Welcome Matisse Thybulle!

[Arsenal]

Thybulle is very likely to be a great defender. His college performance on the D end was legendary, even above guys who became stud defenders in the NBA like Iguodala, Smart, and Green.

He is likely to be as good or better on D than Danny Green. He just needs to hit enough open 3's on the other end to not compromise spacing and he will be a very valuable player.

Danny Green is a +1.0 offense +2.0 defense = +3.0 total on average over the last 6 seasons. I think Thybulle has upside to be +0.0 offense and +3.0 defense for a similar overall impact after a year or two in the gym to get stronger. Not as good on offense but even better on defense.

[Ben]

Thybulle is very likely to be a great defender. His college performance on the D end was legendary, even above guys who became stud defenders in the NBA like Iguodala, Smart, and Green.

He is likely to be as good or better on D than Danny Green. He just needs to hit enough open 3's on the other end to not compromise spacing and he will be a very valuable player.

Danny Green is a +1.0 offense +2.0 defense = +3.0 total on average over the last 6 seasons. I think Thybulle has upside to be +0.0 offense and +3.0 defense for a similar overall impact after a year or two in the gym to get stronger. Not as good on offense but even better on defense.

Just out of curiosity, what's the source for that +/- data over 6 seasons?

[Arsenal]

Thybulle is very likely to be a great defender. His college performance on the D end was legendary, even above guys who became stud defenders in the NBA like Iguodala, Smart, and Green.

He is likely to be as good or better on D than Danny Green. He just needs to hit enough open 3's on the other end to not compromise spacing and he will be a very valuable player.

Danny Green is a +1.0 offense +2.0 defense = +3.0 total on average over the last 6 seasons. I think Thybulle has upside to be +0.0 offense and +3.0 defense for a similar overall impact after a year or two in the gym to get stronger. Not as good on offense but even better on defense.

Just out of curiosity, what's the source for that +/- data over 6 seasons?

I was using ESPN RPM, but I'm pretty sure Danny Green is a stud via RAPM also. Just did the math quick and dirty in my head without actually calculating it out. But I'm sure it's pretty close.

[GimmeDat]

I think Thybulle will be great for you guys. I think Edwards would've been as well, but hey, gotta give something to get something, and the Sixers clearly had their eye in on Matisse.

Now Thybulle just needs to be pressured to try and play for the Australian National team with Bolden and Simmons - he grew up for a long time in Aus. and it was thought he had dual citizenship (later debunked).

[freshie2]

Watch on YouTube

This guy succinctly illustrates my concerns with Thybulle. Also shows off his potential. I'm hoping he can figure out how to play defense outside of a zone.

Position-less basketball is more similar than dissimilar to a zone defense. Play the pick and roll and switch...he looked pretty good in the highlights I have seen m so the defensive transition isn’t much of a concern. How he develops from 3 is more critical to his overall impact.

[Kobblehead]

I can understand the frustration. I was HELLA pissed when the Bulls drafted Tony Snell at #20 six years ago, given that they badly needed a backup big man and Gorgui Deng and Mason Plumlee were drafted right after Snell, and Rudy Gobert (previously projected as a possible lotto pick) was still free-falling. Snell, like Thybulle, was drafted to be a 3&D player but had underwhelming collegiate offensive stats that suggested a lack of aggressiveness. Indeed, in terms of efficiency, Snell really sucked for his 3 years with the Bulls. He was never a very good 3P shooter for Chicago, his PER was always poor, and he had no offensive aggressiveness. Yet once he was dumped to the Bucks he improved enough at 3P range -- and started taking way more 3 point attempts relative to 2-pointers-- such that he earned a pretty huge contract given his mediocrity. So I guess in some ways he was at least a passable drafting success. Just not for the team that drafted him. And the Sixers need Thybulle to be productive NOW.

