Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 I: Big decisions on the horizon

[KillMonger]

Yo we really trying to sell the second rounder?

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[MartinsIzAfraud]

Read on Twitter

[Def Swami]

Spoiler:

Except that math is wrong.

Vucevic literally took the 2nd most 4Q FGA's (behind Ross - who btw will be out the door asap if Vuc isn't resigned). Vucevic also scored the second most points in the 4Q (again behind Ross). That's total and per game. Plus he had the highest 4Q PIE on the team.

In clutch situations (defined by NBA.com as the final 5 minutes of games with 5pt difference), he literally took the most FGA's and he was 2nd in Points (behind Fournier). Again total and per game.

Vuc took the shots, but he was terrible at them. 43% TS, which was the worst amongst our 6 most common players on the court in clutch situations, and even worse than Isaac who was 45%. Vuc shot 37.8% in clutch situations overall, which were mostly 2's. Of the few 3's he took in these situations, he shot just 6.3%. He rarely got to the FT line, but even when he did, he shot 69.7% from the line.

That's why in the playoffs I was saying it wasn't surprising, because Vuc doesn't handle pressure well, at all. He rushes shots, doesn't have the ability to get separation from his defender, and even guards have been enough to defend him and force him into a bad shot when he's got the advantage on a switch.

That's not to say that the others did a lot to help him. But, as far as him being a reliable offensive option in the 4th, Vuc is one of the worst in the league in those situations, particularly when compared to players of his 'calibre'.

Also, the logic of how that person is just assuming PPG will upscale is way off. Birch/Bamba played vs 2nd/3d string bigs and bench defenses. Assuming they'll just suddenly become more skilled by adding minutes to compete vs the much more skilled, more physically gifted and more experienced bigs and opposing starting defenses is just flawed.

What type of different offense do you run? The Magic don't have the ball handlers or type of shooters that can score of the bounce to play a pace/space type of transition game...not that Clifford would EVER play in that style. So you'd probably have to fire him first as that's a square peg in a round hole situation.

There is a reason why when Vucevic was on the floor the Offensive Rating was 109.7...but as soon as he sat it cratered to a 100.3 Offensive Rating. That's a ridiculous 9.4 differential.

Vucevic isn't a superstar or a max player or even a real #1 option for a contender level roster...but the logic that what he does bring can just be cobbled together with spare parts is unrealistic.

We've only got a 1 game sample from last season of the team sans Vuc, which was the final game of the season. Here's the boxscore.

It's impossible to draw a long term conclusion from that game as to how the team would handle a full season without Vuc, but in this one example, the points did upscale. It would be ridiculous to assume Gordon could average 27ppg, or Ross averages 35ppg to make that result happen every time.

In terms of a difference offense, you'd have to add the players to build the kind of offense you want. A backcourt that's capable of scoring every night, unlike DJ and Fournier. If we had a better backcourt, then we could run an offense more like what Clifford ran with Zeller/Williams/MKG/Batum/Walker - which was the lineup from his most successful season in Charlotte.

The offensive rating dip isn't good, but when discussing Vuc's impact as a scorer on the team, I don't think they factor in how effective and influential the pure defensive hustle of our 2nd units was. Birch grabbed, what felt like, many more offensive rebounds and 2nd chance points, MCW was smothering on defense, and whilst the play was ugly and inefficient, it more often than not kept us ahead of the opposition. I'm not proposing that as a starting lineup, just pointing out that chemistry can still bee a big factor on trading points.

Removing Vuc would be a sign of WeHam addressing the larger concern, that we don't have a strong enough backcourt or perimeter playmakers yet. Hopefully the changes they make to that would offset the loss of Vuc (+ Ross), whilst a cheaper role-playing big man just gets the job done.

Although, in contradiction to the way I'm portraying Vuc there, he might share a narrative with someone like DeRozan. Talented guy, great regular season guy, not the best post season career, probably best to being a #3 option in a contending offense, but can help a team be a playoff contender each year. We re-sign him, for a handsome price and maybe a tad above true market value, but he does his job for the next 2 seasons, and if he maintains this standard of play, could be part of a package that lands us a real upgrade.

