Lowe - Timberwolves Still Want D-Russell

[KGdaBom]

One of the writers over on CH has broken it down where basically the Wolves could get DLo in a 3 team deal using just Teague, Okogie (and maybe KDB) along with a first.

Basically Wolves get DLo
Nets get the 1st
Knicks take on Teagues expiring with Okogie (and maybe KDB).

With the % difference you’re allowed in trades that would be enough for a near max (or Max if you include KDB). Nets take back no salary while getting an asset. Knicks get an asset for paying for Teagues last year.

IMO - I’d rather keep Okogie (and draft a PG next year) while not signing DLo to a (near?) max deal but that is the easiest path and would allow us to retain our rights on Tyus and Taj.

FWIW.

https://www.canishoopus.com/2019/6/23/18714491/free-agency-primer-how-the-wolves-can-land-dangelo-russell

That actually makes sense, but it leaves the Wolves short another PF.

[jscott]

One of the writers over on CH has broken it down where basically the Wolves could get DLo in a 3 team deal using just Teague, Okogie (and maybe KDB) along with a first.

Basically Wolves get DLo
Nets get the 1st
Knicks take on Teagues expiring with Okogie (and maybe KDB).

With the % difference you’re allowed in trades that would be enough for a near max (or Max if you include KDB). Nets take back no salary while getting an asset. Knicks get an asset for paying for Teagues last year.

IMO - I’d rather keep Okogie (and draft a PG next year) while not signing DLo to a (near?) max deal but that is the easiest path and would allow us to retain our rights on Tyus and Taj.

FWIW.

https://www.canishoopus.com/2019/6/23/18714491/free-agency-primer-how-the-wolves-can-land-dangelo-russell

This seems rather cheap. My question is do the Nets even get a first in this deal? My thoughts are they are either going to withdraw the qualifying offer to Russell bc they are signing two max guys or they are going to simply keep Russell. If they rescind the QO, do they have leverage to get a first vs a couple seconds. I believe in a sign and trade like this they would get a massive trade exception as well, right?

Yeah maybe they don’t need a first back if they get a 27.5 TPE.

[jscott]

One of the writers over on CH has broken it down where basically the Wolves could get DLo in a 3 team deal using just Teague, Okogie (and maybe KDB) along with a first.

Basically Wolves get DLo
Nets get the 1st
Knicks take on Teagues expiring with Okogie (and maybe KDB).

With the % difference you’re allowed in trades that would be enough for a near max (or Max if you include KDB). Nets take back no salary while getting an asset. Knicks get an asset for paying for Teagues last year.

IMO - I’d rather keep Okogie (and draft a PG next year) while not signing DLo to a (near?) max deal but that is the easiest path and would allow us to retain our rights on Tyus and Taj.

FWIW.

https://www.canishoopus.com/2019/6/23/18714491/free-agency-primer-how-the-wolves-can-land-dangelo-russell

That actually makes sense, but it leaves the Wolves short another PF.

In this deal we lose KDB but could potentially resign Taj or sign one in FA.

[Klomp]

That actually makes sense, but it leaves the Wolves short another PF.

I thought another telling remark from Rosas on draft night was that it sounded like he doesn't look at roster balance until we get down to when the final roster is set in October. How the roster is balanced in June doesn't really matter much because more changes will be made between now and the first game.

[shrink]

Canis Hoopus is not always the greatest with the CBA.

As I think I’ve demonstrated, clearing enough cap space to sign Russell is nearly impossible, or would cost too many assets to get it done since we are already over the cap.

A sign-and-trade makes some sense, but still has major flaws. Their deal is

MIN GIVES: Teague, 1st, 2nd
MIN GETS: Russell

BRK GIVES: Russell
BRK GETS: (cap space) + 2nd

Third Team GIVES: Cap Space
Third Team GETS: Teague, 1st.

If they do this deal after free agency opens (next year’s number), $19 mil of Teague doesn’t match $27.25 mil of Russell. They mention including okogie as well, and maybe KBD to match. Both players are worth much more to us than other teams.

If they do this deal before free agency opens, BRK would never agree. They don’t know if two better free agents will sign there yet, so they aren’t going to give away their rights to match until they’ve inked their stars.

And btw, if you really believe Russell is worth us giving up an expiring starter and a 1st, why wouldn’t the Third Team just cut us from the deal, and grab Russell for the same price - cap space a 2nd? Wouldn’t that be a better asset play?

[jscott]

Canis Hoopus is not always the greatest with the CBA.

As I think I’ve demonstrated, clearing enough cap space to sign Russell is nearly impossible, or would cost too many assets to get it done since we are already over the cap.