Thybulle's lack of offensiveness is worrisome, b/c that's not usually something that can be coached or learned. And I didn't like that they traded up for him, not least because I hate getting played repeatedly by Danny Ainge over guys he didn't really want to draft in the first place. Nonetheless, Thybulle seems like a great kid and I'm eager to see what he can do here. I hope that he will hit the weight room hard so that it won't look too ridiculous when someone inevitably nicknames him "the Bull."

Wouldn't you say the Bucks regretted the Snell contract almost immediately? They've nearly cut his minutes in half from when they first got him.

Tony Snell, James Ennis. These 6 ppg players are just not productive enough to be top 8 rotation guys. I don't see how Thybulle can eclipse either of those guy's career, either. He was a worse college player than both of them.

[PhilasFinest]

Tony Snell is a TERRIBLE comparison to Thybulle.Snell never even averaged a steal or block per game in college. He was a long, lanky wing with no motor who could make open 3's and his physical attributes gave a false projection of "D" to go with the "3".

Thybulle broke the records of 2 of the NBA's best defenders (Jason Kidd,Gary Payton) with his defensive output during his career. Zone or not, its still an extremely impressive feat to achieve for a perimeter player to rack up those amounts of steals & blocks.

His ceiling is essentially tied to his ability to develop his shot. If he can improve and shoot 36%+ from 3PT, he will likely end up carving out a decent career as a 3/D wing.

If he doesn't develop his outside shot, he's probably a journeymen wing ala fellow Huskie Justin Holiday.

[LloydFree]

Ehhh. I'm going to have an open mind to the pick. Opposite my initial reaction. Don't believe in taking college role players in the 1st round. Much less trading up to get one.

But I can understand their rationale. They saw that their Defense absolutely tanked, the minute they traded away Robert Covington. They clearly see this guy as Robert Covington and feel if Thybulle can hit an open 3, they'd be no worse off as a team, than they were before they made the trade. I have my doubts because I don't think he is that kind of shooter, and he isn't as big as Covington. But if he can hit the NBA 3, it will likely be a good pick.

[Negrodamus]

I guess another question I have is does he ever really shut anyone down? Last year, I'm going through the notable teams he played again and it seems like a few drafted stars were able to put up pretty decent games. He got absolutely exposed against UNC. NAW had a massive game against UW. Louis King and KZ Okpala had two very solid performances (and two duds). Tres Tinkle had two very solid offensive outings.

Now I'm not saying it's his fault, but when you play zone, does one excuse the massive performances from the opposing stars while applauding his games where they shut down a star? I'm not sure. I posted a highlight tape of Kerwin Roach in the other thread where you can see the direct result of his defense against NBA stars due to man to man matchups. Those are results I can legitimately keep under consideration for how he'll be as a defender at the next level.

Just something to think about.

[Ben]

Tony Snell is a TERRIBLE comparison to Thybulle.Snell never even averaged a steal or block per game in college. He was a long, lanky wing with no motor who could make open 3's and his physical attributes gave a false projection of "D" to go with the "3".

Thybulle broke the records of 2 of the NBA's best defenders (Jason Kidd,Gary Payton) with his defensive output during his career. Zone or not, its still an extremely impressive feat to achieve for a perimeter player to rack up those amounts of steals & blocks.

His ceiling is essentially tied to his ability to develop his shot. If he can improve and shoot 36%+ from 3PT, he will likely end up carving out a decent career as a 3/D wing.

If he doesn't develop his outside shot, he's probably a journeymen wing ala fellow Huskie Justin Holiday.

I understand your perspective; really, I feel you. I know what it's like to support a candidate's potential and to read skeptical comments. I supported the Bulls' front office when they drafted Tyrus Thomas (although I wanted LaMarcus Aldridge), and a number of other Bulls draftees. But RE: Snell and Thybulle, you are mistaken. The comparisons to any given player are always tied to a number of factors. Snell was supposed to be a 3&D player. So is Thybulle. That's the comparison. (They were also picked at #20 by teams that I follow. That was the other comparison. And they both seem to have too little assertiveness on the offensive end. That was a third.) You seem to be writing as if the only comparison possible is based upon per-game statistical similarity in college (where guys play in widely divergent systems against widely variant levels of competition, and often with relatively small sample sizes). You probably don't really believe that, but that's the basis on which you're objecting to my benign comment. Kinda scratching my head at that.