Which I feel has been your point all along, and maybe you've even used this exact example, I'm not sure. But I don't think I've acknowledged that I think that's a perfectly safe option, and I wouldn't be unhappy about it. I have my preferences which don't involve him, but I do see a strong path going forwards if we were to just keep Vuc, and so I see the value in keeping him, because he's a great player and an asset. I'm really indifferent overall, so either works - as long as he's on a fair deal (which is everyone's caveat, anyway). I'm confident he'll continue to thrive with Clifford, and if we can find a way to get him some legitimate help, he'd be a great piece to have if they're capable of stepping up when defenses stifle, or in pressure situations.

But in an offseason which has the potential for big changes, as an armchair GM, it's more fun to entertain the theatre of big changes, for me.

I recall claiming that Vucevic has become our DeRozan in one of the playoff game threads after he was catching a ton of heat. He absolutely deserves the criticism for how short he came up. But, there are a lot of players in the league who have similar struggles throughout their career and received intense criticism from their fanbase during the playoffs. If we re-sign Vucevic, he basically becomes our DeRozan. Really good player making a ton of money to help keep the team afloat in the regular season, but will never be good enough to lead a team deep into the playoffs. Those guys still have value throughout the league. Guys like DeRozan and an injured Blake Griffin, for example, were able to get moved after getting bigger pay days. It's why I still believe keeping Vucevic the player and asset is more advantageous for us than letting him walk.

But, I agree about the entertainment of big changes. If the Magic could renounce everyone and find a way to add someone like D'Angelo Russell who fits the timeline and reforms the offense, then I'm all for it. Just hard to see right now.

[Def Swami]

This is pro basketball league ,not charity event to give playing time for somebody. Earn your min. There are guys like Whiteside who were out of nba to earn $27M a year. There are guys like Thabeet who were lottery picks and out of nba in few years.
For we all know, there is no much difference today between Bamba and Maker. Can he be better ? Sure. But prove it by being at least servicable for start.

I'd argue that many rookies are not serviceable from the start but teams invest in them because they don't want to get into a Hezonja situation where they're required to make a decision if they're even worth extending. (Hell, Wiggins got a max contract from not even being serviceable and just putting up stats.) Our franchise's job is to make sure we KNOW what we have in guys and that we get an answer on a wasted year (aka tanking). It makes sense that if we wanted to be good this year, which took a while tbh, but ended up in playoffs, so playing Bamba the minutes we did was fine. That's not the issue necessarily. It's just that he shouldn't have to be held to some imaginary talent level bar or he can't play type of judgment.

We know he was a step slow and looked overwhelmed a good amount just by watching him, but we did see him show flashes of great play and he was starting to put it together on the defensive end and knowing his role for the team before he got injured. Those are pluses. People just like to lump the stats together and say he was underwhelming right away because it's easy and simple to do that just by looking at stats and watching the games, but we did legitimately see what a force he could be at times too. It's ultimately up to him, his body and effort/attitude towards the game to stay on court as it is for every player, but he should and will get the opportunities he deserves next year IMO.

And while the stats are also true, nobody can say with a straight face that when your guards are Jerian Grant and Jonathon Simmons you are being given a fair chance when the ball isn't coming your way after doing "the right thing" to get open.

Same can be said for AG and Isaac too. Team has done a disservice to these players by not upgrading their guard play in the 5 whole years AG has been here; I feel like my evaluation of AG is always a little off because it.

[yoyojw17]

That's exactly my point though. He didn't play well, but I'm saying there IS no help when 90% of your lineup is with backup guards that can't pass.. and I wouldn't say DJ or Fournier is much of an upgrade in the passing department either. It can be both that he struggled and that he did not have an ideal situation around him which is fine because it's only his rookie year and he needs to learn to play in whatever sort of lineups.

