room for improvement that it is a little scary.

The lakers now have 2 of the top 5 players in the world and may add Irving or Walker. They won't have much depth but we all know that they will have plenty of ring chasers join them to help.

The blazers similar to the nuggets have the internal pieces to continue to get better. They also get Nurkic back which is a huge upgrade over Kanter on the defensive end while a similar level offensively. The key player for them is Zach Collins though. He made a lot of progress this year and I expect him to make a big jump next year. They have other young players as well that I really like in Layman and Simons.

Unfortunately I'm looking around the west and we just made our move but I don't think it is even close to being enough.

[sipclip]

I will say this, I think Conley is the 6th best point guard in the league right now (behind Curry, Lillard, Kemba, Jrue, and Irving, in that order) ... so if that evaluation is correct maybe I'm wrong and this is a good trade. I just don't like what a short term deal this is. You basically have to hope he has Steve Nash's trajectory (best years: 30-37). Conley has had his two best years in two of the last three seasons (missed one) so there is hope that he's actually better - especially in a different system that has two amazing PnR threats and a dynamic backcourt scorer.

He is not the 6th best pg in the nba.

Curry
Westbrook
Lillard
Kemba
Jrue
Irving
Russell
Trae Young
Ben Simmons
Lowry
CP

Those are 10 players right there that I view as better than Conley. Then you have the youngsters in Fox and Murray that I expect to surpass him by next year.

Right now he is better than Russell, Young, Lowry, and Paul, and I wouldn't call Simmons a point guard, but if you do ... 7th. Next year Russell and Young could be better, but as of today - that's just not the case.

He is not better than those guys. We can say that they are all in the same tier but he isn't better.

[reapaman]

I know whats done is done, but why couldn't this trade been made after we tried to sign someone in free agency?

If we signed someone or not, we could've made the numbers work from my calculations and imo Conley would've still been available.

Could be wrong, but I think DL jumped the gun on this one.

[sipclip]

That's fair.

But if he just has to be the third best player on the team. We should be comparing him to third options.

The problem is our so called top 2 players at this point are extremely flawed. Gobert is a complete liability against a certain style of basketball and Mitchell at this point is simply an undersized shooting guard with a really shaky outside shot. When your top 2 guys are that flawed I think you need elite depth to make up for it. Also the window is so damn tight now to win but we have no other assets to get better and I don't trust Lindsey and Zanik in free agency to this point. Hopefully they prove me wrong but I think odds are we end up signing a bunch of vets in their 30's that are well past their prime.

Yeah, I can see where you're coming from. If you're not in on Mitchell and Gobert, this looks like a mistake.

But I wanna see them push the envelope during Mitchell's rookie contract. This seems like the best option to me. Could work out. All we really lost was a shot at a pick in a weak draft tomorrow, and then a probably late 2022 first. I won't miss much for having a point guard with a real life jump shot. Plus, I think this will show us a lot about how viable Mitchell is. If he can't make it to the next level with a proper backcourt running mate, maybe it is time to move on from him.

We lost out on a lot more than that. We lost out on last years pick who actually showed something at the end of the year. Contrary to what you say this looks like a loaded draft in our draft range. We won't know for sure until a few years. The future pick protection is horrible because that 2022 draft is when highschool kids are likely to be allowed back in so you will essentially have 2yrs worth of elite talent. That could turn it into the deepest draft ever. Then of course the biggest loss is the capspace that we could have used to sign some solid role players.

[Luigi]

Neither of those teams are our biggest hump to get over. That hump has been replaced by the nuggets, lakers, blazers and soon to be the clippers after free agency hits. Also the mavs could make a massive rise with the addition of KP and a key free agent. Overall the west is going to look a hell of a lot scarier in 3 weeks after free agency hits.

I forgot about the Mavs. We'll see on them.

But surely the Warriors and Rockets have been the top 2 teams in the league the last two seasons, no? I think they've had a pretty big gap on the competition.

After that, we have a bunch of teams super close to each other with us in the mix. And besides Clippers and Indy, I don't think anyone has anywhere to turn to make big improvements. Some will take small steps back. Conley might be the difference there for us.