If Snell had been evaluated solely based on per-game steals & blocks stats, he never would have been drafted. As it stands, he shouldn't have gone at #20 but he was but he was judged by a lot of NBA scouts as a league-ready 3&D prospect and in fact he has stuck on NBA rosters for 6 years and counting (and has earned a not-deserved but still-to-be-paid $46M, 4-year contract). His defense is one of the reasons he's stuck around. But you wouldn't know about his defensive prowess simply by looking at his per-game college steals & blocks stats. Bruce Bowen wouldn't have been in Thybulle's league, either (1.3/ 0.7 steals & blocks per game). If Thybulle becomes Bowen, all of us can toast Elton's brilliance and your own dedication to per-game college stats.

it's always a stretch to find any perfect comparisons for any draft candidate. But, as I wrote above, most of us would put Thybulle in the 3&D category. Tony Snell, Anthony Roberson, Danny Green, James Ennis: like it or not, these guys will always come to mind. I will be the first to point out that Roberson's lack of NBA 3P shooting success should not be imputed to Thybulle, because Roberson's drop in 3P % was quite unusual. If Thybulle were to become a better-shooting version of Roberson, that would be pretty much fine. Danny Green would also be just fine. James Ennis would be less fine, and while Thybulle had about 50% more blocks and steals than Ennis (in totally different systems), Ennis also scored more than Thybulle did (just as Snell had a higher collegiate 3P% than Thybulle did).

I agree completely that Thybulle's NBA potential is tied closely to his 3P shot. If he can improve, and can become a player who shoots better than 35% regularly from 3, then he has a real potential to help here. On the other hand, I wouldn't ground his NBA potential based on his college defensive stats, because based on those he should be twice as good as Snell or maybe 50% better than Bowen, and that's unlikely to happen.

The really ironic thing is that while you start your post so vehemently rejecting Tony Snell as a comparison, you close by putting Thybulle's upside as a decent 3&D wing. That's what Tony Snell already IS, with better 3P shooting and worse defense than some in that category. I don't think that anyone has hit what you describe as Thybulle's ceiling with collegiate offensive stats like Thybulle's. But you and I and a lot of other fans hope that he can do it. Here's hoping.

[SixthStreet]

Thybulle is almost assuredly going to be a offensive zero, at best. But just what is his defensive upside? Andre Robertson, Tony Allen, Andre Iguodala level? Is he an ace defender? Someone who is really an All-NBA level defender but would never actually get recognized because offense is always factored into those selections?

[Aussiepiston1]

Thybulle is obviously not a sure thing just like most draft picks but He's projected to be in the Mold of Tony Allen or Andre Roberson (with a better shot) and Danny Green or Roco so if He comes anywhere close to that then His selection was a success.

[Kolkmania]

I guess another question I have is does he ever really shut anyone down? Last year, I'm going through the notable teams he played again and it seems like a few drafted stars were able to put up pretty decent games. He got absolutely exposed against UNC. NAW had a massive game against UW. Louis King and KZ Okpala had two very solid performances (and two duds). Tres Tinkle had two very solid offensive outings.

Now I'm not saying it's his fault, but when you play zone, does one excuse the massive performances from the opposing stars while applauding his games where they shut down a star? I'm not sure. I posted a highlight tape of Kerwin Roach in the other thread where you can see the direct result of his defense against NBA stars due to man to man matchups. Those are results I can legitimately keep under consideration for how he'll be as a defender at the next level.

Just something to think about.

I don't mind it if he develops into to a meh one-on-one defender but a master of deflections, steals and blocks. You need both kind of defenders and Simmons (and Butler if he stays) is/are capable of defending a star wing one-on-one.