And the other 10% is with a shooting guard in a point guards body. lol. DJ is not really a PG... love him as a back up.... and it would be great if we had a playmaking sg. Fultz would change the game for many..... pick n roll all day erryday!!!

[Skin]

You have a weird infatuation with incorrectly interpreting what I say so that it matches what you want me to believe.

I just don't want to overpay players who will keep us in cap purgatory and not help us become true contenders.

I'm not pleased with creating a team who maxes out as a late lottery or early playoff exit team. Rather preserve cap flexibility and develop youth.

Ie. I would rather sign Horford for 3 years than Vuc for 4 or 5... and I've also said that I would rather sign Vuc for big dollars at 2 years, 3 at the most, rather than sign him long term for 4 or 5 years. I just don't believe he would take it a short term deal. I know that goes against what you want me to believe so it doesn't stick in your head... so whatevers.

Wrong, I just call out your bias and you try to spin out of it, constantly back tracking and having convenient amnesia.

You are constantly spouting off anti-Vucevic hate, stop acting like you don't and are just misunderstood.

I have showed you cap projections that totally debunk your so called "cap purgatory" theory for the Magic. You just blow them off and pretend they don't exist.

You don't know what you want because every great team has to go through good for multiple seasons...only way to avoid that is to be a a major NBA market/destination city like LA that always has FA options or you bottom out and play the tank Russian roulette. Being a first round team is a stage, not an endpoint. You are so scared of tread milling in the middle, that you don't even realize that what you propose is the exact same tread mill scenario except you are doing it as a bottom feeder.

The legendary backtracker calling me a backtracker. Lol ok. You only listen to what you want to hear. Everyone knows your spiel. If I'm a Vuc hater, you're a Bamba hater. Vuc will be perfect on a team like OKC, LAL or POR where he isn't the #1 or #2 scoring option and they are in legit position to chase the championship.

You are right about most teams needing to make progressions... You keep acting like you're teaching us some new idea or something. Is common damn sense.
Especially if you're talking about a rebuild based off youth progression.

[ezzzp]

The legendary backtracker calling me a backtracker. Lol ok. You only listen to what you want to hear. Everyone knows your spiel. If I'm a Vuc hater, you're a Bamba hater. Vuc will be perfect on a team like OKC, LAL or POR where he isn't the #1 or #2 scoring option and they are in legit position to chase the championship.

You are right about most teams needing to make progressions... You keep acting like you're teaching us some new idea or something. Is common damn sense.
Especially if you're talking about a rebuild based off youth progression.

LMAO what a bunch of garbage.

I’m the opposite of a Bamba hater. I actually want the Magic to develop him the right way so that he has the best chance to succeed and so that the Magic have the best shot at maximizing his talent AND retain him. Unlike you who just want to put him in a situation to fail so that in two years you can recycle it and start screaming tank for x college player who has “potential” ...rinse repeat

[VFX]

The legendary backtracker calling me a backtracker. Lol ok. You only listen to what you want to hear. Everyone knows your spiel. If I'm a Vuc hater, you're a Bamba hater. Vuc will be perfect on a team like OKC, LAL or POR where he isn't the #1 or #2 scoring option and they are in legit position to chase the championship.

You are right about most teams needing to make progressions... You keep acting like you're teaching us some new idea or something. Is common damn sense.
Especially if you're talking about a rebuild based off youth progression.

LMAO what a bunch of garbage.

I’m the opposite of a Bamba hater. I actually want the Magic to develop him the right way so that he has the best chance to succeed and so that the Magic have the best shot at maximizing his talent AND retain him. Unlike you who just want to put him in a situation to fail so that in two years you can recycle it and start screaming tank for x college player who has “potential” ...rinse repeat

Skin’s not actually calling you a Bamba hater. He’s saying he isn’t a Vuc hater....