A sign-and-trade makes some sense, but still has major flaws. Their deal is

MIN GIVES: Teague, 1st, 2nd
MIN GETS: Russell

BRK GIVES: Russell
BRK GETS: (cap space) + 2nd

Third Team GIVES: Cap Space
Third Team GETS: Teague, 1st.

If they do this deal after free agency opens (next year’s number), $19 mil of Teague doesn’t match $27.25 mil of Russell. They mention including okogie as well, and maybe KBD to match. Both players are worth much more to us than other teams.

If they do this deal before free agency opens, BRK would never agree. They don’t know if two better free agents will sign there yet, so they aren’t going to give away their rights to match until they’ve inked their stars.

And btw, if you really believe Russell is worth us giving up an expiring starter and a 1st, why wouldn’t the Third Team just cut us from the deal, and grab Russell for the same price - cap space a 2nd? Wouldn’t that be a better asset play?

Thanks for pointing out the nuances of the CBA. Very helpful.

My counterpoint to “3rd team cutting us out” would be that maybe that team doesn’t want the long term cap hit or perhaps DLo just wants to sign with the Wolves and not whoever the 3rd team is.

I dunno, that’s a good point but there have been dudes (Paul, LBJ, etc?) who wanted to sign with a certain team that got dealt.

It’s not a great rebuttal and I’m not even that interested in DLo but it’s all that comes to mind.

[shrink]

The problem here is that you want to send Teague to a place where he would have the most on court value, to minimize the asset it would take to move him. Unfortunately, teams where Teague could help at PG are likely the same places where simply signing Russell for cap and a 2nd would be a better move.

I agree with you on the concept that perhaps a team would want to get Teague’s expiring over Russell so they can hit the reset button on cap space in 2020. But that has timing issues too, because teams with cap would first need time to find out if they struck out spending it this year. There are about 15 free agents they’d likely need to see go off the board, before they’d settle for expirings. However, Russell is not going to wait a few weeks for all the FA’s to sign before he signs an offer sheet, and BRK has to decide whether to match it.

[Krapinsky]

The problem here is that you want to send Teague to a place where he would have the most on court value, to minimize the asset it would take to move him. Unfortunately, teams where Teague could help at PG are likely the same places where simply signing Russell for cap and a 2nd would be a better move.

I agree with you on the concept that perhaps a team would want to get Teague’s expiring over Russell so they can hit the reset button on cap space in 2020. But that has timing issues too, because teams with cap would first need time to find out if they struck out spending it this year. There are about 15 free agents they’d likely need to see go off the board, before they’d settle for expirings. However, Russell is not going to wait a few weeks for all the FA’s to sign before he signs an offer sheet, and BRK has to decide whether to match it.

But doesn't Russell have a say in the matter? I think that's the point your missing. That "other team" can't cut us out if Russell doesn't want to play there.

[shrink]

The problem here is that you want to send Teague to a place where he would have the most on court value, to minimize the asset it would take to move him. Unfortunately, teams where Teague could help at PG are likely the same places where simply signing Russell for cap and a 2nd would be a better move.

I agree with you on the concept that perhaps a team would want to get Teague’s expiring over Russell so they can hit the reset button on cap space in 2020. But that has timing issues too, because teams with cap would first need time to find out if they struck out spending it this year. There are about 15 free agents they’d likely need to see go off the board, before they’d settle for expirings. However, Russell is not going to wait a few weeks for all the FA’s to sign before he signs an offer sheet, and BRK has to decide whether to match it.

But doesn't Russell have a say in the matter? I think that's the point your missing. That "other team" can't cut us out if Russell doesn't want to play there.

Yes, but Russell is not going to wait and turn down a max deal from some other team, hoping that MIN can convince the team with cap space to give it to us. It’s his first big free agent deal.

[Klomp]

The problem here is that you want to send Teague to a place where he would have the most on court value, to minimize the asset it would take to move him. Unfortunately, teams where Teague could help at PG are likely the same places where simply signing Russell for cap and a 2nd would be a better move.

I agree with you on the concept that perhaps a team would want to get Teague’s expiring over Russell so they can hit the reset button on cap space in 2020. But that has timing issues too, because teams with cap would first need time to find out if they struck out spending it this year. There are about 15 free agents they’d likely need to see go off the board, before they’d settle for expirings. However, Russell is not going to wait a few weeks for all the FA’s to sign before he signs an offer sheet, and BRK has to decide whether to match it.

But doesn't Russell have a say in the matter? I think that's the point your missing. That "other team" can't cut us out if Russell doesn't want to play there.

Yes, but Russell is not going to wait and turn down a max deal from some other team, waiting and hoping that MIN can convince the team with cap space to give it to us. It’s his first big free agent deal.

