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Al Horford

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Re: Al Horford 

Post#61 » by simonbampfield » Mon Jun 24, 2019 11:16 am

The reason I can get behind Horford coming here (and essentially signing Barnes) is that they will know their role. The number 1 thing the FO needs to do when signing players this off season is not to bury a player like Fox. He needs to be at worst the 3rd option. Bagley will be the first option very soon, Hield #2, Fox #3 and then you have Bogs, Barnes and Horford in no specific order, and they would largely be happy with that. If we grab a Vuc he will expect to be either the #1 or #2 option. He is good enough to do it as well but next year could be the 2nd year where the young guys are given the opportunity to flourish into the stars they promise to become and perhaps a vet like Horford is one that gives us a positional upgrade without taking the offensive focus. Same can be said with Barnes.
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Re: Al Horford 

Post#62 » by Kings2016 » Mon Jun 24, 2019 6:54 pm

bleeds_purple wrote:
Kings2016 wrote:Why are we as Kings fan thinking so small here. Why In the heck would the Kings want a older Al Horford that’s doesn’t change or improve you with this young roster and the pace we play at think about it. Horford trying to run with these dudes. Vucevic, Harris and Middleton are improvements that could get you to the playoffs for sure maybe further depending on how good Bagley is.... btw everyone thinks Harris is a power forward he is more of a small forward in a power forwards body.. he can play the SF with Bagley at the PF .. they have enough cap space if they leave the Harrison Barnes thing alone to get both Vucevic at around 4 years 164 million and also Harris 4 years 164 max contracts that would improve your team and make you a contender in the west( PG Fox, SG Heild, SF Harris, PF Bagley C Vucevic) .. its not time to sit and wait until next year .. they have a great opportunity now and they need to do whatever they can to get it done .. Cauley Stein you let go or offer the qualifying offer just to make sure you can get something in return for him in a sign and trade.


You're assuming that Harris will sign here. I think that's a pretty poor assumption.

Horford is older but he's more of a proven commodity as compared to Vuc and you are paying the latter an extra $50M. That's the difference between being capped out after bringing back Barnes and signing one of the Cs and having ~$10M in cap space to fill out the roster with a quality backup PG or additional wing depth.



I'm not assuming he'd sign here. I'm saying they need to make every attempt to go after the guys I mentioned. I would never fault them if those guys don't sign here. I just want them to think big and go after them. As for Horford i still say he doesnt fit the up and down high pace style the Kings run. I believe Vucevic is a better fit and he is a a very good rebounder. Who's to say he will want the ball a lot if he isn't the only scorer. Maybe he needed to be the 1st option cause he had no choice with Orlando. He may play better in Sac because the pressure would be far less with the help he would have here. Have you heard of sharing the ball. The Kings of the early 2000's prided themselves on this. Harris is just a better player than Barnes is in my opinion and i feel Rather than spend money on Barnes you go big or go home here with theses guys. The only way to change the perception of free agents not wanting to play here is to go after guys and they start signing here. Btw Al Horford is 33 years old guys.. Vucevic is 28 years old.
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Re: Al Horford 

Post#63 » by enderwilson » Mon Jun 24, 2019 7:00 pm

bleeds_purple wrote:
Kings2016 wrote:I again say Al Horford doesn’t fit the style of play we have at all.. our pace does not suit his game. Vucevic just averaged 20.1pts 12rebs and made the all star team and some of you think Horford is a better option? I don’t see that at all. They have a chance to improve and if they are serious about winning they try .. I know there aren’t guarantees on who sign but they need to try all out for these guys. Horford though naw doesn’t fit the style of play.


How does he not fit? He can trail the break and hit top of the key threes (his preferred spot) wide open all day. Guys like Horford fit every system. His only problem is age. If you sign him past 2 years you are pretty much paying a bench player ~$25M for whatever comes after that. Have to decide if that's worth it to make a push for next season and continue building a winning culture. Its a good debate.


The counter argument would be why would we want to get Vuc to pay him more while he fits our team even less? Sure he could probably run more than Al, but as others have commented, we don't need a player like Vuc to come in to play and be paid like the primary scorer. We already have our primary, secondary and tertiary playmakers on the roster under rookie contracts. We need the complementary players that will elevate the team's foundation and advance our abilities on both ends of the court. Getting both Barnes and Horford this season and into the not to distant future would be a fantastic offseason.