Also, it’s more about not reinvesting in a #3 or #4 option moreso than Bamba replacing Vuc’s production. Bamba doesn’t need to play behind a $20+m Vucevic for 2-3 more years for “maximum development” and that doesn’t mean he’s being put “in a bad position” if he plays behind another C that doesn’t cost that much.

There you go with “tanking” talk again Is that your only argument against people wanting to go in a different direction? Or is that the “xenophobia” talking?

[Anti Chalmers]

Magic really needs Fultz to develop into an above average pg

[Bensational]

Spoiler:

Vuc took the shots, but he was terrible at them. 43% TS, which was the worst amongst our 6 most common players on the court in clutch situations, and even worse than Isaac who was 45%. Vuc shot 37.8% in clutch situations overall, which were mostly 2's. Of the few 3's he took in these situations, he shot just 6.3%. He rarely got to the FT line, but even when he did, he shot 69.7% from the line.

That's why in the playoffs I was saying it wasn't surprising, because Vuc doesn't handle pressure well, at all. He rushes shots, doesn't have the ability to get separation from his defender, and even guards have been enough to defend him and force him into a bad shot when he's got the advantage on a switch.

That's not to say that the others did a lot to help him. But, as far as him being a reliable offensive option in the 4th, Vuc is one of the worst in the league in those situations, particularly when compared to players of his 'calibre'.




We've only got a 1 game sample from last season of the team sans Vuc, which was the final game of the season. Here's the boxscore.

It's impossible to draw a long term conclusion from that game as to how the team would handle a full season without Vuc, but in this one example, the points did upscale. It would be ridiculous to assume Gordon could average 27ppg, or Ross averages 35ppg to make that result happen every time.

In terms of a difference offense, you'd have to add the players to build the kind of offense you want. A backcourt that's capable of scoring every night, unlike DJ and Fournier. If we had a better backcourt, then we could run an offense more like what Clifford ran with Zeller/Williams/MKG/Batum/Walker - which was the lineup from his most successful season in Charlotte.

The offensive rating dip isn't good, but when discussing Vuc's impact as a scorer on the team, I don't think they factor in how effective and influential the pure defensive hustle of our 2nd units was. Birch grabbed, what felt like, many more offensive rebounds and 2nd chance points, MCW was smothering on defense, and whilst the play was ugly and inefficient, it more often than not kept us ahead of the opposition. I'm not proposing that as a starting lineup, just pointing out that chemistry can still bee a big factor on trading points.

Removing Vuc would be a sign of WeHam addressing the larger concern, that we don't have a strong enough backcourt or perimeter playmakers yet. Hopefully the changes they make to that would offset the loss of Vuc (+ Ross), whilst a cheaper role-playing big man just gets the job done.

Although, in contradiction to the way I'm portraying Vuc there, he might share a narrative with someone like DeRozan. Talented guy, great regular season guy, not the best post season career, probably best to being a #3 option in a contending offense, but can help a team be a playoff contender each year. We re-sign him, for a handsome price and maybe a tad above true market value, but he does his job for the next 2 seasons, and if he maintains this standard of play, could be part of a package that lands us a real upgrade.

Which I feel has been your point all along, and maybe you've even used this exact example, I'm not sure. But I don't think I've acknowledged that I think that's a perfectly safe option, and I wouldn't be unhappy about it. I have my preferences which don't involve him, but I do see a strong path going forwards if we were to just keep Vuc, and so I see the value in keeping him, because he's a great player and an asset. I'm really indifferent overall, so either works - as long as he's on a fair deal (which is everyone's caveat, anyway). I'm confident he'll continue to thrive with Clifford, and if we can find a way to get him some legitimate help, he'd be a great piece to have if they're capable of stepping up when defenses stifle, or in pressure situations.

But in an offseason which has the potential for big changes, as an armchair GM, it's more fun to entertain the theatre of big changes, for me.

