Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 I: Big decisions on the horizon

[j-ragg]

I don't understand the Atlanta love. I very much prefer our roster. We were the better team last year and will again be the better team this year. They have no star players either, seems like a gangle of average players to me... so what's all the hype about?

Well we're talking about the future not this year. But I bet if you took a poll of non-Orlando and Atlanta fans it'd be overwhelmingly in Atlanta's favor. Young teams usually always are the darling teams in fan's eyes, but even still I don't think people are really that enamored with Orlando's future until they get a guard of the future to help their bigs.

[basketballRob]

Don't get me wrong, he's a very good player. He's no way 6'10. I sit down low at the games and "bigs" like him and Powell(DAL) are very surprisingly physically underwhelming in person. Just like AG (who I would say is bigger than Collins), he's a SF in previous times...He has fragile-looking skinny legs. Heck of a bounce but then you see them next to other "similar-sized" players and they really look small. If you're under 6'2" you're a "PG"(even if you're not), if you can't shoot you can't be called a "SF" even if that's your body. Bamba and Isaac are slim but no doubt about their size and reach. It's always interesting (to me) to see guys live and be surprised, like I guarantee that Mario is taller and broader than AG regardless of listings. I just think slighter guys playing "big" can be neutralized. Just like there's only a small handful (maybe just Gasol) who can defend Vuc one-on-one (different position but you know what I mean). Bigger is still better if the mobility is comparable.

You get too worked out by measurments.

John Collins is superior basketball talent than any other Magic player than Vučević in this moment. 19,5 ppg, 9 rpg, 2,0 apg, 62,7% TS are stats that Magic youth members at age of 21 can't even reach in NBA 2 K , let alone real life.

Does he has some limitations? Well he is not Lebron , so what ?

He still gets fouls ( 4,4 FTA a game), still improves his shooting ( 34,6% for 3 ) and in general there is not much negative to say about him.

Gordon is PF, it just happends to be that Magic are always runned by clowns so he ends up playing wrong position over and over again ( i mean, Evan played SF for 5 years so there's that...)

did you know that in 2009 camp Derozan was one of the slowest players measured at combine? Same draft combine success made teams reach for Jonny Flynn . There are intersting things to look at when it comes to players athletic prophile, but people are now just taking it to whole another level. TO me, personally, it's funny because i'm 6'3 and i have 6'9 wingspan, and it's only hurting my bench press and nothing else

Agree...I don't disagree with either of your assessments. Collins is really good, so are Trae and Huerter, and I'd love to have their draft pick. They are definitely on the rise - I was only disagreeing with the point that Atlanta just blew by everyone in the East in the last couple years. I'd say the Magic today +/- Fultz and Vuc are at least as promising long-term and significantly better today.

All you'd have to do is dress them in ORL uniforms and everybody here would chew them up instead of anoint them

Collins is not as good as Isaac when matched up head to head.

[jayrehme]

I don't understand the Atlanta love. I very much prefer our roster. We were the better team last year and will again be the better team this year. They have no star players either, seems like a gangle of average players to me... so what's all the hype about?

Well we're talking about the future not this year. But I bet if you took a poll of non-Orlando and Atlanta fans it'd be overwhelmingly in Atlanta's favor. Young teams usually always are the darling teams in fan's eyes, but even still I don't think people are really that enamored with Orlando's future until they get a guard of the future to help their bigs.

When's the last time a roster full of young players has ever amounted to anything eventually? None of their players look like any type of stars, which is usually the knock on us that we can't get one. Yet they get a team of young average players with low ceilings and are being so highly praised? I even like our young players better.

[PrimeThyme]

Call me a Isaac homer or whatever you want, but if I had to do the draft over I’d still take Isaac over Collins. Collins is definitely more of a developed talent and more skilled offensively, but I think Isaac has the ability to be more of an impact player in this league. I prefer his size and skill set over Collins.

Time will tell though, I can see why someone would prefer Collins. Next year will be a huge year for Isaac. I think he has the opportunity to really start to close that gap.

[ezzzp]

People are giving the Hawks an awful lot of credit. I will be surprised if a core of Young, Collins, and Hunter has an above .500 season in the next three years.

Next year? No. 3 years? Yes.

And it has more to do with the fact they are actively building an identity and roster they can cultivate in the future. That’s where they get credit.

That sounds like PR talk.

If you look at history, you'll see that the likelihood that core is still together in 3 years is pretty low. Most young groups like that don't start winning until high quality vets are brought in and that usually equals part of the core being flipped + contract cycle realities dictate the rest of the dismantling process.