The lack of fastbreak points last year really hurt us. I don't care that Thybulle played zone, you can see the anticipation skills and I have no doubt that that particular skill will translate to the NBA.

Offensively I have no idea what will happen. He's quite trigger happy from three (great thing), I've seen flashes of underrated ball handling skills (also good), but the overall usage rate is so low for a senior, that I fear none of it will translate.

[51X3RF4N]

I feel like people are saying how bad he will be offensively but we really don't need him to do anything more than what RoCo does, and even then we may just need a catch and shoot 3&D guy, right?

I think Zhaire has shown more offensive flashes than Matysse in his limited time in the NBA, but that doesn't mean Matysse won't be just as impactful simply by shooting 38-40% from 3pt.

We literally have been saying we need a RoCo replacement since the trade, and we need a 3&D guy next to Ben, and we need someone who plays well without the ball in his hands, and defers on offense to our stars.

That is Exactly what we just drafted and I am very excited to see how he fits in and makes an immediate impact.

Zhaire is still 2 years younger than Matysse and I think can develop into an offensive threat in time, and Matysse will still be plugging along in his role.

I think he's a Landry Shamet type in the sense that he can come in and learn from JJ about playing off the ball and running through those sets to get open 3pt looks, preparing for games etc. Except even though he may not shoot the lights out like Landry, his defense will be a huge plus.

[youngcrev]

I feel like people are saying how bad he will be offensively but we really don't need him to do anything more than what RoCo does, and even then we may just need a catch and shoot 3&D guy, right?

I think Zhaire has shown more offensive flashes than Matysse in his limited time in the NBA, but that doesn't mean Matysse won't be just as impactful simply by shooting 38-40% from 3pt.

We literally have been saying we need a RoCo replacement since the trade, and we need a 3&D guy next to Ben, and we need someone who plays well without the ball in his hands, and defers on offense to our stars.

That is Exactly what we just drafted and I am very excited to see how he fits in and makes an immediate impact.

Zhaire is still 2 years younger than Matysse and I think can develop into an offensive threat in time, and Matysse will still be plugging along in his role.

I think he's a Landry Shamet type in the sense that he can come in and learn from JJ about playing off the ball and running through those sets to get open 3pt looks, preparing for games etc. Except even though he may not shoot the lights out like Landry, his defense will be a huge plus.

I don't imagine they'll be running sets for him the way they did for JJ and Shamet. He seems more like a plop at the 3 point line, catch and shoot off a double kind of guy rather than someone you actively work to get clean looks for

[Sixerscan]

I guess another question I have is does he ever really shut anyone down? Last year, I'm going through the notable teams he played again and it seems like a few drafted stars were able to put up pretty decent games. He got absolutely exposed against UNC. NAW had a massive game against UW. Louis King and KZ Okpala had two very solid performances (and two duds). Tres Tinkle had two very solid offensive outings.

Now I'm not saying it's his fault, but when you play zone, does one excuse the massive performances from the opposing stars while applauding his games where they shut down a star? I'm not sure. I posted a highlight tape of Kerwin Roach in the other thread where you can see the direct result of his defense against NBA stars due to man to man matchups. Those are results I can legitimately keep under consideration for how he'll be as a defender at the next level.

Just something to think about.

I don’t think an individual opposing players’ performance against a zone is particularly informative against one guy in that zone one way or the other. In fact that’s part of the reason why NBA teams don’t play zone, there is so much outlier talent and coaching is much better that you end up allowing too many favorable matchups to opposing teams best players.

My impression is that we’re hoping that Thybulle becomes more of a smaller quicker Covington, who was always really better at team defense and getting deflections than guarding one on one. Whereas Zhaire can hopefully be on a lockdown guy that you put on an island.

[Ben]

I feel like people are saying how bad he will be offensively but we really don't need him to do anything more than what RoCo does, and even then we may just need a catch and shoot 3&D guy, right?

I think Zhaire has shown more offensive flashes than Matysse in his limited time in the NBA, but that doesn't mean Matysse won't be just as impactful simply by shooting 38-40% from 3pt.