I recall claiming that Vucevic has become our DeRozan in one of the playoff game threads after he was catching a ton of heat. He absolutely deserves the criticism for how short he came up. But, there are a lot of players in the league who have similar struggles throughout their career and received intense criticism from their fanbase during the playoffs. If we re-sign Vucevic, he basically becomes our DeRozan. Really good player making a ton of money to help keep the team afloat in the regular season, but will never be good enough to lead a team deep into the playoffs. Those guys still have value throughout the league. Guys like DeRozan and an injured Blake Griffin, for example, were able to get moved after getting bigger pay days. It's why I still believe keeping Vucevic the player and asset is more advantageous for us than letting him walk.

But, I agree about the entertainment of big changes. If the Magic could renounce everyone and find a way to add someone like D'Angelo Russell who fits the timeline and reforms the offense, then I'm all for it. Just hard to see right now.

I also like entertaining big ways to keep Vuc and go a bit more all-in on becoming a 2nd round team.

I keep coming back to DeRozan as someone we might be able to get without having to give up BIGFu.

ORL: DeRozan + Hayward + White + Mills
BOS: Fournier + DJ
SAS: Gordon + Mozgov + #16

(BOS and SAS can negotiate who wants #16 at the expense of taking Moz's contract, and the other takes DJ).

Vuc/Bamba
Isaac
Hayward/Iwundu
DeRozan/Ross
White/Mills/Fultz

That's a 2nd round team if it clicks. Lots of firepower. Lots of potential.

[ezzzp]

Skin’s not actually calling you a Bamba hater. He’s saying he isn’t a Vuc hater....

Also, it’s more about not reinvesting in a #3 or #4 option moreso than Bamba replacing Vuc’s production. Bamba doesn’t need to play behind a $20+m Vucevic for 2-3 more years for “maximum development” and that doesn’t mean he’s being put “in a bad position” if he plays behind another C that doesn’t cost that much.

There you go with “tanking” talk again Is that your only argument against people wanting to go in a different direction? Or is that the “xenophobia” talking?

Oh is Skin asking you to defend his honor now? LMAO...and you don't know what you are talking about. Skin has been hating on Vucevic on this forum since at least 2015 when he would go on daily rants - before and after the draft - about wanting Willie Cauley-Stein to replace him. I stopped posting here for a while and when I came back this season he was still ranting the same anti-Vucevic vitriol he was before I left LOL.

You don't know anything about player development. But you know who does? The best GM's and FO's at player development, and their philosophy is to develop players gradually and in a winning competitive context. Right now, Vucevic is the Magic's best chance of maintaining that competitive context. Until there is a legitimate alternative to that, moving forward with him is the best option as long as it doesn't impact longterm flexibility. The low $20's price range that most estimate he'll get, is absolutely fine. That's investing in ALL player development and asset management, not just Bamba.

Hitting reset every other year is exactly why this team has been a dumpster fire, and people like you and Skin can't seem to grasp that. Luckily there is a FO in place now that seems to get it; they are moving gradually and methodically.

...and you really need to stop embarrassing yourself with that ridiculous 'not tanking' semantic argument.

[pepe1991]

Skin saying he is not Vuc hater is like me saying i'm not payton hater.

At least own it...

I joined forum in 2016 and one of first things i remember from here is his clear anti Vučević propaganda.
Through years i remember you pushing for: Thon Maker, being big fan of Biyombo and now last grasp for straws in anti Vučević agenda is love for WSC. Left with no other "options" you are so desparate that you hype up Bobby Portis. This are really desparare times for you, man.

What can i get from this?
- You suck at center evaluation, you litearlly love players who flat out don't belong in nba
- you would prefer Sean May over Vučević , just to feel happy

Also some people don't really propose tank, but their imaginary moves all seems to lead toward another 20-25 wins season.
In same time they ignore that Magic don't have max contract cap space slot to offer this year, that teams' best players won't be easly replaced (or replaced at all), that 2020 draft class is projected to be one of weakest in decade and that 2020 FA market is painfully bad.