If the concern is that this team is thinking "too small" then why are we stopping at Vuc and Harris? Why aren't we going after Kawahi then? We have the money to at least make a tempting offer. Signing Vuc and Harris each to the max for the next 4 years screws our ability to retain our current top three playmakers when they come off their rookie contracts. Al and Harrison are the better option as they have a greater potential to fix this team's problems without potentially creating any additional ones for the future.
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Re: Al Horford 

Post#64 » by Kings2016 » Mon Jun 24, 2019 7:10 pm

enderwilson wrote:
bleeds_purple wrote:
Kings2016 wrote:I again say Al Horford doesn’t fit the style of play we have at all.. our pace does not suit his game. Vucevic just averaged 20.1pts 12rebs and made the all star team and some of you think Horford is a better option? I don’t see that at all. They have a chance to improve and if they are serious about winning they try .. I know there aren’t guarantees on who sign but they need to try all out for these guys. Horford though naw doesn’t fit the style of play.


How does he not fit? He can trail the break and hit top of the key threes (his preferred spot) wide open all day. Guys like Horford fit every system. His only problem is age. If you sign him past 2 years you are pretty much paying a bench player ~$25M for whatever comes after that. Have to decide if that's worth it to make a push for next season and continue building a winning culture. Its a good debate.


The counter argument would be why would we want to get Vuc to pay him more while he fits our team even less? Sure he could probably run more than Al, but as others have commented, we don't need a player like Vuc to come in to play and be paid like the primary scorer. We already have our primary, secondary and tertiary playmakers on the roster under rookie contracts. We need the complementary players that will elevate the team's foundation and advance our abilities on both ends of the court. Getting both Barnes and Horford this season and into the not to distant future would be a fantastic offseason.

If the concern is that this team is thinking "too small" then why are we stopping at Vuc and Harris? Why aren't we going after Kawahi then? We have the money to at least make a tempting offer. Signing Vuc and Harris each to the max for the next 4 years screws our ability to retain our current top three playmakers when they come off their rookie contracts. Al and Harrison are the better option as they have a greater potential to fix this team's problems without potentially creating any additional ones for the future.



Your concerns about the cap aren't necessarily true. Bagley is under his rookie deal for 4 years same length of time as any max contract for Vucevic and Harris . Fox still has 3 years on his deal . Hield is up in 2.. the cap also increases. There is also options to make trades with valuable pieces to get from under money. Yes i would make a run at Kawhi even though he wouldn't sign here because it sends a signal that the Kings are serious about competing .. they have to try every avenue to make the jump in this Conference. Thats what its about.
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Re: Al Horford 

Post#65 » by codydaze » Mon Jun 24, 2019 8:10 pm

Kings2016 wrote:
enderwilson wrote:
bleeds_purple wrote:
How does he not fit? He can trail the break and hit top of the key threes (his preferred spot) wide open all day. Guys like Horford fit every system. His only problem is age. If you sign him past 2 years you are pretty much paying a bench player ~$25M for whatever comes after that. Have to decide if that's worth it to make a push for next season and continue building a winning culture. Its a good debate.


The counter argument would be why would we want to get Vuc to pay him more while he fits our team even less? Sure he could probably run more than Al, but as others have commented, we don't need a player like Vuc to come in to play and be paid like the primary scorer. We already have our primary, secondary and tertiary playmakers on the roster under rookie contracts. We need the complementary players that will elevate the team's foundation and advance our abilities on both ends of the court. Getting both Barnes and Horford this season and into the not to distant future would be a fantastic offseason.

If the concern is that this team is thinking "too small" then why are we stopping at Vuc and Harris? Why aren't we going after Kawahi then? We have the money to at least make a tempting offer. Signing Vuc and Harris each to the max for the next 4 years screws our ability to retain our current top three playmakers when they come off their rookie contracts. Al and Harrison are the better option as they have a greater potential to fix this team's problems without potentially creating any additional ones for the future.



Your concerns about the cap aren't necessarily true. Bagley is under his rookie deal for 4 years same length of time as any max contract for Vucevic and Harris . Fox still has 3 years on his deal . Hield is up in 2.. the cap also increases. There is also options to make trades with valuable pieces to get from under money. Yes i would make a run at Kawhi even though he wouldn't sign here because it sends a signal that the Kings are serious about competing .. they have to try every avenue to make the jump in this Conference. Thats what its about.