Depends how badly he wants to play with Towns

[shrink]

But doesn't Russell have a say in the matter? I think that's the point your missing. That "other team" can't cut us out if Russell doesn't want to play there.

Yes, but Russell is not going to wait and turn down a max deal from some other team, waiting and hoping that MIN can convince the team with cap space to give it to us. It’s his first big free agent deal.

Depends how badly he wants to play with Towns

Really? Have you ever heard of any kid looking at his first deal off rookie scale turning down the max, hoping for some longshot by a more preferred team?

We don’t have leverage here with the cap space team - they are not forced to send us cap space. We would have to find a team that was willing, AND preferred Teague and 1st to signing Russell himself, AND wasn’t waiting to see if the cap could bring in some other top free agent.

[shangrila]

The attractive part wouldn't be Teague but whatever we attach to him. Yes, Phoenix (for example) would prefer Russell to Teague but if they can't get him (don't have enough cap to sign him outright and/or he doesn't want to go there) then being able to pick up Okogie while delaying the capspace a year would be a perfectly understandable move.

As the CH guy suggests in the article, the Wolves probably already have a 3rd team lined up to take Teague (or at least have had discussions and are confident they can make a deal if necessary) so it's likely a question of talking to Russell himself and seeing how FA shakes out.

[minimus]

If we can get DLo without trading away multiple assets then Gupta and Prigioni signing will be already justified. Also as far as I remember Gupta was hired by Morey to execute CP3 trade which was a complex solution (S&T) as well. I believe that if Russell commits to play with KAT in Minnesota it will be crucial.

[shrink]

Ignoring the CBA issues of timing, this is the Russell offer I came up with. I will state up front that I don’t like Russell, and wouldn’t even give up a future 1st for the RFA. Signing him to a max gives me Wiggins deja vu

DAL GIVES: Courtney Lee, 2 2nds
DAL GETS: Teague

SAC GIVES (or some other rebuilding team): Cap space
SAC GETS: Dieng and 2020 MIN 1st

MIN GIVES: Teague, Dieng, 2020 1st
MIN GETS: Russell, Lee

BRK GIVES: Russell S&T
BRK GETS: cap space, 2 2nds

DAL gets a usable PG and dumps an unusable Lee for a pair of 2nds and $6 mil cap space.

SAC doesn’t want Russell with Fox, and gets a 1st and a usable Center since no longer interested in paying Vooch

If BRK gets their 2 elite FA’s that need that cap space, they can’t match a free agent offer, so they would lose him for nothing. Two 2nds is better than nothing, and it boosts their image with free agents to aid their players’ careers

MIN gets Russell and out of a year of Dieng for a 1st, eating a year of Lee.

[KGdaBom]

Ignoring the CBA issues of timing, this is the Russell offer I came up with. I will state up front that I don’t like Russell, and wouldn’t even give up a future 1st for the RFA. Signing him to a max gives me Wiggins deja vu

DAL GIVES: Courtney Lee, 2 2nds
DAL GETS: Teague

SAC GIVES (or some other rebuilding team): Cap space
SAC GETS: Dieng and 2020 MIN 1st

MIN GIVES: Teague, Dieng, 2020 1st
MIN GETS: Russell, Lee

BRK GIVES: Russell S&T
BRK GETS: cap space, 2 2nds

DAL gets a usable PG and dumps an unusable Lee for a pair of 2nds and $6 mil cap space.

SAC doesn’t want Russell with Fox, and gets a 1st and a usable Center since no longer interested in paying Vooch

If BRK gets their 2 elite FA’s that need that cap space, something is better than nothing, and boosts image to aid players careers

MIN gets Russell and out of a year of Dieng for a 1st, eating a year of Lee.

Sounds reasonable. If Russell gets the max that means the Wolves have three max players with one that deserves it KAT, a second that probably doesn't deserve it Russell, and one that absolutely doesn't deserve it Wiggins. Does this put us in a similar status with Washington? No supermax like Wall, but very similar.

[Dewey]

Ignoring the CBA issues of timing, this is the Russell offer I came up with. I will state up front that I don’t like Russell, and wouldn’t even give up a future 1st for the RFA. Signing him to a max gives me Wiggins deja vu

DAL GIVES: Courtney Lee, 2 2nds
DAL GETS: Teague

SAC GIVES (or some other rebuilding team): Cap space
SAC GETS: Dieng and 2020 MIN 1st

MIN GIVES: Teague, Dieng, 2020 1st
MIN GETS: Russell, Lee

BRK GIVES: Russell S&T
BRK GETS: cap space, 2 2nds

DAL gets a usable PG and dumps an unusable Lee for a pair of 2nds and $6 mil cap space.