[Skin]

The legendary backtracker calling me a backtracker. Lol ok. You only listen to what you want to hear. Everyone knows your spiel. If I'm a Vuc hater, you're a Bamba hater. Vuc will be perfect on a team like OKC, LAL or POR where he isn't the #1 or #2 scoring option and they are in legit position to chase the championship.

You are right about most teams needing to make progressions... You keep acting like you're teaching us some new idea or something. Is common damn sense.
Especially if you're talking about a rebuild based off youth progression.

LMAO what a bunch of garbage.

I’m the opposite of a Bamba hater. I actually want the Magic to develop him the right way so that he has the best chance to succeed and so that the Magic have the best shot at maximizing his talent AND retain him. Unlike you who just want to put him in a situation to fail so that in two years you can recycle it and start screaming tank for x college player who has “potential” ...rinse repeat

Matic said it... I didn't say you hate Bamba. But based on your vibe you definitely don't give any reason to show that you support him. You're a Debbie doubter in his talent and ability to meet expectations of a top 6 pick. Just like I am a doubter that Vuc needs to be here in order for its to be on the right path.

What you need to get over is this extremist idea that anyone who wants to the team to develop Bamba means we want him to be our starter when the season begins. If you truly believe in Bamba then you have to project him as a starter in the next 2-3 years. ...and that would mean benching Vuc if he signs a 4-5 year deal. ... and I don't want to deal with another hard-to-trade contract at that point.

[Skin]

Skin saying he is not Vuc hater is like me saying i'm not payton hater.

At least own it...

I joined forum in 2016 and one of first things i remember from here is his clear anti Vučević propaganda.
Through years i remember you pushing for: Thon Maker, being big fan of Biyombo and now last grasp for straws in anti Vučević agenda is love for WSC. Left with no other "options" you are so desparate that you hype up Bobby Portis. This are really desparare times for you, man.

What can i get from this?
- You suck at center evaluation, you litearlly love players who flat out don't belong in nba
- you would prefer Sean May over Vučević , just to feel happy

Also some people don't really propose tank, but their imaginary moves all seems to lead toward another 20-25 wins season.
In same time they ignore that Magic don't have max contract cap space slot to offer this year, that teams' best players won't be easly replaced (or replaced at all), that 2020 draft class is projected to be one of weakest in decade and that 2020 FA market is painfully bad.

I give credit to Vuc for his improvements over the years. He's become less hateable. But we can't give him a 4-5 year deal. I could tolerate a 3 year deal, but I don't think it's a "we need to do it or else" kinda situation.

You continue to show off your flaws by pointing out that since the 2020 FA class is perceived as weak (by you) that there's no other good way to spend Vuc's money.. that's so ridiculous in so many ways. Vuc's money will lock us up for more than 1 offseason buddy. Plus cap space can also be used in trades. Or we can the cap space on other FAs this summer.

Stop trying to rehash your memory of what I said in the past about players I supported because you are terribly inaccurate. And people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

[pepe1991]

Just because somebody is drafted high that doesn't mean he will be starter, he should be starter or that he is good or will ever become good.
That's wishful thinking that is based on " high pick = super talented" mindset that goes beyond basketball , to sacrifice - reward aspects of life. Fans feel like they sacrificed money, time and season for prospect during bad year so he has to be good ,great, elite to jusfty one bad year.

Reality calls - it does not mean anything.

There is reality of return value of draft picks through draft

2012- 9 out of 14 picks are not starters ( or not in nba any more)
2013- 9 out of 14 not starters
2014- 7/8 out of 14 not starters
2015 - 7 out of 14 not starters
2016 - 8 out of 14 not starters
2017- 7 out of 14 not starters


So yea, tell us more how your pick has to be starter within next 2,3 years

[pepe1991]

Skin saying he is not Vuc hater is like me saying i'm not payton hater.

At least own it...

I joined forum in 2016 and one of first things i remember from here is his clear anti Vučević propaganda.
Through years i remember you pushing for: Thon Maker, being big fan of Biyombo and now last grasp for straws in anti Vučević agenda is love for WSC. Left with no other "options" you are so desparate that you hype up Bobby Portis. This are really desparare times for you, man.