Those guys actually have one less year on their deals. Buddy is up for an extension this year as the upcoming season is the final of his rookie deal.
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Re: Al Horford 

Post#66 » by Kings2016 » Mon Jun 24, 2019 8:26 pm

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Re: Al Horford 

Post#67 » by KF10 » Mon Jun 24, 2019 9:55 pm

I hope we are the rumored team that will give Horford the $$$ contract.
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Re: Al Horford 

Post#68 » by OGSactownballer » Mon Jun 24, 2019 10:57 pm

Kings2016 wrote:
enderwilson wrote:
bleeds_purple wrote:
How does he not fit? He can trail the break and hit top of the key threes (his preferred spot) wide open all day. Guys like Horford fit every system. His only problem is age. If you sign him past 2 years you are pretty much paying a bench player ~$25M for whatever comes after that. Have to decide if that's worth it to make a push for next season and continue building a winning culture. Its a good debate.


The counter argument would be why would we want to get Vuc to pay him more while he fits our team even less? Sure he could probably run more than Al, but as others have commented, we don't need a player like Vuc to come in to play and be paid like the primary scorer. We already have our primary, secondary and tertiary playmakers on the roster under rookie contracts. We need the complementary players that will elevate the team's foundation and advance our abilities on both ends of the court. Getting both Barnes and Horford this season and into the not to distant future would be a fantastic offseason.

If the concern is that this team is thinking "too small" then why are we stopping at Vuc and Harris? Why aren't we going after Kawahi then? We have the money to at least make a tempting offer. Signing Vuc and Harris each to the max for the next 4 years screws our ability to retain our current top three playmakers when they come off their rookie contracts. Al and Harrison are the better option as they have a greater potential to fix this team's problems without potentially creating any additional ones for the future.



Your concerns about the cap aren't necessarily true. Bagley is under his rookie deal for 4 years same length of time as any max contract for Vucevic and Harris . Fox still has 3 years on his deal . Hield is up in 2.. the cap also increases. There is also options to make trades with valuable pieces to get from under money. Yes i would make a run at Kawhi even though he wouldn't sign here because it sends a signal that the Kings are serious about competing .. they have to try every avenue to make the jump in this Conference. Thats what its about.


This is a great fan statement but a truly unrealistic POV for an actual NBA general manager.
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Re: Al Horford 

Post#69 » by City of Trees » Tue Jun 25, 2019 3:24 am

KF10 wrote:I hope we are the rumored team that will give Horford the $$$ contract.
Horford at $28M and Barnes at $20M would leave roughly $15M in cap to fill out the bench. You're bargain shopping at that point.
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Re: Al Horford 

Post#70 » by Call Me Geoff » Tue Jun 25, 2019 3:29 am

City of Trees wrote:
KF10 wrote:I hope we are the rumored team that will give Horford the $$$ contract.
Horford at $28M and Barnes at $20M would leave roughly $15M in cap to fill out the bench. You're bargain shopping at that point.


Actually, a 4 yr deal starting at $15 per escalated might be enough to get Brogdon. Which would be incredible. An off-season add of Horford, Barnes and Brogdon would be a big step up the Western Conference ladder.
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Re: Al Horford 

Post#71 » by City of Trees » Tue Jun 25, 2019 3:34 am

Call Me Geoff wrote:
City of Trees wrote:
KF10 wrote:I hope we are the rumored team that will give Horford the $$$ contract.
Horford at $28M and Barnes at $20M would leave roughly $15M in cap to fill out the bench. You're bargain shopping at that point.


Actually, a 4 yr deal starting at $15 per escalated might be enough to get Brogdon. Which would be incredible. An off-season add of Horford, Barnes and Brogdon would be a big step up the Western Conference ladder.
Buddy is due for an extension soon so you need to account for the super team growing up.

Horford and Barnes at 4 years each should eliminate the chances of another large deal.
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Re: Al Horford 

Post#72 » by becorz » Tue Jun 25, 2019 4:26 am

I think I have talked myself into the Kings signing Horford, assuming they resign Barnes.