SAC doesn’t want Russell with Fox, and gets a 1st and a usable Center since no longer interested in paying Vooch

If BRK gets their 2 elite FA’s that need that cap space, something is better than nothing, and boosts image to aid players careers

MIN gets Russell and out of a year of Dieng for a 1st, eating a year of Lee.

Sounds reasonable. If Russell gets the max that means the Wolves have three max players with one that deserves it KAT, a second that probably doesn't deserve it Russell, and one that absolutely doesn't deserve it Wiggins. Does this put us in a similar status with Washington? No supermax like Wall, but very similar.

about as good of example as there is ... Dallas give up a journeyman SG and get a guard on expiring, sac gets short-term stop gap for PF/C and a 1st for space rental, nets get cap space, and wolves get russell. This would be a massive win for Wolves upfront.

[Macwolf527]

I think Russell is the ideal player for this team and here's why. Well, let's get this out the way, definitely not for defensive reasons. However, his length as a 6'5 PG gives you some flexibility in moving him around to the SG spot and in some very rare cases even as the SF. What I really like about Russell on this team is that he provides the perfect bookend with Karl Towns. Two offensively minded players to carry your team scoring wise. Now all you need is lock down defender's from 2 -4. BAM! Okogie, Culver, and Covington, instant lock down.

This league has turned into a PG scoring league and the best defense against high scoring PG's, is your own high scoring PG. Patrick Beverly represent the very rare defensive PG with the capability to lock down PG's around the league, but at times he's an offensive liability. If I have to pick my poison, I'll take the scoring PG, with the hopes of making the other teams PG work harder on defense to minimize his effectiveness on offense. Since the Wolves are moving towards a non-switching defense, having a PG with some size comes in handy to fight through picks. We'll see a lot of show and recover on defense, and Russell's size will come in handy to drive the shooter off the 3pt line on the recover or the weak side defensive rotation. If you look up and down Brooklyn's roster, you'll notice they are top heavy with players 6'5" to 6'8". They used similar methods to hide Russell's defensive inefficiencies. What they lacked, was a interior scorer to collapse the defense, so all teams had to do was to extend the defense on them and they became one dimensional. Towns is the X-Factor in preventing that here in Minnesota. Plus, Brooklyn's players as a whole could not guard my grandma. That wouldn't be the case here with the current roster we're building.

[KGdaBom]

I think Russell is the ideal player for this team and here's why. Well, let's get this out the way, definitely not for defensive reasons. However, his length as a 6'5 PG gives you some flexibility in moving him around to the SG spot and in some very rare cases even as the SF. What I really like about Russell on this team is that he provides the perfect bookend with Karl Towns. Two offensively minded players to carry your team scoring wise. Now all you need is lock down defender's from 2 -4. BAM! Okogie, Culver, and Covington, instant lock down.

This league has turned into a PG scoring league and the best defense against high scoring PG's, is your own high scoring PG. Patrick Beverly represent the very rare defensive PG with the capability to lock down PG's around the league, but at times he's an offensive liability. If I have to pick my poison, I'll take the scoring PG, with the hopes of making the other teams PG work harder on defense to minimize his effectiveness on offense. Since the Wolves are moving towards a non-switching defense, having a PG with some size comes in handy to fight through picks. We'll see a lot of show and recover on defense, and Russell's size will come in handy to drive the shooter off the 3pt line on the recover or the weak side defensive rotation. If you look up and down Brooklyn's roster, you'll notice they are top heavy with players 6'5" to 6'8". They used similar methods to hide Russell's defensive inefficiencies. What they lacked, was a interior scorer to collapse the defense, so all teams had to do was to extend the defense on them and they became one dimensional. Towns is the X-Factor in preventing that here in Minnesota. Plus, Brooklyn's players as a whole could not guard my grandma. That wouldn't be the case here with the current roster we're building.

Regarding PG scoring league. I remember the term used to be shoot first PG. During this draft I have become familiar with to me a new term. Points Guard. Has that been around for a while?

[shrink]

Maybe this is obvious, but somebody reassure me that signing Russell to the max isn’t adding the Wiggins deal all over?

In Russell, I see a young guy that performed below his lottery pick expectations, produces offensive counting stats without great efficiency, doesn’t defend, and you hope that with his youth, he grows to be worth the max deal.

[KGdaBom]

Maybe this is obvious, but somebody reassure me that signing Russell to the max isn’t adding the Wiggins deal all over?

In Russell, I see a young guy that performed below his lottery pick expectations, produces offensive counting stats without great efficiency, doesn’t defend, and you hope that with his youth, he grows to be worth the max deal.

With Russell I am not sold on bringing him in. He has had one good season. If we have to max him is it worth it?