What can i get from this?
- You suck at center evaluation, you litearlly love players who flat out don't belong in nba
- you would prefer Sean May over Vučević , just to feel happy

Also some people don't really propose tank, but their imaginary moves all seems to lead toward another 20-25 wins season.
In same time they ignore that Magic don't have max contract cap space slot to offer this year, that teams' best players won't be easly replaced (or replaced at all), that 2020 draft class is projected to be one of weakest in decade and that 2020 FA market is painfully bad.

I give credit to Vuc for his improvements over the years. He's become less hateable. But we can't give him a 4-5 year deal. I could tolerate a 3 year deal, but I don't think it's a "we need to do it or else" kinda situation.

You continue to show off your flaws by pointing out that since the 2020 FA class is perceived as weak (by you) that there's no other good way to spend Vuc's money.. that's so ridiculous in so many ways. Vuc's money will lock us up for more than 1 offseason buddy. Plus cap space can also be used in trades. Or we can the cap space on other FAs this summer.

Stop trying to rehash your memory of what I said in the past about players I supported because you are terribly inaccurate. And people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

Dude, you literally had parade when Magic signed BIyombo.
Stop it.

. Vuc's money will lock us up for more than 1 offseason buddy.

Yet, his salary won't be as high as combined salary of Mozgov and Fultz, who are definition of dead money on Magic roster.
Yet, also you ignore that salary cap will expend next year.

But as usual you are not interested in facts , rather wiggling through half truths and agendas.

How is Maker doing ? Allstar game in near future?

[ezzzp]

Matic said it... I didn't say you hate Bamba. But based on your vibe you definitely don't give any reason to show that you support him. You're a Debbie doubter in his talent and ability to meet expectations of a top 6 pick. Just like I am a doubter that Vuc needs to be here in order for its to be on the right path.

What you need to get over is this extremist idea that anyone who wants to the team to develop Bamba means we want him to be our starter when the season begins. If you truly believe in Bamba then you have to project him as a starter in the next 2-3 years. ...and that would mean benching Vuc if he signs a 4-5 year deal. ... and I don't want to deal with another hard-to-trade contract at that point.

What you call "my vibe" is actually me showing facts about what stage he is at in his development.

I will not agree with your ridiculous notion to throw him into situation he's not physically capable of handling. I want him to be developed properly, and I also don't want to sacrifice the development of the rest of the young players just to give him more minutes he's not ready for.

Stop acting like you weren't talking about him as a starter this season recently...you backpedaled into "I didn't mean he needs to start when I said Vucevic is hurting his development" LMAO.

All this acting like your not anti-Vucevic...yea NOBODY believes you. You've been constantly hating on him since at least as far back as 2015.

If you remove Vucevic, you put the competitive context at risk. You are jeopardizing the best development context, not just for Bamba, but for Isaac, Fultz, Gordon etc.

Until there is a legitimate alternative to that, moving forward with him is the best option as long as it doesn't impact longterm flexibility. The low $20's price range that most estimate he'll get, is absolutely fine - I've shown you the projection. That's investing in ALL player development and asset management, not just Bamba.

Believing in Bamba does NOT mean that you can't sign Vucevic. That's totally ridiculous and totally naive to how player movement works in the NBA.

Hitting system reset every other year is exactly why this team and its player development has been a dumpster fire, yet fans like you can't seem to grasp that. Stability and continuity are what this young team needs.

[Skin]

Skin saying he is not Vuc hater is like me saying i'm not payton hater.

At least own it...

I joined forum in 2016 and one of first things i remember from here is his clear anti Vučević propaganda.
Through years i remember you pushing for: Thon Maker, being big fan of Biyombo and now last grasp for straws in anti Vučević agenda is love for WSC. Left with no other "options" you are so desparate that you hype up Bobby Portis. This are really desparare times for you, man.