I think Horford can be that veteran piece that transforms the Kings from a collection of young guys to a team with a veteran leader. Think the 98 Kings. That team had Chris Webber who had been traded here partially due to character concerns. They had two pretty good rookies (Williams and Peja) coming in to the NBA. They had Corliss Williamson who kind of was used to being one of the best players on the team. Vlade come in and was the veteran that helped teach that team how to be good. Everyone on those teams held Vlade in high regard. Plus, 30 year old Vlade was still pretty good. I think that if the Kings go the Horford route, this is what they are looking for.

A similar comp kind of would be Andre Igouodala to the Warriors. When he went there, he wasn't averaging 10 points per game anymore. But no one is saying that is a bad signing by the Warriors.

It is also helpful that the Kings have Giles waiting in the wings and ready to play big minutes.

If the Kings sign Horford, I have talked myself into it
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Re: Al Horford 

Post#73 » by bleeds_purple » Tue Jun 25, 2019 6:32 am

City of Trees wrote:
KF10 wrote:I hope we are the rumored team that will give Horford the $$$ contract.
Horford at $28M and Barnes at $20M would leave roughly $15M in cap to fill out the bench. You're bargain shopping at that point.


4/60 for Morris!
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Re: Al Horford 

Post#74 » by bleeds_purple » Tue Jun 25, 2019 6:35 am

City of Trees wrote:
Call Me Geoff wrote:
City of Trees wrote:Horford at $28M and Barnes at $20M would leave roughly $15M in cap to fill out the bench. You're bargain shopping at that point.


Actually, a 4 yr deal starting at $15 per escalated might be enough to get Brogdon. Which would be incredible. An off-season add of Horford, Barnes and Brogdon would be a big step up the Western Conference ladder.
Buddy is due for an extension soon so you need to account for the super team growing up.

Horford and Barnes at 4 years each should eliminate the chances of another large deal.


You're assuming we wouldn't go into the tax to bring back our guys. If that were actually true that would be super depressing. If you wanna make something real this off-season is the one chance to really do it. Got to use all your cap space until its gone and never to return.
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Re: Al Horford 

Post#75 » by bleeds_purple » Tue Jun 25, 2019 6:37 am

becorz wrote:I think I have talked myself into the Kings signing Horford, assuming they resign Barnes.

I think Horford can be that veteran piece that transforms the Kings from a collection of young guys to a team with a veteran leader. Think the 98 Kings. That team had Chris Webber who had been traded here partially due to character concerns. They had two pretty good rookies (Williams and Peja) coming in to the NBA. They had Corliss Williamson who kind of was used to being one of the best players on the team. Vlade come in and was the veteran that helped teach that team how to be good. Everyone on those teams held Vlade in high regard. Plus, 30 year old Vlade was still pretty good. I think that if the Kings go the Horford route, this is what they are looking for.

A similar comp kind of would be Andre Igouodala to the Warriors. When he went there, he wasn't averaging 10 points per game anymore. But no one is saying that is a bad signing by the Warriors.

It is also helpful that the Kings have Giles waiting in the wings and ready to play big minutes.

If the Kings sign Horford, I have talked myself into it


Yeah. It also comes down to alternatives. If your options is overpay Horford or bring in guys that don't change anything then just get him and run with it.
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Re: Al Horford 

Post#76 » by enderwilson » Tue Jun 25, 2019 2:43 pm

Kings2016 wrote:
Your concerns about the cap aren't necessarily true. Bagley is under his rookie deal for 4 years same length of time as any max contract for Vucevic and Harris . Fox still has 3 years on his deal . Hield is up in 2.. the cap also increases. There is also options to make trades with valuable pieces to get from under money. Yes i would make a run at Kawhi even though he wouldn't sign here because it sends a signal that the Kings are serious about competing .. they have to try every avenue to make the jump in this Conference. Thats what its about.