They had been the biggest hump and they are still dangerous but those other teams flat out scare me. The nugs were really good last year and young as hell. They were also killed by injuries. They still have so much room for improvement that it is a little scary.

The lakers now have 2 of the top 5 players in the world and may add Irving or Walker. They won't have much depth but we all know that they will have plenty of ring chasers join them to help.

The blazers similar to the nuggets have the internal pieces to continue to get better. They also get Nurkic back which is a huge upgrade over Kanter on the defensive end while a similar level offensively. The key player for them is Zach Collins though. He made a lot of progress this year and I expect him to make a big jump next year. They have other young players as well that I really like in Layman and Simons.

Unfortunately I'm looking around the west and we just made our move but I don't think it is even close to being enough.

I think the Nuggets looked better than they really are by tanking to get a favorable playoff matchup. Even that backfired on them. They had a nice regular season run, but they stunk against good teams all year. They'll develop internally. They might lose millsap, too. This also propped up the Blazers. It's true they'll get back Nurkic, that'll be big. But it's the same team that dissapointed in the playoffs two years ago. If Conley works out, we have potential to be a good bit better. But he could get hurt, or just not fit that well. I'm just glad we're going for it.

I am a big Lebron fan, but I honestly think he's out of the top 10 this year. He really only plays one ball dominant kind of basketball, and when he loses a step to age, it won't be that effective. And I've always thought Davis was overrated. I could be dead wrong on this, but I think the Lakers are a step below the fray. But I should wait to see the rest of their summer. I'm thinking they can't fill out the roster well enough to even keep up with the other serious west teams.

We'll have to watch the rest of the moves this year. Clippers are dangerous, but they might lose a lot of pieces. They might get b-listers.

[sipclip]

I know whats done is done, but why couldn't this trade been made after we tried to sign someone in free agency?

If we signed someone or not, we could've made the numbers work from my calculations and imo Conley would've still been available.

Could be wrong, but I think DL jumped the gun on this one.

The stupid thing is that a guy like Spencer Dinwiddie makes even more sense than Conley and we probably could have gotten him for our 1st rd pick. He actually fits with the age of Mitchell and Gobert and is locked in for 3yrs at a reasonable price.

[Luigi]

We lost out on a lot more than that. We lost out on last years pick who actually showed something at the end of the year. Contrary to what you say this looks like a loaded draft in our draft range. We won't know for sure until a few years. The future pick protection is horrible because that 2022 draft is when highschool kids are likely to be allowed back in so you will essentially have 2yrs worth of elite talent. That could turn it into the deepest draft ever. Then of course the biggest loss is the capspace that we could have used to sign some solid role players.

I think Allen stinks. He was supposed to be NBA ready, he's old for a rookie, and he could barely get on the floor. We already lost that pick, imo. He's probably not worth the rookie salary he has.

The protection hurts. But we gave them a bunch of filler. This year's pick doesn't have a ton of value. We got a good player in Conley. He should be our 3rd best player, which I think is more than a roleplayer. We should have done it with Rubio and 2 firsts at the deadline. Maybe they wanted Exum (I would pack his bags for him, but now we hold onto that experiment).

Probably two late firsts, I can live with that for the chance to go for it.

https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/azxkas/double_draft_in_2022_is_a_myth_the_statistical/
I thought this was interesting.

[stitches]

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/27008970/mike-conley-trade-puts-utah-finals-contention

[VCfor3]

We lost out on a lot more than that. We lost out on last years pick who actually showed something at the end of the year. Contrary to what you say this looks like a loaded draft in our draft range. We won't know for sure until a few years. The future pick protection is horrible because that 2022 draft is when highschool kids are likely to be allowed back in so you will essentially have 2yrs worth of elite talent. That could turn it into the deepest draft ever. Then of course the biggest loss is the capspace that we could have used to sign some solid role players.

I think Allen stinks. He was supposed to be NBA ready, he's old for a rookie, and he could barely get on the floor. We already lost that pick, imo. He's probably not worth the rookie salary he has.

The protection hurts. But we gave them a bunch of filler. This year's pick doesn't have a ton of value. We got a good player in Conley. He should be our 3rd best player, which I think is more than a roleplayer. We should have done it with Rubio and 2 firsts at the deadline. Maybe they wanted Exum (I would pack his bags for him, but now we hold onto that experiment).