That draft-centric fan base and the media heads that cater to that niche, have said the exact same thing about high lottery young core's like Minnesota, Washington, Clippers, Phoenix etc etc etc. Every year there is a new "hot young team" pronounced to be building an "an exciting brand of basketball." Terms like identity and culture get tossed around, often layered with system descriptions like "playing fast," "modern," yada yada yada...then reality hits. The media and that niche fan base moves on and the reality of that hype just gets buried.

Meanwhile teams like Denver, Spurs, Utah, Toronto, Boston, Milwaukee etc who actually have a solid track record of developing young players within an actual quality "identity" context just get ignored by that niche media and its fanbase because they don't usually draft in the top 5 and thus don't get the hype.

[Catledge]

People are giving the Hawks an awful lot of credit. I will be surprised if a core of Young, Collins, and Hunter has an above .500 season in the next three years.

Next year? No. 3 years? Yes.

And it has more to do with the fact they are actively building an identity and roster they can cultivate in the future. That’s where they get credit.

Meh, this is one of those vague sports terms that doesn't really carry a lot of meaning. For me, it's about the current and future quality of their players.

Trae looks likely to be a very good offensive player who will always be a defensive liability. Collins looks like an above average player who is already pretty close to his ceiling. I don't watch enough college hoops to have an educated opinion of Hunter, but I've watched enough NBA to know that the overwhelming majority of draft picks, even high picks, never become stars. I've also watched enough NBA to know that young teams without significant vet leadership usually look dysfunctional.

Those things mean a lot more to me than "building an identity," whatever that means.

[ezzzp]

Call me a Isaac homer or whatever you want, but if I had to do the draft over I’d still take Isaac over Collins. Collins is definitely more of a developed talent and more skilled offensively, but I think Isaac has the ability to be more of an impact player in this league. I prefer his size and skill set over Collins.

Time will tell though, I can see why someone would prefer Collins. Next year will be a huge year for Isaac. I think he has the opportunity to really start to close that gap.

You're not an Isaac homer.

Both JI and Collins are the same age.

Isaac has already proven to have a winning impact on the defensive end. He was a key piece to a top 8 defense and a 42 win playoff squad.

Collins is putting up stats fluffed by pace and within a 29 win context. For all the hype about their offense, Atlanta was the 23d ranked offense last year, Orlando the 22nd.

Who knows were they end up in 2-3 years, but right now Isaac is showing he can at least be elite on one end of the floor.

[VFX]

People are giving the Hawks an awful lot of credit. I will be surprised if a core of Young, Collins, and Hunter has an above .500 season in the next three years.

Next year? No. 3 years? Yes.

And it has more to do with the fact they are actively building an identity and roster they can cultivate in the future. That’s where they get credit.

That sounds like PR talk.

If you look at history, you'll see that the likelihood that core is still together in 3 years is pretty low. Most young groups like that don't start winning until high quality vets are brought in and that usually equals part of the core being flipped + contract cycle realities dictate the rest of the dismantling process.

Right, but they are at least able to distinguish who they want to retain and who to move on from. Having too much talent isn’t a bad thing and having the opportunity to make those decisions is part of the process. They have arguably found their core group moving forward after two back to back drafts and can now continue building by drawing interested free agents.

That draft-centric fan base and the media heads that cater to that niche, have said the exact same thing about high lottery young core's like Minnesota, Washington, Clippers, Phoenix etc etc etc. Every year there is a new "hot young team" pronounced to be building an "an exciting brand of basketball." Terms like identity and culture get tossed around, often layered with system descriptions like "playing fast," "modern," yada yada yada...then reality hits. The media and that niche fan base moves on and the reality of that hype just gets buried.

Schlenk was the assistant GM of the Warriors. Their agenda has been pretty obviously focused to emulate them based on their draft selections. The same thing the Warriors did with their main core. You must also think it’s a coincidence they drafted players with extremely similar skill sets at positions of value. That isn’t some niche idea and “hot take” considering that’s what most people believe is happening in ATL. Their GM is choosing these players by making moves in the draft to compliment his other selections in order to put them in a better chance to succeed per his blueprint. Thus “forming and identity” where players have roles carved out for them based on what they excel at. How you translate that to “hype” is funny... it could work or couldn’t, but at least it makes sense in a rebuild at a much quicker pace than Orlando.

Meanwhile teams like Denver, Spurs, Utah, Toronto, Boston, Milwaukee etc who actually have a solid track record of developing young players within an actual quality "identity" context just get ignored by that niche media and its fanbase because they don't usually draft in the top 5 and thus don't get the hype.