We literally have been saying we need a RoCo replacement since the trade, and we need a 3&D guy next to Ben, and we need someone who plays well without the ball in his hands, and defers on offense to our stars.

That is Exactly what we just drafted and I am very excited to see how he fits in and makes an immediate impact.

Zhaire is still 2 years younger than Matysse and I think can develop into an offensive threat in time, and Matysse will still be plugging along in his role.

I think he's a Landry Shamet type in the sense that he can come in and learn from JJ about playing off the ball and running through those sets to get open 3pt looks, preparing for games etc. Except even though he may not shoot the lights out like Landry, his defense will be a huge plus.

Whoa. If Thybulle could hit 38-40% from 3P range, I'd be ecstatic. But that's really hard to do. He shot 35.8% from 3 over four college seasons. NBA range is three feet further and the defenses are better. For point of reference, Covington shot 42.2% from 3 over four college seasons, and he's a career 36% 3-point shooter in the NBA. (Covington was also a little better collegiate FT shooter than Thybulle, 80.2% to 78.2%.) So if Thybulle somehow becomes a 38-40% shooter relatively soon (since the idea is to get him contributing during the Sixers' championship window), that would be amazing. But not at all expected.

[PhillyFan11]

I guess another question I have is does he ever really shut anyone down? Last year, I'm going through the notable teams he played again and it seems like a few drafted stars were able to put up pretty decent games. He got absolutely exposed against UNC. NAW had a massive game against UW. Louis King and KZ Okpala had two very solid performances (and two duds). Tres Tinkle had two very solid offensive outings.

Now I'm not saying it's his fault, but when you play zone, does one excuse the massive performances from the opposing stars while applauding his games where they shut down a star? I'm not sure. I posted a highlight tape of Kerwin Roach in the other thread where you can see the direct result of his defense against NBA stars due to man to man matchups. Those are results I can legitimately keep under consideration for how he'll be as a defender at the next level.

Just something to think about.

So based off of your YouTube scouting you’ve deemed that a guy the entire nba deemed undraftable (Roach) is a more impactful defender than the reigning defensive player of the year and consensus top 25 pick?

And because a player played zone for 2 of 4 years in college you think he isn’t a good man defender? Despite the fact that he has all the requisite skills, athleticism and length to do so?

Just trying to make sure I’m reading this correctly

[AirP.]

I agree completely that Thybulle's NBA potential is tied closely to his 3P shot. If he can improve, and can become a player who shoots better than 35% regularly from 3, then he has a real potential to help here. On the other hand, I wouldn't ground his NBA potential based on his college defensive stats, because based on those he should be twice as good as Snell or maybe 50% better than Bowen, and that's unlikely to happen.

The really ironic thing is that while you start your post so vehemently rejecting Tony Snell as a comparison, you close by putting Thybulle's upside as a decent 3&D wing. That's what Tony Snell already IS, with better 3P shooting and worse defense than some in that category. I don't think that anyone has hit what you describe as Thybulle's ceiling with collegiate offensive stats like Thybulle's. But you and I and a lot of other fans hope that he can do it. Here's hoping.

I don't see the Snell/Thybulle as a good comparison either, I see Thybulle as more coordinated, stronger and just overall just a more athletic player then Snell, if you want to use a Bull's pick (from somewhat recent history) I think Thabo Sefolosha (which came from Philly) is way more alike Thybulle then Snell is/was. Thybulle, much like Thabo, just had a knack at getting their hands on the ball with great coordination and being able to read what the offensive player was going to do.

[sixerswillrule]

Thybulle is almost assuredly going to be a offensive zero, at best. But just what is his defensive upside? Andre Robertson, Tony Allen, Andre Iguodala level? Is he an ace defender? Someone who is really an All-NBA level defender but would never actually get recognized because offense is always factored into those selections?

Tony Allen and Ben Wallace wouldn't have gotten all those selections if their offense factored into it. Roberson wouldn't have been a contender for DPOY before he got injured.