Probably two late firsts, I can live with that for the chance to go for it.

https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/azxkas/double_draft_in_2022_is_a_myth_the_statistical/
I thought this was interesting.

I was actually going to ask what you guys thought of Allen. I know he's older and the stats are meh but he didn't get much playing time so small sample. Does he look like a rotation player in the future? Will he have his TOs declined?

[babyjax13]

We lost out on a lot more than that. We lost out on last years pick who actually showed something at the end of the year. Contrary to what you say this looks like a loaded draft in our draft range. We won't know for sure until a few years. The future pick protection is horrible because that 2022 draft is when highschool kids are likely to be allowed back in so you will essentially have 2yrs worth of elite talent. That could turn it into the deepest draft ever. Then of course the biggest loss is the capspace that we could have used to sign some solid role players.

I think Allen stinks. He was supposed to be NBA ready, he's old for a rookie, and he could barely get on the floor. We already lost that pick, imo. He's probably not worth the rookie salary he has.

The protection hurts. But we gave them a bunch of filler. This year's pick doesn't have a ton of value. We got a good player in Conley. He should be our 3rd best player, which I think is more than a roleplayer. We should have done it with Rubio and 2 firsts at the deadline. Maybe they wanted Exum (I would pack his bags for him, but now we hold onto that experiment).

Probably two late firsts, I can live with that for the chance to go for it.

https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/azxkas/double_draft_in_2022_is_a_myth_the_statistical/
I thought this was interesting.

I was actually going to ask what you guys thought of Allen. I know he's older and the stats are meh but he didn't get much playing time so small sample. Does he look like a rotation player in the future? Will he have his TOs declined?

His upside is as a role player that can hit the three pretty consistently, makes good decisions, and is sub-par defensively. He's not a bad piece at all, but his upside isn't high.

[sipclip]

We lost out on a lot more than that. We lost out on last years pick who actually showed something at the end of the year. Contrary to what you say this looks like a loaded draft in our draft range. We won't know for sure until a few years. The future pick protection is horrible because that 2022 draft is when highschool kids are likely to be allowed back in so you will essentially have 2yrs worth of elite talent. That could turn it into the deepest draft ever. Then of course the biggest loss is the capspace that we could have used to sign some solid role players.

I think Allen stinks. He was supposed to be NBA ready, he's old for a rookie, and he could barely get on the floor. We already lost that pick, imo. He's probably not worth the rookie salary he has.

The protection hurts. But we gave them a bunch of filler. This year's pick doesn't have a ton of value. We got a good player in Conley. He should be our 3rd best player, which I think is more than a roleplayer. We should have done it with Rubio and 2 firsts at the deadline. Maybe they wanted Exum (I would pack his bags for him, but now we hold onto that experiment).

Probably two late firsts, I can live with that for the chance to go for it.

https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/azxkas/double_draft_in_2022_is_a_myth_the_statistical/
I thought this was interesting.

I was actually going to ask what you guys thought of Allen. I know he's older and the stats are meh but he didn't get much playing time so small sample. Does he look like a rotation player in the future? Will he have his TOs declined?

It is too early to say. He was awful all year and then was force fed minutes the last few games and looked solid. Pretty much everyone here hated the pick to begin with but that was more so because there were better prospects on the board than thinking he was a horrible player. I think in the end he ends up being a solid 3rd or 4th guard in a rotation.

Sent from my SM-G960U using RealGM mobile app

[Stern Fixer]

I know whats done is done, but why couldn't this trade been made after we tried to sign someone in free agency?

If we signed someone or not, we could've made the numbers work from my calculations and imo Conley would've still been available.

Could be wrong, but I think DL jumped the gun on this one.

I don't think you wait and hope in a situation like this and allow somebody else to get the upper hand. The fact that we had been in negotiations that broke off regular season helped us to be first in line and get the deal done. Anyway I like this deal better than the original offer that included Favors - maybe the most underrated player on the Jazz IMO. Now we walk away having lost very little in terms of contributing players and getting exactly what we needed in Conley I believe. Sure, I'll miss Crowder, but realistically, he's replaceable (the bruise brothers - either Portis or Mirotic), anyway his stats were not great; Korver, but let's face it, he's over the hill; and I do like Grayson and feel he has potential, but so far really nothing on paper. Maybe we just resign Thabo now - he looked pretty good end of the season.

