Greatest Team To Never Win a Ring Tournament: '03 Mavs vs. '12 Thunder

pandrade83 · Post #1 » by **pandrade83** » Thu Jun 20, 2019 11:48 am

We're over halfway in Round 2!

This is a voting based tournament to determine who was the GOAT team to not win a title. The original thread for this is

here

Each matchup will utilize the rules, refs, & equipment of the older team in this tournament. This hopefully will eliminate a bit of the recency bias. Health is as it was at the close of the Regular Season; perhaps a team didn't win because of injury.

One last thing. Voting without any reason listed at all will not be counted. Each thread will be open until it slips to page 2 of the board.

'03 Mavs (HCA) 60-22, SRS +7.9, Offense +7.1, Defense -1.3, lost to Spurs in WCF in 6
LaFrentz
Nowitzki
A. Griffin
Finley
Nash

Bradley
Van Exel
Bell
W. Williams

'12 Thunder 47-19, SRS +6.4, Offense +5.2, Defense -1.4, lost to Heat in Finals in 5

Perkins
Ibaka
Durant
Sefalosha
Westbrook

Harden
Collison
Cook

pandrade83 · Post #2 » by **pandrade83** » Sun Jun 23, 2019 1:57 am

Kinda bummed out that this one hasn't gotten any votes one way or the other. I think this is a fun one.

I'll take the Mavs in 7 off the strength of HCA & coaching. The Thunder have more talent but they were horribly coached and it got exposed in the Finals. Dallas had the strength of a team that could've easily won the title had Dirk not gotten injured in the '03 WCF and I think that they have the best player in the series as I marginally prefer this version of Dirk against this version of KD.

Vayuputra · Post #3 » by **Vayuputra** » Sun Jun 23, 2019 8:02 am

That OKC team was like a pack of hounds on Defense with their extreme length and athleticism. Hmm I think that Mavs team lacked Defensive stalwarts to slow down even a raw Durant, Westbrook or Harden while a young, extremely athletic Ibaka (and Durant) would have some semblance of defense on Dirk (He hadn't fully developed his offensive arsenal remember and this version of Dirk was still being effectively guarded and slowed down by smaller, lengthier and athletic players in the playoffs before he developed counters). Sure Dallas could have won that year had they faced the Nets in the Finals but there was no way they were beating Lakers and Spurs on the way to the Finals that year. You may say Dirk only played 3 games, but Duncan was at his absolute peak and feasting on them and even had Dirk played the entire series I don't think it would have made much of a difference, in fact I remember them playing better from Game 4 after Dirk went down with Finley leading the charge (Besides Spurs lead 2-1 in the 3 games he played, and Duncan averaged a crazy 35-18-6-3 @57% compared to Dirk's 25-11-2-1 @43%). I'd take OKC in 6.

Vayuputra · Post #4 » by **Vayuputra** » Sun Jun 23, 2019 8:19 am

And if you bring up coaching, in 2012 Spurs were an absolute offensive juggernaut who went 10-0 in the playoffs until Game 3 of the WCF against OKC, when Scott forced Pop to remove Tiage Splitter, went small ball with Ibaka at 5 and Durant at 4 and surprisingly won 4 straight to storm into the Finals. That OKC small-ball lineup was something else with super athletic defenders at every position (even Harden played very good defense back then) and really hungry after building up over their past 3 playoff runs. It is a pity Harden choked in the Finals but had OKC retained that team and barring injuries I have no doubt they would have had a 3 peat from 2013-15.

gh123 · Post #5 » by **gh123** » Sun Jun 23, 2019 1:03 pm

Man, I love Nellie but his 0 defense style cost us quite a bit back in the days.

pandrade83 · Post #6 » by **pandrade83** » Sun Jun 23, 2019 1:51 pm

Vayuputra wrote:And if you bring up coaching, in 2012 Spurs were an absolute offensive juggernaut who went 10-0 in the playoffs until Game 3 of the WCF against OKC, when Scott forced Pop to remove Tiage Splitter, went small ball with Ibaka at 5 and Durant at 4 and surprisingly won 4 straight to storm into the Finals. That OKC small-ball lineup was something else with super athletic defenders at every position (even Harden played very good defense back then) and really hungry after building up over their past 3 playoff runs. It is a pity Harden choked in the Finals but had OKC retained that team and barring injuries I have no doubt they would have had a 3 peat from 2013-15.