What can i get from this?
- You suck at center evaluation, you litearlly love players who flat out don't belong in nba
- you would prefer Sean May over Vučević , just to feel happy

Also some people don't really propose tank, but their imaginary moves all seems to lead toward another 20-25 wins season.
In same time they ignore that Magic don't have max contract cap space slot to offer this year, that teams' best players won't be easly replaced (or replaced at all), that 2020 draft class is projected to be one of weakest in decade and that 2020 FA market is painfully bad.

I give credit to Vuc for his improvements over the years. He's become less hateable. But we can't give him a 4-5 year deal. I could tolerate a 3 year deal, but I don't think it's a "we need to do it or else" kinda situation.

You continue to show off your flaws by pointing out that since the 2020 FA class is perceived as weak (by you) that there's no other good way to spend Vuc's money.. that's so ridiculous in so many ways. Vuc's money will lock us up for more than 1 offseason buddy. Plus cap space can also be used in trades. Or we can the cap space on other FAs this summer.

Stop trying to rehash your memory of what I said in the past about players I supported because you are terribly inaccurate. And people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

Dude, you literally had parade when Magic signed BIyombo.
Stop it.

. Vuc's money will lock us up for more than 1 offseason buddy.

Yet, his salary won't be as high as combined salary of Mozgov and Fultz, who are definition of dead money on Magic roster.
Yet, also you ignore that salary cap will expend next year.

But as usual you are not interested in facts , rather wiggling through half truths and agendas.

How is Maker doing ? Allstar game in near future?

How's your boy Hezonja? Aligning me with Maker is an odd infatuation you have for wanting to put me in a bad light. Grow up. He was one of several players I liked but I didn't run house to house saying he should be our one and only pick. We didn't even have a pick of our own in that draft, that's how sad your case is. Your memory is terrible. I was hot for Buddy Heild that year.

Who cares if his salary won't be as high as the combined salary of Mozgov and Fultz? That has nothing to do with nothing. So since we have dead money, we should add more? How dumb is that? GTFO with your twisted idea of what facts are.

[Skin]

Matic said it... I didn't say you hate Bamba. But based on your vibe you definitely don't give any reason to show that you support him. You're a Debbie doubter in his talent and ability to meet expectations of a top 6 pick. Just like I am a doubter that Vuc needs to be here in order for its to be on the right path.

What you need to get over is this extremist idea that anyone who wants to the team to develop Bamba means we want him to be our starter when the season begins. If you truly believe in Bamba then you have to project him as a starter in the next 2-3 years. ...and that would mean benching Vuc if he signs a 4-5 year deal. ... and I don't want to deal with another hard-to-trade contract at that point.

If you remove Vucevic, you put the competitive context at risk. You are jeopardizing the best development context, not just for Bamba, but for Isaac, Fultz, Gordon etc.

Until there is a legitimate alternative to that, moving forward with him is the best option as long as it doesn't impact longterm flexibility. The low $20's price range that most estimate he'll get, is absolutely fine - I've shown you the projection. That's investing in ALL player development and asset management, not just Bamba.

Whoa, is this another backtrack? Nice. You don't want to bring him back no matter what? Now there's a limit to what you'll accept on his contract terms??? This is all new. This is great. Not having a long term negative impact is the hope for what I've been saying all along. Give Vuc 2 years, $80M for all I care. Bamba will be swole by then.

[Knightro]

Not saying it’s definitely happening, but there’s a legit possibility that the Magic trade Mozgov and the 16th pick for JR Smith’s contract to waive.

That would open up approximately 15.44M in cap space immediately.

Mozgov makes 16.78M. The 16th pick is another 2.59M.

JR is only guaranteed for 3.87M if waived before 6/29 which he would be. His contract is the last of its kind as the CBA closed that loophole on partially guaranteed contracts.

As much as I wouldn’t love sacrificing the 16th pick for cap space, if it eventually led to signing Russell, I’d have to go for it.