PS I'm ecstatic that this went trough so fast actually. I knew something was up yesterday when I saw the report by Shams, but the fact that we are a team courting Bobby Portis concerned me as I thought that meant Favors was in the mix again. Good job DL - let's get Portis now!

[SoCalJazzFan]

The ONLY way that the Jazz are going to get a player for more than $4.76M is to waive or trade Favors (or Exum, but that is doubtful too).

[sipclip]

I know whats done is done, but why couldn't this trade been made after we tried to sign someone in free agency?

If we signed someone or not, we could've made the numbers work from my calculations and imo Conley would've still been available.

Could be wrong, but I think DL jumped the gun on this one.

I don't think you wait and hope in a situation like this and allow somebody else to get the upper hand. The fact that we had been in negotiations that broke off regular season helped us to be first in line and get the deal done. Anyway I like this deal better than the original offer that included Favors - maybe the most underrated player on the Jazz IMO. Now we walk away having lost very little in terms of contributing players and getting exactly what we needed in Conley I believe. Sure, I'll miss Crowder, but realistically, he's replaceable (the bruise brothers - either Portis or Mirotic), anyway his stats were not great; Korver, but let's face it, he's over the hill; and I do like Grayson and feel he has potential, but so far really nothing on paper. Maybe we just resign Thabo now - he looked pretty good end of the season.

PS I'm ecstatic that this went trough so fast actually. I knew something was up yesterday when I saw the report by Shams, but the fact that we are a team courting Bobby Portis concerned me as I thought that meant Favors was in the mix again. Good job DL - let's get Portis now!

I would be very excited about a possible sign and trade of Favors for Portis on a 4yr 65-70 mil contract. All of a sudden that makes the starting lineup really good with the spacing for Mitchell and Conley to attack.

Sent from my SM-G960U using RealGM mobile app

[Luigi]

I'm excited to see how Conley affects the other guys.

- Gobert could make yet another step forward on offense. Rubio never quite had lob skills, and you didn't have to cover his pull up on a pnr.
- Favors could look good in the pnr, too.
- Ingles will be asked to run the offense less often. Hopefully that means his league leading 3pt% returns.
- Mitchel should have an easier look at the defense now with Conley on the court next to him, and a more reasonable offensive load. And he'll get more catch and shoot opportunities.

[SoCalJazzFan]

The Jazz appear to have negotiated against themselves somewhat. If they were the only ones willing to give a second FRP, I have no idea why it has the protections it has.

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/27008970/mike-conley-trade-puts-utah-finals-contention

The Grizzlies took a slight risk in waiting until now to deal Conley instead of acting at the trade deadline, but it ended up costing them nothing beyond the chance to clear more 2019-20 salary. They might have come out better for it.

They always wanted two first-round picks, and they got them. The Detroit Pistons opted against paying that price, sources say, and even had the Pistons agreed, Memphis might have been stuck with Reggie Jackson. The Pacers would not surrender two first-round picks and Aaron Holiday, sources say.

[zero24gravity]

I will say this, I think Conley is the 6th best point guard in the league right now (behind Curry, Lillard, Kemba, Jrue, and Irving, in that order) ... so if that evaluation is correct maybe I'm wrong and this is a good trade. I just don't like what a short term deal this is. You basically have to hope he has Steve Nash's trajectory (best years: 30-37). Conley has had his two best years in two of the last three seasons (missed one) so there is hope that he's actually better - especially in a different system that has two amazing PnR threats and a dynamic backcourt scorer.

He is not the 6th best pg in the nba.

Curry
Westbrook
Lillard
Kemba
Jrue
Irving
Russell
Trae Young
Ben Simmons
Lowry
CP

Those are 10 players right there that I view as better than Conley. Then you have the youngsters in Fox and Murray that I expect to surpass him by next year.

These are lists based on opinion, so there is no wrong answer. Still, I refute the idea that Young is near Conley. Lowry is nice, but getting worse. I put Conley ahead of him. Simmons? Yuck. Russell .... I don't think so, at least not yet.