Spurs absolutely have a reputation and identity for who they draft even being outside of the top 5. Lol. Yeah, of course taking more “hyped” players at the top of the draft is going to create conversation. That’s why scouting services and analysts have jobs ranking these players to the best of their ability. That’s not “niche media”. Teams can absolutely draft well and are often applauded for making smart decisions like the franchises you listed... I don’t know where you are getting that they aren’t. Those comparisons aren’t mutually exclusive to a rebuilding team making smart draft decisions with their pick assets.

[tiderulz]

I don't understand the Atlanta love. I very much prefer our roster. We were the better team last year and will again be the better team this year. They have no star players either, seems like a gangle of average players to me... so what's all the hype about?

PG
Young > DJ - considering contract, upside, passing
Huerter < Fournier - right now, Fournier is better whether his detractors want to admit it or not
Hunter > Isaac - Hunter right near Isaac in defensive ability and is a better offensive player, as he should be with 3 years at college
AG = Collins - people may not want to admit it, but Collins is equal to AG imo. He is already the shooter that AG is
Vuc > Fernando - but Vuc also due a big contract.

Atlanta also has some good depth now with Cam Reddish to develop, Spellman, Crabbe.

and any bad Atlanta contracts expire this year. they also have a 1st incoming from Cleveland next year and a 2022 OKC 1st rounder. they have a nice looking future.

[tiderulz]

You get too worked out by measurments.

John Collins is superior basketball talent than any other Magic player than Vučević in this moment. 19,5 ppg, 9 rpg, 2,0 apg, 62,7% TS are stats that Magic youth members at age of 21 can't even reach in NBA 2 K , let alone real life.

Does he has some limitations? Well he is not Lebron , so what ?

He still gets fouls ( 4,4 FTA a game), still improves his shooting ( 34,6% for 3 ) and in general there is not much negative to say about him.

Gordon is PF, it just happends to be that Magic are always runned by clowns so he ends up playing wrong position over and over again ( i mean, Evan played SF for 5 years so there's that...)

did you know that in 2009 camp Derozan was one of the slowest players measured at combine? Same draft combine success made teams reach for Jonny Flynn . There are intersting things to look at when it comes to players athletic prophile, but people are now just taking it to whole another level. TO me, personally, it's funny because i'm 6'3 and i have 6'9 wingspan, and it's only hurting my bench press and nothing else

Agree...I don't disagree with either of your assessments. Collins is really good, so are Trae and Huerter, and I'd love to have their draft pick. They are definitely on the rise - I was only disagreeing with the point that Atlanta just blew by everyone in the East in the last couple years. I'd say the Magic today +/- Fultz and Vuc are at least as promising long-term and significantly better today.

All you'd have to do is dress them in ORL uniforms and everybody here would chew them up instead of anoint them

Collins is not as good as Isaac when matched up head to head.

how exactly do you come to this conclusion?

[basketballRob]

Agree...I don't disagree with either of your assessments. Collins is really good, so are Trae and Huerter, and I'd love to have their draft pick. They are definitely on the rise - I was only disagreeing with the point that Atlanta just blew by everyone in the East in the last couple years. I'd say the Magic today +/- Fultz and Vuc are at least as promising long-term and significantly better today.

All you'd have to do is dress them in ORL uniforms and everybody here would chew them up instead of anoint them

Collins is not as good as Isaac when matched up head to head.

how exactly do you come to this conclusion?

When Isaac guards him he can't do anything.


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[basketballRob]

Watch on YouTube

[Skin]

Collins is not as good as Isaac when matched up head to head.

how exactly do you come to this conclusion?

When Isaac guards him he can't do anything.


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I never saw that before. That was beautiful.

[tiderulz]

Collins is not as good as Isaac when matched up head to head.

how exactly do you come to this conclusion?

When Isaac guards him he can't do anything.


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I dont know all the different web sites. Who is determining when Isaac is guarding Collins? or is this just a random youtube video here and there?

[basketballRob]

how exactly do you come to this conclusion?

When Isaac guards him he can't do anything.


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I dont know all the different web sites. Who is determining when Isaac is guarding Collins? or is this just a random youtube video here and there?

I base it off of what I see. Collins is a marginal player when Isaac guards him.

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[tiderulz]

When Isaac guards him he can't do anything.


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I dont know all the different web sites. Who is determining when Isaac is guarding Collins? or is this just a random youtube video here and there?