The cap might go up, but how much it goes up really depends on the market. In 2016 it made a big jump of more than $20 million. But that's the exception. The preceding years from 2008-13 the cap actually decreased. On average we might expect the cap to go up 5-10 million a year. Considering we'll need to offer nearly the max (>$10 million) to each of our players coming off of rookie contracts, you have to have a plan for future flexibility and anticipate what the cap will look like. If you're offering 4-year max contracts to two free agents then they better be all stars that are guaranteed to fit the needs of the team going forward.
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Re: Al Horford 

Post#77 » by City of Trees » Tue Jun 25, 2019 3:29 pm

bleeds_purple wrote:
City of Trees wrote:
Call Me Geoff wrote:
Actually, a 4 yr deal starting at $15 per escalated might be enough to get Brogdon. Which would be incredible. An off-season add of Horford, Barnes and Brogdon would be a big step up the Western Conference ladder.
Buddy is due for an extension soon so you need to account for the super team growing up.

Horford and Barnes at 4 years each should eliminate the chances of another large deal.


You're assuming we wouldn't go into the tax to bring back our guys. If that were actually true that would be super depressing. If you wanna make something real this off-season is the one chance to really do it. Got to use all your cap space until its gone and never to return.
The tax pool will be new territory for Vivek's ownership group and it will be interesting to see what decisions they make, especially if the Kings haven't reached the playoffs. You can't be a non playoff team paying Lux tax. Horrible look for your business.
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Re: Al Horford 

Post#78 » by Kings2016 » Tue Jun 25, 2019 6:15 pm

(Horford)Dude is 33 years old man and we are talking a 4 year deal .. I just don't get this at all. If you don't want Vucevic why not trade for Clint Capela .. or see if you can find away to get him.. I'm not adverse to giving up Bogdanovic for him .. he(Capela) has 4 years let on his deal at 16,896,552 this year $18,000,000 next $19,103,448 in 21/22 and $20,206,896 in 22/23 and he fits what we do... Bogie is making $8,529,386 this year so you'd lose 8.3 million in cap space with the trade but your still have 53 million before any deal with Barnes. You'd have a young defensive beast at center then you can go get a Middleton or what ever you wanted to replace Bogie. But this Horford stuff is crazy to me .. You don't give 33 years old centers 4 year deals.
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Re: Al Horford 

Post#79 » by Kings2016 » Tue Jun 25, 2019 6:33 pm

I'm sure it may take more than Bogie to make the deal since you have the rights to Cauley -Stein you can sign and trade him as part of the deal for Capela . Bogie and Cauley- Stein for Capela . Just trying to think outside of the box to get a Center that will go well with Bagley and is young and fits the style of play while providing defense in the middle. This Still gives you options with cap space also.
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Re: Al Horford 

Post#80 » by codydaze » Tue Jun 25, 2019 8:12 pm

Kings2016 wrote:(Horford)Dude is 33 years old man and we are talking a 4 year deal .. I just don't get this at all. If you don't want Vucevic why not trade for Clint Capela .. or see if you can find away to get him.. I'm not adverse to giving up Bogdanovic for him .. he(Capela) has 4 years let on his deal at 16,896,552 this year $18,000,000 next $19,103,448 in 21/22 and $20,206,896 in 22/23 and he fits what we do... Bogie is making $8,529,386 this year so you'd lose 8.3 million in cap space with the trade but your still have 53 million before any deal with Barnes. You'd have a young defensive beast at center then you can go get a Middleton or what ever you wanted to replace Bogie. But this Horford stuff is crazy to me .. You don't give 33 years old centers 4 year deals.


Well ideally if you were to offer Horford a 4/112 deal, you would front load it so his yearly salary would go 31/29/27/25 and his game should age gracefully. He's not a guy that relies on his athleticism but he'll always be able to stretch the floor and facilitate out of the high post which is what you want to pair with Bagley in the front court.

Pairing Bagley and Capela will force one of them to limit what they are most effective at since Capela is not going to be offering any spacing on the offensive side of the floor. Capela is most effective in the pick and roll game but that's also what you want Bagley doing so when running the Fox/Bagley pick and roll you would force Capela to stay in the dunker's spot but that just brings another defender into the paint. Horford is also an excellent defender as well so it's not like Capela is a much better defender than him.

To your sign and trade point in the other post, you can't attach other players to a sign and trade as far as I know. Any sign and trade deal with Willie would have to be for him alone, you couldn't add Bogi or any other pieces to what we send out.

Edit: Another point I forgot to mention about Capela is we've seen in two playoffs straight now how he becomes a liability on the floor when you need as much space as you can get, especially with the type of offense we'd be running. You want as many shooters as you can have on the floor and that's just not something he'll ever be able to add to his game.

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