Curry (although I have a feeling next season is going to bring out all his weaknesses), Westbrook, Lillard, Kemba, Irving are the only PG's I see above Conley. CP (age, injury, attitude) & Jrue are even, IMO.

I guess you could also say Harden is ahead of him as a PG, especially since it looks like the CP3/Harden romance is ending.

[Luigi]

The Jazz appear to have negotiated against themselves somewhat. If they were the only ones willing to give a second FRP, I have no idea why it has the protections it has.

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/27008970/mike-conley-trade-puts-utah-finals-contention

The Grizzlies took a slight risk in waiting until now to deal Conley instead of acting at the trade deadline, but it ended up costing them nothing beyond the chance to clear more 2019-20 salary. They might have come out better for it.

They always wanted two first-round picks, and they got them. The Detroit Pistons opted against paying that price, sources say, and even had the Pistons agreed, Memphis might have been stuck with Reggie Jackson. The Pacers would not surrender two first-round picks and Aaron Holiday, sources say.

Because our picks are significantly less valuable than Detroit's, or those available to Boston. We're consistently good.

[Luigi]

I know whats done is done, but why couldn't this trade been made after we tried to sign someone in free agency?

If we signed someone or not, we could've made the numbers work from my calculations and imo Conley would've still been available.

Could be wrong, but I think DL jumped the gun on this one.

I don't think you wait and hope in a situation like this and allow somebody else to get the upper hand. The fact that we had been in negotiations that broke off regular season helped us to be first in line and get the deal done. Anyway I like this deal better than the original offer that included Favors - maybe the most underrated player on the Jazz IMO. Now we walk away having lost very little in terms of contributing players and getting exactly what we needed in Conley I believe. Sure, I'll miss Crowder, but realistically, he's replaceable (the bruise brothers - either Portis or Mirotic), anyway his stats were not great; Korver, but let's face it, he's over the hill; and I do like Grayson and feel he has potential, but so far really nothing on paper. Maybe we just resign Thabo now - he looked pretty good end of the season.

PS I'm ecstatic that this went trough so fast actually. I knew something was up yesterday when I saw the report by Shams, but the fact that we are a team courting Bobby Portis concerned me as I thought that meant Favors was in the mix again. Good job DL - let's get Portis now!

I can't get that image out of my head of Thabo missing on shots in the playoffs just recently. But we did seem to like him in the past. Get him on the anti-aging creams and bring him back for the minimum.

[Stern Fixer]

I know whats done is done, but why couldn't this trade been made after we tried to sign someone in free agency?

If we signed someone or not, we could've made the numbers work from my calculations and imo Conley would've still been available.

Could be wrong, but I think DL jumped the gun on this one.

I don't think you wait and hope in a situation like this and allow somebody else to get the upper hand. The fact that we had been in negotiations that broke off regular season helped us to be first in line and get the deal done. Anyway I like this deal better than the original offer that included Favors - maybe the most underrated player on the Jazz IMO. Now we walk away having lost very little in terms of contributing players and getting exactly what we needed in Conley I believe. Sure, I'll miss Crowder, but realistically, he's replaceable (the bruise brothers - either Portis or Mirotic), anyway his stats were not great; Korver, but let's face it, he's over the hill; and I do like Grayson and feel he has potential, but so far really nothing on paper. Maybe we just resign Thabo now - he looked pretty good end of the season.

PS I'm ecstatic that this went trough so fast actually. I knew something was up yesterday when I saw the report by Shams, but the fact that we are a team courting Bobby Portis concerned me as I thought that meant Favors was in the mix again. Good job DL - let's get Portis now!

I would be very excited about a possible sign and trade of Favors for Portis on a 4yr 65-70 mil contract. All of a sudden that makes the starting lineup really good with the spacing for Mitchell and Conley to attack.

Sent from my SM-G960U using RealGM mobile app

I do respect where you're coming from SC, but then you're giving up possibly the best backup center & utility big man in the league in Faves. I know he's no stretch four, but he's so valuable in so many other ways. I said it back when we tried to do this deal the first time - I'd still rather lose Exum than Favors to clear some space. I thought I'd never say it, but Ingles looked pretty expendable in that Houston series as well.