It's a damn shame that mentality wasn't carried over to the Finals. Perkins was pretty worthless outside of 1 game.

pandrade83 · Post #7 » by **pandrade83** » Sun Jun 23, 2019 1:57 pm

Vayuputra wrote:That OKC team was like a pack of hounds on Defense with their extreme length and athleticism. Hmm I think that Mavs team lacked Defensive stalwarts to slow down even a raw Durant, Westbrook or Harden while a young, extremely athletic Ibaka (and Durant) would have some semblance of defense on Dirk (He hadn't fully developed his offensive arsenal remember and this version of Dirk was still being effectively guarded and slowed down by smaller, lengthier and athletic players in the playoffs before he developed counters). Sure Dallas could have won that year had they faced the Nets in the Finals but there was no way they were beating Lakers and Spurs on the way to the Finals that year. You may say Dirk only played 3 games, but Duncan was at his absolute peak and feasting on them and even had Dirk played the entire series I don't think it would have made much of a difference, in fact I remember them playing better from Game 4 after Dirk went down with Finley leading the charge (Besides Spurs lead 2-1 in the 3 games he played, and Duncan averaged a crazy 35-18-6-3 @57% compared to Dirk's 25-11-2-1 @43%). I'd take OKC in 6.

Against another team with robust athletes, their lack of defensive discipline showed - see Miami hanging a 115 ORTG on them.

Richfield · Post #8 » by **Richfield** » Sun Jun 23, 2019 2:05 pm

Where is the bracket for this tournament?

Did the 88-89 Cavs make the tournament?

3 Allstars, 2nd best record in the league, great all around team, eliminated by "the shot".

pandrade83 · Post #9 » by **pandrade83** » Sun Jun 23, 2019 2:13 pm

Richfield wrote:Where is the bracket for this tournament?

Did the 88-89 Cavs make the tournament?

3 Allstars, 2nd best record in the league, great all around team, eliminated by "the shot".

The bracket for this is in the link that it is embedded within the 1st post of everyone of these threads.

The '89 Cavs didn't make it because they didn't meet one of the criteria (must win a game past the 1st round), however, their successors, the '92 Cavs DID make it and were defeated by the '91 Blazers.

Richfield · Post #10 » by **Richfield** » Sun Jun 23, 2019 2:16 pm

Thanks, I gotta read the OP better, my bad

Edit:

But for this one, I'd take the Thunder. Looking at some of the individual defensive match ups is how I made my decision. Dallas would have a hard time doing what they do against that long and tenacious D.

Then on the other end, hard to imagine Nash staying in front of Westbrook at all. Or those Mavs being able to keep up with those Thunder and transition.

Looks like an easy call, too easy, like there's something I'm overlooking.

pandrade83 · Post #11 » by **pandrade83** » Sun Jun 23, 2019 3:14 pm

Richfield wrote:Thanks, I gotta read the OP better, my bad

Edit:

But for this one, I'd take the Thunder. Looking at some of the individual defensive match ups is how I made my decision. Dallas would have a hard time doing what they do against that long and tenacious D.

Then on the other end, hard to imagine Nash staying in front of Westbrook at all. Or those Mavs being able to keep up with those Thunder and transition.

Looks like an easy call, too easy, like there's something I'm overlooking.

A couple things:

1) Thunder's defense (in relative terms) was just 0.1 pts per 100 better than Dallas. . . it seems odd to me that people are taking the Thunder for that reason.

2) Dallas (imo) has the best player in the series, the better coach & HCA. That usually gets the win. I also think Dallas was one injury away from winning the title; I do NOT feel that way about the '12 Thunder.

Richfield · Post #12 » by **Richfield** » Sun Jun 23, 2019 3:21 pm

Gotta take your head out of the stats on that one and look at the matchups. Teams are nearly a decade apart, and those stats were created against other teams, not against each other.

clearlynotjesse · Post #13 » by **clearlynotjesse** » Sun Jun 23, 2019 4:18 pm

I think only the GOAT defenses are going to be able to stop this Mavs team, and the Thunder are not that. They had a great series against the Spurs, but the Spurs didn't have a singular offensive juggernaut like Dirk to stop. Few players can create mismatches like Dirk, and the Mavs have 3-4 (Van Exel was great this season) guys who can attack those mismatches in space.

On the other end, Perkins and Thabo being total nonfactors on offense really hurts. The Thunder starting lineup only really has Durant as a shooter to worry about. Durant, at this point in his career and with this team/coach, isn't warping defenses like Dirk. Harden helps out a lot, but I don't think it's enough.

With neither team having a defense worth talking about and great offenses, I think this is a shootout. The Mavs have HCA, the best player, and I don't think the Thunder have enough shooting to tip the variance in their favor. Mavs in 6 fun games.