I base it off of what I see. Collins is a marginal player when Isaac guards him.

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so its not that he cant do anything when Isaac guards him, its just that one time. gotcha.

[Ducklett]

I don't understand the Atlanta love. I very much prefer our roster. We were the better team last year and will again be the better team this year. They have no star players either, seems like a gangle of average players to me... so what's all the hype about?

PG
Young > DJ - considering contract, upside, passing
Huerter < Fournier - right now, Fournier is better whether his detractors want to admit it or not
Hunter > Isaac - Hunter right near Isaac in defensive ability and is a better offensive player, as he should be with 3 years at college
AG = Collins - people may not want to admit it, but Collins is equal to AG imo. He is already the shooter that AG is
Vuc > Fernando - but Vuc also due a big contract.

Atlanta also has some good depth now with Cam Reddish to develop, Spellman, Crabbe.

and any bad Atlanta contracts expire this year. they also have a 1st incoming from Cleveland next year and a 2022 OKC 1st rounder. they have a nice looking future.

Imagine thinking some random is better than Isaac, the same Isaac who was playing top tier defense against both Kawhi and Siakam in playoff games, the same Isaac who all of the non-Magic analysts were saying, with Gordon's defense, was the only way the Magic were even in these games because of Evan and Vuc's inability to play basketball all series. Some of you guys are actually going insane with these horrible "hot takes".

This is some Skip/Stephen A levels of bahahaha going on in here lately.

[basketballRob]

I dont know all the different web sites. Who is determining when Isaac is guarding Collins? or is this just a random youtube video here and there?

I base it off of what I see. Collins is a marginal player when Isaac guards him.

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so its not that he cant do anything when Isaac guards him, its just that one time. gotcha.

No. Prior to that game I noticed Collins couldn't score on Issac. That game he actually got garbage buckets when Isaac was out because they already had a convincing lead.

Isaac just shuts down Collins has been a theme though. Collins acts like he doesn't want the ball against him. As soon as JI goes out Collins starts demanding the ball.

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[Skin]

I don't understand the Atlanta love. I very much prefer our roster. We were the better team last year and will again be the better team this year. They have no star players either, seems like a gangle of average players to me... so what's all the hype about?

PG
Young > DJ - considering contract, upside, passing
Huerter < Fournier - right now, Fournier is better whether his detractors want to admit it or not
Hunter > Isaac - Hunter right near Isaac in defensive ability and is a better offensive player, as he should be with 3 years at college
AG = Collins - people may not want to admit it, but Collins is equal to AG imo. He is already the shooter that AG is
Vuc > Fernando - but Vuc also due a big contract.

Atlanta also has some good depth now with Cam Reddish to develop, Spellman, Crabbe.

and any bad Atlanta contracts expire this year. they also have a 1st incoming from Cleveland next year and a 2022 OKC 1st rounder. they have a nice looking future.

I love what ATL is doing, but I also love what we have been doing. It's gonna be a fun young rivalry for years to come.

The way I see it is that when they are in their prime:

Fultz = Young
? - Reddish
Gordon = Hunter
Isaac > Collins
Bamba > Fernando

Okeke > Huerter

No homer lol

[zaymon]

I don't understand the Atlanta love. I very much prefer our roster. We were the better team last year and will again be the better team this year. They have no star players either, seems like a gangle of average players to me... so what's all the hype about?

PG
Young > DJ - considering contract, upside, passing
Huerter < Fournier - right now, Fournier is better whether his detractors want to admit it or not
Hunter > Isaac - Hunter right near Isaac in defensive ability and is a better offensive player, as he should be with 3 years at college
AG = Collins - people may not want to admit it, but Collins is equal to AG imo. He is already the shooter that AG is
Vuc > Fernando - but Vuc also due a big contract.

Atlanta also has some good depth now with Cam Reddish to develop, Spellman, Crabbe.

and any bad Atlanta contracts expire this year. they also have a 1st incoming from Cleveland next year and a 2022 OKC 1st rounder. they have a nice looking future.

I love what ATL is doing, but I also love what we have been doing. It's gonna be a fun young rivalry for years to come.

The way I see it is that when they are in their prime:

Fultz = Young
? - Reddish
Gordon = Hunter
Isaac > Collins
Bamba > Fernando

Okeke > Huerter

No homer lol

If Fultz is healthy he is much better fit for us than Young who btw was schooled by DJ. Trae has no chance to be a two way player. Hunter has a long way to go, he will be lucky to reach Aaron level. Right now i would say ?>Reddish